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I think every game should have save-on-quit. I can't think of a single game where this could actually cause problems.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:54
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Alain Post posted:I think they're separate, but somewhat related terms. Putting things like collusion under the umbrella of "emergent play" seems to do damage to the idea of emergent play. How? Maybe you should just not alienate other players enough that they gang up against you? The whole point of the term it's that it's any behavior that comes out of the rules that isn't explicitly intended or planned for. In most games, collusion is not even unintended, it's fully expected it's going to happen, because that's just how people normally are. Only very naive developers don't expect it to happen at all. bbcisdabomb posted:See this is a fight worth having. Quake 2 isn't the best game in the world but it's still fun Quake 2 was a lot more fun on the Nintendo DS (the homebrew port) than it was on the PC.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:55
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Nintendo Kid posted:How? Maybe you should just not alienate other players enough that they gang up against you? So you're basically saying people are being rules-ist and need to check their follows-directions privilege?
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Feb 11, 2015 01:57
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Nintendo Kid posted:How? Maybe you should just not alienate other players enough that they gang up against you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n Linked: Emergent play.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:57
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Alain Post posted:The levels suck rear end compared to Quake and the rocket launcher blows. The railgun is cool I guess. The railgun and shotguns are the only weapons in Quake 2 that don't blow rear end.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:57
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Dewgy posted:So you're basically saying people are being rules-ist and need to check their follows-directions privilege? People already are following the directions. 
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Feb 11, 2015 02:00
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Nintendo Kid posted:People already are following the directions. Since when was IDDQD included in the instructions? I mean that in all honesty, I remember having my mind blown as a kid that there was a not-frontend way of being invincible all the time that also didn't invert the screen colors. (Trainers are strange.)
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Feb 11, 2015 02:02
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Dewgy posted:Since when was IDDQD included in the instructions? iD announced the codes on bbses/the internet after they let people figure them out on their own (i believe it only took a few weeks). It's been 21 years at this point so...
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Feb 11, 2015 02:04
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To attempt to tie this poo poo together, the reason that cheat codes don't fall in the same category as other game mechanics is that if they were, then the game system would be poorly designed, as the "become invulnerable to damage" and "clip through walls" tactics- if they were considered normal tactics- would lead to degenerate play of Doom that ignored a huge amount of the game's mechanics. That's why all this poo poo about degenerate play started.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:04
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Nintendo Kid posted:iD announced the codes on bbses/the internet after they let people figure them out on their own (i believe it only took a few weeks). It's been 21 years at this point so... So by this logic, the Doom source code is also meant to be considered while playing the game?
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Feb 11, 2015 02:05
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Feb 11, 2015 02:07
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Alain Post posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n That is in fact what that event was. Sorry your dumb sport enjoyment was apparently ruined, as the result was hillarious. Alain Post posted:To attempt to tie this poo poo together, the reason that cheat codes don't fall in the same category as other game mechanics is that if they were, then the game system would be poorly designed, as the "become invulnerable to damage" and "clip through walls" tactics- if they were considered normal tactics- would lead to degenerate play of Doom that ignored a huge amount of the game's mechanics. That's why all this poo poo about degenerate play started. Again, you are wrong because you declare it would make the game bad. Stop using that dumb term too. Dewgy posted:So by this logic, the Doom source code is also meant to be considered while playing the game? At this point yes? People found out things like the real way your BFG works. And stuff from it is behind nearly a majority of the level sets out there.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:09
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Nintendo Kid posted:That is in fact what that event was. Sorry your dumb sport enjoyment was apparently ruined, as the result was hillarious. I don't blame the players, because they were smart, and found out how to game the system. What they did, however, is an undesirable result of poorly thought-out rules, and shouldn't be like, cherished becuase all emergent play is precious, or whatever the hell.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:12
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Alain Post posted:The levels suck rear end compared to Quake and the rocket launcher blows. The railgun is cool I guess. Hey now the hub level system was terrible but it was way better than the thematic freakout that is Quake, even if thematic freakouts are pretty much the entire plot of Quake. Big Gun was horseshit though, I'm still pissed they didn't let me fire the gun. The rocket launcher was an awesome area denial weapon. It doesn't anywhere near as fast as the Q1 rockets and that's a good thing. If I want to snipe someone across the level I'll use the sleek armor-piercing hypersonic railgun slug instead of the big heavy shell packed full of high explosives. Nintendo Kid posted:Quake 2 was a lot more fun on the Nintendo DS (the homebrew port) than it was on the PC. I never got around to trying that. I should one of these days.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:15
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Alain Post posted:I don't blame the players, because they were smart, and found out how to game the system. What they did, however, is an undesirable result of poorly thought-out rules, and shouldn't be like, cherished becuase all emergent play is precious, or whatever the hell. No one said that. However they should be cherished because they owned a bunch of FIFA stuffed shirts severely. bbcisdabomb posted:I never got around to trying that. I should one of these days. You'll need a memory expansion pak for the GBA slot to use it (regular Quake runs fine without one, although performs better with expansion ram). You can use either the official Nintendo expansion pak released for the browser, or you can use a device like the EZ Flash V 3-in-1 which does rumble, ram, and holding GBA roms for playing GBA games.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:15
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Nintendo Kid posted:No one said that. However they should be cherished because they owned a bunch of FIFA stuffed shirts severely. That's beyond the scope of game design, though. Furthermore, there are some problematic colonialist conotations to two european powers shutting out an african nation. Very troubling.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:16
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think that's a fair point, but the best way to get around that isn't to allow totally unrestricted quicksaving / loading, but to give the player a suspend save they can use to save their progress and quit at any time. Not to say that you're necessarily arguing this, but I do think the way saves are handled in Doom is straight-up a negative quality of the game; it puts too much faith in the player to make a satisfying experience (as someone else said earlier in the thread, having to play both player and game designer simultaneously is unpleasant, and you can't always expect players - especially frustrated ones - to make good choices regarding game design). The bolded part is absolutely not even remotely true, even when you're discussing otherwise good wads like Valiant. Going Down is certainly reasonable to beat without mid-level saves, but those levels are very short and small, and those limitations really start to make themselves apparent later on in the wad. I agree that Doom doesn't handle saving very well, but I am absolutely a fan of it when trying out the modern wad where every map has 400+ monsters and takes twenty minutes to clear.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:34
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RyokoTK posted:The bolded part is absolutely not even remotely true, even when you're discussing otherwise good wads like Valiant. Going Down is certainly reasonable to beat without mid-level saves, but those levels are very short and small, and those limitations really start to make themselves apparent later on in the wad. Good wads are be designed around doom's death mechanic, which is restarting with a pistol upon dying.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:36
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No true WADsman would make a level that's not feasible to beat with a pistol start
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Feb 11, 2015 02:40
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Linguica posted:No true WADsman would make a level that's not feasible to beat with a pistol start "Not feasible" is open to interpretation and it's very, very difficult to establish what is hard for you, the map-maker, versus someone else as the player. The reason I don't think Valiant is good for no-save runs is because of the presence of strong enemies like suicide zombies which can kill you in one hit with 100 health and 85 blue armor. If I were Skillsaw, I would know where those zombies are and know how to neutralize them effectively, but I'm not so I don't. Sure, I could continuously replay the level until I did know where every suicide zombie is (or I could "get gud" I guess  ) but tossing down a safety save every few minutes is a more agreeable solution for me, personally.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:48
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RyokoTK posted:The bolded part is absolutely not even remotely true, even when you're discussing otherwise good wads like Valiant. Going Down is certainly reasonable to beat without mid-level saves, but those levels are very short and small, and those limitations really start to make themselves apparent later on in the wad. No, I understand what you mean. That's why I specified the IWADs (and also mentioned Back to Saturn X). I know not all WADs are balanced like that.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:40
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RyokoTK posted:"Not feasible" is open to interpretation and it's very, very difficult to establish what is hard for you, the map-maker, versus someone else as the player. The reason I don't think Valiant is good for no-save runs is because of the presence of strong enemies like suicide zombies which can kill you in one hit with 100 health and 85 blue armor. If I were Skillsaw, I would know where those zombies are and know how to neutralize them effectively, but I'm not so I don't. Sure, I could continuously replay the level until I did know where every suicide zombie is (or I could "get gud" I guess On the other hand, watch some of Memfis' or Demonologist's FDAs from the DW thread. Not a lot of deaths. I have come to the conclusion that there are many, many people with something approaching that level of skill at this stage in Doom's life. How do you design levels for those people as well as for the guy who just downloaded Doom and can barely beat the IWads that way? e: This is kind of the problem you get in established roguelikes like DCSS. These are games widely acknowledged as being balls hard; new players complain constantly about bad luck loving them over. And yet there are people who can run streaks of a couple dozen wins, using challenge classes. Somehow you've got to balance your game for both (or not, and risk a chunk of players not playing the content you develop). Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 04:07
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Stuntman posted:If you enjoy Brutal Doom, you should stop playing Doom. According to the Fun-Free Gestapo, if you're enjoying Brutal Doom, you've already stopped playing Doom.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:59
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*enters thread with dual super shotguns, begins blasting wildly*
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Feb 11, 2015 05:05
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I clipped through all those retarded boring posts
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Feb 11, 2015 05:11
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Alain Post posted:The levels suck rear end compared to Quake and the rocket launcher blows. The railgun is cool I guess. Honestly I can never get into playing Quake beyond episode 1 because the rest of the game is loving terrible and not very fun at all. most of the TCs made for it do a better job of making a fun game than Quake itself. I'd rather play Quake 2's interestingly handled smooth gameplay looping and actual boss fights than wandering around detailless corridors of Episode 3 and having like zero boss fights.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:16
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Quake 2 had a really good soundtrack. I have not played the game since I was a young boy so I don't know how actually good the game is, but I remember liking it.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:57
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Quake games didn't have music.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:02
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And this is why you don't respond to Fishmech.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:16
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Brutal Doom is degenerate art.
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Feb 11, 2015 10:01
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Brutal Doom is degenerate art. this but unironically
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Feb 11, 2015 10:06
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I thought Quake 2's use of ambient sounds was pretty solid...it doesn't compare to Half-life's eventually mastery of it but the sound design in that game was pretty great (Although every single time a gunner sees me I can't stop hearing TRES BIAN even though it's probably a garbled version of trespasser)
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Feb 11, 2015 10:16
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quake ii is my favorite musical instrument
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Feb 11, 2015 11:12
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RyokoTK posted:"Not feasible" is open to interpretation and it's very, very difficult to establish what is hard for you, the map-maker, versus someone else as the player. RyokoTK posted:The reason I don't think Valiant is good for no-save runs is because of the presence of strong enemies like suicide zombies which can kill you in one hit with 100 health and 85 blue armor. If I were Skillsaw, I would know where those zombies are and know how to neutralize them effectively, but I'm not so I don't. I'd also like to state my appreciation for the depth and complexity of the secret in map27: You find a teleporter that sends you to lunatic map5 suitably amped up by valiant's bestiary. There's also an appropriate mid-level midi change to the final countdown..
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Feb 11, 2015 12:10
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Apparently a revised version of Prodoomer is in the works. Tweaks, tuning and general improvements, plus a new weapon, a new map, and apparently a universal 'Weapon Altfire' button, which should really help reduce keyboard clutter. Such a messy mod, but it was made with enthusiasm and love. Can't wait to see it polished up a little more.
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Feb 11, 2015 15:08
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I wonder now that Bethesda is doing their own E3 conference they'll show anything of (Brutal) Doom 4, or Machine Game's reboot of Blake Stone/TNO2.
Some dumb idiot fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 20:33
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If they don't show off Doom 4 at this point they'll have to cancel it. At the very least they'll show the rest of the world that quakecon trailer.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:36
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Zaphod42 posted:If they don't show off Doom 4 at this point they'll have to cancel it. They should
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Feb 11, 2015 20:37
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Some dumb idiot posted:Machine Game's reboot of Blake Stone I didn't realize how much I wanted this till now.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:51
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Zaphod42 posted:If they don't show off Doom 4 at this point they'll have to cancel it. Yeah, the hype machine for the new Doom has kinda stalled out. What ever happened to the beta they were talking about if you preordered the new Wolfenstein? I don't think we've reached the Duke Nukem Forever/HL2:E3/HL3 threshold yet though.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:07
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