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This is futile BUT: It's hard not to get into which tribe's fault this is but I second every poster who asked the thread to stop worrying about it. Like, in the abstract we could agree that it's 60% left-ish people and 40% apolitical-or-right-ish people (not-coincidentally my guesstimate) and get on with it but in reality there will just be endless and bad tribal posting on the topic and this isn't as political a phenomenon as most D&D topics, anyway. It's okay for the leftists to be slightly worse on a couple topics, it happens and it doesn't change the fact that conservatives are worse on the other 98.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:41
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Nameless_Steve posted:Oh, I don't doubt it. Probably the anti-gluten types who proudly don't own a TV nor let their kids eat candy. There are so many different types of moron. Yeah and people can be morons however they want so long as they don't actively harm others. That's the sticking point with vaccination; refusing to vaccinate children puts others at risk. That's why I used the drunk driving comparison and why there are people falling over themselves to treat things like herd immunity like they don't exist. Being against vaccination has all sorts of insane mental gymnastics involved because deep down inside these people probably know full well what they're doing.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:43
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates. Maybe because what they're doing is directly COUNTER to their children's health and well-being? Look, I don't care if you want to name your kid Zqfmgb or Ubiquitous Perpetuity God, or if you don't want him to participate in class field trips, or if you want him to dress like he's going to Farrakhan day camp. Those things affect you and your child only. Sure, you're committing them to a lifetime of swirlies and bullying, but whatever. But vaccines are different. When you "choose" not to give your kid a few shots to protect him from measles/mumps/rubella/polio/whatever you are choosing to potentially expose every person your kid will ever interact with. In a democratic, free society, I am PERFECTLY ok with mandating vaccines, and I sleep fine at night. Unless you want to end up like Mick Dodge and live completely off the grid, you DO NOT get to live in civilized society and not be part of herd immunity without a genuine medical excuse. Do those Freeper-types who are anti-vax even realize that if we went completely down that road we would end up like one of those third-world countries they are constantly railing about? Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 19:52
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. You can 'not buy' all you want but I literally had a couple at a socialist party meeting I went to proudly tell me that their baby is due any day now and they're so happy they got 'woken up' about what's in vaccines and they'll be sure to tell everyone in their parenting groups and all. It's both sides, it hits to the anti-authority libertarian stuff on the right and it hits to the green movement and 'big pharma' types on the left.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:56
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What in the hell is the etymology of this "crunchy" word you people keep using? 
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Feb 3, 2015 19:57
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mdemone posted:What in the hell is the etymology of this "crunchy" word you people keep using? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crunchy
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Feb 3, 2015 20:00
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mdemone posted:What in the hell is the etymology of this "crunchy" word you people keep using? People who eat granola-playing off of the hippie/environmental/fitness stereotype. iirc (and it's been awhile), the original phrasing was "crunchy granola types", meaning people who ate it without milk.
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Feb 3, 2015 20:10
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates. Look, I appreciate your dedication to your craft, even if you need to work on not breaking character when you get a compliment. But if you're going to maintain your barely closeted, hyper-Catholic persona, you might want to read this: http://www.ncbcenter.org/document.doc?id=7 It's a statement from the Pontifical Academy for Life regarding a particular subset of vaccines: those derived in part from aborted fetuses. It makes clear that the official position of the Roman Catholic Church as regards said vaccines is that using them is deemed "very remote mediate material cooperation", and that a proportional reason can indeed be said to exist for those fetal-derived vaccines that lack an otherwise acceptable alternative. In fact, one of the footnotes even calls out the German measles vaccine as potentially being morally obligatory: quote:This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles, because of the danger of Congenital Rubella Syndrome. This could occur, causing grave congenital malformations in the foetus, when a pregnant woman enters into contact, even if it is brief, with children who have not been immunized and are carriers of the virus. In this case, the parents who did not accept the vaccination of their own children become responsible for the malformations in question, and for the subsequent abortion of foetuses, when they have been discovered to be malformed. (In other words, if you could have vaccinated your kids but don't, and that causes a fetus to develop congenital rubella, it's your fault if the mother chooses to have an abortion as a result.) Organizations such as the National Catholic Bioethics Center (whose president sits on the Governing Council of the Pontifical Academy for Life) take a similar stance on the issue: quote:There would seem to be no proper grounds for refusing immunization against dangerous contagious disease, for example, rubella, especially in light of the concern that we should all have for the health of our children, public health, and the common good. This really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who thinks about it for longer than three seconds. The Catholic Church of late has grown a good bit faster in developing nations than developed, and that's a part of the world that understands how incredibly asinine and dangerous the antivaxxer thing really is.
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Feb 3, 2015 21:55
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Radbot posted:Maybe we should examine the root cause of this issue - that people have lost nearly all faith in our institutions. I mean, it's fun to blame idiots for being stupid (and they are very, very stupid), but it's also not very productive and it makes the offenders extremely defensive since it plays directly into their persecution complex. There's other root causes besides that. For example, alternative medicine practitioners, like most scam artists, place a high priority on being likeable, on making the patient comfortable and making them feel like the practitioner is a friend who's looking out for them. Charisma, social skills, showmanship, and general patient experience (such as waiting times) are incredibly important for them. Real doctors practicing actual medicine, on the other hand, tend to prioritize medical knowledge and skills, while social skills and making the patient feel valued are seen as a secondary concern. As a result, people tend to trust their acupuncturist or their yoga teacher more than they trust their doctor. Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. Wakefield's research spawned a bunch of antivaxxing in the UK, although it seems to have mostly died out by now - in 2012, MMR vaccination rates in the UK finally returned to pre-Wakefield levels, finally ending a 14-year dip in the rates caused by his research. And France had a major measles epidemic with tens of thousands of cases only a few short years ago; it, along with the Netherlands (which also had a big outbreak last decade) and the UK, never managed to eliminate measles in the first place. Antivaxxing is definitely a thing in Europe, it just gets more coverage in the US.
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Feb 3, 2015 22:38
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Noted conservative candidate in 2016 Ben Carson says:quote:Republican Ben Carson said on Tuesday vaccinations should be mandatory, with no religious or philosophical exemptions, and schools should check to make sure children have received them. It's interesting to see the divide in Republican candidates, you wonder if Christie isn't going to be hindered by it if the measles outbreak spreads.
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Feb 4, 2015 06:38
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Party Plane Jones posted:Noted conservative candidate in 2016 Ben Carson says: Carson may have kooky ideas about the economy and social issues, but as a M.D vaccinations are as established science as gravity. It's going to be great to watch the GOP eat itself alive as the vaccination issue splits the party. Christie probably honestly thinks the cure is worse then the disease and measles is no big deal.
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Feb 4, 2015 06:44
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pentyne posted:Carson may have kooky ideas about the economy and social issues, but as a M.D vaccinations are as established science as gravity. It's going to be great to watch the GOP eat itself alive as the vaccination issue splits the party. Christie probably honestly thinks the cure is worse then the disease and measles is no big deal. The guy is a Neurosurgeon who buys creationism. You'd have to reject multiple biology theories to accept creationism, but he does.
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Feb 4, 2015 06:47
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CommieGIR posted:The guy is a Neurosurgeon who buys creationism. You'd have to reject multiple biology theories to accept creationism, but he does. This. Carson's positions should, like the positions of other prominent political figures, be seen first and foremost as a calculation about what demographics the policy will draw. This may have negative effects for the next presidential elections- it's going to drive several Republican candidates out of the running, which will let the party develop a more coherent message and supportbase earlier.
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Feb 4, 2015 06:54
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Please stop making the mistake that any of these highly educated, intelligent people actually hold any of the values they profess openly. It's loving marketing.
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Feb 4, 2015 13:41
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CommieGIR posted:The guy is a Neurosurgeon who buys creationism. You'd have to reject multiple biology theories to accept creationism, but he does. Nah, that's something you can compartmentalize. I've met engineers who are young-earth creationists. Even though electronics literally couldn't exist without Maxwell's equations, you can assume that the speed of light is 3.00x108m/s2 while you're simulating an antenna, and then just not think about the consequences for the age of the universe when we can see stars more than 7,000 light years away. A surgeon can believe in germ theory and handwave away resistance to penicillin with "micro- not macro- evolution" or some dumb poo poo and get on with his job.
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Feb 4, 2015 13:45
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VitalSigns posted:Nah, that's something you can compartmentalize. I would say that counts as rejecting multiple theories of biology.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:20
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Just to agree with both of you (but mostly VitalSigns) I mean, in the abstract it's similar in the "rejecting basic biological theories" sense, but in practice you never administer "evolution shots" to kids when they turn two and worldviews can wipe out of frame as you descend down the scale of phenomena all the way to antibodies. A creationist doctor is a bowler who thinks pins magically materialize each frame; an anti-vax doctor is a bowler who thinks you shouldn't knock down pins.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:44
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CommieGIR posted:The guy is a Neurosurgeon who buys creationism. You'd have to reject multiple biology theories to accept creationism, but he does. I'm not so sure on that. In the literal sense of "the world was created in seven days and cave men rode dinosaurs" yes. In the sense that even the most well established biology theories can't answer the question of "yeah, but where did it all *start*?" thus still leaving room for the possibility of divine plan, not so much. I really disagree that a person has to be an atheist to be a scientist.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:51
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ActusRhesus posted:I'm not so sure on that. In the literal sense of "the world was created in seven days and cave men rode dinosaurs" yes. In the sense that even the most well established biology theories can't answer the question of "yeah, but where did it all *start*?" thus still leaving room for the possibility of divine plan, not so much. I really disagree that a person has to be an atheist to be a scientist. They don't have to be an atheist but they can't use their science background to validate their other beliefs. Crazy is crazy.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:58
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Pohl posted:They don't have to be an atheist but they can't use their science background to validate their other beliefs. oh right. I was just speaking generally. Of course there will be nutjobs.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:00
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SedanChair posted:I would say that counts as rejecting multiple theories of biology. Well sure, but it's perfectly possible in an applied field to accept the practical conclusions of a theory while rejecting the theory itself for ideological reasons. A sort of Practical Positivism if you will. He's seen the evidence for vaccines and antibiotics and he knows they work and has been trained in them. He's not a researcher or a theorist so it doesn't really matter if he believes measles infects human cells because of millions of years of concurrent evolution or because God made it for a laugh to get back at those filthy humans for eating from His favorite tree.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:11
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Nameless_Steve posted:Most of the anti-vaxxers I've met have been Fox News-watching, low-information, good-heart-average-intelligence types, accepting uncritically everything they hear from Fox News, chain emails, or their friend of a friend. Now that GOP politicians are going on the record about the "dangers" of vaccines, and even about how the government shouldn't be able to force restaurant workers to wash their hands, this reprehensible poo poo is going to become a legitimate political issue. It's absolutely absurd, but here we are. On my FB the anti-vaxxers I'm seeing are mostly libertarian types. Perhaps it depends on your location? Main Paineframe posted:There's other root causes besides that. For example, alternative medicine practitioners, like most scam artists, place a high priority on being likeable, on making the patient comfortable and making them feel like the practitioner is a friend who's looking out for them. Charisma, social skills, showmanship, and general patient experience (such as waiting times) are incredibly important for them. Real doctors practicing actual medicine, on the other hand, tend to prioritize medical knowledge and skills, while social skills and making the patient feel valued are seen as a secondary concern. As a result, people tend to trust their acupuncturist or their yoga teacher more than they trust their doctor. Yeah, I have an acquaintance that is a chiropractor who posted an anti-vaccination article. My eyes just about rolled completely out of their sockets.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:31
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ActusRhesus posted:oh right. I was just speaking generally. Of course there will be nutjobs. Not really. I went to the bar with a neighbor and his friend last night. They are both from Texas, so maybe that skews their insanity. They both agree that vaccines are good, but think that people should have freedom of choice, and their argument on this was based upon fence height. I wish I was making that poo poo up. I tried to draw them away from individualism and personal freedom, talking about how we all live in a society and how important that society really is. They stated again and again that vaccines are important, but really, the height of their fence was a big loving deal. Dead babies, or not being able to build a fence on their property that blocks migration of native animals? Well, gently caress animals. Dead babies are the fault of the mother for not vaccinating her kid, even though that kid was too young to be vaccinated. Hell yeah, loving freedom. I had to walk away. I had to physically get up and walk away from the bar. One of those guys is in the military and has been trained as a cardiac nurse by the military; the other guy is a lawyer that is focusing on class action law suits. gently caress yeah, freedom. They are both liberal people, they aren't nutjobs. Anything that the government does is bad in their eyes, however. They live in CA and hate it. The only reason they hate it is, it isn't TX.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:52
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Feeding your kids is good, but I think it should be left up to voluntary choice. The government shouldn't come in and tell me how to dispose of my property, ie smaller defenseless human beings.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:57
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VitalSigns posted:Feeding your kids is good, but I think it should be left up to voluntary choice. The government shouldn't come in and tell me how to dispose of my property, ie smaller defenseless human beings. You might not be able to get away with starving your kids but depriving of say, insulin or life saving chemotherapy for an essentially curable leukemia is by and large A-OK.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:17
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VitalSigns posted:Feeding your kids is good, but I think it should be left up to voluntary choice. The government shouldn't come in and tell me how to dispose of my property, ie smaller defenseless human beings. Reminder for anyone thinking this post is a joke: this is an actual libertarian belief
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Feb 4, 2015 17:23
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You can 'not buy' all you want but I literally had a couple at a socialist party meeting I went to proudly tell me that their baby is due any day now and they're so happy they got 'woken up' about what's in vaccines and they'll be sure to tell everyone in their parenting groups and all. It's both sides, it hits to the anti-authority libertarian stuff on the right and it hits to the green movement and 'big pharma' types on the left. Correct. While the rate of anti-vax is higher among conservatives, it isn't that much higher and "independents" have a higher rate too. It is an ideologically diverse movement.  
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Feb 4, 2015 17:36
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Pohl posted:Not really. Ironically they probably voluntarily moved into an HOA neighborhood where fence heights are strictly controlled by a non-government entity Anyway, gonna leave this here: 
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Feb 4, 2015 17:56
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It's really getting to the point where I feel like distributing antivaxxer poo poo should just be a straight-up crime/felony, like Holocaust denial is in Europe.
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Feb 4, 2015 19:38
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Alex Jones staying classy as ever:quote:Jones, who helped Paul get elected to the Senate in 2010, called CNBC's Kelly Evans a "whore" and "pimp" for "signing on to a system of murder, you little piece of trash, tramp, filth, scum woman!"
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Feb 4, 2015 20:18
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It's handy to remember at times like this that Alex Jones has always been a fundamentalist Baptist and everything he's ever said (despite his pleas that he's apolitical) has come from a far-right viewpoint.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:38
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Blarghalt posted:It's handy to remember at times like this that Alex Jones has always been a fundamentalist Baptist and everything he's ever said (despite his pleas that he's apolitical) has come from a far-right viewpoint. It's also Alex Jones, pretty much the reference case for conspiracy crazy. Jones runs infowars, a site that I best remember for having "reporters" crashing FBI press conferences on the Boston Marathon bombing and ranting about whether it was a false flag operation.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:24
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. Several people, myself included, have posted links to well-researched studies showing that anti-vaxx has no idealogical bent. You could literally just google it and get a ton of recent articles on it. Here is a nice summary: http://www.fiercevaccines.com/story/survey-anti-vaccine-views-have-little-correlation-politics/2014-01-29 Technogeek posted:Look, I appreciate your dedication to your craft, even if you need to work on not breaking character when you get a compliment. But if you're going to maintain your barely closeted, hyper-Catholic persona, you might want to read this: http://www.ncbcenter.org/document.doc?id=7 Yeah Kyrie consider this thread the moral equivalent of Jesus throwing the moneylenders out of the temple; you can make an argument from tone all you want but the anti-vaxx side are crazy, dangerous, and factually incorrect about the dangers and benefits of vaccines. Its not OK to get drunk and drive around Its not OK to reject vaccinations, help compromise herd immunity and start an outbreak Society has a duty and an obligation to protect its weakest and most vulnerable; vaccinations let us do that. Freedom is not an absolute good.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:54
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So Monday when a bunch of vax stuff hit I had people many posting on facebook separately and touched the poop: 1) "I am not a vax=autism person but people should be well informed of the hidden dangers of vaccines and honestly maybe you should just breastfeed the child instead of the CDC guidelines which are there to make Big Pharma money" A couple of things going on here but mainly the idea that breastfeeding is a substitute for the vaccination schedule is a common misconception. Orgs that support the US recommended vaccine schedule generally recommend you breastfeed for immune system(among other) reasons as well as getting vaccinated. Not as a substitute. The problem is a misunderstanding of basic immunology...you pass on some immunoglobulins(the heavy lifters, IgG/IgM) during pregnancy through the placenta, but you only get IgA through breasmilk and it tapers off postpartum as the baby starts to produce these on it's own. None of these are specific to an illness or good enough to qualify as an immunity, but rather just help with resistance to an extent. There's already a ton of data indicating that the child's immune system can handle the current schedule even using live virus vaccines. 2) "The CDC whistleblower!" This is the standard climate denial-type non-story where somebody who doesn't understand statistical analysis has been bamboozled by somebody who has manipulated data. It goes deeper than that, but that's the gist. I linked an Science Based Medicine blog post earlier regarding this. 3) "You should send your kid to a Chicken Pox Party rather than get them the vaccination, it's safer and you will be at less risk for shingles" This actually the opposite of the truth, you are more likely to get shingles if you have ever had Chicken Pox, versus never having it and getting the vaccine. They are the same virus, essentially, and the form in the vaccine is less likely to re-emerge as shingles as you get older. There is an adult Shingles Vaccine that you should also get once you reach 60. Also, getting chicken pox doesn't give you permanent immunity, in rare cases you can get chicken pox twice. As always, vaccination is the best option.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:08
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Zeitgueist posted:
Or you can be super awesome like my brother and get chicken pox twice and then shingles twice...before the age of 25. And here I am with some sort of freak immunity to chickenpox, despite having never gotten it. I guess he took the bullet for me, thanks bro!
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Feb 4, 2015 22:23
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The more I think about this, the more non-medical vaccine exemption reminds me of drunk driving in the 60s and 70s. 1. It's a personal choice 2. It was socially tolerated 3. Most of the time, nothing bad happened 4. When something bad does happen, the folks who lose out are usually those who weren't "making the choice". I wonder if the issue of anti-vaxxers could be dealt with in ways similar to how we've dealt with drunk driving. If nothing else but to make it socially unacceptable would be a huge gain.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:25
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Blarghalt posted:It's handy to remember at times like this that Alex Jones has always been a fundamentalist Baptist and everything he's ever said (despite his pleas that he's apolitical) has come from a far-right viewpoint. I can't even find the un-touched clip of this anymore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpkzptvDpDY
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Feb 4, 2015 22:28
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Fionnoula posted:Or you can be super awesome like my brother and get chicken pox twice and then shingles twice...before the age of 25. And here I am with some sort of freak immunity to chickenpox, despite having never gotten it. I guess he took the bullet for me, thanks bro! If man had vaccine gun this would not have happened.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:35
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reagan posted:
Around my neck of the woods (Australia), it's ignorant white trash (bogans), who are often heavy users of illegal drugs and watch daytime television. A anti-vax fanatic I met once told me that the reason for his beliefs was because Oprah said so. Bogans are often welfare dependent, so they are not libertarian at all (apart from resenting the police for busting them in criminal activities).
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Feb 4, 2015 23:34
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Mr. Welfare posted:Around my neck of the woods (Australia), it's ignorant white trash (bogans), who are often heavy users of illegal drugs and watch daytime television. Being welfare-dependent doesn't make you like the government. A lot of the people on welfare I meet in the American South are very anti-government and think that all of the -other- people on welfare don't deserve it.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:40
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