I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Darth Walrus posted:

I hear a lot about Lebanon being a disaster for the IDF, but I'm not au fait with the details. What went wrong, and how bad did it get?

They basically thought they could bomb whole Shia neighborhoods to rubble, and kill Hezbollah leadership, and thus push the Lebanese people into rejecting Hezbollah. After weeks of this, while simultaneously receiving the worst kind of rocket attacks ever from Lebanon (reaching all the way down to Haifa several times), and just a few days before a UN-mediated ceasefire, they decide to do a ground invasion. Into Southern Lebanon. The same Southern Lebanon that was a quagmire for almost 20 years until 2000, when Israel left in somewhat of a disarray. It went very poorly, and a lot of armor units got their asses handed to them.

This is 2-3 years after Iraq should have already shown that "Shock and Awe" is not a viable strategy.

They claim they managed to destroy a lot of rocket reserves and to have strategically weakened Hezbollah. I don't think the evidence bears this out; and for the first part, it's not like it's that hard to replenish rocket reserves (although allegedly, repeated Israeli bombings in Syria are supposed to target shipments from Iran, but how many would they catch?).

# ? Jan 20, 2015 02:04

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 20:37

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Absurd Alhazred posted:

It's probably still very fog-of-war/fog-of-classification right now. They can't really hide the funerals as much, so at some point it'll come out, but it's not surprising details are a bit dodgy about a Hezbollah-Iran delegation in Syria getting bombed by (allegedly) the Israelis.

My Imaginary GF posted:

Whats so weird? A high-level, pro-nuke hardliner presented himself as a target of oppoetunity. Eliminate him, and you seriously weaken the position of pro-nuke hardliners in Iran.

The weird thing, in my mind, is 'what were those guys doing so close to the Israeli border in the first place', apparently they were taken out with a barrage of hellfire missiles from an attack helicopter (presumably an apache?), it seems careless?

http://theiranproject.com/blog/2014/12/27/iranian-army-affiliated-twitter-account-our-soldiers-are-on-israels-borders/

Iranian army affiliated twitter account: Our soldiers are on Israel�s borders- https://twitter.com/IRGCnetwork/status/548152347528933376/photo/1

Darth Walrus posted:

I hear a lot about Lebanon being a disaster for the IDF, but I'm not au fait with the details. What went wrong, and how bad did it get?

People will soon post a link to the US army report about the hardships faced by the IDF in that campaign and about certain tactics used effectively by Hezbollah but the whole narrative about 'IDF getting its poo poo shoved in by Hezbollah' is really just wishful thinking by internet leftists, in my humble opinion that is, before we start a flamewar about me not celeberating Hezbollah's victory or something along those lines, just two points to consider:

1. From wikipedia: In a TV interview aired on Lebanon's New TV station on 27 August 2006, Nasrallah said that he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war: "We do not think, even one percent, that the capture led to a war at this time and of this magnitude. I'm convinced and sure that this war was planned and that the capture of these hostages was just their excuse to start their pre-planned war, but if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not."

2. Since 2006, Hezbollah has been very timid in its application of armed force against Israel, despite certain provocations by Israel along the way, most of the attacks it did carry were against targets abroad and their rocket attacks have almost completely ceased.

So, perhaps the IDF had a rough time on the battlefield but it seems like strategically the campaign itself yielded the results Israel wanted. Make of it what you will.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 02:12

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Darth Walrus posted:

What went wrong, and how bad did it get?

Someone is going to link the report shortly, but here's what I can give you offhand:

1. An army that focuses on police action (abusing the poor poor Palestinians) is not prepared for an actual war, even against a guerrilla army.

...

This is something people were screaming from the rooftops / in the desert well in the early 2000's, but nobody really gave a poo poo. Even right now, despite supposedly learning a lesson, the army and reservists don't get proper training exercises in sufficient quantity, and said training doesn't focus on what you'd need in an actual full-scale war.

2. The IDF Chief of Staff at the time was (for the first time ever) a former Air-force commander who was absolutely convinced that the airforce is going to be the decisive factor in a war against (again, emphasized) a largely guerrilla force, while the ground units and armor will just be along to mop up the remains. You may recognize this as an idea common amongst moronic airforce types throughout the latter half of the 20th century - and idea that keeps falling apart when confronted with reality for some reason.

3. A notion floated in the report is that the top levels of the army were in love with a military philosophy based on French literary theory that they (and the other levels) didn't quite understand and were too embarrassed to question. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to comment in depth, but the one practical implementation I can recall mentioned as undecipherable to the common officer offhand is the "Worm Procedure". I assure you that even the most common of grunts can figure out "go through houses rather than the space between them to flank the enemy without taking fire".

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jan 20, 2015

# ? Jan 20, 2015 07:02

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Rather than the same old report from eight years ago, I'm going to link something a little more recent - a report issued last month from the Israeli government, suggesting that the issues seen in the Lebanon War have not been fixed and that the IDF is not even slightly prepared to wage a real war. To summarize, the IDF is neglecting various upkeep activities (like maintenance and training) for the ground forces, resulting in poorly-trained officers managing even more poorly-trained soldiers in poorly-organized units with poorly-maintained equipment and a poor logistics system for replenishing their supplies.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4609198,00.html

quote:

IDF reservists in shabby shape, comptroller says in damning report

After Israel�s 2006 war with Hezbollah, the IDF vowed to bring its reservists up to shape, but new data shows Israel�s reserve forces are still short on training and gear.

Over eight years have passed since the Second Lebanon War, but a new report shows the painful lessons learnt during that bloody war have not yet been fully internalized, and the IDF's reserve force is still riddled with problems.

The report, penned by the State Comptroller Yossef Shapira and released Monday, found serious deficiencies in the training of reserve units, particularly of ground forces, one of the main lessons learnt from the Second Lebanon War. The report also claimed that the supply and maintenance units supporting reservists were far from ready, and found major shortcomings in the IDF�s overall level of readiness. Moreover, it found the military did not properly report the true state of its forces to the political echelon, hindering civilian oversight over the army.

The comptroller wrote that in July 2012, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Benny Gantz said that the reserve force holds special importance "both because it is an essential supplement to operational ability and allows routine training of active combat units, and also because it is a significant pillar of the IDF's ability to act decisively during wartime."

In reality, however, things are quite different, and the comptroller found a failure to comply with training protocols and quotas. In 2010, ground forces began implementing a new three-year plan for training in order to expand the scope of training for reserve field units. The report showed that this training model for the years 2010-2012 was not properly implemented, specifically when it came to training at the brigade level.

To make matters worse, some of the battalion training did not even take place, while others saw cutbacks or suffered from a lack of resources. Furthermore, the report found that the training plan for 2013 were cut across the board, and according to IDF response to the report's findings, the training of ground reserve forces was halted altogether in June of 2014.

The comptroller also found that all division commanders who finished their tenure between 2011 and 2013, and 70 percent of commanders of reserves brigades and commanders of artillery formations, who left during those years, filled their roles for a period of less than three years.

The comptroller noted that their short lived tenures resulted in a situation in which many division and brigade commanders did not actually lead their units for an entire training cycle, thus creating a situation in which commanders were unprepared to lead their division or brigade during wartime.

The comptroller also found a failure to maintain continuity in training in accordance with the battalion training model. He explained that manpower in reserve units varied from one brigade to another, and could reach well beyond the standard amount. The report also found that the ground forces earmark a budget to train a maximum of 80 percent of the total manpower.

Shapira said such a situation did not ensure that a significant portion of reservists in the battalion would maintain proper training. Moreover, it indicated that some battalion soldiers were not training according to the requirements of their units.

Both can damage reservists operational preparedness and create a situation in which reserve soldiers called up in wartime might not actually be those who underwent the required training. The duration, content, and quality of training were also found lacking. The comptroller said it was impossible under the circumstances to train for the required competence level. The report found many disparities in fitness and readiness in ground reserve units, which could damage their ability to carry out their missions.

One of the main lessons from the Second Lebanon War concerned the dire state of military gear for reservists, with some claiming after the fighting had ended that they were forced to go to battle without helmets or proper equipment.

Regarding the preparedness of support supply and maintenance units in the reserve force, the comptroller found serious lapses. Among other things, he found that there was a shortage of enlisted manpower, vehicles no longer fit for duty and tires whose expiration date had passed in each of the regional commands and a lag in periodic maintenance work on armored combat vehicles.

An IDF investigation in February 2013 found that there was also an inability to conduct regular maintenance on equipment during peacetime, which has created a "threat" to the ability to support a transition from peacetime to an emergency.

The comptroller also found a lack of communication with the highest command in the IDF.

The report said there was no coherent and consistent language for presenting data on army preparedness to the different branches of the IDF, and that the assessment was not shown to the Deputy Chief of Staff, the General Staff, and the Chief of Staff.

The comptroller noted that this made it doubtful that IDF's preparedness model could fill its role as "an instrument to present an accurate picture of IDF preparedness for war" and whether the model could be effective in successfully monitoring the situation, and as a tool that affects decision-making and planning in the IDF.

The report further found that IDF orders do not address the level of military preparedness required of ground reserves units in wartime. The ability of both the cabinet and the Knesset to monitor the reserve force's level of preparedness is compromised by the army's disregard for obligations set by the Reserve Service Law.

The comptroller advised the chief of staff to set a "minimum budget" to maintain the reserves force's competence, noting such budget should not depend on the size of the overall defense budget. Shapira added that IDF must urgently attend to the maintenance situation in reserve divisions, to immediately address existing gaps, and ensure that data is suitably presented to senior commanders. He added that the defense minister and chief of staff should work to improve reporting to the cabinet on the level of preparedness of reserve troops.

The Defense Ministry said in response that "in the middle of 2014, the defense minister conducted a forum to update and approve IDF plans, during which he insisted on compliance with the IDF's goals of preparedness to the challenges the army is to face in the coming years. The minister also stressed different requirements for maintaining and attending to the reserve force.

"Ahead of the 2015 work year, there will be an effort to determine a budget designated for training the reservists, relying on advice by Brig. Gen. Roni Noma. It should be noted that the scope of training is derived from the size of the budget, and the lack of an approved state budget, and indeed a required defense budget, will make it difficult for security forces to fully implement this move. On the issue of regular reports on the reserves' readiness, work has begun already in 2014 and will be completed in 2015."

Army officials said that "the findings and recommendations in the State Comptroller's report relate to the three-year training cycle that started in 2010. During the years 2010-2014, the training cycle did not go ahead as planned due to budgetary and operational circumstances (Operation Pillar of Defense, Operation Protective Edge, etc.).

"In addition to that, it needs to be stated that during the second half of 2014, a new plan was made for the last quarter of 2014 which includes most of the training planned and cancelled as part of the cutbacks in 2014. It should also be noted that the continuous decline in the logistics corps' preparedness between the years 2010-2014, with an emphasis on regional logistics units, was a result of cuts in reserve duty days."

The comptroller also examined army ability to protect sensitive facilities from existing threats. The inspection found that most of the decisions made by the Ministerial Committee on Home Front Issues in May 2011 were not implemented.

"In the current situation, the same problems that have existed since 2004 remain of protecting civilian facilities in Israel from existing threats and threats anticipated in coming years," the Comptroller wrote in his report.

The report also cited a previous report, in which the State Comptroller's Office warned that because there is no comprehensive plan on a national level for the protection of sensitive facilities, there was also no evaluation made of the existing threats or an assessment of possible scenarios and how to protect the facilities from said threats. The current report found that despite the existing threat on these facilities, the failure was not corrected.

In March 2012, the prime minister ordered a list to be made of sensitive facilities, but in reality only a handful of the facilities were installed with protection.

The comptroller noted that the prime minister ought to advance discussions to formulate a security plan for these sensitive facilities.

The Defense Ministry said in response: "The defense establishment mapped out the variety of vital infrastructure in the State of Israel, in accordance with their influence on national strength. Criterions agreed upon in cooperation with the National Security Council were defined for each type of facility.

"The list of facilities has been completed as part of a government decision, and the work of protecting these facilities has already started, based on operational priority. The defense establishment works to coordinate with different government ministries (specifically with the Energy and Water Ministry) and infrastructure companies to arrange a multi-year plan, including budgeting the plan by all involved."

The IDF Spokesman said in response: "The Home Front Command's assessment on the time it will take to install protection in the said facilities includes the installation work only. This assessment does not include issues under the government's responsibility and under that of private companies, such as how long it would take to secure the budget and resources needed for the protection installation and the time it would take to get the facility operators' consent to do the protection work."

# ? Jan 20, 2015 07:18

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Main Paineframe posted:

Rather than the same old report from eight years ago, I'm going to link something a little more recent - a report issued last month from the Israeli government, suggesting that the issues seen in the Lebanon War have not been fixed and that the IDF is not even slightly prepared to wage a real war. To summarize, the IDF is neglecting various upkeep activities (like maintenance and training) for the ground forces,resulting in poorly-trained officers managing even more poorly-trained soldiers in poorly-organized units with poorly-maintained equipment and a poor logistics system for replenishing their supplies.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4609198,00.html

The bolded sounds like the perfect recipe for an army only capable of war crimes. Something I guess their repeat actions in Palestine have shown out.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 07:47

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.638038?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

quote:

Argentine prosecutor's death: The latest act in the Iran�Israel saga
Alberto Nisman was the Argentine prosecutor investigating Iran's hand in the 1992 and 1994 bombings of Jewish targets;
Imad Mughneiyeh, father of the Hezbollah commander killed in Syria on Sunday, was suspected of organizing the Argentina
attack.
By Anshel Pfeffer 12:45 20.01.15 0

The murky circumstances surrounding the death of Argentine prosecutor Alberto Nisman early Monday morning in Buenos Aires were hardly
cleared up by the swift official verdict that it was suicide. The fact that he died the night before he was due to testify before the parliament over
an alleged cover�up by President Cristina Fernandez de Kirschner of the 1994 bombing of a local Jewish community center only makes his demise more suspicious.
While there may not be a direct connection, the death of Nisman, a Jew, just a few hours after an attack on a convoy in the southern part of Syria,
which has been attributed by the media to Israel and resulted in the deaths of at least 12 senior Hezbollah and Iranian commanders, makes it
even more poignant.
The massive car bomb which tore apart the premises of the Asociaci�n Mutual Israelita Argentina (AMIA) on July 18, 1994, killing 85 people, most of them Jewish, was the worst mass murder of Jews in the Diaspora since the Holocaust. The perpetrators were never brought to justice but
the consensus among the investigators and in the Western intelligence community was that the attack was masterminded by the Iranian
government and carried out by members of Hezbollah; at one stage indictments were served and Interpol arrest warrants issued. But
governments came and went, and not every president or administration was so eager to expose the foreign powers involved or their local
collaborators.
Se�ora Kirschner, who has been leading her country on a path of increasing animosity toward the United States and its allies, in a populist
attempt to cover her government�s financial mismanagement, is such a president. Two years ago she instructed her foreign minister H�ctor
Timerman to sign an agreement with the Iranian regime to establish a �truth commission� that would cooperate in finding the culprits of the
AMIA bombing.
Israel objected strenuously and its ambassador, Dorit Shavit ,was called in for a fierce reprimand from Timerman, who lectured her that �Israel
doesn�t speak in the name of the Jewish people and doesn�t represent it,� and added that �Israel�s desire to be involved in the issue only gives
ammunition to anti�Semites who accuse Jews of dual loyalty.� As proof of Israel�s lack of standing in the case, he also said that �Jews who wanted
or want to live in Israel moved there, and they are its citizens; those who live in Argentina are Argentine citizens.�
And Timerman knows of what he was speaking. Thirty�five years earlier, his own father, Jacobo, a left�wing journalist and prominent Zionist, had
been arrested and tortured by Argentina's military junta. Israel�s diplomatic intervention was key to his release and departure from the country �
without which he would have likely been one of the thousands of �disappeared� people. Timerman Sr. lived for five years in Israel, where, as a
citizen and journalist, he was critical also of his new country�s policies. He returned to Buenos Aires when the generals were swept from power.
Despite his disappointment with the Jewish state, he continued to refer to himself as an Israeli citizen.
The Timermans are not the only example in this whole story of a son following uneasily in his father�s footsteps. In February 1992 when Hezbollah secretary general Abbas al�Musawi was assassinated by Israel in a helicopter gunship attack in South Lebanon, the organization�s
young field commander, Imad Mughniyeh was tasked with working with the Iranians on exacting revenge.
Mughniyeh is not known for certain to have traveled to Argentina himself, but he was initially fingered by the authorities there as having
orchestrated the bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires a month after Musawi�s death; 29 people were killed in that attack, among them
four Israelis. This was the blueprint for the AMIA bombing two�and�a�half years later, also believed to have been Mughniyeh�s handiwork, and
for the same reasons.
It would be another 13 years until Mughniyeh would be officially accused by the Argentine government for involvement in the bombing, with
Nisman leading the investigation by this point. Mughniyeh was then Hezbollah�s military commander, shuttling between Beirut and Tehran, one
of the world�s most�wanted terrorists. The Interpol �red notice� was just another meaningless formality for him. A few months later it wasn�t the
police who caught up with him, but another assassin�s bomb, planted in his jeep outside the Iranian embassy in Damascus. His 18�year�old son,
Jihad was catapulted into the Hezbollah leadership's fast�track.
In the intervening years, Nisman saw how his country�s eagerness to bring the AMIA perpetrators to justice ebbed and waned. The �truth
commission� was never convened; Kirchner�s government more interested in oil and grain deals with Tehran. Some of the Iranians allegedly
involved in 1994 were promoted to senior positions. Last January Israel�s former ambassador to Argentina, Yitzhak Aviran, claimed that Israel
had exacted its own rough justice: �The large majority of those responsible are no longer of this world, and we did it ourselves.�
Jihad Mughniyeh was a baby when Musawi was assassinated (along with his wife and five�year�old son). Senior Israeli officials involved in that
1992 operation have since said that the sequence of events kicked off by his violent death, the level of retribution exacted by Hezbollah in the two
bombings in Argentina, and the rise of a new and much more ambitious Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, along with his deadly efficient
lieutenant Mughniyeh � all these were hardly worth the earlier successful strike.
Hezbollah figurehead
On Sunday, it was the turn of 25�year�old Jihad Mughinyeh to be on the receiving end of what was an (apparently) Israeli missile. His official role
at the time of his death � commander of Hezbollah�s covert operations on the Golan Heights in Syria � may be an exaggerated description of the
authority vested in the young man, and there are more senior Lebanese and Iranian operatives, some of them killed as well in the strike, but he
was at the least a figurehead, featuring in Hezbollah propaganda. And he certainly paid for that with his life. Brigadier General Mohammed
Allahdadi of the Iran�s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, who was also killed in the missile attack on Sunday, certainly had authority as his
country�s senior representative in Syria.
Hezbollah�s revenge is usually slow and unexpected � it came twice to Buenos Aires, and after Mughniyeh Sr.�s death, it took the Shi'ite
organization four years until it blew up a bus carrying Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, killing six. If this selection of targets is anything to go by, the
civilians who could pay with their lives could be Israelis or Diaspora Jews anywhere.
Conspiracy theorists will try and connect between the killing of the Mughniyeh Jr. and Nisman�s death 14 hours later. While it is quite likely that
the official declaration of suicide is part of yet another cover�up and that foul play was involved, even for Hezbollah the ordering, planning and
carrying out of an assassination of a target surrounded by a posse of security guards � while apparently leaving no trace afterward, in such a short
time � seems like an extremely tall order.
But long before the death of the son of the man who took part in those murders over two decades ago, Nisman�s was already on more than one
hit�list. His insistence, some would say obsession, in exposing both the culprits and those who over the years have tried to make the AMIA
bombing simply go away, angered the most powerful people in Buenos Aires and Iran, and potentially jeopardized billions in trade deal between
them.
One day someone will write a book or a play on the confrontation between the two proud Argentine Jews, Alberto Nisman and Hector Timerman.
Their lives embodied so many tensions, dilemmas and tragedies related to a tenuous Jewish existence in a dangerous environment. Nisman,
dedicated years of his life and perhaps died when trying to uncover the truth behind the death of so many Jews, taking on the establishment in his
homeland. Timerman, the human rights defender whose father was saved from the clutches of a previous government of Argentina � thanks to
the dirty dealings between it and Israel � who then joined another government, turning his back on the Jewish community and making common
cause with one of the worst regimes in the world. Both men claimed above all to be Argentine patriots and will be remembered by history as two
conflicted Jews

(just an interesting article I thought, c/ped to avoid the paywall)

# ? Jan 20, 2015 12:14

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Xander77 posted:

2. The IDF Chief of Staff at the time was (for the first time ever) a former Air-force commander who was absolutely convinced that the airforce is going to be the decisive factor in a war against (again, emphasized) a largely guerrilla force, while the ground units and armor will just be along to mop up the remains. You may recognize this as an idea common amongst moronic airforce types throughout the latter half of the 20th century - and idea that keeps falling apart when confronted with reality for some reason.

That idea goes back even to the 20s. A lot of the colonial powers were trying to save money and thought that they could bomb insurgents out and it would be cheaper because they weren't exposing soldiers to fire.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 12:28

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

(c/ped to avoid the paywall)

At long last.

Panzeh posted:

That idea goes back even to the 20s. A lot of the colonial powers were trying to save money and thought that they could bomb insurgents out and it would be cheaper because they weren't exposing soldiers to fire.

Really? I haven't heard much on the subject. In fact, I thought a lot of airforce types wound up unemployed after WWI due to decreased demand, which is how you wind up with your stock "pilot adventurer" character as far abroad as China / Manchuria.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 13:03

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Xander77 posted:

At long last.
Really? I haven't heard much on the subject. In fact, I thought a lot of airforce types wound up unemployed after WWI due to decreased demand, which is how you wind up with your stock "pilot adventurer" character as far abroad as China / Manchuria.

Take a look at what happened with the British in Iraq in the 20's.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 13:25

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Disinterested posted:

Take a look at what happened with the British in Iraq in the 20's.

Hah. I was taught... well, read... that Churchill authorized the use of chemical weapons against the communist savages. Apparently that never happened?

History can get bent into some really weird shapes.

Edit - Ok, both happened, it's just that one is mostly forgotten even in articles specifically discussing Churchill's use of chemical weapons in Iraq. Welp.

...

The odd part is that I forgot to ask "was anyone ever actually convinced to turn against their government via a bombing campaign" in my original post. Guess that's kind of an answer?

emanresu tnuocca posted:

In some minor 'future coalition' news, Shas and Lapid have both come out to the press today to say that despite ideological differences and smear campaigns they're actually pretty chill with one another and would be willing to sit in the same coalition after the elections.

Just when I thought my "gently caress this guy" couldn't get any higher.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jan 20, 2015

# ? Jan 20, 2015 13:51

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

In some minor 'future coalition' news, Shas and Lapid have both come out to the press today to say that despite ideological differences and smear campaigns they're actually pretty chill with one another and would be willing to sit in the same coalition after the elections.

Together both parties are expected to hold about 15 seats which is a sizable chunk, both parties would probably be willing to join any possible coalition so this could get interesting. The Likud/Bennet block is still significantly stronger than the Avoda led block though.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 13:51

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Xander77 posted:

Hah. I was taught... well, read... that Churchill authorized the use of chemical weapons against the communist savages. Apparently that never happened?

History can get bent into some really weird shapes.

Edit - Ok, both happened, it's just that one is mostly forgotten even in articles specifically discussing Churchill's use of chemical weapons in Iraq. Welp.

...

The odd part is that I forgot to ask "was anyone ever actually convinced to turn against their government via a bombing campaign" in my original post. Guess that's kind of an answer?

Don't think the methodology was lost on Saddam.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 13:57

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

emanresu tnuocca posted:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.638038?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

(just an interesting article I thought, c/ped to avoid the paywall)

That article isn't phrased very clearly -- did Israel object to the forming of the Truth Commission, or to the fact that the commision was supposed to be a cooperative effort with Iran?

# ? Jan 20, 2015 14:33

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

botany posted:

That article isn't phrased very clearly -- did Israel object to the forming of the Truth Commission, or to the fact that the commision was supposed to be a cooperative effort with Iran?

Not sure, was trying to find sources discussing this in Hebrew that might clarify but I couldn't. It would seem to me that given that Israel claims that Iran is at least partially responsible (an accusation which seems to be somewhat corroborated by the argentine investigation) that the cooperation with Iran was the problem.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 15:10

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

quote:

Asked if Israel expected Iranian or Hezbollah retaliation for the air strike, the source said: "They are almost certain to respond. We are anticipating that, but I think it's a fair assumption that a major escalation is not in the interest of either side."

Troops and civilians in northern Israel are on heightened alert and Israel has reportedly deployed an Iron Dome rocket interceptor unit near the Syrian border.

"We did not expect the outcome in terms of the stature of those killed - certainly not the Iranian general," the source said. "We thought we were hitting an enemy field unit that was on its way to carry out an attack on us at the frontier fence."

"We got the alert, we spotted the vehicle, identified it was an enemy vehicle and took the shot. We saw this as a limited tactical operation."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4617260,00.html

# ? Jan 20, 2015 17:02

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

It's time to knife like it's 1991! :smith:

# ? Jan 21, 2015 08:30

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Xander77 posted:

At long last.
Really? I haven't heard much on the subject. In fact, I thought a lot of airforce types wound up unemployed after WWI due to decreased demand, which is how you wind up with your stock "pilot adventurer" character as far abroad as China / Manchuria.

I don't know about after WWI, but the cult of the bomber was definitely gaining ground after WWII after birthed by enthusiastic generals who saw the air superiority we had over late-war Germany and convinced themselves that relentless strategic bombing would inevitably break the German will to fight even without needing to advance ground troops. Korean War caught the US in a particularly bad position because Truman had wanted to cut back military spending after WWII, and the Air Force had managed to convince him that all future wars would be fought exclusively by USAF strategic bombers carrying nuclear weapons and therefore he should direct all of his budget cuts at the Navy and Army. Although those ideas didn't fare well during the Cold War, bombers are a really attractive option against insurgents because they often have no aircraft and no anti-air capabilities capable of shooting down modern bombers, so Western nations can just cruise in and bomb the enemy territory whenever they like, without needing to commit to an ongoing campaign or risk taking casualties. For the budget-conscious IDF, which has little real need to use ground forces for anything and is terrified of the political effects of even a few casualties, ground troops are the perfect place to cut corners, as long as the bomber pilots can still sortie for punitive or "surgical" strikes at the whim of a politician or general.

# ? Jan 21, 2015 09:01

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Main Paineframe posted:

I don't know about after WWI, but the cult of the bomber was definitely gaining ground after WWII

Yeah, that's what I said?

To be fair, air-power is the way of the future .

# ? Jan 21, 2015 12:03

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

Meanwhile in Washington D.C., Republican Speaker of the House John Boehner has invited Netanyahu to address a joint session of Congress on the threat posed by radical Islam and Iran. The session was originally scheduled for Feb. 11 but on Netanyahu's request it was moved to March 3, ~~to fall closer to the election~~ so he can attend an AIPAC conference around the same time. The White House has announced that Obama will not be meeting with Netanyahu on the stated grounds that they don't want to appear to be influencing the Israeli elections, which is (A) a pretty obvious rebuke to the GOP for doing this and (B) an equally obvious snub of Netanyahu who is clearly just in town to take a giant poo poo on the Obama administration as a favor to Republicans.

I was wondering what the Israeli posters thought about this. If he's running as the adult in the room this will be a pretty good campaign ad--Bibi the decider addressing a joint session of the US Congress and taking the President of the United States to task.

# ? Jan 22, 2015 22:32

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

EvanSchenck posted:

who is clearly just in town to take a giant poo poo on the Obama administration as a favor to Republicans.

Lets get something clear--Bibi doesn't need to poo poo on Obama as a favor to Republicans, Bibi enjoys making GBS threads on Obama because Bibi and Obama hate each other.

# ? Jan 22, 2015 22:35

Ratoslov: Feb 15, 2012; Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

My Imaginary GF posted:

Lets get something clear--Bibi doesn't need to poo poo on Obama as a favor to Republicans, Bibi enjoys making GBS threads on Obama because Bibi and Obama hate each other.

As has every major political figure to ever interact with Bibi. The man is simply a rear end in a top hat.

# ? Jan 22, 2015 23:10

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

It's still a terrible piece of long term planning for Bibi to cosy to one party. Right now Israel is a bipartisan political football in American politics, which is good for Israel. Being a partisan political football in American politics is potentially catastrophic for Israel.

# ? Jan 22, 2015 23:41

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

My Imaginary GF posted:

Lets get something clear--Bibi doesn't need to poo poo on Obama as a favor to Republicans,

It's why they invited him. If they hadn't invited him, he wouldn't be coming to town.

Disinterested posted:

It's still a terrible piece of long term planning for Bibi to cosy to one party. Right now Israel is a bipartisan political football in American politics, which is good for Israel. Being a partisan political football in American politics is potentially catastrophic for Israel.

Nah. This would seem to be the case but there's no risk as long as the political incentives for both parties are all in the direction of supporting Israel. There's no percentage in doing anything else, which is why the Obama administration has consistently supported Israel and opposed any show of initiative by the Palestinians. The problem is basically that Obama frowns while doing so. On the other hand he's also been inching towards pragmatic engagement with Iran because US and Iranian interests are beginning to align in a few different areas, and Netanyahu is bound to find that threatening. The Obama administration showed with Cuba that they're willing to flip the foreign policy script. So if shamelessly exchanging BJs with the Republican Party can help him influence Democrats away from that, with no real downside risk, of course he should do it. The free election advertising is a bonus.

# ? Jan 23, 2015 00:36

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

EvanSchenck posted:

It's why they invited him. If they hadn't invited him, he wouldn't be coming to town.

Nah. This would seem to be the case but there's no risk as long as the political incentives for both parties are all in the direction of supporting Israel. There's no percentage in doing anything else, which is why the Obama administration has consistently supported Israel and opposed any show of initiative by the Palestinians. The problem is basically that Obama frowns while doing so. On the other hand he's also been inching towards pragmatic engagement with Iran because US and Iranian interests are beginning to align in a few different areas, and Netanyahu is bound to find that threatening. The Obama administration showed with Cuba that they're willing to flip the foreign policy script. So if shamelessly exchanging BJs with the Republican Party can help him influence Democrats away from that, with no real downside risk, of course he should do it. The free election advertising is a bonus.

I see it the opposite way. The situation in America is so favourable to America that it's reckless to do anything that upsets it even a little.

# ? Jan 23, 2015 00:38

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

It's official. The Arab Parties have united into a single list for the upcoming Knesset, called "The Joint List", or . Some of the seats are set, others will be rotated if they get enough votes for that to happen. They do have Dov Henin, a popular Jewish Knesset member from Hadash in 8th place, which means he's likely to get in if polls are to be believed. Even likelier is Haneen Zo'abi, at 7th place, which is going to make a lot of racist Jews very angry.

ETA: Here's a full list, from the Ynet piece:

1. Aiman Uda (Hadash)

2. Masud Ganaim (Islamic Movement)

3. Jamal Zahalka (Balad)

4. Ahmad Tibi (UAL-Ta�al)

5. Aida Touma-Sliman (Hadash)

6. Abd al-Hakim Hajj Yahya (Islamic Movement)

7. Hanin Zoabi (Balad)

8. Dov Khenin (Hadash)

9. Taleb Abu Arar (Islamic Movement)

10. Basel Ghattas (Balad)

11. Yosef Jabareen (Hadash)

12. UAL-Ta'al - Balad (rotation)

13. Hadash - Balad (rotation)

14. Hadash - Balad (rotation)

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jan 23, 2015

# ? Jan 23, 2015 06:20

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

Sometimes I wonder just how much American support for Israel is just lip service paid as the price of participating in public life. There are ardent and true zionists in the Republican and Democratic parties, but some also show signs of resentment - I suspect Obama isn't dumb enough to actually think what Israel is doing is fair, and his tepid disagreement with some parts of the settler project is already seen as a modern day dolchtoss. Failing to exercise the UN veto whenever Israel asks for it would probably lead to impeachment talk.

If Israel were ever to overplay their hand and accidentally snub America as a whole rather than a particular administration, or overreach in their conduct with the Palestinians, and in doing so provide some kind of opening these politicians could safely exploit, it'd be fascinating to see just who comes out.

# ? Jan 23, 2015 06:32

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Xander77 posted:

Yeah, that's what I said?

To be fair, air-power is the way of the future .

What the hell did I just watch? (was still entertaining and funny even if I didn't understand a word of it)

# ? Jan 23, 2015 10:31

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

KomradeX posted:

What the hell did I just watch? (was still entertaining and funny even if I didn't understand a word of it)

It's a Ukrainian cartoon about a fat general who fights futilely against a cockroach invasion. The critters are so persistent that he has nightmares about them. While going to buy a new can of insecticide, the merchant suggest a new gizmo instead, a remote control thing that allows to control insects, and put it on the "cockroach" setting. Fat general goes back home, uses the remote to gather all the roaches, then at the last moment, instead of stomping them all to death, he decides to use them as toy soldiers instead. He goes out in the countryside and plans an assault against the house of another general, but is attacked by various flying insects, and is forced to flee, accidentally destroying his remote control in his retreat. Finding shelter in the house he was planning to attack with the roaches, he finds another general, with another remote, who controls the bugs as if they were an air force. Air force general organizes a parade, and fat general salutes it. The End.

There's no real need to understand any word at all.

# ? Jan 23, 2015 11:08

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Combative speech at the Knesset by MK Stav Shaffir, of whom I've posted many times in this and the past thread (Hebrew with almost accurate English subtitles):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfyFlK5bkPU

4th place in the Labor/Hatnuah "Zionist Camp" list. She was 8th place in the last Labor list, so she seems to be going places.

# ? Jan 23, 2015 18:52

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Cat Mattress posted:

It's a Ukrainian cartoon about a fat general who fights futilely against a cockroach invasion. The critters are so persistent that he has nightmares about them. While going to buy a new can of insecticide, the merchant suggest a new gizmo instead, a remote control thing that allows to control insects, and put it on the "cockroach" setting. Fat general goes back home, uses the remote to gather all the roaches, then at the last moment, instead of stomping them all to death, he decides to use them as toy soldiers instead. He goes out in the countryside and plans an assault against the house of another general, but is attacked by various flying insects, and is forced to flee, accidentally destroying his remote control in his retreat. Finding shelter in the house he was planning to attack with the roaches, he finds another general, with another remote, who controls the bugs as if they were an air force. Air force general organizes a parade, and fat general salutes it. The End.

There's no real need to understand any word at all.

There wasn't, I was able to follow the story, but it was very weird. Great, but very weird

# ? Jan 24, 2015 00:48

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Combative speech at the Knesset by MK Stav Shaffir, of whom I've posted many times in this and the past thread (Hebrew with almost accurate English subtitles):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfyFlK5bkPU

4th place in the Labor/Hatnuah "Zionist Camp" list. She was 8th place in the last Labor list, so she seems to be going places.

quote:

Shaffir was outspoken during the 2014 Operation Protective Shield in Gaza. When it was reported that shelters in the hard hit city of Ashdod, were excluding women from �mens� only� shelters, Shaffir filed an urgent complaint with the Religious Affairs Ministry, demanding to put an immediate halt to the segregation which was promptly ended.

Wow, way to stand up for the disadvantaged there, Stav Shaffir. Way to look out for those affected by war.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 01:11

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

SedanChair posted:

Wow, way to stand up for the disadvantaged there, Stav Shaffir. Way to look out for those affected by war.

Are we still playing this game where people come in and are shocked, utterly shocked that most Israeli Jews don't give two shits about Palestinians, and that reflects itself in the Knesset? At least she actually cared enough about those constituents to make sure they were safe, as opposed to only caring about lobbyists, like some elected officials. Moreover, wide availability of shelters is part of what makes the various rockets not very effective at killing civilians. (Aside from many of them being very weak tea)

Anyway, as I've pointed out before in this thread, and as she refers to in her speech, she's repeatedly used her parliamentary privilege to expose how money was being siphoned into the settlement project, which makes the competition between Green Line and West Bank citizens all the more clear, and therefore, increases the perception of the economic price of the Occupation. That is a positive thing and good on her; moreover, her rise is a positive development for future Israeli policy, even though I wouldn't vote anything to the right of Meretz if my life depended on it, and I see no reason not to laud people when they do good, even if they don't do all the good I would like them to.

ETA: Bah, I should have posted this when I posted the response: apparently when a Druze takes off his uniform, he's back to being an Arab:

---

Druze university student was severely beaten Thursday near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, apparently after the assailants heard the young man speaking in Arabic. The attackers were reportedly Jewish and wore skull-caps, according to Ynet.

Twenty-one-year-old Tommy Hasson said about ten men assaulted him with broken glass bottles and other sharp objects. He added that the attackers had initially assaulted him verbally and spat on him after he conversed with a friend in Arabic.

...

Hasson had recently moved to Jerusalem from his home town of Daliyat al-Karmel in the north to study music. Before being discharged from the army three months ago, Hasson served in the Druze Herev battalion and was later assigned a position at the President�s Residence.

President Reuven Rivlin on Friday called Hasson�s father to express support for the family and condemn the incident.

�Tommy, a Druze who was recently released from army service as the military secretary to the president, is hospitalized at Hadassah Hospital after being severely beaten last night,� Rivlin wrote on his Facebook page later Friday, in a post accompanied by a photo of Hasson and himself. It was not clear when the picture was taken.

�I talked to his father this morning and could not believe my ears. A man who is integrally linked to this country, attacked with such terrible violence. We are brothers, and all of us must condemn terrible behavior like that.�

---

Rivlin is also not someone for whose party I would ever vote, but it's really big of a president coming from Likud to be so consistently anti-racism; he's definitely better than a lot of the poo poo-show presidents Israel's had in past years.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jan 24, 2015

# ? Jan 24, 2015 01:18

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

SedanChair posted:

Wow, way to stand up for the disadvantaged there, Stav Shaffir. Way to look out for those affected by war.

Gender discrimination is actually a big problem in Israel, with the more conservative religious types advocating for outright gender segregation. There are neighborhoods where women have to sit at the back of the bus and the sidewalk on one side of the street is "men-only". I mean sure, it's not quite as bad as the brutal slaughter of innocents, but would it have been right to criticize a black woman in the US for complaining about racism while US troops were sealing off Fallujah and shooting everything that moves (leading to roughly 1300 civilian deaths in two one-month periods)? It may be hard to comprehend for us foreigners, who mostly don't know nor care about any issues in Israel other than the one affecting the international community, but in Israel domestic issues are seen as just as important (if not more) as foreign policy issues, even if those foreign policy issues happen to be indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

I don't know what Stav Shaffir thinks about the I/P conflict, but she probably cares less about it than she does about the fact that she could very well be attacked by a stone-throwing mob for having the wrong hairdo or wearing the wrong clothes in certain neighborhoods, and some rabbis have claimed that it is against Jewish law for women to drive cars or attend exercise classes. Bookstores in Haredi neighborhoods have been forced by endless harassment to allow religious groups to decide which books they do or don't carry, and one 8-year-old girl became world-famous after Haredi men spat on her and called her a prostitute while she was walking to elementary school. In fact, Israeli ultra-Orthodox women have just formed a new polticial party, Bizchutan/B'Zechutan/Ubezchutan (depending on which media outlet you ask) in order to fight for their rights, since the existing ultra-Orthodox parties are men-only parties which ban women from having any political involvement in the parties at all, despite the fact that women are usually the primary breadwinners in Haredi families, since Haredi society considers it wrong for men to work.

It's easy for us to say that the oppression and slaughter of Palestinians should be the primary concern of all Israelis and that no other group's rights should be considered until the injustices against Palestine are resolved, but gender relations in religiously-conservative areas of Israel are seriously hosed, and who the gently caress are we to tell Israeli women that they can't care about their own oppression until the oppression of another group is halted?

# ? Jan 24, 2015 05:53

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

She's fulfilling an important role and putting heat on the right-wingers, and exposing their tactics. Who could find fault with that? She's invaluable. But it's international leftism that allowed her to see through the right's lies, and the same people whose rhetoric gave her that consciousness should continue to critique the blind spot in that consciousness.

I will never stop pointing out that the Israeli left, for all the good it does, is walking around with its pants down, and everyone can see it.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 05:57

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Main Paineframe posted:

Gender discrimination is actually a big problem in Israel, with the more conservative religious types advocating for outright gender segregation. There are neighborhoods where women have to sit at the back of the bus and the sidewalk on one side of the street is "men-only". I mean sure, it's not quite as bad as the brutal slaughter of innocents, but would it have been right to criticize a black woman in the US for complaining about racism while US troops were sealing off Fallujah and shooting everything that moves (leading to roughly 1300 civilian deaths in two one-month periods)? It may be hard to comprehend for us foreigners, who mostly don't know nor care about any issues in Israel other than the one affecting the international community, but in Israel domestic issues are seen as just as important (if not more) as foreign policy issues, even if those foreign policy issues happen to be indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

I don't know what Stav Shaffir thinks about the I/P conflict, but she probably cares less about it than she does about the fact that she could very well be attacked by a stone-throwing mob for having the wrong hairdo or wearing the wrong clothes in certain neighborhoods, and some rabbis have claimed that it is against Jewish law for women to drive cars or attend exercise classes. Bookstores in Haredi neighborhoods have been forced by endless harassment to allow religious groups to decide which books they do or don't carry, and one 8-year-old girl became world-famous after Haredi men spat on her and called her a prostitute while she was walking to elementary school. In fact, Israeli ultra-Orthodox women have just formed a new polticial party, Bizchutan/B'Zechutan/Ubezchutan (depending on which media outlet you ask) in order to fight for their rights, since the existing ultra-Orthodox parties are men-only parties which ban women from having any political involvement in the parties at all, despite the fact that women are usually the primary breadwinners in Haredi families, since Haredi society considers it wrong for men to work.

It's less that it is wrong for men to work, it's more that it is wrong if it is possible for them to be scholars, instead. There's a sort of unpleasant dependency situation created through what originally was a draft exemption for around 600 scholars, which bloated up into the insane numbers you see today. But I've encountered working Haredi men.

And thanks for pointing out that Haredi Women's party (seems to be Bezchutan "בזכותן" = "due to them"). The coverage of this is minimal. Do keep in mind, though, that a lot of parties will usually run in each election who have no chance of getting in, and this seems to be one of them. :smith:

quote:

It's easy for us to say that the oppression and slaughter of Palestinians should be the primary concern of all Israelis and that no other group's rights should be considered until the injustices against Palestine are resolved, but gender relations in religiously-conservative areas of Israel are seriously hosed, and who the gently caress are we to tell Israeli women that they can't care about their own oppression until the oppression of another group is halted?

While that is true, I think Shaffir's actions make it quite clear that she wants to stop throwing money at the settlements, that she does not see them as an Israeli interest. She's not an internationalist communist, but it does seem that her parliamentary muckraking is getting some traction. Which is imperative for ending the occupation, as "the Palestinians are disadvantaged" is not an issue that holds a lot of interest for Yossi Israeli Jew, while "the settlements are costing us a lot of money for no good reason other than to benefit the settlers rather than us" is something that will strike a nerve. If you see the trajectory Shaffir has taken, gaining prominence in the 2011 tent protests over housing and cost-of-living, this is the most natural and organic lever for her to push to get any meaningful change, even if she would like in an ideal world to focus on ending the Occupation.

ETA:

SedanChair posted:

She's fulfilling an important role and putting heat on the right-wingers, and exposing their tactics. Who could find fault with that? She's invaluable. But it's international leftism that allowed her to see through the right's lies, and the same people whose rhetoric gave her that consciousness should continue to critique the blind spot in that consciousness.

With all due respect, you're giving "international leftism" way more credit than it's due. Israel has a long, homegrown tradition of leftist criticism of settlements, of senseless wars, etc. It's been marginal at times, widespread in others, but you didn't build that.

quote:

I will never stop pointing out that the Israeli left, for all the good it does, is walking around with its pants down, and everyone can see it.

That's a really unfair judgment. Shaffir is in the Labor Party, at most center-left at the best of times. Anyone Hadash and leftwards has always given serious focused on the I/P issue, as has Meretz, even though it is usually late to the war-opposing front, as they seek to maintain respectability in the eyes of the Israeli mainstream. I think that considering these constraints they've done admirably, especially with their recent leadership.

Generally, I don't think there's really anything innovative or useful about you repeatedly bringing this up. You think she doesn't know she is avoiding this issue? She can't be where she is if she doesn't focus on this particular point, otherwise she loses a certain audience. People in Meretz might be willing to lose some of that audience in favor of other constituencies, Hadash may well not care, but under these circumstances, you repeatedly bringing up the fact that she is focusing on her constituents is just not as clever a gotcha as you think it is.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jan 24, 2015

# ? Jan 24, 2015 06:07

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Disinterested posted:

It's still a terrible piece of long term planning for Bibi to cosy to one party. Right now Israel is a bipartisan political football in American politics, which is good for Israel. Being a partisan political football in American politics is potentially catastrophic for Israel.

I don't think so. Israel being openly partisan and pushing Republican candidates has been a pretty longterm thing going on, and there's no signs, or reasons for it to slow down. Israel is synonymous with Likud these days, and you absolutely have to support Israel. So with their current lobbying power, they can make Democrats sound like Newt Gingrich when it comes to Israel, and they can afford to go after people who don't toe the Likud line really hard. It may not be in their best interest in the longterm, but right now, it seems to be paying off. There's no consequences, and the Likud party platform is the Israeli state platform as far as the US is concerned. The only way there would need to be a change on that front is if they went after a President to support a policy they liked, the President refused to play along, and then in the aftermath of the political war that was caused, the President came out on top. I can't describe how unlikely that scenario is, given any President with the least bit of an instinct for self-preservation wouldn't even consider it, and he'd likely lose the narrative even if he did want to give it a shot. The last one to try it was Bush Sr, and his political career ended abruptly.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 06:45

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

With all due respect, you're giving "international leftism" way more credit than it's due. Israel has a long, homegrown tradition of leftist criticism of settlements, of senseless wars, etc. It's been marginal at times, widespread in others, but you didn't build that.

Homegrown, eh? By European leftist immigrants, steeped in European leftist ideas?

quote:

Generally, I don't think there's really anything innovative or useful about you repeatedly bringing this up. You think she doesn't know she is avoiding this issue? She can't be where she is if she doesn't focus on this particular point, otherwise she loses a certain audience. People in Meretz might be willing to lose some of that audience in favor of other constituencies, Hadash may well not care, but under these circumstances, you repeatedly bringing up the fact that she is focusing on her constituents is just not as clever a gotcha as you think it is.

It's quite funny to think that anyone discussing Israel can imagine the luxury of being innovative. We have to bring up the same poo poo over and over, in order to counteract the bizarre narratives of Israeli citizens. So when you post a video of a young Israeli politician adopting the rhetoric of Occupy, I have to point out that wow, Occupy didn't have an elephant in the room quite like that one.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 07:04

A Terrible Person: Jan 8, 2012; The Dance of Friendship; Fun Shoe

Main Paineframe posted:

Gender discrimination is actually a big problem in Israel, with the more conservative religious types advocating for outright gender segregation. There are neighborhoods where women have to sit at the back of the bus and the sidewalk on one side of the street is "men-only". I mean sure, it's not quite as bad as the brutal slaughter of innocents, but would it have been right to criticize a black woman in the US for complaining about racism while US troops were sealing off Fallujah and shooting everything that moves (leading to roughly 1300 civilian deaths in two one-month periods)? It may be hard to comprehend for us foreigners, who mostly don't know nor care about any issues in Israel other than the one affecting the international community, but in Israel domestic issues are seen as just as important (if not more) as foreign policy issues, even if those foreign policy issues happen to be indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

I don't know what Stav Shaffir thinks about the I/P conflict, but she probably cares less about it than she does about the fact that she could very well be attacked by a stone-throwing mob for having the wrong hairdo or wearing the wrong clothes in certain neighborhoods, and some rabbis have claimed that it is against Jewish law for women to drive cars or attend exercise classes. Bookstores in Haredi neighborhoods have been forced by endless harassment to allow religious groups to decide which books they do or don't carry, and one 8-year-old girl became world-famous after Haredi men spat on her and called her a prostitute while she was walking to elementary school. In fact, Israeli ultra-Orthodox women have just formed a new polticial party, Bizchutan/B'Zechutan/Ubezchutan (depending on which media outlet you ask) in order to fight for their rights, since the existing ultra-Orthodox parties are men-only parties which ban women from having any political involvement in the parties at all, despite the fact that women are usually the primary breadwinners in Haredi families, since Haredi society considers it wrong for men to work.

It's easy for us to say that the oppression and slaughter of Palestinians should be the primary concern of all Israelis and that no other group's rights should be considered until the injustices against Palestine are resolved, but gender relations in religiously-conservative areas of Israel are seriously hosed, and who the gently caress are we to tell Israeli women that they can't care about their own oppression until the oppression of another group is halted?

Please, tell us more about the Only Moral Democracy in the Middle East.

I thirst for more hatred of the world in general and this thread helps greatly.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 07:54

TOILETLORD: Nov 13, 2012; by XyloJW

i read OP and as far as i can tell it's not in english

# ? Jan 24, 2015 07:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 4, 2024 20:37

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Never ceases to amuse me when americans barge in here like they were jesus cleansing the temple trying to dictate to us what is acceptable to discuss and what topics are not hypocritical when brought up by an Israeli politician, these numbskulls then of course go to other threads to talk about My Little Pony and anime or to doxx people like giant creeps. Oh no but you see Americans are less culpable than Israelis cause of the bipartisan system and blah blah blah.

If you think Israel is nazi germany reincarnated you should ignore every post in this thread that deals with Israeli politics and contains the assumption that benevolent changes can come forth from within Israel itself, it's not that difficult, yes we know that you need to remind us every once in a while that you're supreme leftists and love Palestinians the most, nobody gives a poo poo, go talk about how Israelis are horsefaced murderers or something in any of the other threads that consider such comments to be normal.

# ? Jan 24, 2015 09:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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