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Who What Now posted:Which? That we'll all have deathbed conversions or we'll all convert after death? At some point everyone will "convert", though I'm not sure that's the best term. Maybe "come to understand". But when that happens is going to be different for everyone.
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Jan 27, 2015 22:59
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Mr. Wiggles posted:At some point everyone will "convert", though I'm not sure that's the best term. Maybe "come to understand". But when that happens is going to be different for everyone. Man, you are as bad as the guys who claim Darwin recanted on his death bed.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:01
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CommieGIR posted:Conjecture is fun, isn't it! Well of course it is, why else would anyone post in D&D? The English dictionary is your ally, not your enemy!
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Jan 27, 2015 23:05
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Black Bones posted:Well of course it is, why else would anyone post in D&D? The English dictionary is your ally, not your enemy! But hardly proof of anything other than the meaning of words.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:05
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CommieGIR posted:Man, you are as bad as the guys who claim Darwin recanted on his death bed. Why would Darwin recant? That's silly.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:08
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Mr. Wiggles: Do you think God will ease aspiring rationalists into Heavenly splendor with some play-acting like they just got thawed out and computer uploaded or something?
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Jan 27, 2015 23:21
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Even if you're just doing the smugatheist troll thing, you have crap logic here. How do you know nothing would ever convince you, for starters? I'm glad to see others calling you out on this. That isn't what I said. All I said is that it was possible. I can imagine somethings which would convince me that God would exist. But then again, maybe I'm so closed minded, that even if I saw those things I actually wouldn't. All I know, is that I don't believe that God exists. I am also under the impression (though I could be wrong, that is why I am asking) that God could convince me of his existence. I'm just asking why he hasn't. And TBH, I don't care that he he hasn't, because he doesn't exist. Mr. Wiggles posted:I guess I'm wondering why he's being so impatient about it. I'm not impatient about it. Because God doesn't exist. How could I be impatient about it? Mr. Wiggles posted:Everyone will come to God eventually, some just sooner than others. That is actually a good point I hadn't considered. If that is the case though, why is it so important to talk about? Just let people go through life doing what ever they want and eventually they will come to God. Unless... they won't believe in God until they are in hell. In that case my question still stands. Why wouldn't God convince me of his existence...before I went to hell?
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Jan 27, 2015 23:24
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Who What Now posted:Which? That we'll all have deathbed conversions or we'll all convert after death? Wiggles, unless I'm misremembering, ascribes to the "hell is a prison locked from the inside" variation, with postdeath recognition of/reconciliation with God being not only probable but inevitable. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 23:27
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Who What Now posted:This is an important distinction to make because the church is always poised to seize credit for things it did not do and in some cases even tried to impede. Churches are nothing but jackals and vultures on social issues and mice wherever will get them the most support and accolades. They obviously aren't unique on this point, however, and there's no shortage of other people and organizations doing the same thing.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:29
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Miltank posted:So is MLK the jackal in this metaphor or is it his congregation? Or maybe the congregations that supported his congregation? Obviously the very religious segregationists and Jim Crow supporters were the jackals.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:30
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Wiggles, unless I'm misremembering, ascribes to the "hell is a prison locked from the inside" variation, with postdeath recognition of/reconciliation with God being not only probable but inevitable. Oh, if that is the case that resolves my whole question. But it also raises the question, why is it so important to talk about Christianity now? Like the very title is that the only thing that matters is Jesus. But if hell is a prison locked from the inside, then just let all us non-believers go about our lives. We will die,end up in hell, see that God is real, and go to heaven.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:32
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Black Bones posted:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/creation?s=t Well, he's not just talking about theology, he's talking about people like you who posit the idea of a creator in your terms in the first place (which, after all, is a form of theology!)
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Jan 27, 2015 23:34
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Miltank posted:So is MLK the jackal in this metaphor or is it his congregation? Or maybe the congregations that supported his congregation? Neither, but rather the churches and political parties who tried to claim ownership of his deeds after death.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:34
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Legacyspy posted:Oh, if that is the case that resolves my whole question. But it also raises the question, why is it so important to talk about Christianity now? Like the very title is that the only thing that matters is Jesus. But if hell is a prison locked from the inside, then just let all us non-believers go about our lives. We will die,end up in hell, see that God is real, and go to heaven. For all I've argued with him over the years, one thing I won't accuse Wiggles of being is a proselytizing rear end in a top hat for, as much as he likes to talk about Christianity, he isn't trying to win convert because while he find his faith personally important, he's secure in the knowledge we'll all come around eventually and so it doesn't much matter if we do it now or later (and won't cost us much, if anything, if it's the latter). In this, he's leagues above Kyrie, who let's be honest, only cares about his faith as it gives him an excuse to smug it up and/or condemn the rest of us, or Brandor, who wants to blather endlessly about his feverish universalist delusions and shaky grasp of English, both of which he's mistaken for revelation. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 23:38
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Legacyspy posted:Oh, if that is the case that resolves my whole question. But it also raises the question, why is it so important to talk about Christianity now? Like the very title is that the only thing that matters is Jesus. But if hell is a prison locked from the inside, then just let all us non-believers go about our lives. We will die,end up in hell, see that God is real, and go to heaven. CommieGIR posted:Obviously the very religious segregationists and Jim Crow supporters were the jackals. Who What Now posted:Neither, but rather the churches and political parties who tried to claim ownership of his deeds after death.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:51
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The "first cause" argument is such bullshit. We already know how the universe started. Pure nothingness is incredibly unstable, and tends to produce universes along with a foaming sea of every other kind of thing. It's the only way weak gravity can even exist. Theoretical cosmology has progressed past the need for causality in the quantum-gravitational regime. Get on my level, God.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:54
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Nessus posted:I would guess the moral lessons of Christ (though I would rate them slightly inferior to those of the Buddha if I'm not allowed to pick the Master Therion, they're still quite good) as well as wanting to spare people the possibility of an interminable period of suffering before their acceptance of divine truth. It might be eventually inevitable but it could take a million years. Except that I am standing with my convictions? Do you just not read very good, or...? Here, it's like this. Individuals in the church are not the church, and good people are still good people with or without religion. Churches try to brush that fact under the rug and say that no they really are the only reason good people are good. Which is the point I was making.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:54
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Legacyspy posted:Oh, if that is the case that resolves my whole question. But it also raises the question, why is it so important to talk about Christianity now? Like the very title is that the only thing that matters is Jesus. But if hell is a prison locked from the inside, then just let all us non-believers go about our lives. We will die,end up in hell, see that God is real, and go to heaven. Like Captain Maclaine alludes to above, I don't see the point in going about telling people they should believe in this thing or that thing. At the same time, I'm happy to talk about what I believe in because for me, it's really great. Like, I get a ton of personal satisfaction and happiness from Christianity, and so it's natural for me to be an enthusiastic booster of it. But part of my faith is in the truly universal nature of the promises of Christ, so the last thing I would want to do is go about telling someone "you have to believe this thing right now or you are a bad person" or some other such nonsense. Everyone is on their own road to paradise - who am I to judge it?
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Jan 27, 2015 23:57
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mdemone posted:Pure nothingness is incredibly unstable, and tends to produce universes along with a foaming sea of every other kind of thing. God is a Boltzmann Brain and we are its dream.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:00
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Who What Now posted:Except that I am standing with my convictions? Do you just not read very good, or...? Here, it's like this. Individuals in the church are not the church, and good people are still good people with or without religion. Churches try to brush that fact under the rug and say that no they really are the only reason good people are good. Which is the point I was making. The individuals actually are the church.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:16
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McDowell posted:God is a Boltzmann Brain and we are its dream. You jest, but that is remarkably close to the general thrust of holographic cosmology, in which we treat space itself as emergent and gravity as an entropic force (just as in elasticity, or gas dynamics) arising from the movement of information toward equipartition on the light-like worldsheet receding from every degree of freedom in the Hubble volume, i.e. the cosmological horizon. I'm pursuing publication for an article that rescues Hegel's Phenomenology in light of the fact that the cosmos is awakening to know itself, as these bits of information project into our spacetime and take the form of sentient beings (maybe not just us) writing down string cosmology.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:20
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If she doesn't wear a habit, she ain't a nun.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:26
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Like Captain Maclaine alludes to above, I don't see the point in going about telling people they should believe in this thing or that thing. At the same time, I'm happy to talk about what I believe in because for me, it's really great. Like, I get a ton of personal satisfaction and happiness from Christianity, and so it's natural for me to be an enthusiastic booster of it. But part of my faith is in the truly universal nature of the promises of Christ, so the last thing I would want to do is go about telling someone "you have to believe this thing right now or you are a bad person" or some other such nonsense. Everyone is on their own road to paradise - who am I to judge it? That is totally fair, and resolves my question.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:35
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Legacyspy posted:That is totally fair, and resolves my question. Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding you earlier.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:45
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mdemone posted:You jest, but that is remarkably close to the general thrust of holographic cosmology, in which we treat space itself as emergent and gravity as an entropic force (just as in elasticity, or gas dynamics) arising from the movement of information toward equipartition on the light-like worldsheet receding from every degree of freedom in the Hubble volume, i.e. the cosmological horizon. Keep me updated. I always had an uneasy relationship with Hegel, so I'm always looking for new ways in.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:00
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Miltank posted:The individuals actually are the church. Nope
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Jan 28, 2015 01:14
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Who What Now posted:Nope What the hell else is a church but a group of people? You're essentially doing your own personal version of 'corporations are people, friend'.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:15
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Disinterested posted:What the hell else is a church but a group of people? You're essentially doing your own personal version of 'corporations are people, friend'. What? I'm saying the exact opposite. Martin Luther King doesn't belong to his church and Christians don't get to claim him as "theirs". Nor do Republicans, Democrats, or anyone else. He was his own person and his accomplishments are his own and it's a lovely thing to try and take that away and say "Christianity is to thank for everything MLK did".
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Jan 28, 2015 01:25
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CommieGIR posted:But hardly proof of anything other than the meaning of words. Agreed. Disinterested posted:Well, he's not just talking about theology, he's talking about people like you who posit the idea of a creator in your terms in the first place (which, after all, is a form of theology!) Yes, of course? Nessus posted:Do you think God will ease aspiring rationalists into Heavenly splendor with some play-acting like they just got thawed out and computer uploaded or something? If that's their idea of paradise, sure, why not?
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Jan 28, 2015 01:30
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God personally wrote the BSG reboot to promote alt-heaven with a coat of Cylon technology.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:34
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Who What Now posted:What? I'm saying the exact opposite. If all a church is is a group of people then you're making a basic mistake by setting a church up as a separate object for comparison with individuals. The truth here is blindingly obvious. MLK was clearly influenced by his chirstianity, and it's therefore totally fair for Christians to say - MLK is a great example of the high moral standards a Christian cam achieve. It's only a problem when some Christians emphasise this over and above all other dimensions of MLK, including his association with the Black socialist movement. It's weird to try to attribute everything to an individual, nobody exists in an uninformed moral vacuum On the other hand you can get to the position MLK did without believing in the Christian God, as many in the oft forgotten black labour movement did, as well as people like Malcolm X. You're just setting up false dichotomies and driving your argument to weird conclusions.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:34
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Who What Now posted:What? I'm saying the exact opposite. How do you separate what a man does from what a man believes? Its not about "claiming" Martin Luther King for PR points, he was a Christian minister first and foremost and to claim that Christianity was irrelevant to his life is retarded.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:34
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Miltank posted:How do you separate what a man does from what a man believes? Its not about "claiming" Martin Luther King for PR points, he was a Christian minister first and foremost and to claim that Christianity was irrelevant to his life is retarded. That is, in fact, exactly what it's about more often than not.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:36
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Who What Now posted:That is, in fact, exactly what it's about more often than not. So you are just shouting at strawmen then?
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Jan 28, 2015 01:37
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It's really too bad MLK never spoke about or wrote anything down concerning his identity or beliefs
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Jan 28, 2015 01:41
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Miltank posted:So you are just shouting at strawmen then? I wouldn't say that, considering you're here.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:46
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Miltank posted:How do you separate what a man does from what a man believes? Its not about "claiming" Martin Luther King for PR points, he was a Christian minister first and foremost and to claim that Christianity was irrelevant to his life is retarded.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:48
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Nessus posted:But I really think he should instead get classed as "a credit to his community," you know, those people (god-havers) Yes yes but are god-havers allowed to agree with this, or will that somehow negate King's ministry/identity?
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Jan 28, 2015 01:59
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McDowell posted:God personally wrote the BSG reboot to promote alt-heaven with a coat of Cylon technology. It's pretty widely acknowledged that there are rather significant Mormon themes in the new (and old) BSG actually.
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Jan 28, 2015 02:03
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BrandorKP posted:It's pretty widely acknowledged that there are rather significant Mormon themes in the new (and old) BSG actually. Oh I know, the idea of a play-acted rationalist heaven just reminded me of the implications of the new show's finale.
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Jan 28, 2015 02:08
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