|
CommieGIR posted:Except for all the glaring character flaws. Everyone has character flaws. Doesn't mean they can't be good.
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:42 |
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:Everyone has character flaws. Doesn't mean they can't be good. Hitler was a nice guy too, I'm sure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:04
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Hitler was a nice guy too, I'm sure. He was a dog lover.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:He was a dog lover. Holocaust: Not Guilty on account of being a Dog Lover. Hitler could have begged forgiveness at Nuremberg had he survived and he STILL would've been executed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:Here it is, again and again: "God is bad, God is evil, we shouldn't respect God." This is the real atheistic argument. Shocking, I tell you, to see that from either ignorance or purposeful dishonesty you have misconstrued our position. The argument is IF the Christian God existed, and possessed the characteristics usually attributed to him by most of his believers, and this world was the best he was able or willing to come up with, THEN he'd have quite a bit to answer. However, since there doesn't seem to be much to suggest that he does exist at all, and vanishingly little which doesn't presuppose his existed axiomatically among those things purported to show that he does, it seems much more likely he's just another mythological construct.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Shocking, I tell you, to see that from either ignorance or purposeful dishonesty you have misconstrued our position. The argument is IF the Christian God existed, and possessed the characteristics usually attributed to him by most of his believers, and this world was the best he was able or willing to come up with, THEN he'd have quite a bit to answer. I explained that, he does not grasp that we are simply saying that God's character is a paradox if he did exist, and makes no rational sense.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:07
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I explained that, he does not grasp that we are simply saying that God's character is a paradox if he did exist, and makes no rational sense. I started typing that before you replied and it took me as while, as it originally had a tepid burn against Brandor in it that I couldn't quite make work so I had to edit it out!
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:I started typing that before you replied and it took me as while, as it originally had a tepid burn against Brandor in it that I couldn't quite make work so I had to edit it out! It's okay, we're just a bunch of
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:11
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Shocking, I tell you, to see that from either ignorance or purposeful dishonesty you have misconstrued our position. The argument is IF the Christian God existed, and possessed the characteristics usually attributed to him by most of his believers, and this world was the best he was able or willing to come up with, THEN he'd have quite a bit to answer. There are two separate arguments. The first is the morality of God, and the second is the "likelihood of his existence." But they are connected. You say, "God cannot exist because the world has bad things, and if God existed, there would be no evil." And therefore: "If God did exist, he would be a bad person for allowing evil." So you see, your view that God is evil is precisely why you think God does not exist. If you accepted that God is actually good, and that his creation is good, despite containing evil, then you would understand that God exists.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:There are two separate arguments. The first is the morality of God, and the second is the "likelihood of his existence." God literally cannot exist and be good, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:14
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:If you accepted that God is actually good, and that his creation is good, despite containing evil, then you would understand that God exists. Except for all the evil directly caused by god. There's that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:There are two separate arguments. The first is the morality of God, and the second is the "likelihood of his existence." No, you idiot, that's not what I'm saying. I don't think God exists because there's nothing much to suggest that he does, not because there's bad poo poo in the world. The mere existence of evil doesn't inform my conclusions on the non-existence of the Christian deity, but it does allow, and read this next bit slowly since you're not that bright and it seems to have confused you when I said it the first time, me to explore the hypothetical that IF the Christian God existed, and possessed the characteristics usually attributed to him by most of his believers, and this world was the best he was able or willing to come up with, THEN he'd have quite a bit to answer. However, and again I'm repeating myself hoping this time it'll manage to sink in, I've yet to hear any particularly compelling to suggest he does exist at all, so it's just a thought exercise. This is not me saying, "God cannot exist because the world has bad things, and if God existed, there would be no evil," but rather, "God doesn't appear to exist at all, regardless of whether or not evil exists in the world." Who What Now posted:God literally cannot exist and be good, though. He could if he's not actually omnipotent or any of the other things usually attributed to him, though it'd be questionable under those circumstances whether he'd really deserve to be called God in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:21
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:That does basically amount to saying that god doesn't actually want us to be happy, because if he did he would have created us that way. Agreed. As children we would call god a knobhead. He should have bought us a mustang like the other kids whos parents love them. god could have created us perfect from the start. Then we would be what I imagine angels are like. Living in heaven doing whatever heaven beings do. Yet we exist. We dont know why. It involves suffering. But also happiness. As a species our existence is becoming more pleasant with the march of technology and the evolution of our moral compass. in the old testament slavery and genocide were a thing. Right now child rape is a thing. In 3000 years, in a million years hopefully it wont be a thing. Our species growing up, maturing is gonna have us doing horrible things in the meantime. Adolescents do a lot of stupid crap for no reason other than they haven't matured enough and are still behaving like monkeys.(breaking stuff for no reason) God has the option to love the human species. And create us in such a way that along the path of growing up we stick the fork in the socket to learn not to. Both things are possible. He also has the option to make us perfecr from the start. Or make the process completely free of bad stuff. aka angels already exist we are not them. We can throw a tantrum that gods making us go thru trials/tribulations. That he designed man capable of child rape. And I completely understand the viewpoint. But to my mind I can still worship a god that made us this way instead of another way. I can still march to the drummers beat of technological/moral advance. And keep my eyes on the horizon/goal of creating the perfect society (heaven on earth as the bible says). And I can be grateful, respectful for existence as it is
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:24
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:We can throw a tantrum that gods making us go thru trials/tribulations. That he designed man capable of child rape. And I completely understand the viewpoint. Committing genocide by flooding the world/wiping cities off maps is not the same as 'putting us through trials and tribulations' Unless you think god made the Jews go through the Holocaust as a 'trial', and if that's true, what the gently caress is wrong with your god? And considering only one of these things actually happened in reality (Holocaust), yet the other is still attributed to him, why should he be God? logosanatic posted:Right now child rape is a thing. In 3000 years, in a million years hopefully it wont be a thing. Our species growing up, maturing is gonna have us doing horrible things in the meantime. Adolescents do a lot of stupid crap for no reason other than they haven't matured enough and are still behaving like monkeys.(breaking stuff for no reason) Sadly, it'll still be a thing, because rape is about power over the victim and/or humiliating them. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:28
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:more I'm going to be perfectly serious with you for a moment: Did paragraphs beat you up in school? It's ok to still be a little afraid, but you shouldn't let it rule your life.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:There are two separate arguments. The first is the morality of God, and the second is the "likelihood of his existence." I don't think God exists, but I'm not entirely sure. I think the world is pretty good, even though it's not perfect, whether God created it or not. But if God exists, I think he's a real dickhole, whether he made evil on purpose or whether it's just not in his power to stop. So the one thing I am certain of is that I don't want to worship God, even if I believed he did exist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:31
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:Here it is, again and again: "God is bad, God is evil, we shouldn't respect God." This is the real atheistic argument. Well no, it's my argument against other people's proposals about god most of the time. It's certainly not the universal atheist/agnostic viewpoint. My actual outlook, for the third or fourth time, is that there isn't a god and the universe doesn't intend anything for us. It just is. The way it is leaves much to be desired too, but, the great thing about being human and about there not being a god, is that we are quite free to work to make it better. Rather more productive than fussing about what a non-existant god thinks about you. We aren't here to suffer, we aren't here for anything, other than what we decide we want to be here for. So pick something worthwhile to be here for, you might as well, because nobody's going to give you a purpose. I find that infinitely more optimistic than the idea that God sat down and said everything is the way it is, you can't do jack poo poo about it, and if you don't like it you're an idiot who doesn't understand that all the stuff you don't like, you actually should like, because you ain't sucking god's dick hard enough if you don't like it. Personally I've never much cared for developing celestial stockholm syndrome, seems a bit wasteful. logosanatic posted:Agreed. As children we would call god a knobhead. He should have bought us a mustang like the other kids whos parents love them. Yeah see that doesn't actually work as an analogy, because the reason you teach your kids moderation is because you can't just magically make them happy for their entire lives. God can do that, so the whole bollocks about it being a parenting analogy doesn't make any sense. Why worship something that, according to you, looked at the possible course of life for every human and said 'y'know, gently caress it, they can just suffer a bunch, just because.' What about that is worthy of worship? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:32
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:God has the option to love the human species. And create us in such a way that along the path of growing up we stick the fork in the socket to learn not to. Both things are possible. I will grant you that God can both love and and wish to challenge us. However, I will not grant you that child rape is necessary to this because that is a morally despicable position to take and the fact that you can't at the very least agree with this in incredibly trouble. It is also not "throwing a tantrum" to point out that if God designed this world for us, even if it was to test us, that he made it full of needless and senseless cruelty.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:33
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:God literally cannot exist and be good, though. In math, physics, science there are many paradoxes 1) light is both a wave and a particle 2) time, matter did not exist before the big bang. Yet matter can not be created or destroyed 3) nothing can travel faster than light yet the universe expanded faster than light during the big bang Etc etc. A childs understand of good/evil vs an adult who understands that sometimes you have to deny yourself immediate gratification for long term benefit. Theres research that correlates a childs ability to resist eating a marshmallow. How long they resist correlates to success as an adult. We may demand that god cant exist, be good and allow evil. Yet paradoxes exist. And our 3 dimensional human brains inability to comprehend both coexisting doesnt define what is possible (Examples 1 - 3 and etc examples  )another paradox is free will vs a god that knows and controls all. to the human brain time is mostly one direction forward. Thats how our 3d brains comprehend the universe. Lets say god exists in the 4th dimension. To him moving forward or back in time is the same as me moving across my room 3d monkey style. Scientists currently say there are 25 dimensions? Less..more? Im seeing different numbers. In 1 million years how many dimensions will scientists say exist. What would a god of 25 or infinite dimensions be capable of? What we demand as possible doesnt apply to god. Our definition of good is very primitive. By our child definition of good, god may not fit into that definition. But if god exists not only is he not bound by our definition of good. Its fair to assume that we dont really know whats good for us anyways. The way a baby doesnt know whats good for it (chocolate all day every day...or in my daughters case mac and cheese all day everyday)
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:38
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:In math, physics, science there are many paradoxes None of those are paradoxes. Or necessarily true.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:39
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Committing genocide by flooding the world/wiping cities off maps is not the same as 'putting us through trials and tribulations' I dont think god did the flood stuff. I think thats primitive man thinking gods caused lightning, floods, volcanoes, famine genocide and slaves were a big thing in the old testament. But Im seeing less and less of that as history progresses. in 30 thousand years how can we say how moral man will be. If we have made so much progress in the past 5k years
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:42
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:genocide and slaves were a big thing in the old testament. But Im seeing less and less of that as history progresses. in 30 thousand years how can we say how moral man will be. If we have made so much progress in the past 5k years You really aren't looking very hard then, if anything we've only gotten better at genocide over the years.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:gently caress I don't know, and neither do you, nor can you know you primitive monkey you. As long as nothing horrifying happens to you, the unspeakable horrors that happen to others are just some form of 11th dimensional chess that God plays and we can't understand, and their suffering doesn't matter.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:46
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:In math, physics, science there are many paradoxes Two of these things aren't are actually true, though, and none of them are parodoxes. Nothing precludes light being a particle and a wave, although it might be better to call it a particle that behaves like a wave, there's no good reason to believe matter did not exist "before" the big bang because that'a nonsensical application of before (time was also not "created" because it's not actually a "thing", it's an expression of a changing of states) and it's only mass that cannot move faster than light. EDIT: You've ignored that you're wrong on scientific points three times now. Don't be that guy. logosanatic posted:Etc etc. Sorry, I'm not a child and my ability to comprehend morality is every bit as capable as god's and if he exists almost certainly exceeds god's. If you see yourself as a child then you need to stop and treat yourself with more dignity and respect than that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:46
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:None of those are paradoxes. Or necessarily true. they may not be true. Science changes things as new information becomes available. but for now those paradoxes exist and many more. Why do you say those are not paradoxes? science says something shouldnt be possible yet it exists and they dont know how to reconcile the two. perhaps a different example. This ones from memory so Ill probably get slammed for getting it wrong(details matter) In chaos theory mathematics The position of an electron. Or the spin of an atom?(cant not be defined until you look at it). Until you look/measure it its spinning both left and right. And the electron is everwhere in the electron cloud. Does that qualify as a paradox? If not those someone help me out surely a better paradox example exists?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:49
|
|
|
TwoQuestions posted:As long as nothing horrifying happens to you, the unspeakable horrors that happen to others are just some form of 11th dimensional chess that God plays and we can't understand, and their suffering doesn't matter. Somewhere in America, a man pauses from typing a manifesto entitled "Baraminology: Protobear Harder" and, without understanding why, checks to see whether or not there's still a refugee crisis in South Sudan, as well as the local weather.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:they may not be true. Science changes things as new information becomes available. but for now those paradoxes exist and many more. Science doesn't say that they're impossible, you dolt, and that's why they aren't parodoxes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:I dont think god did the flood stuff. I think thats primitive man thinking gods caused lightning, floods, volcanoes, famine IF the stuff they attributed to god was made up, why not the rest? logosanatic posted:In math, physics, science there are many paradoxes Not paradoxes. They are fundamental rules of nature based on evidence gathered. Also: Time/Matter and the Big Bang: We don't KNOW what did or did not exist prior to the Big Bang, because it wiped it out and background radiation left over from it blinds us from what exists beyond. And number three is likely not true.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
CowOnCrack posted:Believing the Gospel and Scripture is like accepting an axiom or an assumption that changes the way you perceive everything in reality, including the 'problem of evil'. The problem of evil is no longer a problem if you believe. The problem of evil is only a problem if you believe. For atheists, the problem of evil is easily solved by accepting that the universe is largely indifferent* to human notions of morality. I think what you mean is, "the problem of evil is no longer a problem if you believe that it's not a problem". Is this what you're trying to say? If so, it's not a terribly enlightening addition to this discussion (unless you believe it is a terribly enlightening addition, of course!) *I say "largely indifferent" because humans are part of the universe, and many humans are not indifferent to morality.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:54
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:they may not be true. Science changes things as new information becomes available. but for now those paradoxes exist and many more. You're so wrong on everything you wrote that it's pretty much impossible to talk to you. Just shut up about electrons, chaos theory and everything else you don't understand.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:56
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:
go easy Im writing from my phone which takes longer and theres way more people respondig to me. Its not a 1 on 1 conversation I cant keep up with it all my son also doesnt want to be treated as a child. In his mind hes equally mentally developed to the adults around him. 80% of adults believe their above average intelligence. Its human nature, ego? To think the way youve just expressed. If god exists then we are much worse than children compared to him. Children is a convenient analogy for people to understand. I can totally understand when people say god doesnt exist. And I agree the god of the old testament is pitifal creation by morally primitive man. If god does exist though then its silly to me that someone would try to measure up to him. If you dont agree with his methods then you have to make allowance that its your intellectual failing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:they may not be true. Science changes things as new information becomes available. but for now those paradoxes exist and many more. 1. Light is not both a wave and a particle, it behaves like both a wave and a particle, light is conveyed by photons, which are particles. It behaves in a manner similar to waves. I don't know why, but it's not a paradox. 2. Nobody knows what existed before the big bang, one hypothesis is that of a reciprocating universe, which collapses, expands, and collapses repeatedly, being an entirely self contained system. Matter also can be created or destroyed, in the sense it can be converted into energy and back. 3. The universe is not matter, it is the thing in which matter exists. Matter theoretically cannot travel faster than the speed of light, but information can, which forms the basis of the theory of quantum entanglement. As we can't really look at the edge of the universe, we can't study how it works, but the speed of light as a limit to velocity only applies to things which have velocity, which may not apply to the fabric of the universe itself. Also, we weren't at the big bang, so we don't know how fast it went, so the point may be entirely moot. Additionally, in general, apparent contradictions in scientific theories do not denote a contradiction in the nature of reality, it probably indicates that one of the theories is wrong on the matter, and more investigation is required to determine which one is incorrect. I don't think you are sufficiently educated on the subject to make the kinds of deductions you are making.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:I'm going to be perfectly serious with you for a moment: Did paragraphs beat you up in school? It's ok to still be a little afraid, but you shouldn't let it rule your life. Im seeing paragraphs on my screen. Are there no paragraphs...or do you mean indentations for paragraphs?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:02
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:go easy Im writing from my phone which takes longer and theres way more people respondig to me. Its not a 1 on 1 conversation I cant keep up with it all  This is so terrible its ironically hilarious.logosanatic posted:my son also doesnt want to be treated as a child. In his mind hes equally mentally developed to the adults around him. Mysteriously, most children still have basic moral ideals until they are robbed of them by their parents or guardians if abused. Are you saying our basic moral principles as humans are wrong because 'we do not measure up to god?' "Sorry son, you won't understand why I'm a hateful drunk because you cannot yet measure up to me" logosanatic posted:If god does exist though then its silly to me that someone would try to measure up to him. If you dont agree with his methods then you have to make allowance that its your intellectual failing. Please explain everyone elses god and why your god is the CORRECT god. Why not Zeus, Odin, etc.? Their weird fanatical idea that your religion is correct and your god is real versus everyone elses is laughable. How do you know you don't measure up to Cthulhu? Why is THAT god false, while yours is true? This weird idea that we must be measured by a being who shows no more of himself in reality than a character in a fiction book is some extreme mental gymnastics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:go easy Im writing from my phone which takes longer and theres way more people respondig to me. Its not a 1 on 1 conversation I cant keep up with it all So do you acknowledge that you're wrong on the scientific points or not?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
I prefer the shepherd-sheep analogy to parent-child because it better illustrates the gap of understanding. A more modern parable might be owner-pet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
logosanatic posted:Im seeing paragraphs on my screen. Are there no paragraphs...or do you mean indentations for paragraphs? Every one appears as a sentence or two, then a line break. Coupled with your fairly lightweight content, especially with your superficial understanding of what you incorrectly term "paradoxes," it contributes to your posts coming off as those of a man who is profoundly stoned.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:05
|
|
|
God is your friend, man. He's your bro. Are you going to turn on a bro?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:05
|
|
|
Miltank posted:I prefer the shepherd-sheep analogy to parent-child because it better illustrates the gap of understanding. A more modern parable might be owner-pet. How? Sheep still lack the basic intellect to understand their purpose, it doesn't fit the analogy because we can clearly comprehend and question a non-real entity versus sheep which have no other drive than their basest instincts. Kyrie eleison posted:God is your friend, man. He's your bro. Are you going to turn on a bro? Does god lift, bro? Seriously, bro culture is toxic and misogynistic. Don't do that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:42 |
|
|
Also, even if a child isn't as developed in their ability to make moral judgements they still know that when their father beats them with a broom handle until their arm is broken that it was morally wrong of their father. And they're completely correct. Likewise even if my ability to make moral judgements as god I'm still right when I say that there is needless and unjustifiable evil in the world.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 22:06
|
|