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I think it's interesting how Punisher 2099 and Leopardon both accomplished roughly the same thing story-wise (cameoed out of nowhere to fight a vampire and buy time for the hero) and yet are getting opposite reader reactions. Let's compare. Punisher 2099 makes a dramatic appearance, takes a few lumps and taunts from the villain, then shuts them up with an improbable weapon and outsmarts them. It's clear that he's outmatched, but both sides come out looking good even if Punisher's small victory feels earned. Supaidaman (yeah, I'm calling him that) makes a very dramatic, triumphant appearance, attacks the villain, then gets completely shrugged off and only winds up buying time by inadvertently sacrificing his robot. He's completely outmatched, and ends up looking stupid for underestimating the villain, who "raises the stakes" by adding another notch to his belt after having already chumped one of the most powerful beings in Marvel cosmology. It's worth noting that Punisher got six pages, while Supaidaman only got two or three. The rushed pace partially explains why Leopardon just showed up and immediately got owned, but doesn't excuse it. I think, for instance, having just changed a few lines of dialogue to make it seem like a willing, noble sacrifice for the greater good in a desperate situation (those happen all the time in giant robot shows) would have been better than what it came across as instead: a tragic accident with a silver lining. I know that's a lot of words just for this, but I like giant robots and good fight scenes, okay. 
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Jan 8, 2015 20:46
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I feel like the problem is that ASM has for all intents and purposes become a "hub book" or something where very little actually happens besides catching you up one where all four of the spin-off teams are. Most of the past two issues have been 616 Peter checking in on Miles, Spider-Woman, Scarlet Spider, and Spider-Man 2099, followed by the requisite "Check out _______ issue #2 for more information!" boxes. The side series are the ones that actually seem to be advancing the plot, whereas each ASM is just turning into a crazy battle scene where super powerful villains shrug off all attacks and murder a few Spideys per issue. No one gets a chance to shine and everyone looks crappy.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:07
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Angry Walrus posted:You don't have to kill to establish threat. The Spider-Men could be enslaved a la Verla's hounds or do body horror as they're turned into powerful spider-strands for the Web of Fate that the Gothic Victorian Cosplay Society are having Master Weaver make to give them control of the multiverse or something and then it's an easy enough fix for everything to be set straight at the end without feeling like a complete asspull. I'd argue that doing body horror (which most people write as literally a fate worse than death) would be just as bad if you're trying to avoid the negative fan reaction but hey whatever. Thank goodness Hostess Ad Spider-Man isn't dead, he was just horrendously transformed into a web and has no mouth but cannot scream but hey he isn't dead. Look, I agree, you don't have to kill to establish threat. For example, a lot of Dark Reign's threat was based entirely on the fact that a psychopath was in charge of SHIELD and had a bunch of other superpowered psychos on a leash totally government-sanctioned to kill people whenever he wanted. But that's establishing a threat based on one planet in one universe. Again, my question is how do you establish a multiversal threat. And I think the easiest way is having the spiders being hunted. You can say that Slott's a lazy hack for taking that easy way, but in Avengers, Hickman is killing whole worlds like it's going out of style, the situation is tense and nobody in this thread cares half as much (because nobody cares about all the Captain Britains being dead). You can say no one cares because Hickman is a better writer, and to an extent you'd be right, but ultimately I think it's because everyone gets mad when they see their favorite Spidey lose. And that's what I was saying before. Spider-Verse promises every Spider-Man ever, and it delivers... and that is why it fails. Every Spider-Man ever in an event comic is an idea destined for disaster because 616 Spidey is the star and event comics are where background characters go to die. You might as well mourn Skrull #482-A from Infinity.
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Jan 9, 2015 03:16
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TwoPair posted:
No, it's because Hickman is a better writer than Slott. I mean, I don't mind that Knight-looking Spider-Man dies, whatever. I'm bothered by having such a chaotic comic book with no name villains and a dumb plot. At this point I'd rather see more of regular Morlun than anyone of his family. The tie-ins aren't that bad, ASM is the worst of the bunch.
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Jan 9, 2015 03:21
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Hickman has killed a vast majority of worlds off panel because he realizes that it gets less and less effective every time you kill on panel. Nobody is angry over the spider deaths they are just bored by them an angry they can't get invested. Plus discount hammer horror vampires will never sell as multiversal threats which is why Slott is having to try so hard. SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 03:34
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To be fair it is also hard to make it credible and also only involve Spiderman.
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Jan 9, 2015 03:47
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It's dumb to have leopardon killed off in two pages because we already know that the baddies are a big threat. They killed off captain universe spider man. Having leopardon show up and do nothing just annoys fans, because a character that a lot of people wanted to see ends up doing nothing but buy time. Just have leopardon show up later in the event and actually do something cool. Fans would be fine with that. I really think this book is a missed opportunity for some great moments of having different alternate spidey's interacting with one another. Instead we just have them jobbing and/or getting slaughtered. This event is just crappy
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Jan 9, 2015 03:56
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There's always the Tie-Ins at least.
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Jan 9, 2015 03:59
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I think that is the core problem with Spider-verse. The people happy to see these characters want to see them be cool and do fun things. That is what a crossover tends to be about. If you're bringing in obscure Spider-characters just to have them job or die, nobody is going to care except the people who like those characters.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:02
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Yeah, this comic should be like Super Robot wars, not a slasher movie.
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Jan 9, 2015 06:30
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah, this comic should be like Super Robot wars, not a slasher movie. That's my other problem with this arc, it should be fun to have all these interesting Spider people, instead it's just dreary and dull, at least in ASM
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Jan 9, 2015 14:44
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Doc Ock liked being Spider-Man so much that he gathers all of the Spider-Men from multiple dimensions together, pitting them against each other and their assorted villains to determine which version truly is the Superior Spider-Man so he can mind-swap with the one he deems best. The remaining Spider-Men have to survive, take him out, and un-swap his brain. Same basic concept, but with more alt-Spidey interaction and less vampires. Or we could just do it Dan Slott's way and squander every bit of potential for fun.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:54
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Looks like Comic Vine's got a preview for my Spider-Punk story.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:57
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Whatever happened to that Sinister 666 idea that was teased years ago around BND? That'd have been great for this event. A crash of Rhinos! A flock of Vultures! A rave of Electro's! I don't have anything against Morlun, but I'd rather see Norman Osborn try and throw Spider Gwen off a bridge. If you're going to bring out all the Spidey toys, give me some classic villains to smash them against. EDIT:  I'm planning a Spider Punk costume for C2E2
Open Marriage Night fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 21:44
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Spider-Verse feels like a golden statue of a turd. The material is great, but it's wasted to make, well, poo poo. The story just feels shoddy and BORING to me, and that should not be the case in a book where a giant robot fights a cosmic vampire.
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Jan 9, 2015 21:55
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If you want to read that book just read the tie-ins, there the ones that exist to focus on the alt Spider-People.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:56
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Waterhaul posted:If you want to read that book just read the tie-ins, there the ones that exist to focus on the alt Spider-People. Their existence doesn't make the main book any better.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:01
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Not really no but there's no point expecting something different from Amazing issues. Spider-Verse is the entire event, not just the Amazing Spider-Man issues, if you find Peter and magic vampires boring just read the books that don't focus on them. If you still want to read the series.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:08
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Finally got a nice cedar wood frame for my lithograph I picked up at Boston Comic Con this year. Been waiting a while to find the right frame for this because of it's awkward dimensions. So excited to hang this up tonight!
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Jan 10, 2015 20:01
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I think I've asked this before, but was the "The Non-Mutant Superhero" caption on the covers of that era a joke about Spidey being the biggest non-X-Men property at Marvel, or was it there because X-Men were such a big deal that anything with the word "mutant" on it would sell?
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Jan 10, 2015 20:27
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Metal Loaf posted:I think I've asked this before, but was the "The Non-Mutant Superhero" caption on the covers of that era a joke about Spidey being the biggest non-X-Men property at Marvel, or was it there because X-Men were such a big deal that anything with the word "mutant" on it would sell? Bit of both.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:31
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Windows 98 posted:Finally got a nice cedar wood frame for my lithograph I picked up at Boston Comic Con this year. Been waiting a while to find the right frame for this because of it's awkward dimensions. So excited to hang this up tonight! Also, just for a little context, I have two copies of this issue as well.  I plan on framing both the front and reverse side of the actual comics and putting them next to / below the lithograph. I don't particularly have a passion for this issue or anything. It was just the cheapest lithograph that was of a decent size and Spider-Man I could find at the end of the last day at Comic Con. I also just happened to own a copy of the issue already. And without even checking I went out and found another copy at my local comic store. Bought it. Went to go put it in my box of Spider-Man issues, and realized I already had it. Decided it would be a good opportunity to really have all of it framed and look like a really nice wall piece collection. Either way they look cool. I haven't even had time to read the loving issue. Ha. Windows 98 fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 00:25
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There's so much wasted potential with this, like everything Slott does. He really needs to move onto being an Editor and just give better writers cross-over events he wants done, and he can pimp out how cool and awesome they are without being obnoxious and arrogant about it. For example: Why don't we see Spider-Ock get derailed when he finds a universe where Norman Osbourne has taken over Peter's body and created his own Superior Spider-Man? e: Real answer, because Doc Ock is Slott's spirit animal and thinks that Ock is the greatest Spider-Man villain of all time.
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Jan 11, 2015 06:11
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Windows 98 posted:Also, just for a little context, I have two copies of this issue as well. I am still pissed that all my McFarlane Amazing Spider-Mans were stolen out of my locker in high school.
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Jan 11, 2015 07:50
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Flameingblack posted:There's so much wasted potential with this, like everything Slott does. He really needs to move onto being an Editor and just give better writers cross-over events he wants done, and he can pimp out how cool and awesome they are without being obnoxious and arrogant about it.  But who would take over for him? Gage? Yost? And I doubt Slott will let anything save the hand of the reaper pry him away from his dream job. Plus being in an editorial position doesn't seem to stop some people from ruining the comics anyway. Is it wrong I'd have been perfectly happy with JMS still writing married Spidey (I think he's made statements he'd have been happy to do that indefinitely) to this day? THANKS QUESADA.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:53
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doctor octopus IS the greatest spider-man villain of all time though he's not wrong
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Jan 11, 2015 14:05
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Close second to Green Goblin. Having Norman and Peter know each other in their civilian lives gives them a relationship few Heroes/Villains have.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:10
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Die Laughing posted:Close second to Green Goblin. Having Norman and Peter know each other in their civilian lives gives them a relationship few Heroes/Villains have. Yeah but it's also a relationship that was barely used except for some mostly unreadable comics toward the end of the 90's.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:37
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Doctor Octopus is a more fitting villain for Peter than Green Goblin is. He represents an alternate path for Peter. A smart bullied nerd who gets superpowers in an accident and decides to exploit them for self-gain. His powerset is interesting in that it compliments Peter's own for dynamic and interesting fight scenes and also has minor thematic parallels to spiders. (Mostly the multiple arms.) Green Goblin is Peter's biggest villain because he is one of Peter's friend's dad and killed his girlfriend. Beyond that they don't really have a lot of thematic intertwine and (as shown by the multitude of 'guys with gliders' enemies) he isn't very unique or distinctive nor do his powers really mesh well with Peter's. But Green Goblin killed Gwen so he's always going to get top billing.
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Jan 11, 2015 19:35
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah but it's also a relationship that was barely used except for some mostly unreadable comics toward the end of the 90's. Yeah given how much Norman has been used since the late 90's it's often difficult to reconcile that he's been dead for about half of his creation and Norman vs Peter is really a Clone Saga thing.
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Jan 11, 2015 20:09
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah but it's also a relationship that was barely used except for some mostly unreadable comics toward the end of the 90's. Often imitated, but Amazing Spider-Man 39 and 40 is the definitive Green Goblin story. It's a really great example of what made Spider-Man such a great character.
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Jan 11, 2015 20:47
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ImpAtom posted:Doctor Octopus is a more fitting villain for Peter than Green Goblin is. I've always considered it a question of tone whether Doc Ock or Green Goblin is "the" Spider-man nemesis. By the original conception of the character (especially through the Ditko era), you're absolutely right that Doc Ock is Peter's dark mirror. But the shift in focus to Green Goblin also coincided with Peter becoming more of a classic Hero's Journey everyman, so a villainous, living father figure to contrast with the own deceased and virtuous ones Peter needs to make his peace with is more important.
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Jan 11, 2015 21:26
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I think it depends on how much you want to ignore the original Green Goblin or more specifically the original Norman Osborn. Norman Osborn was the dickhead CEO who knifed his way to the top by stabbing everyone else in the back. There's really no indication in the original comics that he was all that smart of a scientist or inventor. He just employed smart people who invented stuff. Norman's origin is he dicks over his business partner, goes looking into his stuff, tries to replicate the serum and it literally blows up in his face. Norman is by no means a dumb man, but he's a manipulator at worst and a leader at best. What made Norman interesting as a villain early on is that he knew Peter's identity and could get to him. But the sticking point was he was loving nuts when he found out so Peter never really knew if he could recall it when he was sane. Sometimes I like to point out that he also tried to lead the criminal gangs as well, but that was pretty much the goal of every Spider-Man villain back then so I don't put too much stock into it. Now Norman has been written for so long as at least a somewhat smart and capable scientist that you might as well run with it. But every now and then a writer will hit on a theme of Norman's designs kind of sucking or him stealing someone's work. In the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, Adrien Toomes accuses him of stealing tech flight from an invention of his he pitched to Oscorp. During a Dark Reign one-shot written by Slott, Spider-Man ended up beating Iron Patriot because Norman's "star" shaped laser chest was really bad at letting heat out so he just let Norman overheat and beat him easily. Ock, however, is a brilliant scientist in his own right and has proven it time and time again. He had a horrible accident happen to him and instead of doing something good, he became selfish. He's more of a polar opposite of Peter than Norman is, but their rivalry has never been about identities. It is that both think the other is wasting their talent. At some points in his life, you could probably say Norman was insane and not in full control of his actions. I think that is much less of a case with Otto. Even in the often cited "I will cure you from this unknowable disease" during the Clone Saga of Ock's great heart, the ending has him admitting he's only doing it so he can kill Spider-Man later in life, and then Kaine just rips his head off or whatever anyway. I actually think Ock has stayed more true to his roots than Norman, and that's probably because he's rarely used outside of the spider-books.
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Jan 11, 2015 22:08
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notthegoatseguy posted:It is that both think the other is wasting their talent. It is notable that one of the first things that Ock does after taking Peter's body is note how easy to make Peter's web fluid is and how he could have made a shitload of money with it. Then he's amazed that Peter doesn't have a doctorate so he goes off and gets one. Ock thinks Parker is wasting his talents on superheroing, Parker thinks Ock is wasting his on evil (they're both kinda right well Peter is right, but Doc Ock has a point). TwoPair fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 22:42
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Spiderverse is like a cross between Final Destination and Dragon Ball Z.
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Jan 11, 2015 22:56
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notthegoatseguy posted:Ock, however, is a brilliant scientist in his own right and has proven it time and time again. He had a horrible accident happen to him and instead of doing something good, he became selfish. He's more of a polar opposite of Peter than Norman is, but their rivalry has never been about identities. It is that both think the other is wasting their talent. At some points in his life, you could probably say Norman was insane and not in full control of his actions. I think that is much less of a case with Otto. Even in the often cited "I will cure you from this unknowable disease" during the Clone Saga of Ock's great heart, the ending has him admitting he's only doing it so he can kill Spider-Man later in life, and then Kaine just rips his head off or whatever anyway. I actually think Ock has stayed more true to his roots than Norman, and that's probably because he's rarely used outside of the spider-books. One of my favourite Ock stories is actually from JMS's run, when he fights the crooked business executive who nicked the design for his arms. There's one great scene where Ock's fight with the other bad guy wrecks a hotel lobby, and Peter has to hold up the entire building before it collapses on the civilians; Ock helps him until everyone is out safely, then says, "You are not a civilian. Goodbye." and leaves him to get crushed by falling rubble.
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Jan 11, 2015 23:17
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TwoPair posted:It is notable that one of the first things that Ock does after taking Peter's body is note how easy to make Peter's web fluid is and how he could have made a shitload of money with it. Then he's amazed that Peter doesn't have a doctorate so he goes off and gets one. Ock thinks Parker is wasting his talents on superheroing, Parker thinks Ock is wasting his on evil (they're both kinda right well Peter is right, but Doc Ock has a point). Peter's greatest enemy in general is the power of the Status Quo, particularly after the films re-popularised young and nerdy Peter (though amusingly, he was in University before the first film even ended). Didn't the 90s briefly toy around with the idea of him being a teacher at least? Kinda sad that sort of thing didn't stick - Peter with a profession outside of the photojournalism would've given him a lot more room to go about doing the whole patenting web fluid thing, and getting some better qualifications.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:03
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Even when Peter and MJ were a young married couple in the 80s and 90s, there were tons of neckbearded writers who were desperately trying to come up with ways to restore him to a "more relatable" status quo. Some people can't handle having their heroes grow up.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:05
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Astro Nut posted:Peter's greatest enemy in general is the power of the Status Quo, particularly after the films re-popularised young and nerdy Peter (though amusingly, he was in University before the first film even ended). Didn't the 90s briefly toy around with the idea of him being a teacher at least? Kinda sad that sort of thing didn't stick - Peter with a profession outside of the photojournalism would've given him a lot more room to go about doing the whole patenting web fluid thing, and getting some better qualifications.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:21
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Lurdiak posted:Even when Peter and MJ were a young married couple in the 80s and 90s, there were tons of neckbearded writers who were desperately trying to come up with ways to restore him to a "more relatable" status quo. Some people can't handle having their heroes grow up. That always seemed weird and counter-productive to me. Wouldn't he be more relatable if he had to age and thus went through the various changes that people do growing up. Or is being married alien to comic bo- Oh nevermind.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:23
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