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MonsieurChoc posted:What!? Supernal skill is Caste only? gently caress, this means I cant have my Night Caste pirate take Sail as Supernal. That is a factual claim you have made there.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:13
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Nessus posted:What legendary hero would ever want to perceive the hidden, avoid harm, show moral fortitude, speak persuasively in foreign languages, give off an aura of command, ride an animal, sail a boat, hide from enemies, brave the wilderness, throw a dagger or wage a war? Everybody knows Odysseus was small time compared to Archimedes. Libluini posted:As someone who knows gently caress all about Exalted, are the Occult-charms the magic related charms, or is magic something entirely different? Most of the Occult tree is a mix of seeing, attacking, and driving away or capturing spirits (demons/gods/ghosts/etc) including immaterial ones, and aiding spirit allies (including letting them materialize for really cheap, so your demon bodyguards can jump your enemies from nowhere). The most "magic" parts of it that don't have to do with spirits being around you are Dark-Minder’s Observances, which gives you thaumaturgies (minor magic rituals), Gloaming Eye Understanding, which lets you copy spirit Charms, and Terrestrial/Celestial/Solar Circle Sorcery, which let you cast spells. Spells generally start already pretty big and get bigger - for example, Death of Obsidian Butterflies can kill dozens of mortals in one go, and Demon of the First Circle lets you bind a demon to your service for a year and a day, and those are both Terrestrial Circle. Up into Celestial and Solar Circle is stuff like Moses parting the Red Sea. That said, almost any Ability can do "magic" effects for a Solar as long as it at least vaguely fits into a "human but better" conceptual focus. For example, Archery can shoot bolts of energy, Bureaucracy can convince somebody to sell themselves into slavery for a slice of pizza, Melee can parry lightning bolts, and Stealth can walk around in the middle of a white room wearing bright red polka dots and not be noticed. Usually, though, innate Solar supernatural stuff is easier to use and smaller-scale than sorcery. Nessus posted:Occult charms seem to usually fall into the headings of "detect magic/spirits," "directly harm spirits who are hiding from your kung fu," and so on. Plus sorcery, obviously. That said, "see spirits/speak Old Realm/copy spirit Charms/manifest spirit allies for cheap" seems like it synergizes really well with demon or elemental summoning, and there's even a Charm to get you your own personal Familiar spirit with traits patterned off of others you've captured or destroyed. Roadie fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 23:19
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MonsieurChoc posted:What!? Supernal skill is Caste only? gently caress, this means I cant have my Night Caste pirate take Sail as Supernal.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:20
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Bouquet posted:Only diplomats can be supreme pirates, obviously. Or accountants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YUiBBltOg4
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Feb 11, 2015 23:26
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Roadie posted:Or accountants.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:30
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Nessus posted:Maybe they didn't include a robust bureaucracy system to avoid this outcome. Hm. If the devs wanted to AVOID this outcome, they're even more incompetent than this thread likes to think.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:34
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Tomn posted:If the devs wanted to AVOID this outcome, they're even more incompetent than this thread likes to think.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:36
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Roadie thanks so much for those. I was working on my own with color coding and stuff like that, but gently caress that noise, I'm using yours. In all fairness to Odysseus he's known more for his sneakiness as opposed to being good at getting boats to do stuff. Still stupid you can't play a pirate with Sail supernal, but I have to say that I do take some enjoyment from caste actually mattering now. Instead of the lame excuses for why this character, who is clearly not an Eclipse caste, should have oath-sanctifying and diplomatic immunity. However, I'm loving furious that I cannot start with Death Ray. gently caress you game. Shaping rituals are great though, I really like the addition even if some of the rituals are not balanced against each other too well.
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Feb 12, 2015 00:58
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Ok, I've finally gotten around to reading the Sorcery section and I love some of the stuff they have going on in here. Mechanics for pacts with demons and dreamlords, control spells for adding customization and signature spells especially.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:04
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Ithle01 posted:Roadie thanks so much for those. I was working on my own with color coding and stuff like that, but gently caress that noise, I'm using yours.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:13
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Nessus posted:I think you can have other skills as Supernal but it sounds like the point of Supernal is you can get up to an Essence 5 Charm without having to actually be Essence 5. So, if there's no Essence 5 Charm, not a ton of point. I don't know, it's also "so you can get to the super neat stuff right of of chargen." Even if the super neat stuff is Essence 4 that's still desireable even if it's slightly LESS desirable than the super neat stuff being Essence 5.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:26
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You could always homebrew an Essence 5 charm.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:27
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How many charms is that relative to 2E? Like, 15 starting charms with 8xp/charm doesn't really seem like nearly enough to me, I guess?
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Feb 12, 2015 01:43
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Roadie posted:Awareness, Dodge, Integrity, Linguistics, Presence, Ride, Sail, Stealth, Survival, Thrown, and War have no actual Essence 5 Charms, much to the embarrassment of anybody who picks them as Supernal.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:51
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NIV3K posted:With E5 you can make 7, 8, and 9s all count as double successes for Linguistics rolls. Not the most flashy E5 effect, but still pretty great. But I still wouldn't pick Linguistics over other abilities for Supernal. I would. If you want to unravel an empire from the inside, Socialize, Bureaucracy and Linguistics are all unmatchable choices. Nothing else comes close.
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Feb 12, 2015 04:24
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Transient People posted:I would. If you want to unravel an empire from the inside, Socialize, Bureaucracy and Linguistics are all unmatchable choices. Nothing else comes close. V for Vendetta: Blessed Isle Edition.
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Feb 12, 2015 04:37
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It's a shame they did all the weird clunky XP stuff with Crafts. If any Skill demanded an awkward, sprawling system of interlocking projects, increasingly mathematically dense charms and weird bookkeeping, you'd think it would be Bureaucracy.
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Feb 12, 2015 05:52
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Roadie, you missed Motive-Discerning Technique's linkage to Intent-Tracing Stare.
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Feb 12, 2015 06:49
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Man, I wish all the Brawl charms which don't explicitly tell you they involve Brawl-based attacks were actually usable on any kind of attack.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:06
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Ferrinus posted:Man, I wish all the Brawl charms which don't explicitly tell you they involve Brawl-based attacks were actually usable on any kind of attack. You can, at least for a bunch of them. Thunderclap Rush Attack is a Reflexive, and thus can be used with any ability. Same thing applies to One Weapon Two Blows in Melee. Lets you make a surprisingly well-rounded warrior by investing in other disciplines.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:21
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Mendrian posted:It's a shame they did all the weird clunky XP stuff with Crafts. If any Skill demanded an awkward, sprawling system of interlocking projects, increasingly mathematically dense charms and weird bookkeeping, you'd think it would be Bureaucracy. They're keeping it for the Sidereals. They're will be a huge minigame about getting the right form in triplicate in order to get approved for every charm. Also keep a written copy of every order your boss gives you. You'll need it for the enxt Celestial Audit.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:59
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Transient People posted:You can, at least for a bunch of them. Thunderclap Rush Attack is a Reflexive, and thus can be used with any ability. Same thing applies to One Weapon Two Blows in Melee. Lets you make a surprisingly well-rounded warrior by investing in other disciplines. Here's the thing: are you sure? I know that "ain't nothin' in the rules..." logic suggests that, technically, you can - and, indeed, that the charm timing rules only say that supplemental charms usually only supplement their parent Ability - but not every charm that just says "attack" is one that makes sense as cross-applicable, and even in Brawl you've got a lot of charms that say "attack" and then some charms which say "attack, even with a different Ability." Since this is a leak, we can't even ask the writers.
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Feb 12, 2015 08:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:They're keeping it for the Sidereals. They're will be a huge minigame about getting the right form in triplicate in order to get approved for every charm. This, except that will be the sidereal mini game for Archery.
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Feb 12, 2015 08:40
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Friend of mine showed me a list of charms by required Ability rating (1/2/3/4/5)quote:Archery: 0-1-3-4-17 Putting aside the absurdity of nearly 760 different charms, and the hilarious disparity between, say, Craft and War, I suppose it's nice to get it written out that yes, you might as well not get a stat in anything you're remotely interested in doing without boosting it to 5 dots with BP in character creation, because otherwise you'll need to spend absurd amounts of experience to get more than a tiny sliver of a charm tree. Like, why even have stat requirements if, in practice, you're presenting a binary choice of "Is/Is Not At 5 Dots"?
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Feb 12, 2015 08:45
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Bouquet posted:Roadie, you missed Motive-Discerning Technique's linkage to Intent-Tracing Stare. Whoops, thanks. Here's a general question: would people prefer these charts to go from top to bottom, or from left to right? Here's an example with Craft: 
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Feb 12, 2015 09:00
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Roadie posted:Here's a general question: would people prefer these charts to go from top to bottom, or from left to right? I think the left to right looks better. (But not enough better that you should feel any obligation to redo stuff you've already done! Top to bottom is still great to have.)
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Feb 12, 2015 09:19
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Ferrinus posted:Here's the thing: are you sure? Am I sure? No, I'm not sure, same as I'm not sure Supernal abilities let you get automatic 'at Essence X' upgrades or that apparently excellencies can only be used on nonmagical actions. But it's reasonable enough, and worth talking to your ST about to see what the decision at the table is, because it's nowhere near clear cut.
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Feb 12, 2015 09:31
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Nessus posted:I think you can have other skills as Supernal but it sounds like the point of Supernal is you can get up to an Essence 5 Charm without having to actually be Essence 5. So, if there's no Essence 5 Charm, not a ton of point. Character creation says Supernal is caste only. I should have been more clear that I meant a Night caste pirate, I mean, obviously you can have Sail Supernal for an eclipse caste. I just want my players to be more honest about their caste beyond "I like oath-sanctifying". It's not just E5 though, it's getting above E1 at character creation because there really aren't that many E1 charms for some of the abilities or you really want an E3 charm right off the bat without having to wait for twenty sessions worth of xp.
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Feb 12, 2015 09:36
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Transient People posted:Am I sure? No, I'm not sure, same as I'm not sure Supernal abilities let you get automatic 'at Essence X' upgrades or that apparently excellencies can only be used on nonmagical actions. But it's reasonable enough, and worth talking to your ST about to see what the decision at the table is, because it's nowhere near clear cut. Those are all easy. Supernal abilities treat your Essence as 5 for the purpose of meeting prerequisites to purchase and upgrade them - they don't treat your Essence as 5 for determining the charm's actual effect, including a built-in passive "at Essence 5..." thing. Excellencies can be used on any rolled action or static value - there's no indication that they conflict with other magic. Combat ability cross-applicability is trickier, because there are straight-up language disparities - sometimes it says "attack" and sometimes it says "ranged attack" and sometimes it says "ranged Archery attack" - but, absent direct developer explanation, I'm pretty sure stuff like Lightning Strikes Twice means the case against is stronger than the case for.
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Feb 12, 2015 09:41
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Daeren posted:Friend of mine showed me a list of charms by required Ability rating (1/2/3/4/5) Also, are there really 39 Sail Charms??
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Feb 12, 2015 10:43
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Ferrinus posted:Those are all easy. Supernal abilities treat your Essence as 5 for the purpose of meeting prerequisites to purchase and upgrade them - they don't treat your Essence as 5 for determining the charm's actual effect, including a built-in passive "at Essence 5..." thing. Excellencies can be used on any rolled action or static value - there's no indication that they conflict with other magic. Heh. Yeah. About that, chief... quote:Supplemental—Supplemental Charms enhance a non-magical action, such as an attack roll, crafting roll, or social influence roll. Supplemental Charms can generally only benefit rolls using the Ability they’re listed under, unless otherwise stated. A character may use as many supplemental Charms as she desires during a round, so long as she is taking valid actions for them to enhance. She cannot, however, activate the same Charm on the same action multiple times to stack its effect—a Solar could not, for example, activate Hungry Tiger Technique five times to enhance the same withering attack, multiplying its damage by five. It's not really that clearcut. Or rather, it's clearly not intended because it fucks the entire system over, but the wording is so vague that it makes supplementals not apply to a lot of rolls they should work with...and Excellencies are Supplementals.
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Feb 12, 2015 10:48
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I haven't dipped into the rules, what exactly does War do now? Please don't tell me Mass Combat came back.
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Feb 12, 2015 10:49
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Nessus posted:Seriously. And are none of them really accessible before Essence 3? Same for Socialize? That seems like some dire goddamn design.
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Feb 12, 2015 11:41
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PurpleXVI posted:And are none of them really accessible before Essence 3? Same for Socialize? That seems like some dire goddamn design.
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Feb 12, 2015 11:43
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NIV3K posted:That list is number of charms by ability requirement, not Essence. Oh, derp, I shouldn't read things when I haven't been awake for more than ten minutes. That makes it considerably less bad than I originally thought. Though it still seems a bit odd that they didn't just... standardize things more, or even try to.
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Feb 12, 2015 12:08
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Transient People posted:It's not really that clearcut. Or rather, it's clearly not intended because it fucks the entire system over, but the wording is so vague that it makes supplementals not apply to a lot of rolls they should work with...and Excellencies are Supplementals. There's no way to read that and come to the conclusion that multiple supplemental charms can't be used on the same action. Even the most wienery and literalistic interpretation could, at best, forbid the use of Excellencies on abstract "resolve whether this charm with an unusual effect works at all" ability rolls, not on, like, a melee attack that's also got Excellent Strike on. The only thing it expressly forbids rather than attempts to generally describe is stacking the same charm's effect on the same action unless the charm suggests you can do otherwise. It actually represents a big oversight in the writing because you can explicitly use an Excellency to enhance one of your DVs and the book appears to suggest that that's not within a supplemental charm's wheelhouse, but the intent is incredibly obvious.
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Feb 12, 2015 14:43
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Daeren posted:nearly 760 different charms  Well. It's a lot of fodder for thinking up neat stunts and megastunts anyway.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:05
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The fact that Craftsman Needs No Tools is an E1C3 no-prereqs charm is kind of weird. On one hand, I guess it's good that even if you're a blacksmith you don't need to drag an entire forge around while your circle explores jungle ruins, but on the other hand it's kind of really far outside the solar idiom - I'd expect a "tools? pfeh, use your bare hands" trick to be a lunar charm or something. Meanwhile, a Solar can do with a satchel full of hammers and some tinder what a normal person does with an entire forge, and can eventually conjure a huge hammer made of her own anima or something.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 15:37
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Hyperactive posted:
This count does not include Martial Arts charms.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:48
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Ferrinus posted:The fact that Craftsman Needs No Tools is an E1C3 no-prereqs charm is kind of weird. On one hand, I guess it's good that even if you're a blacksmith you don't need to drag an entire forge around while your circle explores jungle ruins, but on the other hand it's kind of really far outside the solar idiom - I'd expect a "tools? pfeh, use your bare hands" trick to be a lunar charm or something. Meanwhile, a Solar can do with a satchel full of hammers and some tinder what a normal person does with an entire forge, and can eventually conjure a huge hammer made of her own anima or something. It's obviously well within the Solar idiom - it's right there in the Solar charms. QED.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:02
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