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khwarezm posted:'You people' Yes. khwarezm posted:Also if you actually lived in France or Britain or India or China or Japan or wherever you'd find that the local cultural products are actually pretty popular alongside American imports. So what you're saying is there's no risk of destroyed culture then?
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Jan 9, 2015 19:29
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yes.So what you're saying is there's no risk of destroyed culture then? What does this even mean?
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Jan 9, 2015 19:33
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Nintendo Kid posted:
In fact I am, I don't think most places are in danger of being enveloped by American culture and both can exist alongside each and influence each other without a problem, but like I explained I don't think America's cultural influence is because everything that comes from there is incredibly amazing comparatively.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:35
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How would one even measure this? Trade balance? (very dumb derail btw)
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Jan 9, 2015 19:42
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:How would one even measure this? Trade balance? 
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Jan 9, 2015 19:50
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To be fair, that screen is usually followed up by a coordinated nuclear strike on all your cities.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:52
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Miltank posted:What does this even mean? Did you read the last page? I've been talking about this exchange: Darth Walrus posted:Seriously, though, European culture is hardly in danger of being wiped out. It's a dominant hegemony integrating other cultures into itself. All immigration does is make it richer and more diverse and keep it from becoming stagnant. TheNakedFantastic posted:Most of US culture is garbage and is close to(?) being the most diverse nation on the planet. Looks a lot like the last dude was saying being diverse makes culture worse!
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Jan 9, 2015 19:54
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khwarezm posted:In fact I am, I don't think most places are in danger of being enveloped by American culture and both can exist alongside each and influence each other without a problem, but like I explained I don't think America's cultural influence is because everything that comes from there is incredibly amazing comparatively. Seinfeld's pretty good though
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Jan 9, 2015 20:05
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Dilkington posted:Seinfeld's pretty good though Eh, I prefer curb your enthusiasm.
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Jan 9, 2015 20:14
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All Spaniards I knew agreed that Spanish television was poo poo. Most of them were huge fans of Sexo en Nueva York and House. I didn't know anyone whose favorite show was Spanish in origin. Edit: to be fair, the go-to entertainment of one of my bests pals while high was Pocoyo. Xibanya fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 20:50
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Most of US culture is garbage and is close to(?) being the most diverse nation on the planet. most of European culture is garbage aswell. just because it's old garbage doesn't make it any better or more interesting, hth
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Jan 9, 2015 21:02
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Guildencrantz posted:I'm not super familiar with French culture, but from my various investigations into history, I've noticed that Francophone political satire seems to have a tradition of being intentionally hamfisted, in a so-bad-it's-good way. At least, I know Revolution-era publications in the vein of Le Père Duchesne can put FYAD to shame with how cheerfully obscene they were, as could later 19th century stuff that I ran into. This is especially noticable compared to the ironic style of contemporary Anglophone satire or Germany's apparent wall of separation between the bawdy and the political. A late reply, and I'm not an expert on French culture by any means, but considering another newspaper just made this as a homage to Charlie Hebdo:  I'd say that yes, French satire is very much an offensive, hamfisted, "too soon" style that revels in shocking people. (If you haven't seen, the magazine Charb is using to protect himself against bullets is a previous Charlie Hebdo cover that was almost exactly the same with an Egyptian person getting shot while using a Quran as cover.)
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Jan 9, 2015 21:16
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Deltasquid posted:A late reply, and I'm not an expert on French culture by any means, but considering another newspaper just made this as a homage to Charlie Hebdo: And you can be sure the deceased staff of the newspaper would have loved that cover.
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Jan 9, 2015 21:40
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Deltasquid posted:A late reply, and I'm not an expert on French culture by any means, but considering another newspaper just made this as a homage to Charlie Hebdo: Finally a proper homage.
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Jan 9, 2015 21:44
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:If America was not responsible for reality TV (and arguably, Australia is - Sylvania Waters) then it is responsible for the prevailing socioeconomic conditions which led to it (ie. it's cheaper to import American poo poo than to create your own content, leading to the industry downsizing and arts funding being cut by governments, leading to networks and production companies needing to create content cheaply to sell advertising space, resulting in reality TV). So this is why Soviet media was renowned for its quality, and millions of people in Western Europe were tuning their radios to Communist stations for entertainment?
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Jan 10, 2015 01:31
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icantfindaname posted:So this is why Soviet media was renowned for its quality, and millions of people in Western Europe were tuning their radios to Communist stations for entertainment? A lot of Soviet film and animation is pretty awesome and the whole industry was severely afflicted by the collapse of Communism and the end of state funding. This happened in other areas too, Zagreb's animation was world renowned from the 1960s onward. Just so you know, everything wasn't just 'Worker and parasite'. Here's a whole thread of it. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 02:48
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Ex-Yu music, cinema, and even literature owns really hard and still produces good poo poo. You are an irredeemable chauvinist if you believe in some inherent superiority of ~~Muh Western Culture~~ aside from having more money to afford better production values and established art centers that didn't collapse when everything went to poo poo in the 90s. Also  if you think cultural imperialism is not a thing.
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Jan 10, 2015 12:00
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Guildencrantz posted:Actually while 99% of American culture is, in fact, garbage, that applies to everywhere.
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Jan 10, 2015 13:54
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SaltyJesus posted:Ex-Yu music, cinema, and even literature owns really hard and still produces good poo poo. You are an irredeemable chauvinist if you believe in some inherent superiority of ~~Muh Western Culture~~ aside from having more money to afford better production values and established art centers that didn't collapse when everything went to poo poo in the 90s. Well I'd agree with you and I didn't mean to imply that nothing of value currently comes out of Russia or Serbia or other former communist countries. For a smaller country like Serbia or Croatia state funding is important so that local culture is still able to compete in this modern world. What was it like exactly for the arts over the years of the meltdown of the Yugoslavian system?
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Jan 10, 2015 16:44
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No dude, I agree with you. I was talking to some of the other posters itt (mostly Nintendo Kid). I'm down to chat about ex-Yu arts but it would probably be best if we took it to the EE thread.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:05
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Do you remember what Russia gave us? Tatu. I think that's quite enough thank you 
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Jan 11, 2015 16:41
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icantfindaname posted:So this is why Soviet media was renowned for its quality, and millions of people in Western Europe were tuning their radios to Communist stations for entertainment? A lot of it actually is, soviet filmmakers were as pioneering as western ones and they made a lot of well known and loved movies. I'd say people in western europe weren't tuning in to soviet radio because FM doesn't carry for hundreds of miles.
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Jan 12, 2015 09:56
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HorseLord posted:A lot of it actually is, soviet filmmakers were as pioneering as western ones and they made a lot of well known and loved movies. Care to name any well-known and loved soviet movies? I watched Kin-dza-dza! and it was like slow torture.
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Jan 12, 2015 10:03
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on the left posted:Care to name any well-known and loved soviet movies? I watched Kin-dza-dza! and it was like slow torture. Literally seven posts up: khwarezm posted:A lot of Soviet film and animation is pretty awesome and the whole industry was severely afflicted by the collapse of Communism and the end of state funding. This happened in other areas too, Zagreb's animation was world renowned from the 1960s onward. Just so you know, everything wasn't just 'Worker and parasite'.
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Jan 12, 2015 10:58
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Truth be told, the atrociously bad Kin-Dza-Dza is the third post there.
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Jan 12, 2015 11:34
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Cerebral Bore posted:Literally seven posts up: I'm aware that goons made a thread about Soviet stuff, but I assumed the praise was detached and ironic. I've never heard Soviet cinema praised or loved unironically.
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Jan 12, 2015 12:40
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on the left posted:I'm aware that goons made a thread about Soviet stuff, but I assumed the praise was detached and ironic. I've never heard Soviet cinema praised or loved unironically. Not at all, there's a bunch of fantastic movies in there. "White Sun of the Desert", "The Diamond Arm", "Ivan Vasilievich", other Gaidai stuff, "12 chairs" etc, read it
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Jan 12, 2015 13:04
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on the left posted:Care to name any well-known and loved soviet movies? I watched Kin-dza-dza! and it was like slow torture.
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Jan 12, 2015 13:11
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on the left posted:I'm aware that goons made a thread about Soviet stuff, but I assumed the praise was detached and ironic. I've never heard Soviet cinema praised or loved unironically. There are many good or even excellent Soviet movies, of which the ones directed by Andrei Tarkovsky are probably the best example. Check "Solaris", "Stalker" or "Andrei Rublev".
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Jan 12, 2015 13:18
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on the left posted:I'm aware that goons made a thread about Soviet stuff, but I assumed the praise was detached and ironic. I've never heard Soviet cinema praised or loved unironically. So you're unironically telling me that you've never heard of a fellow called Sergei Eisenstein?
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Jan 12, 2015 14:18
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The Soviet system was very effective at producing a well-educated elite class of people who excelled in the arts and sciences, despite other atmospheric conditions of the Soviet system pulling in the other direction. Just because Soviet Communism didn't pan out, that doesn't at all mean it never produced anything of cultural or other value.
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Jan 12, 2015 14:24
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Disinterested posted:The Soviet system was very effective at producing a well-educated elite class of people who excelled in the arts and sciences, despite other atmospheric conditions of the Soviet system pulling in the other direction. Just because Soviet Communism didn't pan out, that doesn't at all mean it never produced anything of cultural or other value. It's been argued that this actually contributed to its decline and fall. The system kept a well-read, critical intelligentsia that was needed to mainain cultural and technological output, gave them decent privileges and held them up to the rest of society as People Who Know Their poo poo. The intelligentsia as a class, however, naturally tend to care about issues like free speech, political liberty and the notion of a rationally organized society, and thus over time became increasingly critical of the regime. In late communism it was pretty much a given that the intelligentsia was a "suspect element", but by that time it had made those cultures very focused on veiled social criticism, satire, clever ways to circumvent censorship, interest in "forbidden" works and other things that are bad for an oppressive power structure.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:29
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Really it's a shame they didn't incorporate the smart people they were creating into the ruling tiers of the party in a more constructive way. Then maybe they could have followed a better ideological path than revolution > war > i guess we have an empire now > i'm out of ideas, don't do anything > this sucks > whoops everything exploded.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:39
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Guildencrantz posted:It's been argued that this actually contributed to its decline and fall. The system kept a well-read, critical intelligentsia that was needed to mainain cultural and technological output, gave them decent privileges and held them up to the rest of society as People Who Know Their poo poo. The intelligentsia as a class, however, naturally tend to care about issues like free speech, political liberty and the notion of a rationally organized society, and thus over time became increasingly critical of the regime. In late communism it was pretty much a given that the intelligentsia was a "suspect element", but by that time it had made those cultures very focused on veiled social criticism, satire, clever ways to circumvent censorship, interest in "forbidden" works and other things that are bad for an oppressive power structure. I've heard artists and producers in the occupied eastern european countries especially loved to use their medium to criticise and mock the Soviets. They had to be very careful and subtle, though, since everything was thoroughly screened.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:46
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HorseLord posted:Really it's a shame they didn't incorporate the smart people they were creating into the ruling tiers of the party in a more constructive way. Then maybe they could have followed a better ideological path than revolution > war > i guess we have an empire now > i'm out of ideas, don't do anything > this sucks > whoops everything exploded. They did in the military, but cultural elites are harder to subordinate because they inherently require free expression.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:47
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Broken Cog posted:I've heard artists and producers in the occupied eastern european countries especially loved to use their medium to criticise and mock the Soviets. They had to be very careful and subtle, though, since everything was thoroughly screened. This is absolutely true. Subtle satire in 70's and 80's Eastern Europe was amazing, as it often is under limping dictatorships. Czechoslovakia probably had the most cred in that field, I'm of couse most familiar with the Polish output which was also terrific. Much of this is lost on Anglophone readers/viewers, because those cultures simply aren't familiar with the modes of expression necessitated by long-term pervasive censorship. People over here understood instantly which seemingly absurd joke or plotline was an allusion carefully crafted to fly under the radar. My favorite thing that was done was to just earnestly repeat the propaganda style with an absolutely straight face and no distortions, but in an obviously ironic context. Since it was plain to everyone that even the Party no longer believed in its own bullshit and no independent artist would sincerely do such an enthusiastic display of support, everyone knew it was mockery but the censors couldn't touch it without making idiots of themselves. Hence things like this masterpiece - an epic song about a newly unveiled statue of Soviet Marshal Konev, praising his heroism and with the lyrics adapted directly from a sycophantic interview with the sculptor. It's plainly absurd in context, but the censors couldn't go in and say "you can't call Marshal Konev a hero or quote our lapdog artists, we're shutting it down", they had to grind their teeth and take it. Slightly off topic: I'm not sure I remember correctly who wrote this, but it was some Western journalist who came to Poland in the 80's and realized communism was inevitably falling when he saw the cops disband a demonstration held by some students. The pransksters were waving red flags, holding up portraits of Lenin, singing communist songs and chanting slogans praising the Party's leadership, with zero outwardly seditious content. The moment the shields and clubs came in, the authorities basically officially recognized that the ruling ideology was dead as a genuine sentiment and nobody could do that poo poo except ironically.
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Jan 12, 2015 16:04
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on the left posted:Care to name any well-known and loved soviet movies? I watched Kin-dza-dza! and it was like slow torture. Sergei Eisenstein's films. Battleship Potemkin is influential as gently caress and considered one of the greatest films of all time. Andrei Tarkovsky's films.
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Jan 12, 2015 16:10
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Deltasquid posted:A late reply, and I'm not an expert on French culture by any means, but considering another newspaper just made this as a homage to Charlie Hebdo: Turns out this cover is not at all a homage in its intent, but rather meant as an insult. It comes from the adepts of an extreme-right guru called Alain Soral. I find the joke of the main cartoon itself to be hilarious, ("Charlie Hebdo sucks, it doesn't stop bullets"), but all the stuff that surrounds it is mean-spirited bullshit. The subheading is "bankrupt newspaper" instead of "irresponsible newspaper", two of the articles mentioned on the cover are "Charlie Hebdo and Hara Kiri [Charlie's predecessor], a treason of left-wing ideals", "Religion, a double standard [something about Jews]", and there's a false ad for a book about the life of Patrick Font, a former collaborator of Charlie Hebdo who went to prison for sexual contact with children (he's depicted holding a child's hand in the caricature).
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Jan 12, 2015 16:17
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Turns out this cover is not at all a homage in its intent, but rather meant as an insult. It comes from the adepts of an extreme-right guru called Alain Soral. Yeah, when thinking about it later, I had a feeling it might have been meant in earnest. It's hard to get the point of a lot of the surrounding stuff unless you understand the french. Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 16:22
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Disinterested posted:They did in the military, but cultural elites are harder to subordinate because they inherently require free expression. I think you should probably read my post again, champ.
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Jan 12, 2015 16:47
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