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A Tasteful Nude posted:I mean - the dude's testimony singlehandedly sent a kid to away to rot for the rest of his life, and we know that he lied about many details of that testimony. Because like, admits that he lied.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:37
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Adnan does not go to jail without Jay's testimony.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:48
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I think it's hard to argue otherwise, yeah.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:56
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I mean yeah - those pieces of evidence are pretty compelling. But like - you can't cross examine "the nisha call." A guy said someone else should go to jail forever. The things he's saying should be scrutinized, especially when things like "the nisha call" are only compelling in the context of the narrative Jay provided. I'm not saying the case against Adnan is bad or whatever - I'm just saying it's a little weird to be like "why would we EVER look twice at a state's witness who lies how RUDE!!! did we even question the victims MOM the same way?!!?!" Dude put himself out there to avoid jail for admittedly burying the poo poo out of a lifeless murdered teen girl to (at least) hide someone else's murder. He said what he said in public courtroom, and he got what he wanted (no jail time for admittedly burying a teen girl's freshly murdered body). He's also admittedly lying about details of it. I don't really feel so bad wondering about those details.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:57
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^^^^exactly. It all hinges on Jay. No other evidence corroborates or connects Adnan specifically to the other pieces. Read the third interview about Jay and SK. Jay is really blowing up his credibility here. Here is a professional journalist telling you in black and white what is going or is not going on and you're going to call her a liar. I don't think he "gets" professional media. They generally don't make poo poo up and certainly don't use Reddit as an avenue for detective work as a primary source. For him to say "She's lying and trying to make me look bad through the internet" shows that he is just not on the same level here. I dunno what to believe anymore 
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Jan 1, 2015 22:59
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Shitshow posted:Adnan does not go to jail without Jay's testimony. He does
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Jan 1, 2015 23:01
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Adnan also does not go to jail if he doesn't kill his ex girl friend
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Jan 1, 2015 23:02
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African AIDS cum posted:He does
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Jan 1, 2015 23:16
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FlamingLiberal posted:Based on what? The cell phone records and that other call are not enough for a 1st degree murder conviction. In your opinion. I disagree.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:19
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African AIDS cum posted:He does You think? Jay's testimony told the story and confirmed the cell records. Would the cell records and no physical evidence have been enough to consist? Lack of an alibi isn't enough to convict. I don't think Adnan is innocent, I'm convinced he did it but without Jay what evidence persists?
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Jan 1, 2015 23:22
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I think they could build a case based on motive, the note, Adnan's lack of alibi/memory, the unnamed Muslim? who told them to look into Adnan, the phone records, etc. quite easily in fact
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Jan 1, 2015 23:25
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Daikatana Ritsu posted:In what world do you live in where the victim's family and the convicts family is peripheral?
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Jan 1, 2015 23:25
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A Tasteful Nude posted:I mean yeah - those pieces of evidence are pretty compelling. But like - you can't cross examine "the nisha call." A guy said someone else should go to jail forever. The things he's saying should be scrutinized, especially when things like "the nisha call" are only compelling in the context of the narrative Jay provided. Well like I said, it's fine to wonder this and wonder that. But you folks are flipflopping on Koenig's role in this whole thing to better suit whatever point you're currently trying to make. Is she a journalist or an investigative reporter or just a radio host or what? You can't even come to a consensus on that. Maybe Adnan should have had a better lawyer. Jay's testimony is ancient history. The defense had plenty of opportunities to counter at the time and failed to do so convincingly.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:37
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African AIDS cum posted:I think they could build a case based on motive, the note, Adnan's lack of alibi/memory, the unnamed Muslim? who told them to look into Adnan, the phone records, etc. quite easily in fact Build a case, yes. But you've stated a couple times now that Adnan would be convicted without Jay's testimony. Do murder convictions happen often without any physical evidence, especially one this up and close and personal? I'm genuinely curious if anyone has an idea.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:40
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Many convictions actually do happen with 0 physical evidence - most jurisdictions have a standard jury instruction (what the judge basically reads to a jury before they go decide, to inform them about the applicable law and how they need to decide) along the lines of: "circumstantial evidence and direct evidence can have exactly the same weight, based upon what YOU decide is credible, but just because something isn't direct proof doesn't mean it's not believable" A big part of modern trial prep for prosecutors is dealing with the "CSI effect," which is their justifiable fear of losing a jury because they don't have the TV style last minute DNA proof. In real life, police departments are overworked and rarely have access to scientific proof, and I completely agree that you CAN convict someone without such evidence - it happens everyday, even moreso 15-20 years ago. Anime name teardrop face av guy, I mostly agree with you: this case is basically Adnan-should-have-had-a-better-lawyer. Anyone with tangental knowledge of the law, good public speaking skills and some understanding of theme-crafting trial strategy probably could have gotten him acquitted, with some luck. But he wasn't acquitted. That's why this case is so interesting to me: dude's conviction wasn't even THAT awful, compared to some of what happens every single loving day in any American city, but it DOES leave a lot of open questions, and most of them arise of this dude Jay's 6-7 stories about what happened. I think a lot of the speculation about Jay is dumb, because it's hard to remember details exactly right and he had other understandable motives (black kid selling pot in baltimore in the 90s), but I'm not all that sympathetic toward the guy in response to outrageous inquiries directed toward him because he helped burry a teen girl at best and is lying about something. Oh no sorry he has to answer the amount of questions that should technically be directed at murder cases that happen every loving day but just aren't asked.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:14
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Without Jay's testimony, the Nisha call is just a phone call Adnan (may have) made to someone he was flirting with. It's only relevant specifically because it was a call that only Adnan would have made at a time when Jay said they were together disposing of Hae's body. Without Jay's testimony, the cell tower records don't really say much. They're only relevant to the degree that they corroborate Jay's account(s) of events (and that corroboration isn't exactly absolute.) Hell, as far as I remember, Jay's the only person not saying that Adnan had largely moved on from his relationship with Hae, and certainly the only one claiming that he wanted to make her pay for breaking his heart or whatever. Without Jay, I'm not sure Adnan even gets charged, much less convicted. Daikatana Ritsu posted:Maybe Adnan should have had a better lawyer. This is undeniably the case. Or, specifically, he should have had the hotshot best-of-the-best lawyer that his family thought they were hiring, as opposed to the lawyer who was terminally ill and falling to bits both personally and professionally. As weak as the prosecution's case was, the defense's case was weaker.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:29
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Not to mention with Jay's interview and 'this is the real story this time', all the phone record 'evidence' that corroborated his original story goes out the window.
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Jan 2, 2015 02:04
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docbeard posted:This is undeniably the case. Or, specifically, he should have had the hotshot best-of-the-best lawyer that his family thought they were hiring, as opposed to the lawyer who was terminally ill and falling to bits both personally and professionally. As weak as the prosecution's case was, the defense's case was weaker.
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Jan 2, 2015 02:16
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redcheval posted:Not to mention with Jay's interview and 'this is the real story this time', all the phone record 'evidence' that corroborated his original story goes out the window.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:00
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I thought I was used to how milquetoast the SA forums were these days, but I was not prepared for pages of "that guy who admittedly helped to bury a murder victim (i.e., cover it up) should not suffer the INJUSTICE of a reporter unexpectedly arriving at his house." Jesus Christ, you pansies.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:26
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Why cookie Rocket posted:I thought I was used to how milquetoast the SA forums were these days, but I was not prepared for pages of "that guy who admittedly helped to bury a murder victim (i.e., cover it up) should not suffer the INJUSTICE of a reporter unexpectedly arriving at his house." Jesus Christ, you pansies. Seriously, SK had every right to do what she did. Part of being a journalist is doing exactly what she did.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:43
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Hey, you're really tough guys and all but I don't think that's what I was saying.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:54
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To a goon there is no greater injustice than the affront of being forced to speak to another human being, face to face.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:56
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Daikatana Ritsu posted:Hey, you're really tough guys and all but I don't think that's what I was saying. Lol yes it was. You kept quoting and misquoting me about it.
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Jan 2, 2015 04:43
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Daikatana Ritsu posted:Hey, you're really tough guys and all but I don't think that's what I was saying. So are you hideously bad at communicating or backpedaling?
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Jan 2, 2015 04:57
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Jastiger posted:Lol yes it was. You kept quoting and misquoting me about it. Misquoting you? I was responding to you. Sorry if you cannot have an adult conversation. Why cookie Rocket posted:So are you hideously bad at communicating or backpedaling? I'm neither of those things, actually.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:02
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Why do you think Jay has to say anything to anyone? He was involved with something 15 years ago where he he plead guilty. He's not facing any charges now. Because Sarah Koenig is a reporter doing a podcast that means he should have to talk to her? I can't even imagine how disrupting this is to this guys life, 15 years later he's supposed to be answer everyone's questions so places like this and reddit (as much as you pretend they aren't the same they really are, we just pay to post here) can speculate WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
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Jan 2, 2015 05:06
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Why do you think Jay has to say anything to anyone? He was involved with something 15 years ago where he he plead guilty. He's not facing any charges now. Because Sarah Koenig is a reporter doing a podcast that means he should have to talk to her? I can't even imagine how disrupting this is to this guys life, 15 years later he's supposed to be answer everyone's questions so places like this and reddit (as much as you pretend they aren't the same they really are, we just pay to post here) can speculate WHAT REALLY HAPPENED? I'm interpreting what they're saying as he doesn't HAVE to but he shouldn't feel so bewildered or take it as such an affront that people would ask questions.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:19
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Why do you think Jay has to say anything to anyone? He was involved with something 15 years ago where he he plead guilty. He's not facing any charges now. Because Sarah Koenig is a reporter doing a podcast that means he should have to talk to her? I can't even imagine how disrupting this is to this guys life, 15 years later he's supposed to be answer everyone's questions so places like this and reddit (as much as you pretend they aren't the same they really are, we just pay to post here) can speculate WHAT REALLY HAPPENED? If he didn't want to deal with it, he could have simply told her to gently caress off. And again, this is a person who tried to help a murderer get away with it, and never served a day in jail, so a little optional disruption is no big deal. No matter how in the mood to whiteknight you guys are.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:31
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Jay let what was essentially a kid rot in the ground for six weeks without telling anyone and didn't serve a day in jail. He deserves worse than he's getting.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:33
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he dosn't have to say anything to anybody but also the internet dosnt have to be nice and assume the best or whatever half the concept of this podcast is like "let's dig down into the details of a fifteen year old murder" - there's all kinds of problems with that and the whole concept is pretty hosed and disruptive to the people who actually dealt with the real life murder but here in this murder podcast discussion thread we're already knee deep in that poo poo and the whole look what you've DONE to Jay for SHAME thing is just silly at best the dude helped bury a dead girl, i'm not gonna go stalk the guy and I understand why being reminded about your role in a murder would be upsetting to a person but also i'm not gonna shame myself for being like "hunh whys he lying" for thirty minutes a week while im walking to work
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Jan 2, 2015 05:35
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Kelly posted:Jay let what was essentially a kid rot in the ground for six weeks without telling anyone and didn't serve a day in jail. He deserves worse than he's getting.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:37
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FlamingLiberal posted:Didn't he also just claim that he knew beforehand that this girl was going to die and did nothing? Yup. In every version he's told, he knew ahead of time.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:45
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Why cookie Rocket posted:If he didn't want to deal with it, he could have simply told her to gently caress off. And again, this is a person who tried to help a murderer get away with it, and never served a day in jail, so a little optional disruption is no big deal. No matter how in the mood to whiteknight you guys are. This is also a guy who put a murderer in jail for life. Goes both ways.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:46
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Kelly posted:Yup. In every version he's told, he knew ahead of time. Hearing a 17 year old saying their going to kill someone isn't knowing about a murder ahead of time. Just because Adnan did kill her doesn't really mean jay's at fault for not going to the cops the second he heard him say that. That's ridiculous. Also so what Jay didn't serve any time in jail? He was found guilty of his charges and got probation. Is he supposed to request time in prison or something? I thought the Internet hated the very idea of American prisons.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:54
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:This is also a guy who put a murderer in jail for life. Goes both ways. So if I push you down the stairs but then call 911, it's even stevens. Got it.
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Jan 2, 2015 06:00
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Hearing a 17 year old saying their going to kill someone isn't knowing about a murder ahead of time. Just because Adnan did kill her doesn't really mean jay's at fault for not going to the cops the second he heard him say that. That's ridiculous. - Adnan told Jay he was going to kill Hae. - Adnan killed Hae. - Jay knew Adnan was going to kill Hae before he actually did it. It is absolutely Jay's fault for not telling an "adult" what he heard. If someone I barely knew (as Jay tells it) told me they were going to kill someone I would have told an adult or the police...or someone who could help. But that's because I'm a normal, well-adjusted person and not a criminal like Jay. Good to see where you fall. 
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Jan 2, 2015 06:05
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I think, in terms of assembling her story, Koenig had to make every effort to interview Jay. It's been a while since I've listened to that episode, but wasn't this basically her last-ditch attempt to communicate with him at all? As in, she hadn't even been able to get in touch with him so he could decline an interview? Whatever else he is, he is, aside from Adnan, the most important living person in this case, Of course she had to try to talk to him. Whether she had to try quite as hard as she did, in the specific ways that she did, I don't know. So the question ultimately becomes that of whether Jay's privacy (and his family's privacy) is more or less important than Koenig's desire to investigate and report on a 15-year-old murder. And I think you can make credible arguments either way. I'm not really sure which side of it I come down on. I mostly feel bad for his family. Someone on the internet is going to be horrible to them sooner or later, and they, at least, did nothing to deserve it. I don't think the bad behavior of internet scum is something that can be laid at Koenig's doorstep, of course. Kelly posted:If someone I barely knew (as Jay tells it) told me they were going to kill someone I would have told an adult or the police...or someone who could help. But that's because I'm a normal, well-adjusted person and not a criminal like Jay. I, too, don't live in a culture where "I'm going to kill X" is, like 99% of the time, a hyberbolic expression that means "I am angry at X" used by people who do not go on to commit murder later.
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Jan 2, 2015 06:10
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docbeard posted:I mostly feel bad for his family. Someone on the internet is going to be horrible to them sooner or later, and they, at least, did nothing to deserve it. I don't think the bad behavior of internet scum is something that can be laid at Koenig's doorstep, of course. I'm going to say it again: if someone I barely knew, which is how Jay describes the relationship, told me they were going to kill their ex-girlfriend I think at that age I'd tell someone. This wasn't casual banter between two friends - according to Jay he barely knew Adnan. To your other point: someone is indeed going to harass his wife or even worse his poor kids.
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Jan 2, 2015 06:17
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Why cookie Rocket posted:So if I push you down the stairs but then call 911, it's even stevens. Got it. Goons never not making poor analogies
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Jan 2, 2015 07:11
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