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palistine was created by the muslims to cause the death of palistinians for political gain, palistine suffers because they exist for jihadist touse them as a scaoe goat to get isreal to kill palestinians
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Jan 24, 2015 09:04
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To be fair, americans are just as poo poo as israelis are.
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Jan 24, 2015 09:48
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A Terrible Person posted:To be fair, all humans are just as poo poo as israelis are. Corrected.
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Jan 24, 2015 09:55
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I'm not sure where I got this idea, but growing up I was convinced Israel was supposed to be like the USA but in the middle east. The more I found out about how things actually were there the sadder and angrier I became. Where could that have come from?
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Jan 24, 2015 10:02
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RandomPauI posted:I'm not sure where I got this idea, but growing up I was convinced Israel was supposed to be like the USA but in the middle east. The more I found out about how things actually were there the sadder and angrier I became. Where could that have come from? Are you of the tribe? It seems to me like many young american Jews are raised in relatively progressive households and are also taught that Israel is this bastion of progressiveness that espouses the same values as progressive american jews, so you kind of grow up thinking that The Tribe really is the best and that our One Country is truly a light upon the nations and secretly consider that be proof that maybe we really are the chosen people, you know, not in a supremacist way but kinda totally in a supremacist way. Then you grow up and learn that this is largely bullshit and that Israel is a belligerent ethnocracy and it inevitably reflects upon the way you perceive yourself. Not that I've ever been a Young Progressive American Jew, just my own impressions on the subject from the other side of the planet.
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Jan 24, 2015 10:19
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I'm not Jewish. My best guess is I spent a big chunk of my childhood in Virginia Beach during the height of the Christian Coalition but that doesn't feel like a good explanation.
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Jan 24, 2015 10:38
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So this is a dumb question but what does the President of Israel do? Aren't most Important function of State taken care of by the Prime Minister. I get that tfor he head of government and the head of state are separate in a parliamentary democracy, but like what does he do?
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Jan 24, 2015 10:59
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KomradeX posted:So this is a dumb question but what does the President of Israel do? Aren't most Important function of State taken care of by the Prime Minister. I get that tfor he head of government and the head of state are separate in a parliamentary democracy, but like what does he do? Cat Mattress posted:It's a Ukrainian cartoon about a fat general who fights futilely against a cockroach invasion. The critters are so persistent that he has nightmares about them. While going to buy a new can of insecticide, the merchant suggest a new gizmo instead, a remote control thing that allows to control insects, and put it on the "cockroach" setting. Fat general goes back home, uses the remote to gather all the roaches, then at the last moment, instead of stomping them all to death, he decides to use them as toy soldiers instead. He goes out in the countryside and plans an assault against the house of another general, but is attacked by various flying insects, and is forced to flee, accidentally destroying his remote control in his retreat. Finding shelter in the house he was planning to attack with the roaches, he finds another general, with another remote, who controls the bugs as if they were an air force. Air force general organizes a parade, and fat general salutes it. The End. You might recognize the voices and animation style from the Soviet Treasure Island cartoon, which is pretty awesome for the animation poking fun at the faithfully reproduced text. RandomPauI posted:I'm not sure where I got this idea, but growing up I was convinced Israel was supposed to be like the USA but in the middle east. Edit: Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that Israel has a lot of fringe and extremist movements with disproportionate political power, which tend to concentrate in regional enclaves where they wield tremendous local influence, and tend to act out so loudly and fiercely against anything they don't like that even private businesses will often bow to pressure. Yeah. The post omits violence against "their own" people who are perceived as straying from the fold / involving secular authorities in such internal affairs as abuse or molestation, throwing rocks at people who dare drive on the Sabbath, smearing their feces on stores that violate their arcane codes of conduct (one of those things that baffle me. Take a step over an arbitrary line, and you're harassed into extinction. Move the same store a hundred meters away, still within the same secular neighborhood, and suddenly pork is fine. Well, the riddle of the fanatic mind is not for me to solve), control of Rabbinical courts... etc, etc etc. Too much to go into - and when you live in that bubble, you mostly notice the things that seem extraordinary rather than the daily occurrences that would seem obscene to an outsider. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 12:21
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A Terrible Person posted:Please, tell us more about the Only Moral Democracy in the Middle East. RandomPauI posted:I'm not sure where I got this idea, but growing up I was convinced Israel was supposed to be like the USA but in the middle east. The more I found out about how things actually were there the sadder and angrier I became. Where could that have come from? The problem is that Israel has a lot of fringe and extremist movements with disproportionate political power, which tend to concentrate in regional enclaves where they wield tremendous local influence, and tend to act out so loudly and fiercely against anything they don't like that even private businesses will often bow to pressure. The settler movement is a well-known one, but since it's covered in this thread often, I'll skip it and head to the worst of the worst: the "ultra-Orthodox" Haredi movement, which is (to oversimplify it a bit) a fundamentalist movement that rejects secularism completely and believes that society should be built around strict adherence to original Jewish law as written in the Torah; it's safe to think of them as the Jewish version of people who want society ruled by Sharia law. They're the main source of all the abuse and discrimination against women, since they believe all the same crap about modesty and sin that you'd expect from someplace like Saudi Arabia. They take extreme offense at seeing people near them violating their extreme interpretations of Jewish law, so they tend to live close together, concentrate in specific areas, form extremely insular communities, and eventually take over entire neighborhoods. They also have zero respect for the secular government, and have demonstrated themselves willing to physically attack police and soldiers who enter Haredi communities, compare the government (and anyone else who criticizes them) to Nazis committing a "spiritual holocaust" against them, and wield enough concentrated power in their area that the police fear to enter Haredi neighborhoods and mayors are often brought over to their side. Harassment of people or businesses who violate Haredi precepts within a Haredi neighborhood is common, and members of the Haredi community who go against Haredi beliefs often find themselves completely ostracized by the community. Many private businesses which serve Haredi areas bow to the pressure and willingly impose Haredi-style restrictions on their service in order to satisfy the complaints they receive, and those that refuse are subjected to harassment, vandalism, and violence. Rabbis refuse to condemn them since they're the most strongly-religious demographic in Israel, and the police and IDF are reluctant to come down on them with any real force, preferring to avoid confrontations rather than engage in a serious crackdown. Haredi communities have their own media and their own schools, and avoid mixing with secular society as much as possible - except when they attempt to impose their values on secular society (or at least protect themselves through their own political parties. What are the Haredi principles? Well, for one thing, they're anti-Zionist, at least in theory. But that's the one and only bright spot; basically everything else is horrible. They believe that the most noble occupation for men is devoting oneself to study of the Torah and Judaism; both conventional employment and secular schooling are shunned by the Haredi, and less than half of Haredi men are employed (most of those non-employed Haredi families are on welfare, though some also rely on the women to provide income while the men study). The Haredi strongly oppose IDF membership; they are specially exempted from the draft (which is a controversial political issue in Israel in recent years) and those Haredi who enlist willingly often find themselves subjected to harassment and exclusion from the Haredi community. They also want to enforce most of the usual Jewish religious stuff, like closing roads on Saturday so no one can offend them by being seen driving on Shabbat. The Haredi belief that sticks out the most to me, though, is the institutionalized discrimination against women to almost ridiculous levels, believing that it is sinful for men to be close to or sometimes even to see women any more than necessary. Haredi beliefs require women to wear "modest" outfits that show minimal skin, prohibit men from having physical contact of any sort (such as a handshake) with women in public or even being near them, prohibit men and women from being in a secluded or private area (such as, say, an elevator) together, prohibit men from hearing the sound of a woman singing, and advise men to look at women as little as possible lest they be distracted by sinful thoughts. Of course, pornography and sex-related items are banned, and sex itself is frowned upon except as absolutely necessary for procreation. All this means that everything is segregated in order to keep women as far from men and out of view of men as much as possible, women are given no role in public life except when they're needed to work to support their deadbeat scholar husband and their family, signs are posted at the entrances to Haredi neighborhoods warning women not to dress in "immodest" clothes in order to "not disturb the sanctity of our neighborhood and our way of life", and so on. If a breach of Haredi policy is sighted, it's often met with violence or at least vandalism. Even pictures of women are frowned upon, and advertisements or posters featuring women are often defaced or torn down. This holds doubly true in Haredi media; women's faces are often blurred out, and there was a recent controversy about a Haredi paper photoshopping Angela Merkel and other female world leaders out of a photograph of the recent Paris solidarity rallies. Unfortunately, there's one more belief that the Haredi hold: a faithful devotion to the command "be fruitful and multiply". They have lots of kids, and believe that having big families is their religious duty...and it also happens to do wonders for their political strength. The Haredim, who already make up about 10% of Israel's population, are the fastest-growing demographic in Israel by far, growing much faster than even the Arab population. Twenty years from now, all those kids are going to be a lot of votes if things remain as they are now. The thing is, the special status of the Haredim already causes a lot of tension in Israeli society. A lot of people don't like the fact that the Haredim are exempted from IDF service, are mostly on welfare but have tons of kids anyway, and constantly try to impose totally backward rules on everyone else. The Haredi have enough political power to effectively stonewall any changes right now, but as the Haredi population grows relative to the Israeli population as a whole, the situation is only going to get more and more unsustainable. Even though the Haredi's voting power will go up, the growing percentage of the population exempted from military service and dependent on welfare will eventually become unworkable, and who knows what will emerge from the resulting political chaos? It's because of poo poo like this that I pay some attention to Israel's RandomPauI posted:I'm not sure where I got this idea, but growing up I was convinced Israel was supposed to be like the USA but in the middle east. The more I found out about how things actually were there the sadder and angrier I became. Where could that have come from? What did you think of Germany, Spain, and other first-world countries back then? I think there's a general perception among Americans that all first-world Western countries are basically just like us except that they speak a different language and have different tourist attractions. And since a lot of the earlier Israeli immigrants were European, and there's plenty of secular Jews, it's not as wrong as you might think. But the privileged position given to religious authorities in Israel really kind of fucks things up, and the manner in which Israeli society and government tolerates and enables extremist groups to function and thrive basically ensures that all sorts of regressive garbage can run rampant. The contradictions inherent in Israeli society, combined with the political structure that gives relatively small groups the opportunity to exercise great influence over larger parties, mean that the government is simply powerless to stop this kind of crap from happening - both the discriminatory policies in the first place, and the violent mobs who strike out at any who dare defy them. It's not that much different from the settlers, who also wield enough power in the political process to protect their interests, and also are able to commit violence and terrorism with impunity because law enforcement and the military are reluctant to make any real effort to suppress them for fear of political blowback or outright riots.
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Jan 24, 2015 12:24
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SedanChair posted:Homegrown, eh? By European leftist immigrants, steeped in European leftist ideas? Oh, you're taking credit for that now? I meant by Israelis, some actually born there. You do realize Israeli Jews were born in Palestine before 1948, right? quote:It's quite funny to think that anyone discussing Israel can imagine the luxury of being innovative. We have to bring up the same poo poo over and over, in order to counteract the bizarre narratives of Israeli citizens. So when you post a video of a young Israeli politician adopting the rhetoric of Occupy, I have to point out that wow, Occupy didn't have an elephant in the room quite like that one. Oh, so now being innovative is a luxury? I finally get what this is about. You can't get over how Israelis did Occupy, as in taking over public property over socio-economic issues for middle class underachievement before you did. You're jealous.
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Jan 24, 2015 14:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, you're taking credit for that now? I meant by Israelis, some actually born there. You do realize Israeli Jews were born in Palestine before 1948, right? Yes, are you saying they weren't European with European traditions, or that the "tradition of leftist criticism" was perhaps found engraved on pottery shards in the ruins of an ancient fortress? Perhaps George Washington was not European, after all he was born in Virginia. quote:Oh, so now being innovative is a luxury? I finally get what this is about. You can't get over how Israelis did Occupy, as in taking over public property over socio-economic issues for middle class underachievement before you did. You're jealous. Yeah you got me I'm jealous of the achievements of the Israeli left. If anything your Occupy movement was more embarrassing than the American one. It would have been as if Occupy Wall Street had been in 1961 and studiously avoided mentioning that whole Jim Crow thing. Too divisive, you know. We have to focus on what we can achieve. emanresu tnuocca posted:Never ceases to amuse me when americans barge in here like they were jesus cleansing the temple trying to dictate to us what is acceptable to discuss and what topics are not hypocritical when brought up by an Israeli politician, these numbskulls then of course go to other threads to talk about My Little Pony and anime or to doxx people like giant creeps. Oh no but you see Americans are less culpable than Israelis cause of the bipartisan system and blah blah blah. I'm not trying to dictate anything to you, and I always appreciate your posts. As for the rest, I don't know what to tell you. If you think I am harder on Israel than I am on the US, or that I am harder on Israeli politicians, you're wrong. I want you to be angry and frustrated that I don't accept Stav Shaffir as an inspiring figure; it's better than you having the misapprehension that anyone who would use her kind of rhetoric outside of Israel would praise her. Specifically, I thought it was genuinely hilarious that a women's rights issue in Israel is being let into men-only bomb shelters when there is no danger.
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Jan 24, 2015 15:21
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't know what Stav Shaffir thinks about the I/P conflict, but she probably cares less about it than she does about the fact that she could very well be attacked by a stone-throwing mob for having the wrong hairdo or wearing the wrong clothes in certain neighborhoods, and some rabbis have claimed that it is against Jewish law for women to drive cars or attend exercise classes. Bookstores in Haredi neighborhoods have been forced by endless harassment to allow religious groups to decide which books they do or don't carry, and one 8-year-old girl became world-famous after Haredi men spat on her and called her a prostitute while she was walking to elementary school. In fact, Israeli ultra-Orthodox women have just formed a new polticial party, Bizchutan/B'Zechutan/Ubezchutan (depending on which media outlet you ask) in order to fight for their rights, since the existing ultra-Orthodox parties are men-only parties which ban women from having any political involvement in the parties at all, despite the fact that women are usually the primary breadwinners in Haredi families, since Haredi society considers it wrong for men to work. Israel, national homeland of the MRA. Main Paineframe posted:Unfortunately, there's one more belief that the Haredi hold: a faithful devotion to the command "be fruitful and multiply". They have lots of kids, and believe that having big families is their religious duty...and it also happens to do wonders for their political strength. The Haredim, who already make up about 10% of Israel's population, are the fastest-growing demographic in Israel by far, growing much faster than even the Arab population. Twenty years from now, all those kids are going to be a lot of votes if things remain as they are now. Turns out that stubbornly refusing to see women as human beings with equal rights and their own free will is really helpful in using them as nothing but domestic slaves-cum-baby factories. And the kind of horror stories you hear from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Iran about how women are treated will also come from Israel once the Haredim become the largest demographics in Israel.
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Jan 24, 2015 15:21
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My reply was a little angry I guess. Stav Shaffir is unironically Israel's biggest hope for ending the occupation*, she is a lot more to the left than she is letting on in her capacity as a very popular MK, she is focusing her rhetoric against the settlements by unveiling the massive corruption that is involved in financing the settlements because even centrist Israelis who might be supportive of the settlements in principle do not appreciate the wanton thievery of state funds to benefit one particular sector. What she's going for is very much in accordance to many of the goals of the BDS movement, she's trying to unravel the secretive ties between 'extremist settlers' and mainstream Israeli politicians and demonstrate that on many levels the extremists and the mainstream are one and the same. If she succeeds in stopping the illegal transfer of funds it will slow down the rapid expansions of the settlements, which is something we all want, if she only succeeds in unveiling the conspiracy and proving that it exists in unequivocal terms it will be a powerful tool in the hands of the BDS movement and will hopefully awaken many Israelis to some of the realities of the status quo. Baby steps perhaps but she is the first politician to have tackled this shady conspiracy head on. At her current trajectory I fully expect she will be a serious contender for PM within the next 8 years. *Without genuine outside intervention or a massive regional war.
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Jan 24, 2015 15:34
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Can we stop using BDS as a synonym for being anti-occupation? BDS supports a full boycott of Israel and opposes a two state solution.
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Jan 24, 2015 17:26
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SedanChair posted:Yes, are you saying they weren't European with European traditions, or that the "tradition of leftist criticism" was perhaps found engraved on pottery shards in the ruins of an ancient fortress? Perhaps George Washington was not European, after all he was born in Virginia. I'm saying that you, just for being a leftist, can't take credit for it. Israeli leftists of various stripes don't owe you for using critiques you're taking ownership over here. But my rebuttal was poorly phrased. quote:Yeah you got me I'm jealous of the achievements of the Israeli left. If anything your Occupy movement was more embarrassing than the American one. It would have been as if Occupy Wall Street had been in 1961 and studiously avoided mentioning that whole Jim Crow thing. Too divisive, you know. We have to focus on what we can achieve. You should be jealous of the Israeli left, because they had their Occupy variant earlier, and leading figures in that movement actually came into the legislature and are having measurable influence on how things will be done from now on. The most memorable leading light in Occupy that still has some national recognition is Justine Tunney  . As for ignoring the elephant in the room, yes, that is a vile but unavoidable issue when dealing with Israeli politics. But I really don't see what you think you're getting out of bringing this up in this context. It's like when people constantly bring up the shortcomings of Lincoln's direct commitment to abolition. Yeah, he didn't start out running on abolition because it would have been political suicide, but he found a way of making a partial version of it, to the extent that he could do so as the Commander in Chief, economic/strategic (which was the strength of the Emancipation Proclamation, even though it didn't free the majority of the slaves by itself), which made pushing for it directly almost unavoidable. You keep on bringing up the fact that Lincoln wasn't Frederick Douglas or John Brown, but neither of these would have succeeded in abolition by themselves, while Lincoln was invaluable for that to happen. I'd take a Lincoln right about now, especially since I think the situation between Israeli Jews and Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is much worse than Jim Crow, much closer to slavery in fact, since even the hypocritical foundation of everyone being citizens of the same country isn't there. If you don't have that there are demands and strategies that simply will not work. I was at a presentation on housing struggles in East Harlem, and while their grassroots organizing and actions were admirable, and their successes praiseworthy, I couldn't help but get a sense that they would simply not succeed if it weren't for strict renter protection laws extant in NYC and NYS. There is no way they could have kept their houses without a drawn-out armed struggle if it weren't for this legal framework, and a basic respect for it even from the rightly deplored NYPD. You simply do not have that in the West Bank, or Gaza. (And slowly but surely, less and less so inside of Israel) So I'm not telling you to not bring up atrocities directed towards Palestinians; you'll note I bring those up all the time. I don't think there's a dearth of coverage of it in this thread, although not so much since things went back to business as usual after Protective Edge, and with elections coming up, I think people will be interested in hearing more about that than about the baseline shittiness that is the life of a Palestinian. What I am telling you is that these repeated non sequitur reminders of yours are just not adding to the conversation, at least as I perceive it, and they're not the gotcha zingers you seem to think they are. Kim Jong Il posted:Can we stop using BDS as a synonym for being anti-occupation? BDS supports a full boycott of Israel and opposes a two state solution. At least formally speaking, BDS does support a two-state solution. They lost some supporters over rephrasing the "Arab lands" demand so it's specific to the 1967 borders. Of course, since nobody is willing to take responsibility for BDS, people involved are in the enviable position of being able to simultaneously take credit for all success and deflect all criticism of specific actions and failures as being that of particular groups, because they're a decentralized whatever. That's why you have them taking credit for Settlement-targeted boycotts after years of deriding anyone wanting to focus on Settlement products as crypto-Zionist scum.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:40
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Darth Walrus posted:I hear a lot about Lebanon being a disaster for the IDF, but I'm not au fait with the details. What went wrong, and how bad did it get? Give this a gander. I've linked it a few times over the course of the thread, but it's a hell of a read. I highly recommend it if you want to grip your head with both hands and boggle your eyes going what were they thinking. Xander77 is exactly right with regard to the "Worm Doctrine", which is part of the EBO strategy that the IDF commanders disappeared up their own assholes with in 2006: quote:This space that you look at, this room that you look at, is nothing but your interpretation of it. Now, you can stretch the boundaries of your interpretation, but not in an unlimited fashion, after all, it must be bound by physics, as it contains buildings and alleys. The question is, how do you interpret the alley? Do you interpret the alley as a place, like every architect and every town planner does, to walk through, or do you interpret the alley as a place forbidden to walk through? This depends only on interpretation. We interpreted the alley as a place forbidden to walk through, and the window as a place forbidden to look through, because a weapon awaits us in the alley, and a booby trap awaits us behind the doors. This is because the enemy interprets space in a traditional, classical manner, and I do not want to obey this interpretation and fall into his trap. Not only do I not want to fall into his traps, I want to surprise him! This is the essence of war. I need to win. I need to emerge from an unexpected place. . . . This is why we opted for the methodology of moving through walls. . . . Like a worm that eats its way forward, emerging at points and then disappearing.40 quote:For the IDF, the major problem with SOD was the new terminology and methodology. Not every officer in the IDF had the time or the inclination to study postmodern French philosophy. It was questionable whether the majority of IDF officers would grasp a design that Naveh proclaimed was “not intended for ordinary mortals.”41 Many IDF officers thought the entire program elitist, while others could not understand why the old system of simple orders and terminology was being replaced by a design that few could understand
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Jan 24, 2015 19:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:As for ignoring the elephant in the room, yes, that is a vile but unavoidable issue when dealing with Israeli politics. But I really don't see what you think you're getting out of bringing this up in this context. It's like when people constantly bring up the shortcomings of Lincoln's direct commitment to abolition. Yeah, he didn't start out running on abolition because it would have been political suicide, but he found a way of making a partial version of it, to the extent that he could do so as the Commander in Chief, economic/strategic (which was the strength of the Emancipation Proclamation, even though it didn't free the majority of the slaves by itself), which made pushing for it directly almost unavoidable. You keep on bringing up the fact that Lincoln wasn't Frederick Douglas or John Brown, but neither of these would have succeeded in abolition by themselves, while Lincoln was invaluable for that to happen. You don't see what the difference is in talking about the failings or inconsistencies of a historical figure versus those of a rising young politician?
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Jan 24, 2015 20:07
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SedanChair posted:You don't see what the difference is in talking about the failings or inconsistencies of a historical figure versus those of a rising young politician? It's not inconsistent, it's in line with promoting her goals with the constituency she is dealing with, and your original complaint was tarnishing the "Israeli left" as a whole. Your original post wasn't even just "well, despite her advantages, she still clearly isn't what we would consider left in this forum" it was "LOL, look at a so-called Israeli leftist caring about Israeli women, `left` amirite  ".Neither I nor emanresu have brought her up as this magical leftist, but we've been following her actions on muckraking the settlement bullshit and explaining how that will have beneficial long-term effects. So again, your criticism is just non sequitur. As for the distinction between historical figure and a rising young politician, no, I don't think that's a relevant distinction because my issue is with the short-sighted maximalism of this criticism, not with how it will affect her behavior (protip: diatribes about the failings of the Israeli left by some American leftwinger are not going to move someone who's in the Labor party).
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Jan 24, 2015 20:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's not inconsistent, it's in line with promoting her goals with the constituency she is dealing with, and your original complaint was tarnishing the "Israeli left" as a whole. Your original post wasn't even just "well, despite her advantages, she still clearly isn't what we would consider left in this forum" it was "LOL, look at a so-called Israeli leftist caring about Israeli women, `left` amirite No I was pointing out what a sick joke it is to agitate for women to get into a men-only shelter so they can escape imaginary danger, while remaining silent about women getting killed for real a few miles away. Of course it wouldn't make sense for her as a Labor politician to make that her focus, but who cares? I say the same poo poo about Elizabeth Warren, knowing that if she took a different stance she would be unelectable and irrelevant. So what? That's the beauty of not being a politician, you don't have to ignore what they ignore. quote:Neither I nor emanresu have brought her up as this magical leftist, but we've been following her actions on muckraking the settlement bullshit and explaining how that will have beneficial long-term effects. So again, your criticism is just non sequitur. It's not at all. Remember, a huge part of this thread is providing context for people who are new to the history of the conflict. If they saw a politician saying what Stav Shaffir was saying, they might assume that she had a more reasonable stance on genocide. So, I was pointing out that she doesn't. quote:As for the distinction between historical figure and a rising young politician, no, I don't think that's a relevant distinction because my issue is with the short-sighted maximalism of this criticism, not with how it will affect her behavior (protip: diatribes about the failings of the Israeli left by some American leftwinger are not going to move someone who's in the Labor party). No, but they will continue to inflame the disgust of young Israelis. I won't spend too much time digging up your positions nearer to the beginning of the thread, but they have changed. I'm not personally taking credit for it, but a hostile climate towards the weird, reality-denying nature of Israeli politics on the internet does have an effect.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:33
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SedanChair posted:Homegrown, eh? By European leftist immigrants, steeped in European leftist ideas? Yeah, it's a good thing Europe was around to invent feminism for them, since we all know non-Europeans are savages incapable of coming up with leftist positions by themselves. And no, Occupy absolutely had skeletons like that in its closet. Granted, by that time the US had pretty much stopped carrying out Protective Edge-style massacres in favor of a more constant low-level oppression, but it's downright ignorant to suggest that the US didn't have this whole thing about invading and oppressing a foreign power while engaging in indiscriminate punitive massacres against the civilian population in the name of suppressing terrorists. SedanChair posted:No I was pointing out what a sick joke it is to agitate for women to get into a men-only shelter so they can escape imaginary danger, while remaining silent about women getting killed for real a few miles away. Of course it wouldn't make sense for her as a Labor politician to make that her focus, but who cares? I say the same poo poo about Elizabeth Warren, knowing that if she took a different stance she would be unelectable and irrelevant. Yeah, look at how sick and selfish it is for women to care about issues that affect them and their demographic personally! Why, they don't even care about the issues faced by a completely different demographic who is being oppressed in completely different ways by completely different people! Look at those dumb stupid feminists, how dare they care about intense and often violent discrimination against themselves when other groups are also being oppressed? How dare they not focus primarily on the one issue that I, an American who has never been to Israel and only has the vaguest idea of Israeli issues, care about? Their own rights can wait till after rights are given to the one oppressed group that the international community cares about, and the other groups facing oppression and discrimination in Israel can suck it. The political situation in Israel? Who cares about that? As an American and an internet poster, it's my solemn right to not know or care what the political situation is like in Israel, just as it's my duty to care only about the issues I care about and dismiss the issues I don't care about as not only irrelevant but actively counterproductive to leftism, which of course was a European invention that Arabs and Semites never could have come up with on their own.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:50
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Xander77 posted:More or less the same things as the Queen of England. He's the one who calls on the "winner" of the election to assemble a ruling coalition (or calls on someone else if the winner fails to do so). Hands out pardons. Officiates ceremonies. International relations. Figurehead stuff Okay that makes sense. I had a feeling it was something like that. Just figured maybe they did more than just be a figurehead like the Queen.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:53
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Does Palestine have women, too, or were they all killed in the last carpet bombings?
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Jan 24, 2015 20:53
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SedanChair posted:No I was pointing out what a sick joke it is to agitate for women to get into a men-only shelter so they can escape imaginary danger, while remaining silent about women getting killed for real a few miles away. Of course it wouldn't make sense for her as a Labor politician to make that her focus, but who cares? I say the same poo poo about Elizabeth Warren, knowing that if she took a different stance she would be unelectable and irrelevant. You don't know what her stance is on genocide. You just know that she doesn't go out and yell about it at the moment. On the other hand, her actions in parliament, which the video refers to and which I have documented in this and the previous thread, show that in practice she seems to be one of the few politicians in Israel today that might actually be doing something to limit and hopefully eventually stop genocide. But more generally, if your original post was supposed to provide context, it was extremely misleading. Having someone unfamiliar with Israeli politics judge the Israeli left by the inaction of a prominent member of the Labor party? If you were talking about Zionist left even, it would still be more honest to discuss Meretz (who have their own shortcomings), and if you wanted to talk about non-Zionist leftists, there's Hadash, Balad, and a lot of non-electoral organizations and groups that are much more genuinely left, albeit they are a small minority. quote:No, but they will continue to inflame the disgust of young Israelis. If you think your views as expressed are going to inflame the disgust of young Israelis at anyone other than yourself as a goy Israel-hating antisemite, by Jehovah you have not met many of them. quote:I won't spend too much time digging up your positions nearer to the beginning of the thread, but they have changed. I'm not personally taking credit for it, but a hostile climate towards the weird, reality-denying nature of Israeli politics on the internet does have an effect. Nope, my positions have actually stayed pretty much the same since the start of the previous thread. The only big change is that I accepted that for the most part, the rockets from Gaza were a joke, albeit that has to do not just with their relative insignificance compared to Israeli munitions, but also with the prevalence of these very shelters which you mock. It's still a war crime, just a really negligible one comparatively, moreso than I realized at the time. I opposed the Gaza operation from the start, and I held Netanyahu's government responsible for everything that transpired, because they were handed a good option with the unity government and they rejected it and started attacking in Gaza, instead. I would have kept opposing it and kept focusing the blame on the Israeli government even if the rockets were less pathetic. On the contrary, as I see it, the main change is that after continued and relentless insistence on my views you and a few others seem to have come to realize that not answering to a few default anti-Zionist Shibboleths doesn't make one a Zionist, and that there are interesting perspectives by Israelis other than "I am going to just regurgitate what Palestinians/Internationals say and be your pet Israeli so you are less likely to be called an antisemite". It may comfort you to think that you have changed me, but I think it is you who have changed.  I can tell you that my views have changed quite a bit since the last Israeli election thread, though. I used to be much more of the fig-leafy type. But that had less to do with forums and more to do with reading a bit more history.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
Wow, a secret stance. I wonder if she has a secret plan to end the war. Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's a good thing Europe was around to invent feminism for them, since we all know non-Europeans are savages incapable of coming up with leftist positions by themselves. And no, Occupy absolutely had skeletons like that in its closet. Granted, by that time the US had pretty much stopped carrying out Protective Edge-style massacres in favor of a more constant low-level oppression, but it's downright ignorant to suggest that the US didn't have this whole thing about invading and oppressing a foreign power while engaging in indiscriminate punitive massacres against the civilian population in the name of suppressing terrorists. What twisted thinking! You are getting confused. The US and Israel are equally repugnant from the perspective of crimes against humanity, that's certainly true. The difference between the responses is that the American Occupy included many voices against war, occupation and torture, and the Israeli Occupy excluded those voices with a panicked thoroughness. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 21:10
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SedanChair posted:Wow, a secret stance. I wonder if she has a secret plan to end the war. The party platform under which the whole list, including her, ran for the 19th Knesset is not a secret. Here is an excerpt from a webpage giving an overview of all 19th Knesset candidate parties, as the original is unavailable (they are revamping it for the 20th Knesset): שלום ובטחון על יסוד הכרה בזכותו של העם הפלסטיני להגדרה עצמית, מפלגת "העבודה" תפעל לכינונו של הסכם שלום יציב בין ישראל והרשות הפלסטינית. המפלגה תחתור לסיום הסכסוך הישראלי-פלסטיני ולחתימה על הסכם שיתבסס, בין היתר, על מתווה קלינטון, לפיו - שתי מדינות לאום דמוקרטיות לשני העמים, אשר תחיינה בשלום זו לצד זו. בין שתי המדינות ייכונו יחסי שלום ושיתוף פעולה. Peace and Security On the basis of recognizing the right of the Palestinian people to self determination, the Labor party will act to create a stable peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The party will strive to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and to sign an agreement which will be based, among other things, on the Clinton Framework, according to which there will be two democratic nation-states for the two peoples, which will live in peace one by the other. The two states will have a peaceful and cooperative relationship. (my rough translation) Doesn't sound very Nixonesque to me. ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHWbqwh4PB0 You lost Fox News, Netanyahu. YOU LOST FOX NEWS! Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 21:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHWbqwh4PB0 
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Jan 24, 2015 21:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHWbqwh4PB0 Holy shee-it, welcome to the enemies list guys. The domestic audience might see Bibi as nuts but the teabaggers loving love him. e: I mean Shep and Chris Wallace are the two most off-the-reservation guys at FNC, but still.
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Jan 24, 2015 21:56
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SedanChair posted:Holy shee-it, welcome to the enemies list guys. The domestic audience might see Bibi as nuts but the teabaggers loving love him. If all this does is push Teabaggers into irrelevancy and make Republicans sane  again, it will be worthwhile.   But seriously, if those blowhards are putting Fox News on their do not watch list, what else do they have?
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Jan 24, 2015 22:04
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My favorite part was where he goes "Well Bibi is not acting like he wants a two state solution so maybe that shows he actually doesn't" but as soon as he says it he understands that might be a little bit too close to being an obvious fact which might not exactly match his world views so he adds "it's all very complex and confusing".
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Jan 24, 2015 22:20
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emanresu tnuocca posted:My favorite part was where he goes "Well Bibi is not acting like he wants a two state solution so maybe that shows he actually doesn't" but as soon as he says it he understands that might be a little bit too close to being an obvious fact which might not exactly match his world views so he adds "it's all very complex and confusing". He cited Bush on it, too, making it bipartisan. Do you think somebody is going to feature this in the Israeli elections campaign? Man, I'm totally looking forward to the TV ads. 
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Jan 24, 2015 22:33
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Absurd Alhazred posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHWbqwh4PB0 Shep Smith is my main man.
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Jan 24, 2015 22:43
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Miltank posted:Shep Smith is my main man. He's really, really, really good with the deadpan.
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Jan 24, 2015 22:43
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SedanChair posted:Homegrown, eh? By European leftist immigrants, steeped in European leftist ideas? Interesting to see that your concern for women who aren't white, Western, and bourgeoisie is the same regardless if they're living in North America or in the Middle East, viz. that they're a bunch of funny little gabbling savages and the idea they don't want acid thrown in their faces or their clitorises hacked off is just an imperialist invention. Eight-year old girl spit on by Haredi? She would have just grown up to serve in the IDF, right?
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Jan 25, 2015 00:08
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Yep, somebody in Israel did notice the Fox News skewering (Hebrew, refers to the Fox News story, but apparently Peggy Noonan in WSJ was pissed off, and a bunch of Israeli politicians, left and right, are calling on him to cancel, including Michael Oren) In other ultra-Orthodox Jews hating on not-quite-that-Orthodox Jews news: --- A number of prominent rabbis have voiced concerns and expressed their objection to the immigration of French Jews following the recent terror attacks in France. The ultra-Orthodox press affiliated with the Ashkenazi leadership is arguing that the aliyah from France is halachically problematic since about 50% of French Jews live in mixed marriages and will be required to undergo a conversion process. According to sources, some of the new immigrants will not be able to convert due to the haredi demand to reject proselytes and not to welcome them into the Jewish religion. The haredi press raised further concerns that many of the immigrants would refuse to undergo a conversion process or that the procedure would be conducted by institutions and courts which do not meet the strict standard, and that as a result their children will create mixed marriages later on. The Yated Neeman newspaper interviewed converting rabbis and asked them whether the haredi public was prepared to absorb the immigrants from France. The rabbis said there was a concern that Jews who observed mitzvot in France would come to Israel, become involved with the secular Israelis and stop observing Shabbat and mitzvot. Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky was quoted as ruling that a person may only make aliyah "if he finds himself in a clear religious place." Rabbi Aharon Shteinman said the call for immigration was "hasty," adding that there is no reason to make aliyah at all "as the Messiah has yet to arrive." Rabbi Shteinman was also quoted by the Kikar Hashabat website as saying that the security situation is difficult in Israel as well and that Jews are also being murdered here. Hapeles newspaper, which is affiliated with Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach, argued that the call to make aliyah was driven by a feeling of power drunkenness of Zionism, which the haredi perspective opposes. --- The largest bloc of Jewish anti-Zionists, folks! Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 00:13
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The Insect Court posted:Eight-year old girl spit on by Haredi? She would have just grown up to serve in the IDF, right? Pretty sure she's still going to serve in the IDF.
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Jan 25, 2015 00:17
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SedanChair posted:Pretty sure she's still going to serve in the IDF. She might. Lots of women get exempted. And maybe there will be peace by the time she is old enough, and there will be no need for the draft.  Not bloody likely. 
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Jan 25, 2015 00:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:And maybe there will be peace by the time she is old enough, and there will be no need for the draft. That's the lie my mother used when I was old enough to realize how hosed up a draft is.
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Jan 25, 2015 00:58
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:That's the lie my mother used when I was old enough to realize how hosed up a draft is. We all get told the same lie, friend. 
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Jan 25, 2015 00:59
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For your American sensibilities: Right to left: Something new begins. Jewish Home, lead by Naftali Bennett.(source)
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Jan 25, 2015 08:12
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I guess this isn't quite the right thread for this, but in an interesting development in the Jeffrey Epstein prostitution/pedophilia mile-high scandal, other than prince Andrew and Alan Dershowitz it would appear that former prime minister of Israel Ehud "how did he get so rich so quickly" Barak has also made a few trips on the bacchanalian party plane: http://gawker.com/here-is-pedophile-billionaire-jeffrey-epsteins-little-b-1681383992
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Jan 25, 2015 12:09
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