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Volkerball posted:Not really. A frontier is a vast, unexplored expanse that you are among the first to explore, which West Bank is not. They aren't moving there for adventure or to find a new way to strike it rich. They're just moving there so Palestinians can't. Not very frontiersmanlike. More like Invaders than Frontiersman. Or Colonists.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:59
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Colonist is good.
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Jan 2, 2015 19:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not really, they have connotations of wild days, lots of alcohol, and the enduring spirit of American can-do attitude. For American Zionists Settlers has no real negative connotation either though. There's no need for rebranding for them and the audience who is going to have a problem with settlers is going to have those same problems with Frontiersmen. Volkerball posted:Not really. A frontier is a vast, unexplored expanse that you are among the first to explore, which West Bank is not. They aren't moving there for adventure or to find a new way to strike it rich. They're just moving there so Palestinians can't. Not very frontiersmanlike. Haven't you heard? Zionist colonists made the barren desert the Palestinians were (weren't?) living in bloom. Except when it comes to demanding more military aid from the US the Israeli propaganda industry likes to pretend Palestinians don't exist.
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Jan 2, 2015 19:36
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I've always thought the term conquistador was the most apt.
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Jan 2, 2015 20:24
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I've always thought the term conquistador was the most apt. Good imagery. They lack the infectious diseases to make this work, however...
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Jan 2, 2015 20:25
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CommieGIR posted:Good imagery. They lack the infectious diseases to make this work, however... Tons of pictures of kids swimming in standing water in the ruins of Gaza, surely infectious diseases are pretty common in those parts.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:33
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Some of the more hippie-like ideological settlers kind of act like frontiersmen. There are less-settled areas where you can just put up a shack and then cry to the Federales when the natives get uppity. The Wild West Bank.
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Jan 3, 2015 00:09
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I've always thought the term conquistador was the most apt. Doesn't fit half as well as "settler" does. The conquistadors were conquerors seeking to exploit local resources, not civilians moving into a territory and forcing out the natives after the military beats them into submission.
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Jan 3, 2015 00:24
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litany of gulps posted:Tons of pictures of kids swimming in standing water in the ruins of Gaza, surely infectious diseases are pretty common in those parts. Yes, well, if cholera or endemic malaria were to break out in Gaza, I'm uncertain as to what responsibility Israel has to risk Israeli lives in order to intervene for Gazans. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 01:11
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I think your uncertainty with regard to the assignment of responsibility can be taken for granted.emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit: YNET posted a recording of the comm lines during the massacre of Shujaiya, it's mostly just IDF soldiers panicking out of their minds one particularly damning snippet I thought was noteworthy "Get the tanks into this loving (refugee) camp and lift it up into the sky". Hell of a pinpoint operation. Let's just post that US Army PDF about declining IDF readiness over and over.
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Jan 3, 2015 02:31
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Hell of a time to have such a PR blunder. http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/02/world/meast/mideast-fatah-skulls-facebook/index.html?hpt=hp_t4 quote:The political party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas posted a drawn image online showing a large pile of skulls and skeletons with Jewish stars on them. Way to give more ammunition to the Israeli right.
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Jan 3, 2015 07:58
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I'd like a link to the last one / similar compilations, if anyone has them.
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Jan 3, 2015 08:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, well, if cholera or endemic malaria were to break out in Gaza, I'm uncertain as to what responsibility Israel has to risk Israeli lives in order to intervene for Gazans. I was reading about cholera outbreaks due to protective edge, but honestly I suspect the Israeli assistance would be bullet-related rather than anything medical.
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Jan 3, 2015 09:21
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The following is an archived blog post from the IDF spokesperson official website, it was removed yesterday from the website, anyone wants to guess why? https://archive.today/uaCEu
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Jan 3, 2015 14:31
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Nckdictator posted:Hell of a time to have such a PR blunder. Wow, yeah, way to host a Facebook page to which people can post poo poo.  emanresu tnuocca posted:The following is an archived blog post from the IDF spokesperson official website, it was removed yesterday from the website, anyone wants to guess why? "Only Palestinian rocks can kill." You're welcome, IDF Spokespeople. (Might be a good time to remind everyone that MK Miri Regev first came to prominence as the IDF Spokesperson).
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Jan 3, 2015 18:30
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The following is an archived blog post from the IDF spokesperson official website, it was removed yesterday from the website, anyone wants to guess why? Because of settlers throwing rocks at a US convoy a day or two ago, no doubt. Nice catch. Absurd Alhazred posted:Wow, yeah, way to host a Facebook page to which people can post poo poo. Looks like it actually was posted by the Fatah Facebook page - Times of Israel had a screenshot showing the bit under it that shows who posted it, and it matched the Fatah page's profile picture.
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Jan 3, 2015 19:56
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Main Paineframe posted:Looks like it actually was posted by the Fatah Facebook page - Times of Israel had a screenshot showing the bit under it that shows who posted it, and it matched the Fatah page's profile picture. I stand corrected. CNN story wasn't making that clear. ETA: Oh, this is looking to be a very, very silly election season:  Together we'll erase Netanyahu's 6 years in power. Good Sabbath (From Labor Party's official Facebook page, no seriously!) Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 20:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I stand corrected. CNN story wasn't making that clear. Is that...Steve Carrell?
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Jan 3, 2015 21:38
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"Only Palestinian rocks can kill." You're welcome, IDF Spokespeople. I'm really digging all the american friends of likud revealing what huge traitors they are in this case blaming the American diplomats for daring to travel on settler lands. MIGF any input on this? Are you ok with american diplomats being assaulted with deadly weapons as long as its from jewish hands?
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Jan 3, 2015 21:41
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Il Federale posted:Is that...Steve Carrell? Nope, but I guess we have a leading man for Isaac Herzog's biopic! 
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Jan 3, 2015 21:44
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After a bit of speculation it's now confirmed that Abbas submitted a 12(3) declaration to the ICC back-dating jurisdiction to 13th June 2014 which has the specific aim of bringing Protective Edge under the scope of a possible investigation. http://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/PIDS/press/Palestine_A_12-3.pdf#search=palestine
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Jan 3, 2015 23:29
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kustomkarkommando posted:After a bit of speculation it's now confirmed that Abbas submitted a 12(3) declaration to the ICC back-dating jurisdiction to 13th June 2014 which has the specific aim of bringing Protective Edge under the scope of a possible investigation. IDF is conducting its own investigations; does this mean that they are going to come under increased scrutiny, or is it just going to be accepted as sufficient?
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Jan 3, 2015 23:51
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Absurd Alhazred posted:IDF is conducting its own investigations; does this mean that they are going to come under increased scrutiny, or is it just going to be accepted as sufficient? To get over the complementarity principle and proceed with their own investigations the ICC would have to prove one of the following: Rome Statute Article 17(2) posted:(a) The proceedings were or are being undertaken or the national decision was made for the purpose of shielding the person concerned from criminal responsibility for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court referred to in article 5; Proving any of that will be an uphill battle, especially if Israel refuses to share the details of it's own investigations with the ICC. They will try to gauge the impartiality of the proceedings externally and they will probably pass muster. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 00:02
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kustomkarkommando posted:To get over the complementarity principle and proceed with their own investigations the ICC would have to prove one of the following: I think (b) might be the best shot; IDF judiciary consistently delays investigations, with the intent of waiting until suspects are out of its jurisdiction (which is 6 months or a year after discharge, I think?). Maybe that feeds into (c) also. (a) is probably going to be the hardest.
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Jan 4, 2015 00:06
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Aljazeera is reporting Israel is holding 127 million worth of taxes from Palestine in retaliation of them joining the ICC. I guess Israel doesnt care how much of a petty bitch they look like. E: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/reports-israel-freezes-palestinian-tax-funds-20151318526717391.html
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Jan 4, 2015 00:52
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Oh, like they don't do that every other day already.
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Jan 4, 2015 00:54
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A. Beaverhausen posted:Aljazeera is reporting Israel is holding 127 million worth of taxes from Palestine in retaliation of them joining the ICC. I guess Israel doesnt care how much of a petty bitch they look like. Israeli outlets are saying the same thing. It's a common reprisal for the Palestinians getting uppity.
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Jan 4, 2015 00:55
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kustomkarkommando posted:After a bit of speculation it's now confirmed that Abbas submitted a 12(3) declaration to the ICC back-dating jurisdiction to 13th June 2014 which has the specific aim of bringing Protective Edge under the scope of a possible investigation.
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Jan 4, 2015 02:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm really digging all the american friends of likud revealing what huge traitors they are in this case blaming the American diplomats for daring to travel on settler lands. The area was not secure. American diplomatic security cannot be guaranteed by IDF in Palestinian territories. If the settlements were to be formally annexed to Israel as part of a comprehensive agreement with PLO on the future of Palestinian statehood, then IDF could guarantee American diplomatic security. Palestinian attempts at joining ICC in order to bring charges against Israel are likely to provoke a war which Palestinians cannot win and cannot afford to fight. Such brinksmanship on behalf of Abbas demonstrates his lack of leadership. Absurd Alhazred posted:Israeli outlets are saying the same thing. It's a common reprisal for the Palestinians getting uppity. "getting uppity" is certainly one way to whitewash brinksmanship likely to provoke war
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Jan 4, 2015 05:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:The area was not secure. American diplomatic security cannot be guaranteed by IDF in Palestinian territories. If the settlements were to be formally annexed to Israel as part of a comprehensive agreement with PLO on the future of Palestinian statehood, then IDF could guarantee American diplomatic security. Are you serious? This makes it so Israel can't directly commit atrocities towards Palestine anymore, in theory at least.
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Jan 4, 2015 05:45
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A. Beaverhausen posted:Are you serious? This makes it so Israel can't directly commit atrocities towards Palestine anymore, in theory at least. Welcome to the operational theory for understanding US-Israeli relations. Israel can't commit atrocities towards Palestine, as Israel is a firm ally of America, serving as the foremost bulwark against arab populism.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:The area was not secure. American diplomatic security cannot be guaranteed by IDF in Palestinian territories. If the settlements were to be formally annexed to Israel as part of a comprehensive agreement with PLO on the future of Palestinian statehood, then IDF could guarantee American diplomatic security. Considering that Adei Ad, the settlement in question, is considered illegal even by Israel, I find it highly unlikely that Israel would desire to annex it. In fact, it's unlikely that the IDF would be welcome at all in the area, since the last time they were there was for the purpose of dismantling and demolishing parts of the outpost. http://www.theage.com.au/world/west-bank-tense-as-evacuation-fears-prompt-settlers-to-attack-olive-trees-20090724-dw7h.html quote:
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Jan 4, 2015 06:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:Welcome to the operational theory for understanding US-Israeli relations. Israel can't commit atrocities towards Palestine, as Israel is a firm ally of America, serving as the foremost bulwark against arab populism. I can't help but laugh at how farcical this 'alliance' is.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:26
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Panzeh posted:I can't help but laugh at how farcical this 'alliance' is. Sometimes, when you understand the present too well, it stops you from seeing the future.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:28
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Main Paineframe posted:Considering that Adei Ad, the settlement in question, is considered illegal even by Israel, I find it highly unlikely that Israel would desire to annex it. In fact, it's unlikely that the IDF would be welcome at all in the area, since the last time they were there was for the purpose of dismantling and demolishing parts of the outpost. Exactly. The lack of Palestinian agreement on terms for long-term peace have resulted in an attack on American diplomats in nominal Palestinian territory. Palestine should pay indemnities to America in order to guarantee that such attacks are not without consequence.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:Exactly. The lack of Palestinian agreement on terms for long-term peace have resulted in an attack on American diplomats in nominal Palestinian territory. Palestine should pay indemnities to America in order to guarantee that such attacks are not without consequence. Yes! YES! It's like you're really trying.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:46
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TildeATH posted:Yes! YES! Therefore, in order to secure such indemnities should they be requested, Israel has indefinitely frozen PLO accounts. Hence Israel is a steadfast American ally: Israel continues to adhere to its proactive policy approach towards the security of American interests. Palestinians must realize that their continued inability to reach and adhere to a long-term peace agreement with Israel continues to be contrary to the interests of regional stability and security, and actively harms American interests in the region. Why do Palestinians hate American interests?
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Jan 4, 2015 07:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:Exactly. The lack of Palestinian agreement on terms for long-term peace have resulted in an attack on American diplomats in nominal Palestinian territory. Palestine should pay indemnities to America in order to guarantee that such attacks are not without consequence. Are you even pretending to advocate imperial realpolitik anymore? When a border tribe assaults your representatives you don't extract tribute from the next tribe over, you enact retribution on the source of aggression. Send a company of marines to corral and execute a fifth of Adei Ad's military-aged males and perhaps they'll think twice about throwing stones the next time agents of their ruling hegemon pass by the village. If the recalcitrant client state that backs the tribe makes a fuss, simply take hostages from among whatever members of the ruling class's extended families happen to be within easy reach. Make an example of a few dynasts' sons and daughters and they may learn the value of both loyalty and submission, and discipline their auxiliary tribes accordingly. 1994 Toyota Celica fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 07:12
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zeal posted:Are you even pretending to advocate imperial realpolitik anymore? I think it's clear that he's ceased to pretend at all. He had me going for a while.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:14
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zeal posted:Are you even pretending to advocate imperial realpolitik anymore? When a border tribe assaults your representatives you don't extract tribute from the next tribe over, you enact retribution on the source of aggression. Send a company of marines to corral and execute a fifth of Adei Ad's military-aged males and perhaps they'll think twice about throwing stones the next time agents of their ruling hegemon pass by the village. If the recalcitrant client state that backs the tribe makes a fuss, simply take hostages from among whatever members of the ruling class's extended families happen to be within easy reach. Make an example of a few dynasts' sons and daughters and they may learn the value of both loyalty and submission, and discipline their auxiliary tribes accordingly. You exact payment from whomever claims sovreignty over the village which attacked you. Palestine is free to enter an agreement with Israel by which it renounces sovreignty over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:19
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