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So what will the PA do for Money now that they ain`t getting no more tax Money from Israel or aid from America? Is it realistic to expect the Arab countries to shoulder the burden or will their support be limitied to kind Words? Saudi Arabia could certainly afford it, but do they want to? Can they afford the political cost of not supporting Palestine? Perhaps this a chanche for Turkey to get som good PR by increasing it`s support for the Palestinain Authourity. One way or the other palestinian civil servants need to ge paid, the question is how to fund their salaries.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:01
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Baudolino posted:So what will the PA do for Money now that they ain`t getting no more tax Money from Israel or aid from America? Tax money from Israel?
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Jan 7, 2015 01:10
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Baudolino posted:So what will the PA do for Money now that they ain`t getting no more tax Money from Israel or aid from America? Collapse. No. What political cost? Erdogan's busy closing his own long-term energy deals and increasing security finding due to burgeoning insurgency within Turkey.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:Collapse. Hmm, let's see, what happens when the moderate groups collapse. Who fills the power vacuum? Is it: A. Better people B. Worse people C. Much worse people
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Jan 7, 2015 01:29
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If the PA collapses, Israel has to openly resume administering every aspect of the West Bank.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:34
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New Division posted:If the PA collapses, Israel has to openly resume administering every aspect of the West Bank. Not true, ISIS can assume administration of West Bank. Guess who America would support in an Israel v. ISIS war. litany of gulps posted:Hmm, let's see, what happens when the moderate groups collapse. Who fills the power vacuum? Is it: Hopefully, Palestinians are committed to peace and able to show sufficient leadership that A. will result. Unfortunately, C. is likely given Palestinian penchant towards militant islam.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not true, ISIS can assume administration of West Bank. I know you're just loving around, but the idea of Israeli settlers facing an ISIS administered West Bank is amusing.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:38
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New Division posted:I know you're just loving around, but the idea of Israeli settlers facing an ISIS administered West Bank is amusing. Will it? It'd look like the Lebanese Civil War, except with greater volumes of American direct aid and distracted Arab nations unable to provide foreign training and bases due to economic impacts of low oil. This is what Abbas lays the framework for when he supports a bid to join ICC. This is why Palestine cannot be accepted to ICC and must withdraw its application post haste.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not true, ISIS can assume administration of West Bank. Militancy is the natural result of actions like "cutting off salaries for public servants". I don't know if you can call simple cause and effect a racial penchant.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:42
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I like how everyone just ignores MIGF in the american political thread so he comes here now. He just needs people to participate in his grizzled political operative RP.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:49
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litany of gulps posted:Militancy is the natural result of actions like "cutting off salaries for public servants". I don't know if you can call simple cause and effect a racial penchant. Cause: PA bid for ICC membership Effect: PA unable to pay salaries Cause: PA unable to pay salaries Effect: Rise of militant islam in West Bank, collapse of PA Cause: Rise of militant islam in West Bank Effect: Dead Jews and civil war in West Bank Cause: Dead Jews and civil war in West Bank Effect: Republican Congress greatly increases aid to Israel in order to eliminate militant islam in West Bank and ensure appropriate factions achieve victory in West Bank civil war
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Jan 7, 2015 01:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not true, ISIS can assume administration of West Bank. To what end? We've already seen how the Iraqi Army fares against ISIS, are we really presupposing that the IDF is any more dauntless or competent at this point? Money doesn't purge an army of cowards and half-wits; neither does equipment.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:51
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My Imaginary GF posted:Will it? It'd look like the Lebanese Civil War, except with greater volumes of American direct aid and distracted Arab nations unable to provide foreign training and bases due to economic impacts of low oil. The 1814 campaign, fought against long odds cemented Napoleon as a military genius where he was able to inflict serious defeats on enemies thrice his size with only unenthusiastic conscripts and few cavalry.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Cause: PA bid for ICC membership Will Abbas be killed? Yes Total Palestinian civillian casualties: 500 dead Total military casualties Palestine: 3000 dead Total military casualties Israel: 15 dead Will the Palestinian army regulars hold the lines? No Will Hamas fight to the end? No Will tiny rockets be used on invading troops?: Yes Will Abbas launch attacks on the Bedouins? Yes Will Abbas launch attacks on the US? No -If yes; will the US retaliate harshly? Yes Will Abbas sacrifice Jerusalem (lob rockets at it)? No Will the Bedouins make a grab for independence? Yes Will Jordan do anything silly like try for land? Yes Will Abbas burn the olive orchards? Yes How long will Israel be occupying Palestine? FOREVER Will the Palestine war catalyze increased terrorism in Israel?No In the long run, will this war be good or bad for the world? Good
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Jan 7, 2015 02:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:Effect: Dead Jews How can any sane person support a theocracy and still bag on other theocracies? Why do you always have to conflate Israeli garbagemensch with Jews? Sure, many of them are Jewish in heritage, culture and religion but not all Jews support apartheid. I think the sickos in Israel and their dwindling international supporters are in the minority.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:13
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R. Mute posted:How long will it take to capture Jerusalem? 2 days The F-35 is a a masterpiece of aviation engineering. Bush did nothing wrong.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:15
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syscall girl posted:How can any sane person support a theocracy and still bag on other theocracies? Dont recent polls show the solid majority of Israeli Jews are quite happy to live in an Apartheid State?
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Jan 7, 2015 02:44
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bpower posted:Dont recent polls show the solid majority of Israeli Jews are quite happy to live in an Apartheid State? If you ignore the people you are oppressing I'm sure Israel is a lovely place to live in. Lots of cute girls, nice weather, etc. I don't get the sense that Jews who live outside of Israel support Israel's policies so much as they don't want it to be destroyed. The imagined fear of a second holocaust is driving lots of people to support monstrous fuckers and the slightly less (or more) monstrous fuckers who will succeed them. I personally support Israel in the sense that I don't want it blown up for a bunch of different reasons and also wish it would act like a proper decent country even though its roots are all hosed up. I wish all of them long lives and good health and hope that their "neighbors" can also prosper and live without fear but wish in one hand and poo poo in the other.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:59
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Grondoth posted:I like how everyone just ignores MIGF in the american political thread so he comes here now. He just needs people to participate in his grizzled political operative RP. I actually like MIGF. He's one of the funniest posters in D&D.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:12
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fool_of_sound posted:I actually like MIGF. He's one of the funniest posters in D&D. Good lord, do you also eat Hungry Man frozen dinners every day of your life?
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Jan 7, 2015 03:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:Cause: PA bid for ICC membership Oh yes, Congress has proven highly competent at destroying militant Islamist factions. If Israel is rocking modern first world weapons and their opponents are primarily rock throwing teenagers, I'm not sure that more military funding is actually a path toward achieving this elimination of militant Islam. I love the initial cause and effect, too. Like, in what kind of mind is attempting to join an international court a reasonable justification for attempting to collapse the moderate political system of a nation with financial manipulation. How does this even make the slightest bit of sense? Clearly, if the PA collapses and more radical factions take over, everyone involved loses. The US at least has the sense to treat these international groups with an air of indifference, while the Israeli crowd reeks of desperation to escape the scrutiny that comes from such organizations.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:36
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As has been said, it's easier to imagine MIGF to be a channel for the real people who actually exist in positions of power and influence who hold his opinions or at least opinions he has made into a caricature. If you can't convincingly demolish his smokescreens, misdirections, coded language and fallacious arguments aimed at winning over being true then you don't really have a chance of overcoming the actual vested interests who use those same arguments to protect their entrenched positions. People enjoy having the truth on their side and like imagining themselves demolishing Presidents and Prime Ministers on their hypocrisies, but these people (or their policy wonk supporters who manage the bureaucracy) are well-equipped debaters, and it's that ability which keeps policies like Israel's treatment of the Palestinians going. Like that little cause-and-effect spiel we just saw. How can you argue that joining the International Criminal Court and participating in international law is a bad thing, especially when there are other cases when the U.S. and/or the international community will advocate these institutions when dealing with rogue states or political enemies? Don't address whether there are actual war crimes to be prosecuted, instead take a reading of possible consequences and make Abbas directly responsible for them, or implicitly eager for them. In the worst case the PA applying for the ICC has the effect of Israel pulling funding, so the PA collapses, so the boogeyman (sorry, I mean ISIS) takes over the West Bank and unleashes a rein of blood, so since we started the chain at Abbas he's responsible for the blood and probably even intends it. No comment is given about why the chain has to start there instead of with the war crimes and diplomatic stonewalling from Israel that provoked joining the ICC, nor is the fairness of any of the intermediary steps like Israel pulling funding in response to Palestinians participating in international affairs independently examined. You can't just take wild potshots at this kind of argument, trying to tug on one thread or just growl and dismiss it with a wave. It demands an articulate, organized response - an alternative take that could replace it completely. The fact that there is so little political will or power behind creating and advancing such a response is why Israel is marching so self-assuredly to complete domination of the Palestinians and their land, and why supporters of the Palestinians so often resign themselves to the hope that Israel will drive itself off a cliff.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:40
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Dolash posted:You can't just take wild potshots at this kind of argument, trying to tug on one thread or just growl and dismiss it with a wave. It demands an articulate, organized response - an alternative take that could replace it completely. The fact that there is so little political will or power behind creating and advancing such a response is why Israel is marching so self-assuredly to complete domination of the Palestinians and their land, and why supporters of the Palestinians so often resign themselves to the hope that Israel will drive itself off a cliff. How does a person legitimately argue with someone who can't even agree that war crimes are something nations and people in general should avoid committing? Especially in an issue where actual historical events can be hand-waved away because they don't fit a popular narrative? I mean, seriously; how long until MIGF's once again responds with how Hamas and the PA by extension cannot be trusted because they use human shields(!!!!!!!!) despite repeatedly being informed of Israel being the ones to both use human shields and argue on the necessity of bombing a UN building full of refugees to take out a nearby week-old rocket launch site? I think there's a point where there is no good argument to use and all you can hope is to somehow shame the person making insane calls for genocide and, by extension, anyone who agrees with them. That apparently doesn't work with pro-Israel folks, though.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:58
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A Terrible Person posted:I think there's a point where there is no good argument to use and all you can hope is to somehow shame the person making insane calls for genocide and, by extension, anyone who agrees with them. That apparently doesn't work with pro-Israel folks, though. You have to recognize that the goal of the argument isn't to change the opinion of the person you are arguing with, but rather to influence more people watching than they are capable of influencing. When confronted in a public forum, typically the rabid person arguing for genocide is quickly turned into a sideshow. Somethingawful is no different than most public spaces, despite attempts to paint it as some kind of liberal nest by extremists. Even if the arguments seem pointless, as long as there are people watching and listening that might be swayed by the rhetoric of one side or the other, it is worthwhile to push your point of view, particularly when it is undoubtedly correct and not speaking up could lead to the poisonous rhetoric of the insane to spread.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:05
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Grondoth posted:I like how everyone just ignores MIGF in the american political thread so he comes here now. He just needs people to participate in his grizzled political operative RP. It's actually just smartly worded racism. Calling it RP is letting him off the hook.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:27
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Baudolino posted:So what will the PA do for Money now that they ain`t getting no more tax Money from Israel or aid from America? The civil servants in Gaza haven't been paid for more than six months already (Hamas ran out of money a while ago), and the PA's got at least some money reserves and some domestic tax collection capability that isn't dependent on Israel. Even with the money flow cut off, the PA will be able to hold together for a year or two, which is longer than either Israel or America are willing to risk tightening the PA's belt anyway.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:30
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litany of gulps posted:You have to recognize that the goal of the argument isn't to change the opinion of the person you are arguing with, but rather to influence more people watching than they are capable of influencing. When confronted in a public forum, typically the rabid person arguing for genocide is quickly turned into a sideshow. Somethingawful is no different than most public spaces, despite attempts to paint it as some kind of liberal nest by extremists. Even if the arguments seem pointless, as long as there are people watching and listening that might be swayed by the rhetoric of one side or the other, it is worthwhile to push your point of view, particularly when it is undoubtedly correct and not speaking up could lead to the poisonous rhetoric of the insane to spread. It would probably be better if you were debating somewhere that wasn't paywalled half the time then.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:46
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litany of gulps posted:You have to recognize that the goal of the argument isn't to change the opinion of the person you are arguing with, but rather to influence more people watching than they are capable of influencing. When confronted in a public forum, typically the rabid person arguing for genocide is quickly turned into a sideshow. Somethingawful is no different than most public spaces, despite attempts to paint it as some kind of liberal nest by extremists. Even if the arguments seem pointless, as long as there are people watching and listening that might be swayed by the rhetoric of one side or the other, it is worthwhile to push your point of view, particularly when it is undoubtedly correct and not speaking up could lead to the poisonous rhetoric of the insane to spread. Wouldn't it make more sense to present the facts as they occur while ignoring his insane ramblings, though? It seems like everyone that responds to him is acting like his statements are actually worthy of response and, therefor, have some merit no matter how dubious.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:58
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The alternative is that they go unchallenged, but yeah, we're not really posting on Something Awful for the benefit of a secret audience of silent undecideds - I can agree with not engaging with madness for the sake of a more readable thread and a focus on actual current events (any election news, by the way?). It's just worth remembering that engaging with guys like MIGF in the real world isn't completely optional, since he's representing opinions that are widespread and influential. It might not be fun to go up against him but it might make for good practice. I honestly wish he was some kind of Turing-test-passing bot made out of Washington beltway wisdom to act as a political training dummy, and I confess that I like it when we share a side of an argument (like in the Eastern Europe thread) since he does do a good job of tying up his opponents. That's actually one of the trickier parts of the I/P dilemma since many people you might agree with on other pressing geopolitical issues have terrible opinions on this one. MIGF, I feel weird referring to you like you're not in the room/thread. I may disagree with you but it's still rude of us to talk around you.
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Jan 7, 2015 08:38
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MIGF is what a dumb person thinks an important person sounds like imo.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:Cause: PA bid for ICC membership Cause: Decades of an occupied apartheid state with little political or public will to end it any time in the future Effect: Palestinians pursuing their independence. If Palestinians fight for their freedom they're terrorists and people say they should use peaceful methods. If they use peaceful methods of resistance like appealing to international law then people (you) complain that they aren't being fair because it's mean of them to actually follow through on what you were suggesting and force you to hypocritically punish them for things you had suggested. As you aren't willing for them to resist using military methods or peacefully, it seems you either want the Palestinians to accept the ethnic cleansing they suffered and the apartheid and occupation they live with to this day or to stop existing. Either one of those options is obviously intolerable and unrealistic.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:22
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I just saw a breaking news alert that Palestine would be accepted to the ICC this April.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:Cause: PA bid for ICC membership You heard it from MIGF first: Bibi is a bloodthirsty anti-Semite.
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Jan 7, 2015 10:14
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Why would Israel oppose Palestinian membership in the ICC unless they though they couldn't win. If Israel's cause is just, they should welcome their day in court. Seems like Israel knows what they are doing is wrong.
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Jan 7, 2015 12:12
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Mandy Thompson posted:Why would Israel oppose Palestinian membership in the ICC unless they though they couldn't win. If Israel's cause is just, they should welcome their day in court. Seems like Israel knows what they are doing is wrong. That or the ICC is composed of gentiles who are naturally predisposed towards genocidal antisemitism.
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Jan 7, 2015 12:26
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Mandy Thompson posted:Why would Israel oppose Palestinian membership in the ICC unless they though they couldn't win. If Israel's cause is just, they should welcome their day in court. Seems like Israel knows what they are doing is wrong. There should be pretty much no circumstances where membership of the ICC should be opposed. The ICC is used to prosecute some of the most abhorrent crimes imaginable, mostly due to their sheer scale, and allowing nations (or quasi-non-national entities or whatever the hell we classify the oPT as) to get justice for crimes committed against them should always be viewed as the moral thing to do. Not only that but the fact that the complaints are completely coming from those that have been whining and arguing for years that Palestinians are violent terrorists and if they just tried a peaceful approach then maybe Of course my worry is that US pressure will be put on the ICC and it won't pursue any case against Israel or will pursue one and find them not guilty, weakening the Palestinian position. Of course I think that no case will ever bee seen or anyone imprisoned. I imagine this will very easily get stuck at the extradition stage, although i will admit I know very little about the ICC situation and what it entails. If anyone has the details of how a case would proceed and where it is likely to fall apart against Israel, I'd certainly be interested.
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Jan 7, 2015 12:29
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emanresu tnuocca posted:That or the ICC is composed of gentiles who are naturally predisposed towards genocidal antisemitism. Yeah the antisemitism everywhere paranoia is a way of poisoning the well in the debate. team overhead smash posted:There should be pretty much no circumstances where membership of the ICC should be opposed. The ICC is used to prosecute some of the most abhorrent crimes imaginable, mostly due to their sheer scale, and allowing nations (or quasi-non-national entities or whatever the hell we classify the oPT as) to get justice for crimes committed against them should always be viewed as the moral thing to do. Its like the country has this mass delusion that anything they do is right, that they are entitled to anything they want, and that every attempt to push back whether peaceful or violent is proof that they are the victim even as they have the backing of the most powerful military in the world, support of one of the most powerful lobby groups in the world, US politicians in their pockets terrified to say anything. Antisemitism is a thing but Israel, through its actions is its biggest promoter.
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Jan 7, 2015 12:42
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Israel knows its actions are considered to be illegal by large portions of the world, that doesn't mean that it considers them to be wrong or that it should stop pursuing its territorial objectives along the west bank. "Eretz Israel le'am Israel" and the such, "Oom Shmoom" is also a good one. There's also "It is not important what the goyim say but only what the Jews do". Israel has not been settling the west bank with the intention of ever relinquishing control over it, the Palestinians pursuing outside intervention is not conductive to Israel's self perceived interests, that's about it.
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Jan 7, 2015 12:48
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team overhead smash posted:Of course my worry is that US pressure will be put on the ICC and it won't pursue any case against Israel or will pursue one and find them not guilty, weakening the Palestinian position. Of course I think that no case will ever bee seen or anyone imprisoned. I imagine this will very easily get stuck at the extradition stage, although i will admit I know very little about the ICC situation and what it entails. If anyone has the details of how a case would proceed and where it is likely to fall apart against Israel, I'd certainly be interested. I think realistically if an investigation gets opened it will languish in the preliminary stages while the ICC monitors the situation and provides advice, much like the Georgia referral which has been in prelim for over 6 years. But then you have the dangling threat of 2017 when the ICC gains the power to prosecute crimes of aggression, such as naval blockades...
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Jan 7, 2015 13:39
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What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process. Israel as a nation may lose a lot from chaos in the West bank. But for the right wing militants that would just be super great. They would get to kill more Arabs and whip up even more fear in Israeli voters if PA collapses due to Money problems. For the oppressors it seems like a double win. Not that i blame Abbas for joining the ICC tough he has to use what meagre weapons he can find to help his People. Giving in to US and Israeli Financial pressure would be political ( and quite possibly literal) suicide.
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Jan 7, 2015 13:44
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