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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

FreshlyShaven posted:

It seems pretty reasonable to criticize the side which is trying to start a war, rather than the one which is responding to repeated provocations.

There is very real reason to suspect Iran is shuffling weapons to Hezbollah through Syria, and very real reason why Hezbollah being better armed is a Bad Thing. Every strike in Syria involving the regime has been part of salvos back and forth when some dipshit SAA unit accidentally shells a field in Israel. Same thing happened with Syria and Turkey a couple years ago. Erdogan about lost his poo poo.

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Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Why do you think Israel expected nothing to come out of it? Seems to me like the wrong conclusion.
Good point. Given the election season, it's entirely possible that it's a deliberate attempt to provoke a "rally 'round the flag" moment. Judging by public opinion following the Gaza war, I imagine people will fall for it again.

New Division
Jun 23, 2004

I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.
It still might not escalate to a full scale war. For all of his bluster, Bibi doesn't actually like getting into shooting wars where the other side might inflict significant casualties on his side.

FreshlyShaven
Sep 2, 2004
Je ne veux pas d'un monde où la certitude de mourir de faim s'échange contre le risque de mourir d'ennui

Volkerball posted:

There is very real reason to suspect Iran is shuffling weapons to Hezbollah through Syria, and very real reason why Hezbollah being better armed is a Bad Thing.

How is Hezbollah being armed, especially considering it's in all-out war against Daesh, worse than Israel being armed? If anything, Hezbollah's weaponry has done exactly what it was intended to do: to deter attacks from Israel by imposing a real cost to attacking Lebanon.

quote:

Every strike in Syria involving the regime has been part of salvos back and forth when some dipshit SAA unit accidentally shells a field in Israel.

Do you have a source that proves that the attack on January 18 was caused by the Syrian army firing shells into Israel?

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Meh, I think if you'll ask any of the Druze living in the Israeli golan they'd tell you they're quite happy they're living under Bibi rather then under Assad and Al Qaeda. Comparing the death tolls would also make Bibi look like a saint.

Yes, I am sure if you asked most of the Jews, they would prefer it as well. Which means nothing, because that's not who is on the bottom in Israel.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

by Athanatos

SedanChair posted:

Yes, I am sure if you asked most of the Jews, they would prefer it as well. Which means nothing, because that's not who is on the bottom in Israel.

Yes that is a good irrelevant response and some nice hand wringing but perhaps you do not know that the Druze are the indigenous population to the Golan region? It is not like their history under Israeli rule has been all rosy and fun and indeed many fled/were-evicted during the 1967 conquest but those who remained until now (some 100k population) surely at the moment are somewhat happy to not be involved in the Syrian civil war. I know it's very hard for you to admit this but perhaps there are worse regimes out there than the Israeli ethnocracy? And Junior Assad's butcher regime surely is among those, again, just look at the death tolls.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Yes that is a good irrelevant response and some nice hand wringing but perhaps you do not know that the Druze are the indigenous population to the Golan region? It is not like their history under Israeli rule has been all rosy and fun and indeed many fled/were-evicted during the 1967 conquest but those who remained until now (some 100k population) surely at the moment are somewhat happy to not be involved in the Syrian civil war. I know it's very hard for you to admit this but perhaps there are worse regimes out there than the Israeli ethnocracy? And Junior Assad's butcher regime surely is among those, again, just look at the death tolls.

No, it doesn't occur at all. If you put Bibi in the position of Assad do you think you would get a less bloody result?

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

by Athanatos

SedanChair posted:

No, it doesn't occur at all. If you put Bibi in the position of Assad do you think you would get a less bloody result?

"Bibi's regime" = government of Israel yes? you seem really confused about this point, I am not entirely sure what would transpire had we somehow magically transplanted the entire Israeli government and Knesset in Damascus and allowed them to run the show, seems to be such a fantastical scenario that merely discussing it in such terms is a non-sequitur.

But yes, given the respective recent histories of both of these fail loser idiots I still think there's cause to think that Bibi comes positively ahead in every measurable criteria.

Doflamingo
Sep 20, 2006

emanresu tnuocca posted:

"Bibi's regime" = government of Israel yes? you seem really confused about this point, I am not entirely sure what would transpire had we somehow magically transplanted the entire Israeli government and Knesset in Damascus and allowed them to run the show, seems to be such a fantastical scenario that merely discussing it in such terms is a non-sequitur.

But yes, given the respective recent histories of both of these fail loser idiots I still think there's cause to think that Bibi comes positively ahead in every measurable criteria.

I also think that and I kind of wish Bibi was dead.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

by Athanatos

Doflamingo posted:

I also think that and I kind of wish Bibi was dead.

Yes of course I am not contesting the fact that he is a fail idiot loser and a terrible person I am just saying that he'd have to wake up very early in the morning to try to compete with Assad.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
What I mean is that if you thrust the Israeli government into the middle of a desperate war, not a pretend war like they are used to prosecuting, I do not think that they would have any more impressive a record on atrocity and death than the Syrian government has managed. The fact that the Syrian civil war is bloody is not a credit or any sort of proof that the Israeli government is "better." Please let go of the final, sad illusion that Israel has moral superiority over even one other nation in the middle east.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Two confirmed dead from Hezbollah attack. Things could get ugly. Already have Lieberman calling for a "disproportionate response".

Doflamingo
Sep 20, 2006

SedanChair posted:

What I mean is that if you thrust the Israeli government into the middle of a desperate war, not a pretend war like they are used to prosecuting, I do not think that they would have any more impressive a record on atrocity and death than the Syrian government has managed. The fact that the Syrian civil war is bloody is not a credit or any sort of proof that the Israeli government is "better." Please let go of the final, sad illusion that Israel has moral superiority over even one other nation in the middle east.

Wow it's like you can't separate the little thoughts in your head from reality at all. ):

Cugel the Clever posted:

Two confirmed dead from Hezbollah attack. Things could get ugly. Already have Lieberman calling for a "disproportionate response".

As opposed to all those totally in proportion responses of the past? Goddamn our ministers are a bunch of inbreds.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

One Day I Will Return To Your Side.
Gee, where have I heard of a religiously fanatic racialist colonist Minority (who aren't even from the region) that used it's monopoly on arms to attempt to ethnically destroy and enslave an entire people into an eternity of apartheid and bomb and invade OTHER COUNTRIES that they might be in?

I cant possibly think of ways Israel isn't as bad as Bashar when they wanted to impose themselves, nope not at all.

*Erases Palestine from existence, sends millions of Palestinians as refugees to the four corners, establishes prison ghettoes,Bombs schools with white phosphorous, bombs Beirut in massive bombing runs spanning several decades,builds apartheid walls, invades and occupies other countries*

nope. not at all.

Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jan 28, 2015

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
No Al-Saqr, it's all about body counts you see. They have more bodies and therefore Israel is the only democracy and defender of minorities etc.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Xandu posted:

Yeah I don't really have much of an issue with him bombing the crap out of the Syrian regime. Starting another war in Lebanon though...


edit: Missed this the first time around. That explains their response I guess.

As bad as the Syrian regime is, I don't really see how Israeli action is really going to improve anything. Ignoring all the hyperbolic crap about the relative morality of Israel vs Syria vs Hezbollah since that particular argument ranks somewhere between "stupid" and "meaningless", the fact of the matter is that Israel is unlikely to commit to full-scale positive regime change, and they probably don't have the capability to carry out an undertaking like that even if they wanted to. A full-scale shooting war is unlikely, it'll just be some skirmishes and bombings with no clear conclusion. Pointless dickwaving that benefits no one, regardless of whether SuperAssad can beat SSJ Bibi in an evilness contest or not.

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Main Paineframe posted:

Pointless dickwaving that benefits no one...

Not even Likud's election prospects?

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
No surprise that Hezbollah wrote the names of those killed in the Israeli airstrike on the shells used in the mortar strikes today. Maybe killing people for no good reason pisses off their friends? :iiam:

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

ComradeCosmobot posted:

Not even Likud's election prospects?

Protective Edge was good for the right-leaning parties in general, but the indecisive ending of the war was tremendously unpopular - apparently the Israeli public expected him to actually defeat Hamas or extract major concessions from them or otherwise accomplish something, not just aimlessly massacre people for a while and then call truce when he got bored of it. The resulting backlash took the wind out of Likud's gains as well as tanking public support for Netanyahu personally - his approval rating dropped six points the day after he announced the ceasefire. I think Likud still came out slightly ahead, and the other right-wing parties definitely benefited since they weren't affected by that backlash, but there's no guarantee the numbers will fall in Likud's favor if he tries to pull that again. The Israeli public has made clear that if Netanyahu starts a war they expect him to win it, and that they will regard a "okay, I've killed enough people to boost my poll numbers, how about we peace out and forget this whole mess" ending as a defeat.

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Main Paineframe posted:

The Israeli public has made clear that if Netanyahu starts a war they expect him to win it, and that they will regard a "okay, I've killed enough people to boost my poll numbers, how about we peace out and forget this whole mess" ending as a defeat.

Yeah, but Bibi only needs those poll numbers up until the election, right? What's to stop him from peacing out within 7 days of retaining control of the Knesset?

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Cugel the Clever posted:

No surprise that Hezbollah wrote the names of those killed in the Israeli airstrike on the shells used in the mortar strikes today. Maybe killing people for no good reason pisses off their friends? :iiam:


There was a very good reason to kill that Iranian advisor when Israel had the chance, it advanced the peace process and weakened the position of Iranian nuclear hardliners. Now, Iran continues to attempt to provoke a general war with Israel in order to distract from its collapsing economy. But of course, those drat jews are to blame for the fall in oil prices.

You sound like a Slav.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

My Imaginary GF posted:

There was a very good reason to kill that Iranian advisor when Israel had the chance, it advanced the peace process and weakened the position of Iranian nuclear hardliners.

If you want to advance the peace process by murdering people, you could start by the entirety of the Likud and every single settler. Let's remove actual obstacles to the roadmap.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

ComradeCosmobot posted:

Yeah, but Bibi only needs those poll numbers up until the election, right? What's to stop him from peacing out within 7 days of retaining control of the Knesset?

After Protective Edge, 60% of Israelis thought it had made the country less secure, and a majority expected that the country would be at war again within a year, with 36% predicting Israel would be at war again within six months. That's not exactly indicative of high expectations for Netanyahu. And those polling results were released exactly five months ago, so what is that 36% going to think if Netanyahu starts a war right now? Bombings and skirmishes are always going to benefit him, but putting boots on the ground or declaring a sustained campaign seems awfully risky. It might turn out well, but it might not, and he risks chasing off voters to the other right-wing parties who gained support during Protective Edge but weren't affected by the backlash that hit Likud after the ceasefire.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Cat Mattress posted:

If you want to advance the peace process by murdering people, you could start by the entirety of the Likud and every single settler. Let's remove actual obstacles to the roadmap.

"Kill the jews, the actual obstacles to the roadmap"

That's a bit deranged, I'd think a hardliner hellbent on acquiring nukes and provoking a regional war against Israel, killed while palling around with terrorists, is a bit more of a threat to peace than a nation with stable transitions of power via democratic institutions.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

by Athanatos
In less 'alternate histories' chat, apparently Israel has decided to 'contain' today's incident and refrain from further attacks while according to 'Israeli officials' Hezbollah conveyed a similar message through UNIFIL and so it seems like this particular round of violence is over.

Incredibly stupid this whole thing.

A Shitty Reporter
Oct 29, 2012
Dinosaur Gum

My Imaginary GF posted:

"Kill the jews, the actual obstacles to the roadmap"

That's a bit deranged, I'd think a hardliner hellbent on acquiring nukes and provoking a regional war against Israel, killed while palling around with terrorists, is a bit more of a threat to peace than a nation with stable transitions of power via democratic institutions.

How about actually addressing the complaint instead of hiding behind hypocritical accusations of bigotry? Or is that too much to ask from a genocide supporting quisling like you?

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon
"If you don't desire the genocide of Muslims, you desire the genocide of Jews."

You can safely refrain from responding to MIGF ever again, as anything he posts will be some unquantified variation of the above sentence, and his response to anything addressed at him will be a reworded version of the same.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

An Angry Bug posted:

How about actually addressing the complaint instead of hiding behind hypocritical accusations of bigotry? Or is that too much to ask from a genocide supporting quisling like you?

Whats the complaint, that Israel killed some terrorists operating in Syria? I don't support genocide, I support development of institutions which enable peaceful transitions of power while working under a framework acceptable to America. Sometimes that necessitates justified killing in order to enforce, sometimes it requires collective punishment in order to incentivize.

Or are you going to go on about how Iranians with connections to Iran's nuclear ambitions are just in Syria for entirely peaceful purposes, that Hezbollah is not guarding a couple hundred kgs of yellowcake near Homs in addition to a Syrian-Iranian joint centrifuge project, and that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization? I don't support plenty of Israeli policies; when it comes to security, I ask myself what would America do in Israel's position, and realize how rational and well thought out Israeli foreign policy tends to be.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

My Imaginary GF posted:

Whats the complaint, that Israel killed some terrorists operating in Syria? I don't support genocide, I support development of institutions which enable peaceful transitions of power while working under a framework acceptable to America. Sometimes that necessitates justified killing in order to enforce, sometimes it requires collective punishment in order to incentivize.

:catstare: Please, tell us more, Mr. Himmler.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

In less 'alternate histories' chat, apparently Israel has decided to 'contain' today's incident and refrain from further attacks while according to 'Israeli officials' Hezbollah conveyed a similar message through UNIFIL and so it seems like this particular round of violence is over.

Incredibly stupid this whole thing.

Israel is like the guy who starts a bar fight and throws a good punch, only to throw his hands up and declare that he's done fighting and play peacemaker. Should the victim attempt a self-defense, it was obvious he was asking for it.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 28, 2015

snyprmag
Oct 9, 2005

My Imaginary GF posted:

that Hezbollah is not guarding a couple hundred kgs of yellowcake near Homs in addition to a Syrian-Iranian joint centrifuge project
Got a source for that? Cause the closest Google brings up is Israel buying Yellowcake from Argentina

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

FreshlyShaven posted:

How is Hezbollah being armed, especially considering it's in all-out war against Daesh, worse than Israel being armed? If anything, Hezbollah's weaponry has done exactly what it was intended to do: to deter attacks from Israel by imposing a real cost to attacking Lebanon.

Where did I even imply a comparison between Hezbollah and Israel being armed? They aren't in "all-out" war with daesh. The Shia crescent is tag-teaming the moderate opposition with ISIS, that way the clear 2 choices are Assad or no poo poo terrorists. After that they'll go for ISIS, then they'll go for the Kurds. As far as them being armed right now, pictured: A Hezbollah fighter armed with the missile system used in the Ghouta chemical attack, posted on a Hezbollah facebook page prior to it.



SedanChair posted:

What I mean is that if you thrust the Israeli government into the middle of a desperate war, not a pretend war like they are used to prosecuting, I do not think that they would have any more impressive a record on atrocity and death than the Syrian government has managed. The fact that the Syrian civil war is bloody is not a credit or any sort of proof that the Israeli government is "better." Please let go of the final, sad illusion that Israel has moral superiority over even one other nation in the middle east.

While I tend to agree with your assessment, that's still just a hypothetical that could only be proven if Israel were thrown into the middle of a desperate war. 10,000 people tortured to death and the 2nd largest chemical weapons attack on a civilian populace in human history is a very high bar. They might be forced to be better, even against their wishes, because I don't think the US is politically capable of handwaving away the level of atrocities being committed in Syria were Shin Bet perpetrating them at the same scale.


My Imaginary GF posted:

I don't support genocide, I support development of institutions which enable peaceful transitions of power while working under a framework acceptable to America.

My Imaginary GF posted:

He's a bit of a loudmouth on ME issues, however, Sisi has been doing some great things for Egypt. For instance, Sisi continues to purge Egypt of islamist influences. This is a good thing, and something which America should firmly stand behind.

No, you definitely support genocide.

tsa
Feb 3, 2014

My Imaginary GF posted:

There was a very good reason to kill that Iranian advisor when Israel had the chance, it advanced the peace process and weakened the position of Iranian nuclear hardliners. Now, Iran continues to attempt to provoke a general war with Israel in order to distract from its collapsing economy. But of course, those drat jews are to blame for the fall in oil prices.

You sound like a Slav.

Do you enjoy jerking off directly into your mouth? I mean- apologize for the digression- but it seems like something you'd really enjoy.

Doflamingo posted:

Wow it's like you can't separate the little thoughts in your head from reality at all. ):


Despite my numerous disagreements with sedanchair he's perfectly honest here- it's silly to compare what Bibi would do now to what he would do if in the same place as Assad.

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,


My Imaginary GF posted:

There was a very good reason to kill that Iranian advisor when Israel had the chance, it advanced the peace process and weakened the position of Iranian nuclear hardliners. Now, Iran continues to attempt to provoke a general war with Israel in order to distract from its collapsing economy. But of course, those drat jews are to blame for the fall in oil prices.

You sound like a Slav.

The most offensive thing about this post is it's a non-sequitur from the post it's quoting. Someone remarks how Israel shouldn't be so surprised there were reprisals after an attack it committed and points to how the reprisal attacks were signed with the names of the victims of the Israeli raid as proof.

MIGF's post is pure diversion from the above's fairly coherent point to focus on whether Israel was justified in conducting the raid or not, trying to transitively claim that this retaliation was not provoked by Israel but is rather a deliberate part of an overall provocation by Iran, which absolves Israel of responsibility by making it seem like it was Iran and Hezbollah's intent to make Israel attack them and Israel had no choice but to do so in the name of peace. The "those drat jews" comment with oil prices borders on pure nonsense meant to do nothing but overheat discussion and guarantee the point is lost.

The whole thing is raw misdirection meant to lower the bar of discourse and give anyone attempting to challenge the overriding narrative about Israel a headache, the rhetorical equivalent of running out the clock because you're already winning. It's contemptible.

The Insect Court
Nov 22, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

CommieGIR posted:

:catstare: Please, tell us more, Mr. Himmler.


Israel is like the guy who starts a bar fight and throws a good punch, only to throw his hands up and declare that he's done fighting and play peacemaker. Should the victim attempt a self-defense, it was obvious he was asking for it.

:cry: Those poor Hezbollah innocents. Struck down while no doubt serving as tour guides for an Iranian general who was no doubt in town to see the sights. drat you Israeli monsters!

Xandu posted:

I don't know, it's pretty fascinating to me that in a conflict between Israel and the Syrian regime, one would come down on criticizing the Israelis. :)

Perfectly understandable if you adopt the mindset of someone who thinks Arabs only qualify as human life when being killed by Israel.

The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jan 29, 2015

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

The Insect Court posted:

:cry: Those poor Hezbollah innocents. Struck down while no doubt serving as tour guides for an Iranian general who was no doubt in town to see the sights.
Ha, if I didn't expect the worst of Israel's most unapologetic defenders, this line would almost surprise me. Do you kill your neighbors, too, when they stand to close to their side of the property line?

Edit: And just what are you trying to allege here? That Iran and Hezbollah were moments away from opening up another front in the Syrian quagmire against the strongest state in the region?

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jan 29, 2015

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Cugel the Clever posted:

Ha, if I didn't expect the worst of Israel's most unapologetic defenders, this line would almost surprise me. Do you kill your neighbors, too, when they stand to close to their side of the property line?

Well, you see, the property line was about to be extended via land seizures for settlements :smuggo:

The Insect Court
Nov 22, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Cugel the Clever posted:

Ha, if I didn't expect the worst of Israel's most unapologetic defenders, this line would almost surprise me. Do you kill your neighbors, too, when they stand to close to their side of the property line?

Hezbollah is widely acknowledged as an organized terrorist group motivated by radical Islamist and violent anti-semitic ideology.

Now, I know there are plenty of people in these threads who see that as a mark in their favor, but even they should be able to understand why Hezbollah militants are legitimate military targets.

Still, I'm a little surprised to see such open boosterism. I guess it doesn't matter how many hundreds of thousands of innocents you help a butcher like Assad slaughter, because if you kill some Israelis it will all be forgiven.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
yeah i dont know why people in this thread keep openly calling for the murder of all jews

theyre honestly just as bad as the devilspawn terror ghasts that have israel surrounded 24/7 just waiting for the day that the liberal traitor jews win and force israel to stop righteously preemptively defending itself from literally all its barbarian neighbors and the evil callous rocket phantoms that naturally arise from the ether wherever muslims dwell

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Seriously, regardless of Hezbollah's ideology, assassinating legitimate officials (and their guest!) inside of their own country is a blatant act of war.

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Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

The Insect Court posted:

Hezbollah is widely acknowledged as an organized terrorist group motivated by radical Islamist and violent anti-semitic ideology.

Now, I know there are plenty of people in these threads who see that as a mark in their favor, but even they should be able to understand why Hezbollah militants are legitimate military targets.

Still, I'm a little surprised to see such open boosterism. I guess it doesn't matter how many hundreds of thousands of innocents you help a butcher like Assad slaughter, because if you kill some Israelis it will all be forgiven.
Turns out that I can condemn the Assad regime and its allies for its egregious crimes against Sunnis in Syria and still find it appalling when Israel flouts basic concepts of national sovereignty to commit belligerent acts against its neighbors, particularly when the Israeli government then has the nerve to act surprised that there was retaliation. It's the same frame of mind that led to the atrocity that was the most recent Israeli slaughter in Gaza: the same old "We feel vaguely threatened so we'll just kill all these people or jail a few hundred Palestinians and oh my god someone shot at us we must react with disproportionate force."

The Israeli leadership is either unwilling or unable to grasp the other side's perception of events and are quick to escalate against opponents that are exponentially weaker than they are.

In other news, John Green of Crash Course World History has put out a pretty decent backgrounder on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wo2TLlMhiw

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