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DrPaper posted:I think people complaining about the black and white judgement of the show need to realize, these people are being judged by a character explicitly stated and recognized by himself to not be human, and has already admitted to mistakes in his judgement. Queendecim is not the afterlife everyone receives, it's the one these people who died at the same time got stuck with. If there's one thing to take away from the show it's that life isn't fair, and neither is death. Yeah, you can mock Decim for being a spergy goonlord, but the point is that he's meant to be an emotionless and impartial arbiter. As we've seen though, that doesn't work for some edge cases like Episodes 1 & 2, hence why he's now got an assistant to call him on his actions occasionally. cammy14 posted:While I don't think Misaki really deserved being voided, she's definitely the worse of the two just because her abusive behavior must have hurt quite a few people over the years. I imagine the misgivings most people have toward the verdict is that she looked like she have the capability to change into a better person given the chance. Misaki was fundamentally in it for herself. She even derides her own children as worthless when they turn up as an attack that turns out to be pretty weak. And the short of it is that she got sent to the Void because all she'd do is make bad decisions all over again. tlarn posted:Well there's the thread title to go with the anime title. Actually, I've got a contender; It's not about whether they win or lose, it's how they play the game.
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Feb 2, 2015 13:12
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to be honest, i think the reason misato was voided and nerd lord was reincarnated was it was explicitly obvious that misato would do exactly the same thing if she had to. she states just as much when she begs to be sent back because she and her children had just begun to be able to live happily. she reveled in the behavior that lead to her death, and not even the reflection she was forced to go through shook her belief that she was finally on the right path. meanwhile, nerd lord realized how much he had hosed up and hurt people with his actions, and actually wished to redeem himself.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:09
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Misaki was fundamentally in it for herself. She even derides her own children as worthless when they turn up as an attack that turns out to be pretty weak. And the short of it is that she got sent to the Void because all she'd do is make bad decisions all over again. I don't think this is true at all. From her flashback, she got knocked up as a school girl after having sex in a bathroom, had a shotgun wedding and then was abused regularly before her first husband finally left her. Her subsequent partners all abused her but throughout her whole journey, she still took care of her kids. Sure, it looks like her eldest two children hate her but that's because they're children and unaware of what their mother has been through. You can see it in her last flash back when she calls her family to tell them that she has to break her promise and she can't make it home because her agent booked her without notice She's been let down by the entire world and when she cries for help and her children come to her aid, she gets let down again because their attack is so weak. I don't think either of them should have been voided since they both had potential to grow but as the others have said, it's only your actions in Queendecim that count, not your life before.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:24
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A persons action in quindecim directly correlates to how you'd act in the living world. The actress almost certainly wouldn't have "grown" anymore in the real world because she failed to do so in Quindecim. For example, even after slamming the otaku against the machine like she did, she could still have been sent to reincarnation had she taken a different action after it was done. Say she regreted her actions enough to take control of the otaku's character and finish herself out with him then Decim would almost certainly have spared her. On the other hand, the otaku was suffering from mental illness caused by neglect/abuse when he was a child. He couldn't make sense of his own actions when he remembered them because he wasn't being burdened by his hosed up brain anymore. Had he continued to act in this distant and emotionless way during the game then it wasn't really a physical problem, it was his own soul that was hosed up and he probably would have been voided too.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:48
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Cao Ni Ma posted:A persons action in quindecim directly correlates to how you'd act in the living world. The actress almost certainly wouldn't have "grown" anymore in the real world because she failed to do so in Quindecim. For example, even after slamming the otaku against the machine like she did, she could still have been sent to reincarnation had she taken a different action after it was done. Say she regreted her actions enough to take control of the otaku's character and finish herself out with him then Decim would almost certainly have spared her. Had the mother and the otaku switched places then I don't think there's any doubt that things would have been different. After all it's Decim himself who highlights that things are never fair. If all you've known in your whole life is surviving by any means necessary then you'd do exactly that if you ended up in Quindecim. I don't think her wanting to win the game even by beating up the otaku is a sign that she was beyond redemption. I can't imagine that there isn't a loving parent who wouldn't lie, cheat or steal to protect their children. Had the mother been given more time on earth then I think she would have mellowed out. After all, even in her final moments all she could think about was her children.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:36
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DrPaper posted:You're not supposed to end up at Queendecim. They state so in the opening it's a fluke that happens when two people die at the same time, so they have to compete to be judged. A few things: first, are some of you using a translation that says Queendecim? I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be Quindecim, or the number 15. Second, it's not a fluke, it's just one of the ways to be judged. Decim's monologue doesn't qualify Quindecim as the only place to be judged, it's just their job. We can probably assume different stuff happens on different floors, but floor 15 happens to be interesting to watch. Presumably people with more cut-and-dry cases and/or who died alone go to a different floor and receive quick judgement. Third, it feels like there is a pre-screening process, which gives an initial judgement prior to arrival at Quindecim and probably also determines which floor they need to go to for the most appropriate judgement. Episode 3 initially had the girl set for the void and the guy set for reincarnation. Although this is just my interpretation; it may just be default that the left elevator is void and the right is reincarnation.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:58
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AnacondaHL posted:A few things: first, are some of you using a translation that says Queendecim? I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be Quindecim, or the number 15. The site provides more information about the afterlife. There are 90 floor in each tower (there are multiple towers), one tower manager that resides in the final floor (Nona in ours). There's a person in charge of sorting the incoming souls to particular floors. There are people in charge of sorting the souls memory and transmitting them into the arbiters. If you think an arbiters job is hard, these two are a whole lot more demanding. The reason why we only seem to get japanese people in this tower is because this tower is japans regional tower. It sounds like everyone goes through this process when they die.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:05
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Kegslayer posted:Had the mother and the otaku switched places then I don't think there's any doubt that things would have been different. After all it's Decim himself who highlights that things are never fair. she was beyond redemption because she never took responsibility for the evil she comitted. yes, she was treated like poo poo, and she treated others like poo poo because of it just like nerd boy, but nerd boy realized what a shithead he'd been and would change things if he had a second chance. the mother never recognized or acknowledged the lovely things she had done, just the lovely things that had been done to her.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:07
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AnacondaHL posted:A few things: first, are some of you using a translation that says Queendecim? I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be Quindecim, or the number 15. If you look carefully, you can see the bottom of "Quindecim" as a sign above the bar.. Kegslayer posted:Had the mother and the otaku switched places then I don't think there's any doubt that things would have been different. After all it's Decim himself who highlights that things are never fair. You've got the emphasis wrong. They weren't her CHILDREN, they were HER children. Everything was about her, and even as a mother she had little sympathy or kindness for others, which is what lead to her own murder and continued to show right to the point of braining the guy into the arcade monitor. There's a difference between doing anything for your kids and going for the sociopath option of straight-off manipulating a stranger to put yourself ahead of whatever happens because you want to come out on top. Hell, she even put her kids on a reality TV show. In the end she was her own worst victim, and the product of her own poor life choices. She got flushed to the void because that cycle of poor choices would've just occurred all over again.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:10
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I think that Quindecim isn't really about rewards vs. punishment, as in the traditional Christian view of souls being judged for paradise or torment. Or about one person being brought back to life and the other not. Rather, it's a system for determining which souls would be more beneficial by going back into the cycle and which would be more harmful. If that's the case, the soul would somehow have an influence over what kind of person each individual is, that a good soul would result in a good person and a bad soul in a bad person, to keep it simple. It may also be that the experiences of the individual, both in life and in Quindecim, can mold the soul, so that one that's gone through this trial and proven itself would be more beneficial than one that failed when given that one, final chance. Or that could all be an entirely wrong reading of the situation, there's still a lot of details that we don't really know about this system and what each verdict entails.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Hell, she even put her kids on a reality TV show. In the end she was her own worst victim, and the product of her own poor life choices. She got flushed to the void because that cycle of poor choices would've just occurred all over again. Yeah and she's not a good mother but a lot of people decide to join reality TV shows iirc in the USA there's a bunch of similarly themed series ongoing even now. Is it the best environment for growing up? No but as the viewers we can't judge it because it's just one snapshot of her life. I agree with how the Void isn't supposed to be good or bad. It just exists where the person decides when the "Try Again?" comes up after a Game Over per se. Instead of starting over at level 1 they decide to turn off the game and not continue. Also, Nona is the more cynical of the two hosts and knows from her personal exp how people don't always change despite getting a second chance. Thanks for the TL from the site about the tower and it's actually the JPN regional place vs IDK global tower.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:02
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Meh. Twenty minutes is not enough to set up interesting characters, and they are kinda forced to use stereotypes to help provide info. This show should have already veered away from the same formula after episode 3. If the next episode is the same old poo poo I guess that'll be it for me. I mean, we can discuss why this caricature or that caricature deserves its fate but, in the end, they are pretty lovely uninteresting characters so why should I give a gently caress?
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Feb 3, 2015 01:33
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ITT you are all ungrateful children  Seriously though, the mother wasn't a bad mother by any context. She raised five kids all on her own and becoming a reality TV star shouldn't be held against her when you consider that she got pregnant in high school in Japan. Your options are already extremely limited as a woman and more so for someone like her. That fact that even as a star, she calls her kids and tells them she has to break a promise and can't make it home shows that she isn't just possessive of her children, she does these things for them. I feel like the show kind of cheats a bit though. The characters are deliberately ambiguous, the system unfair and we know that Decim is fallible.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:57
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I thought they showed the pre-murder scene juxtaposed against the phone call back home to enforce what a piece of poo poo she was. People don't just murder their lovely boss on a whim. She puts on a face and an act as she needs to, and is overall abusive to everyone. The older siblings could see through her farce. I'd even argue she brought up the whole "but my children and I were finally having a good life!" as part of her cheap bargaining in the face of imminent death as she zoomed through the traditional five stages of grief.
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Feb 3, 2015 04:27
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Maybe Decim just really hates reality TV.
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Feb 3, 2015 06:59
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AnacondaHL posted:I thought they showed the pre-murder scene juxtaposed against the phone call back home to enforce what a piece of poo poo she was. People don't just murder their lovely boss on a whim. She puts on a face and an act as she needs to, and is overall abusive to everyone. The older siblings could see through her farce. I'd even argue she brought up the whole "but my children and I were finally having a good life!" as part of her cheap bargaining in the face of imminent death as she zoomed through the traditional five stages of grief. If Misaki physically abused her children, then I'm pretty sure that the show would explicitly show it. But it doesn't. There is no evidence she has ever struck her children the same way she stuck her assistant or the way she was struck by her ex-husband. She's been trying to support her family in her own flawed way, and takes out her frustrations on people outside her family.
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Feb 3, 2015 07:24
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Phobophilia posted:If Misaki physically abused her children, then I'm pretty sure that the show would explicitly show it. But it doesn't. There is no evidence she has ever struck her children the same way she stuck her assistant or the way she was struck by her ex-husband. She's been trying to support her family in her own flawed way, and takes out her frustrations on people outside her family. Physical abuse isn't the only type of abuse.
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Feb 3, 2015 08:28
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And did we see emotional abuse? The worse we saw was her offloading responsibilities to her oldest children while she worked at home. No alcoholism, no drugs, no screaming at the kids, none of those cliches.
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Feb 3, 2015 09:32
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Phobophilia posted:And did we see emotional abuse? The worse we saw was her offloading responsibilities to her oldest children while she worked at home. No alcoholism, no drugs, no screaming at the kids, none of those cliches. Multiple abusive spouses, and however many men she drunkenly dragged home. Take a moment to remember just how small a cheap japanese apartment is in regard to that second one.
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Feb 3, 2015 10:01
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Multiple abusive spouses, and however many men she drunkenly dragged home. Take a moment to remember just how small a cheap japanese apartment is in regard to that second one. Hey, we never said she didn't make poor decisions, and she seems to have a track record of latching onto men with money in hopes of a better life only to be betrayed. It's why she thought the reality TV show was so great, because it was a way to get the money she needed. If she really didn't care about the kids, she would have dumped them at some early opportunity. But yeah, I doubt many kids can respect their parents if they see them live like that, even if it is for them. At the very least, she was a neglectful mother because she had to do her work all the time, which is a common cliche even with rich well-off families that have workaholic parents. Someone already pointed it out before, but there is an interesting contrast between her and the otaku in how they responded to abuse, but also how their own luck in the world worked out. Misaki was abused by different partners multiple times, but she was constantly looking for love only to be disappointed again and again, and never had any support. The otaku was abused by his mother, but he had his father who divorced her, as well as a stepmom who hoped to forge a loving relationship between them, but he never realized that until too late. I do hope we get elaboration on what the qualifications for getting voided are soon, because I'm starting to think that getting voided was the right judgement for her, but that's dependent on how the system and souls work. Like in the case of the first dude, his soul was always gonna be suspicious and make people unhappy, which would be grounds for void, but in the case of Misaki, she is basically a product of her environment, which broke her soul enough that reincarnating won't start her afresh and she'll retain that negative influence, so they have to void her. Course, Billiards is still the weird outlier, hence why the elaboration can't come soon enough. Allarion fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 10:37
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How do you contrast her caring about her family with her ignoring a crying child to eat breakfast and read (what I presume is a script)? Sure, they didn't show emotional abuse or physical abuse being inflicted on her children, but its a bit weird to claim she did it ALL FOR HER CHILDREN  when she blatantly ignores one of them crying in favour of reading a script. She doesn't even look conflicted in scene. She's smiling.
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Feb 3, 2015 12:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Multiple abusive spouses, and however many men she drunkenly dragged home. Take a moment to remember just how small a cheap japanese apartment is in regard to that second one. She would have no way of knowing that her partners would abuse her and believe it or not, single moms are allowed to go out and get laid or enjoy themselves. Her kids were already asleep so its not like she's irresponsible. Conot posted:How do you contrast her caring about her family with her ignoring a crying child to eat breakfast and read (what I presume is a script)? Sure, they didn't show emotional abuse or physical abuse being inflicted on her children, but its a bit weird to claim she did it ALL FOR HER CHILDREN I'm guessing you don't have children? Kids cry all the time and the kid was already being looked after by older kids. She's had five kids and is an experienced mother. Its hardly abuse or proof that she wasn't looking after her kids. The characters and scenes are deliberately ambiguous but I don't think anyone can doubt that she based her whole life around those kids.
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Feb 3, 2015 12:58
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After thinking about it, I don't actually get the functional difference between the two fates. Whether you go to the void or get reincarnated, your consciousness, the thing that makes you you, is erased forever.
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Feb 3, 2015 13:44
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ZeroCount posted:After thinking about it, I don't actually get the functional difference between the two fates. Whether you go to the void or get reincarnated, your consciousness, the thing that makes you you, is erased forever. Its not. Who you are persists after reincarnation. Your life experiences might shape who you are while living, but your soul is ultimately what reacts to these events. A soul that doesn't trust others will lead to a person that doesn't trust others. A soul that wants to cling to happiness at any cost will lead to person that will do the same.
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Feb 3, 2015 13:48
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The fact Decim describes the outcomes as Heaven and Hell implies to me that there is a reward/punishment thing going on with their fates. That they're not just finding which best fits you but which you deserve. It's not like reincarnation is an alien concept to a japanese audience that requires a metaphor. This is a really good water-cooler kind of show, isn't it? Making strong judgements but inviting you to ponder whether they were the right ones or not.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:17
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Kegslayer posted:I'm guessing you don't have children? Kids cry all the time and the kid was already being looked after by older kids. She's had five kids and is an experienced mother. Its hardly abuse or proof that she wasn't looking after her kids. I'm not saying its abuse or proof that she wasn't looking after her kids. I'm saying it was proof that she doesn't care about the children above all else, as the poster I responded to seemed to be implying. Sure, the other kids can take care of him, but they made a point of showing us her not even caring, smiling as she reads a script. Thats not "This mother knows what shes doing". Thats "Look at this person ignore their crying child". Again, she had a lovely life, but she was hardly a saint outside of those lovely situations.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:46
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You can both be a bad parent while also caring about your kids. It's a common paradox that happens all the time. I think my main point is that having a lovely life can lead you to become a lovely person, even if you try to have the best of intentions. Like even after she slammed the dude's face into the cabinet, the first thing she does after she realizes what she's just done is to try to get medical help for him. Obviously she was bad enough to get herself killed, but that darkness was arguably not inherent in her, but has grown over time as life has dealt her bad cards. Basically a nature vs nurture argument. What would be a fun twist is if the assistant shows up at the bar later on, and we get her side of the story. Really curious if it was a build-up over time, or if she was just having the shittiest day in her own terrible life story. Doubt it'll happen, but it would be an interesting spin especially in the results of reincarnation or void.
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Feb 3, 2015 15:15
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It's like the vicious cycle of abuse is a vicious cycle or something!
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Feb 3, 2015 15:43
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Phobophilia posted:And did we see emotional abuse? The worse we saw was her offloading responsibilities to her oldest children while she worked at home. No alcoholism, no drugs, no screaming at the kids, none of those cliches. Active abuse isn't the only type of abuse. And within the story's universe, those alcoholic/druggy abusers would not have been shown to the audience, because they'd be processed by another floor. The word is Neglect. Passive, hard to prove, ambiguously defined, and most prevalent form of child abuse. The show was given mere seconds of flashbacks to convey some degree of neglect, both towards the mom and from her, and I think they showed us memories that could be interpreted either way when combined with the outcome of the game. AnacondaHL fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 15:48
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Tenebrais posted:The fact Decim describes the outcomes as Heaven and Hell implies to me that there is a reward/punishment thing going on with their fates. That they're not just finding which best fits you but which you deserve. It's not like reincarnation is an alien concept to a japanese audience that requires a metaphor. I think if this show was going for "haha that bitch got what she deserved!!" then it would have Decim explaining to people why they are so awful and deserving of punishment rather than having him just comforting them and agreeing that the world is unfair.
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Feb 3, 2015 16:46
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Decim said he had to get their reactions by sabotaging the machine, since he has to see the "darkness of their souls" to judge them. Misaki was ready to kill to get back, while Yousuke only sobbed and regretted rejecting his stepmother. If what they did while alive was all they needed to judge them, there wouldn't be any need for any of this. Their memories only serve as circumstantial evidence for their behaviour while playing the games.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:31
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Lurking Haro posted:Misaki was ready to kill to get back, while Yousuke only sobbed and regretted rejecting his stepmother. This is pretty much the key. If the reverse had happened then Yousuke would be voided and Misaki reincarnated. The judgement isn't on what they are fundamentally so much, since that's not something the arbiters can innately know, it's on what they do in the game. If you act like a poo poo you get voided, if you don't you get reincarnated. At the end of the day it's an inherently arbitrary system.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:57
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The main issue with that argument is basically death billiards which had a similar setup only the attacker got reincarnated. Like even if the old man requested to be voided, that doesn't explain why that lets the other dude get a free pass up.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:06
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I think it's important to keep in mind that when Death Billiards was made, there wasn't any plan to make a full series out of it. It's very likely that the universe has been further developed and changed from how it worked in the original short film. 1:1 comparisons between this and that seem silly to me.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:27
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Allarion posted:The main issue with that argument is basically death billiards which had a similar setup only the attacker got reincarnated. Like even if the old man requested to be voided, that doesn't explain why that lets the other dude get a free pass up. In both cases the final verdict was decided by what they said to Decim. Misaki was ready to do anything to be sent back, even after what she did. The young man in Billiards accepted his death. What the old man said is unknown to us, but clearly decided his fate. glomkettle posted:I think it's important to keep in mind that when Death Billiards was made, there wasn't any plan to make a full series out of it. It's very likely that the universe has been further developed and changed from how it worked in the original short film. 1:1 comparisons between this and that seem silly to me. Also this.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:56
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Tenebrais posted:The fact Decim describes the outcomes as Heaven and Hell implies to me that there is a reward/punishment thing going on with their fates. That they're not just finding which best fits you but which you deserve. It's not like reincarnation is an alien concept to a japanese audience that requires a metaphor. I think the amount of sympathy Decim showed for both candidates implies that Decim doesn't think it's a matter of personal moral judgement. Besides, to a culture with a strong Buddist influence reincarnation isn't necessarily a reward (or at least, not the reward). Of course from what I understand Nirvana isn't typically something that's given to you in Buddhism either. But to be honest I don't have any real evidence to say you're definitely wrong. I'm just going to make my bet that the void isn't intended as a pure punishment in this show, but as the Arbiter deciding that there's something about your soul (for whatever value of soul the show decides to go with) that means you'll cause too much suffering to yourself or others if you reincarnate. Of course, if you're the person getting voided against your will that probably doesn't seem very different from a punishment anyway. Just have to wait and see how the show goes on to present things I guess.
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Feb 3, 2015 20:22
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Allarion posted:You can both be a bad parent while also caring about your kids. It's a common paradox that happens all the time. I think my main point is that having a lovely life can lead you to become a lovely person, even if you try to have the best of intentions. Agreed as this is a important point even in IRL there's situations rarely will the abuser state a malicious intent in the very beginning towards the other person. For example, parenting is a challenge as sometimes kids will disobey despite for no reason other than trying out choices at the time. Although some people say the best way to deal with disobedience is proper understanding and patience it's less OK if your child is screaming in the middle of public dining area. It is possible Misaki did abuse her children but based off what the viewers saw I can't say because it's not available unless we're going to do the pure speculation route. Also, kids do cry *a lot* and I don't need to be parent to confirm this fact as I've had plenty of time to babysit at my relative's homes. We probably won't see the assistant as so far the show seems to be episodic.
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Feb 3, 2015 21:26
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Of course, if you're the person getting voided against your will that probably doesn't seem very different from a punishment anyway. In either situation, the individual ceases to exist. It's just that in once case the soul is allowed back into the cycle so that it can grow into another individual, whereas in the other it's tossed in the bin [so to speak]. It really comes across, at least to me, as more about resource management than reward and punishment.
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Feb 4, 2015 00:38
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Well, that's one mystery solved, with a whole bunch more questions raised. Also looks like the formula's switching up now based on the preview. Would have been interesting to see a reincarnated person go through the games again admittedly, but we got two arbiters fighting each other instead, so that's neat too. Also galactic billiards. 
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Feb 6, 2015 23:59
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Allarion posted:Well, that's one mystery solved, with a whole bunch more questions raised. Also looks like the formula's switching up now based on the preview. Would have been interesting to see a reincarnated person go through the games again admittedly, but we got two arbiters fighting each other instead, so that's neat too. Also galactic billiards. With lightsaber cues
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Feb 7, 2015 00:37
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