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Venom Snake posted:The US doesn't venerate it's military nearly as much as Israel does, nobody in the US gives a crap if 100 or 1,000 soldiers die. In Israel even a few dying causes a massive uproar. Being sensitive to military deaths is something like the opposite of venerating the military, though. It's treating the military like they're your little babies. I'm not sure how to call it. It's pretty weird. quote:And I bring up the whole "weak and strong" thing because yes it's central to helping build nationalism because Fascism is basically the end goal of extreme nationalism. No, fascism is a specific direction of extreme nationalism, and it really does require hero worship and complete suppression of all types of dissent. Israel's getting there, but it still is more of an ethnic democracy, what with all the institutions still in place. Hell, there's elections in about a month and the identity of who forms the coalition is still unclear; and those who don't are unlikely to be jailed for it. quote:You can't have missed how the IDF loves revealing those little info graphics about how every house in Gaza is some sort of terrorist missile base, but at the same time Hezbollah and other resistance groups our no match for the IDF. I think you're reaching. The whole point of all of these is to excuse heightened military expenditures. It's conditional: they are no match for us, as long as you give us a significant portion of GDP to keep you safe. It becomes especially heated around budget talk time, when somebody threatens to cut the military. The very fact that this is a battle that is fought around each budget season is an argument against fascism already being in place.
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Feb 12, 2015 20:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:It's no apartheid. Okay, so Israel is "manifesting destiny" on the native population, which is totally different from ethnic cleansing for reasons I'm sure you'll insist are there but never state. Even if we assume "you should just convert religiously and you can be a citizen! It's as easy as that!" is actual sincere advice, and we assume that is a completely fair prerequisite for being treated like a human being, is that even legally possible for a Palestinian? How would an orphan in Gaza get in touch with the proper authorities? Would a convert get their "arab" passport replaced with a "Jew" passport? Could a West Bank Palestinian convert to Haredi Judaism and get government funding to build a Jewish house on top of his demolished Muslim house?
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Feb 12, 2015 20:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Being sensitive to military deaths is something like the opposite of venerating the military, though. It's treating the military like they're your little babies. I'm not sure how to call it. It's pretty weird. I'm not sure if you have lived in the U.S. long, but no body here actually cares about the military in any meaningful way. You still have politicians denying PTSD exists here in the year of our lord 2015. And yes Israel does a fine job of suppressing all types of dissent, often times using white phosphorous and the liberal application of artillery.
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Feb 12, 2015 20:39
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Venom Snake posted:I'm not sure if you have lived in the U.S. long, but no body here actually cares about the military in any meaningful way. You still have politicians denying PTSD exists here in the year of our lord 2015. It doesn't matter. If you're a veteran most people will treat you like you're the bee's knees, nobody treats you that way in Israel. (instead, they might sometimes use lack of service against you if they're right wing/patriotic enough). quote:And yes Israel does a fine job of suppressing all types of dissent, often times using white phosphorous and the liberal application of artillery. That's not dissent, that's resistance to occupation. (Or in some cases, living in Gaza, period). Israel qua Israel, inside its internationally recognized borders, with its own citizenry, does allow for a wide range of dissent. Hell, there are communists and Arab nationalists in the Israeli parliament. You'll know it's getting closer to fascism when that is no longer the case (which for all we know could be after this or the next election).
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Feb 12, 2015 20:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It doesn't matter. If you're a veteran most people will treat you like you're the bee's knees, nobody treats you that way in Israel. (instead, they might sometimes use lack of service against you if they're right wing/patriotic enough). A free burger isn't much recompense for being denied health care, treated like garbage by any politician, and on top of that most right wingers hate your guts if you even express a peep that you don't support a coup against Obama. quote:That's not dissent, that's resistance to occupation. (Or in some cases, living in Gaza, period). Israel qua Israel, inside its internationally recognized borders, with its own citizenry, does allow for a wide range of dissent. Hell, there are communists and Arab nationalists in the Israeli parliament. You'll know it's getting closer to fascism when that is no longer the case (which for all we know could be after this or the next election). Yes, Israel isn't a traditional fascist dictatorship by any margin, but it doesn't stop them from being quite happy to ethnically cleanse their land and respond to any resistance by the rats with some good old fashioned collective punishment.
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Feb 12, 2015 20:50
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Venom Snake posted:A free burger isn't much recompense for being denied health care, treated like garbage by any politician, and on top of that most right wingers hate your guts if you even express a peep that you don't support a coup against Obama. It doesn't have to be effective or make any sense to be veneration. In fact, being sensible about dealing with veterans and their concerns would be sound policy, not veneration. You're really shifting the goal-posts here. quote:Yes, Israel isn't a traditional fascist dictatorship by any margin, but it doesn't stop them from being quite happy to ethnically cleanse their land and respond to any resistance by the rats with some good old fashioned collective punishment. Yeah, they're really hosed up. But as Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 21:00
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That was MonsieurChoc, I wish I had thought of it.
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Feb 12, 2015 21:17
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The difference between colonialism and ethnic fascism is that colonialism is about business, not maintaining the master race.
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Feb 12, 2015 21:21
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SedanChair posted:That was MonsieurChoc, I wish I had thought of it.  Allow me to fix that. Venom Snake posted:The difference between colonialism and ethnic fascism is that colonialism is about business, not maintaining the master race. Manifest Destiny is about pretty much exactly what Israel has been and is doing, so I think it's better than fascism as a descriptor. Fascism contains a lot of aspects that the current Israeli regime lacks, as well as lacking many things that the current Israeli regime has.
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Feb 12, 2015 21:45
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US military is a professional army, like the rest of the western world. The members choose to put their life on the line to defend the rest, which gets them free burger levels of hero worship. IDF is military service, it could be you/your children next! The public perception would be massively different from this alone, combining care over a single death (could be your child!) to indifference to veterans (so what, everyone did it too).
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Feb 12, 2015 22:10
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You know perhapse if we had the draft in the USA we could do away with certain people being all gungho about getting back at Iran for 1979.
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Feb 12, 2015 22:19
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Venom Snake posted:A free burger isn't much recompense for being denied health care, treated like garbage by any politician, and on top of that most right wingers hate your guts if you even express a peep that you don't support a coup against Obama. They'll also run smear campaigns against you if you happen to be, in addition to a decorated veteran, a Democrat candidate to the presidential elections.
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Feb 12, 2015 22:25
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Crowsbeak posted:You know perhapse if we had the draft in the USA we could do away with certain people being all gungho about getting back at Iran for 1979. The draft didn't stop the US from going into Vietnam and staying there for a bit.
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Feb 12, 2015 22:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The draft didn't stop the US from going into Vietnam and staying there for a bit. It did, however, largely destroy the US Army as a fighting force for years and regularly cripple US Navy ships due to resistance from within the ranks in the forms of sabotage, the murder of officers and incidents of mass mutiny. Having a draft would definitely negatively effect the ability of the US government to project military force overseas, which is exactly why the military does not want a conscript army ever again.
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Feb 12, 2015 22:49
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This was posted in the Politoon thread but should be here too:Mehuyael posted:Thanks for posting these just now, I needed something that's sorta connected to this picture I took at my workplace yesterday
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Feb 13, 2015 00:13
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Cat Mattress posted:This was posted in the Politoon thread but should be here too: Aluf Hareven, the editor, was co-founder of Sikkuy, an organization promoting coexistence between Jews and Arabs in Israel, so the content may not necessarily be horrible at all.
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Feb 13, 2015 00:31
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Well I could see someone well-intentioned using a loaded title like this for "makes u think" purposes.
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Feb 13, 2015 01:11
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DarkCrawler posted:By genuine democracy and prosperity I was referring to Palestinians (Jews already have that). Most of them wouldn't choose war over having actual rights and a chance to succeed. And Palestinians actually have a chance at economic development when they're not prevented from doing it - they're surprisingly well-educated for once. They have a decent tax base. And international support wouldn't be meager either if the clusterfuck could finally be solved. What if they a) didn't get actual rights after all, b) didn't get any chance to succeed after all, and c) were attacked by armed mobs and terrorist groups on a regular basis? Absorbing the Palestinians into Israel is unlikely to solve any of the Palestinians' actual grievances. They're not going to abandon their homes. They'll go out and suppress the Palestinians with overwhelming military force. Settler mobs and terrorist groups already attack Palestinians near settlements now. Expelling the Palestinians from near Israeli areas by force for "security purposes" isn't unrealistic; the West Bank is already peppered with checkpoints and security infrastructure for blocking Palestinian movements. Venom Snake posted:Yes, Israel isn't a traditional fascist dictatorship by any margin, but it doesn't stop them from being quite happy to ethnically cleanse their land and respond to any resistance by the rats with some good old fashioned collective punishment. Neither of those are unique features of fascism, though. Ethnic cleansing and collective punishment have been around for thousands of years. Venom Snake posted:The difference between colonialism and ethnic fascism is that colonialism is about business, not maintaining the master race. There was definitely a poo poo-ton of racism involved in colonialism. Even if a white country happened to conquer an area from another white country, they didn't set up the territory as a colony - either they'd annex it as part of their nation and grant the residents full citizenship and equality, or it'd become the centerpiece of some absurdly complex treaty involving at least six different countries. Colonization was reserved for non-whites who weren't seen as fit for being anything more than the exploited servants of European settlers.
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Feb 13, 2015 02:06
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UberJew posted:It did, however, largely destroy the US Army as a fighting force for years and regularly cripple US Navy ships due to resistance from within the ranks in the forms of sabotage, the murder of officers and incidents of mass mutiny. Having a draft would definitely negatively effect the ability of the US government to project military force overseas, which is exactly why the military does not want a conscript army ever again. Also it forced men from various walks of life and ethnic identity to have to work together.
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Feb 13, 2015 06:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Also it forced men from various walks of life and ethnic identity to have to work together. Hahaha that never happened. If you were white and well-off, you dodged the draft. If you were poor or black, off to Vietnam you went. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2009/0911.fallows.html
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Feb 13, 2015 09:55
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botany posted:Hahaha that never happened. If you were white and well-off, you dodged the draft. If you were poor or black, off to Vietnam you went. (Not even talking about the contribution of WWI/II to the democratization process in American society) UberJew posted:It did, however, largely destroy the US Army as a fighting force for years and regularly cripple US Navy ships due to resistance from within the ranks in the forms of sabotage, the murder of officers and incidents of mass mutiny. Having a draft would definitely negatively effect the ability of the US government to project military force overseas, which is exactly why the military does not want a conscript army ever again.
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Feb 13, 2015 10:48
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Xander77 posted:Haha poor whites and blacks serving together is exactly the point? Have you considered any ramifications that might arise from those two different groups serving in the same units during the 1960's? The post I quoted talked about the draft forcing "men from various walks of life" to work together, I wanted to point out that the draft predominantly screwed over poor people. Do you disagree with that?
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Feb 13, 2015 11:09
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Haneen Zoabi has been disqualified from running for MK these elections due to 'incitement for armed struggle', which is of course complete bullshit, it is assumed that the high court will overturn this decision and allow her to run after all, still a huge disgrace. http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/news/487-mk-haneen-zoabi-banned-from-elections
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Feb 13, 2015 11:28
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botany posted:The post I quoted talked how "the sky is blue", I wanted to point out that there are clouds sometimes. Do you disagree with that?
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Feb 13, 2015 11:34
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Xander77 posted:If you were making an actual argument, there might have been something to disagree with. I have no idea who poo poo in your coffee today, but "at least the draft was fair" is an actual argument that many Americans believe to this day, and it's worth pointing out that that's bullshit when it comes up.
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Feb 13, 2015 11:39
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Haneen Zoabi has been disqualified from running for MK these elections due to 'incitement for armed struggle', which is of course complete bullshit, it is assumed that the high court will overturn this decision and allow her to run after all, still a huge disgrace. I've heard rumors that this court might not overturn it. Man, this is such a loving cut your nose to spite your face piece of bullshit. Do they realize how much of a luxury it is to have a minority that mostly acts out through MK's saying things Zionists don't like? To paraphrase Arafat, the Palestinian Arabs are holding a gun in one hand, and a ballot in another. Do not let the ballot fall from their hand. Do not let the ballot fall from their hand.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:25
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botany posted:I have no idea who poo poo in your coffee today, but "at least the draft was fair" is an actual argument that many Americans believe to this day, and it's worth pointing out that that's bullshit when it comes up. I'm going to side with Xander and say that it's common knowledge the draft was bullshit, and pointing out that the rich get out of it is like pointing out that they also live in nicer houses and have nicer pants. It's the racial integration aspect that's more significant and that's the one he was pointing out. It'd be interesting to know how racial integration does or would affect the IDF. Do Arabs serve alongside Jews, or are units divided according to race/religion? If the Palestinians were ever incorporated into a one-state solution then integrating the military would probably be one of the most delicate operations of the bunch, since if done poorly it could lead to civil war.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:41
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Dolash posted:I'm going to side with Xander and say that it's common knowledge the draft was bullshit, and pointing out that the rich get out of it is like pointing out that they also live in nicer houses and have nicer pants. It's the racial integration aspect that's more significant and that's the one he was pointing out. IIRC, Israeli Arabs are exempted from the draft, as well as most other minorities in Israel, although they may voluntarily volunteer to serve, and the IDF encourages Bedouin (but not other minorities) to volunteer. Incidentally, this used to double as a backdoor social discrimination policy - until the 90s, welfare and other social benefit payouts were much higher to families who had a member who had served in the IDF according to certain criteria, and since service was mandatory for Jews and very unlikely for Arabs, it allowed the government to provide lower benefits to Arabs without explicitly making it about race. The Druze are not exempted from the draft, but most of them are assigned to the so-called Sword Battalion (formerly known as the "IDF Minorities Unit"), which is also where most Arab volunteers serve. In any one-state solution, it's almost certain that the blanket draft exemption for minorities would be applied to Palestinians, and any who volunteer would be assigned to a separate non-Jewish unit.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:58
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Xander77 posted:That sounds extremely unlikely (as opposed to the notion that no one wants to be involved in the sort of conflict that would require a conscript army). Source? There isn't a source. I can point out that Rumsfeld opposed it during the largest military buildup we've had since the Vietnam War, and the only support you'll find for it are from McChrystal (you know, the guy forced to resign because he was public about his views and they were in opposition to the Obama admin's) and legislators outside the defense community taking shots at the nature of the present military being isolated from general demographic trends. It's not a slam dunk, but I feel confident that it is the case that the military does not in fact want conscripts because they see it as bad for the military.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:21
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Main Paineframe posted:IIRC, Israeli Arabs are exempted from the draft, as well as most other minorities in Israel, although they may voluntarily volunteer to serve, and the IDF encourages Bedouin (but not other minorities) to volunteer. Incidentally, this used to double as a backdoor social discrimination policy - until the 90s, welfare and other social benefit payouts were much higher to families who had a member who had served in the IDF according to certain criteria, and since service was mandatory for Jews and very unlikely for Arabs, it allowed the government to provide lower benefits to Arabs without explicitly making it about race. Israel has segregatedunits? Do you tick a box if you'll only fight alongside fellow Jews ot something?
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Feb 14, 2015 02:20
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Crowsbeak posted:You know perhapse if we had the draft in the USA we could do away with certain people being all gungho about getting back at Iran for 1979. The people being gung ho at Iran were themselves drafted.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:29
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nopantsjack posted:Israel has segregatedunits? Do you tick a box if you'll only fight alongside fellow Jews ot something? They don't really take your wishes as much into consideration when you're drafted. Also, legit whole units of ultra-orthodox Jews will, say, demand that women not sing in front of them and such. That military hosed up.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:30
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computer parts posted:The people being gung ho at Iran were themselves drafted.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:31
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UberJew posted:It did, however, largely destroy the US Army as a fighting force for years and regularly cripple US Navy ships due to resistance from within the ranks in the forms of sabotage, the murder of officers and incidents of mass mutiny. Having a draft would definitely negatively effect the ability of the US government to project military force overseas, which is exactly why the military does not want a conscript army ever again.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhbyRb8fu44
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Feb 14, 2015 20:52
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i say seems a bit silly to go and hang yourself on vague instructions like that, doesn't it
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Feb 14, 2015 21:00
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V. Illych L. posted:i say What, you don't recognize the way Judas killed himself after betraying Christ? What kind of Jew are you? 
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Feb 14, 2015 21:30
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Mmh, yes, Jews are amoral thugs who will happily betray their own race for a few coins, then kill themselves when no more coins are coming. A good cartoon. No, seriously, who thought this was a good idea to make this rubbish? The highlights:
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Feb 15, 2015 00:06
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Cat Mattress posted:Mmh, yes, Jews are amoral thugs who will happily betray their own race for a few coins, then kill themselves when no more coins are coming. A good cartoon. Samaria Settlers Committee.  quote:The highlights: No, you see, all of that is made up by leftists. quote:
You are supposed to hate both of them. The Jew symbolizes those backstabbing leftists who are helping Nazi Europe. quote:
Nope, Jews aren't Europeans. They are only temporarily in Europe. Their real home is Israel. 
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Feb 15, 2015 00:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You are supposed to hate both of them. The Jew symbolizes those backstabbing leftists who are helping Nazi Europe. That clears things up a bit. But they themselves stereotype this jew with all the fury of a skinhead.
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Feb 15, 2015 00:28
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