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My Imaginary GF posted:T This is bullshit and you know it. Stop posting if you're going to post like this.
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Feb 17, 2015 18:27
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But there certainly have been "repress the Jews" policies put in place by Israel. They're just black Jews.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:37
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Xandu posted:This is bullshit and you know it. Stop posting if you're going to post like this. MIGF is tireseome for sure but a lot of Jews believe what he just said to be true, particularly Jews living in Israel but it is my understanding that there are many Jews in the states who feel safer knowing they have a safehaven they can flee to where it is the Jews who fly the F16s, four of those are interviewed in Yoav Shamir's "Defamation", if you consider this to be a dishonest argument cause it comes from MIGF's dishonest mouth that's one thing but it would take a little more to convince people than just decreeing it to be bullshit out of hand. A more right-leaning person might take this opportunity to remind you that German jews in the early 20th century felt that Germany was the safest place for them to be, and thus your own personal views living as a Jew in america and feeling safe are historically not that meaningful.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:39
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Cat Mattress posted:I don't know, what's the statistics on antisemitic attacks inside KSA? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 0. And thus you arrive at the final solution to antisemitism: remove all the Jews. (or was that  ?)
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Feb 17, 2015 20:15
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emanresu tnuocca posted:MIGF is tireseome for sure but a lot of Jews believe what he just said to be true, particularly Jews living in Israel but it is my understanding that there are many Jews in the states who feel safer knowing they have a safehaven they can flee to where it is the Jews who fly the F16s, four of those are interviewed in Yoav Shamir's "Defamation", if you consider this to be a dishonest argument cause it comes from MIGF's dishonest mouth that's one thing but it would take a little more to convince people than just decreeing it to be bullshit out of hand. I get that it's an opinion people have, but I'm not sure it's one that he has. And I feel far safer that no one in America will attack me for being Jewish than I do when travelling in Israel.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:21
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Xandu posted:I get that it's an opinion people have, but I'm not sure it's one that he has. It is an opinion I have. What would have happened to the Beta Israel if Israel did not evacuate them? What would have happened to all the sephardim if Israel did not exist when Arab and North African nations were obtaining independence? I don't see America or Europe as opening up their immigration policies to all Jewish refugees.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:It is an opinion I have. What would have happened to the Beta Israel if Israel did not evacuate them? What would have happened to all the sephardim if Israel did not exist when Arab and North African nations were obtaining independence? I don't see America or Europe as opening up their immigration policies to all Jewish refugees. But that's not what you said. You didn't say that it exists as a place for Jews with nowhere else to turn, you said it's the only place Jews can feel safe.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:32
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Cat Mattress posted:I don't know, what's the statistics on antisemitic attacks inside KSA? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 0. Of course it is. Also, the statistics on Jews allowed to enter/live within KSA: 0. (actually, it's loosened up recently - Saudi officials have said that Jewish Yemenis - that was in fact the phrase used, all ~200 or so remaining of them - were welcome to come work in the country as long as they had never been anywhere near Israel. Of course actually practicing the religion is still forbidden. Baby steps!) Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 20:41
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Xandu posted:But that's not what you said. You didn't say that it exists as a place for Jews with nowhere else to turn, you said it's the only place Jews can feel safe. I had a longer post, which can be summed up by stating that I don't understand the difference you see between those.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:44
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My Imaginary GF posted:I had a longer post, which can be summed up by stating that I don't understand the difference you see between those. You don't see the difference between "X is a safe place for Y" and "X is the only safe place for Y?"
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Feb 17, 2015 20:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:I had a longer post, which can be summed up by stating that I don't understand the difference you see between those. As a Jew in America, I don't need a safe place to turn to. If I were a Jew in Iraq and no country wanted to let me in, then Israel would be the place I could turn to. And that's a valuable role. But the idea that Jews aren't safe elsewhere or living anywhere else puts them at risk for eventual state-sanctioned oppression is problematic.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:53
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Xandu posted:As a Jew in America, I don't need a safe place to turn to. If I were a Jew in Iraq and no country wanted to let me in, then Israel would be the place I could turn to. And that's a valuable role. But the idea that Jews aren't safe elsewhere or living anywhere else puts them at risk for eventual state-sanctioned oppression is problematic. emanresu tnuocca posted:A more right-leaning person might take this opportunity to remind you that German jews in the early 20th century felt that Germany was the safest place for them to be, and thus your own personal views living as a Jew in america and feeling safe are historically not that meaningful. You don't need somewhere you can trust to be eternally friendly to Jewish migrants, until you do. Its not that anywhere else will necessarily persecute Jews eventually, its that Israel never will turn its back on accepting Jews who are persecuted when there is nowhere else to turn. The idea is that the existance of Israel as a Jewish state provides a refuge for Jews when they want and need it, whereas nowhere else can be relied upon to accept large influxes of Jewish migrants without being conditional to the electorate's approval. I'd rather not trust the continued existance of our culture to politicians, and that's why Israel is exists. Again, I don't understand how you see a difference between the two. Didn't your family tell you all their stories of life in the old country, of the relatives you had who never made it out, of their attempts to locate your family post-war and the Soviet pogroms which left their efforts a miasma? That's a risk, however minute it may currently be, which the existance of Israel as a Jewish state negates and protects against.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:MIGF is tireseome for sure but a lot of Jews believe what he just said to be true, particularly Jews living in Israel but it is my understanding that there are many Jews in the states who feel safer knowing they have a safehaven they can flee to where it is the Jews who fly the F16s, four of those are interviewed in Yoav Shamir's "Defamation", if you consider this to be a dishonest argument cause it comes from MIGF's dishonest mouth that's one thing but it would take a little more to convince people than just decreeing it to be bullshit out of hand. If they really believed that, I'm suspecting they'd probably immigrate now. There's over two thousand miles of ocean between America and Israel, and the US already has the infrastructure and systems in place to block people from boarding a plane based on racial profiling. If Hussein Obama suddenly reveals a dastardly plan to pick up where Hitler left off, then it will already be far too late to leave the country. Moreover, there's more Jews in the US than there are in Israel, so it's basically impossible for Israel to accept even a majority of the entire US Jewish population, and any successful mass migration would almost certainly lead to heavy immigration limits. And those who do manage to get in would face heavy state-sponsored discrimination, since most US Jews are of the Conservative or Reform sects, which are not recognized as "real" Judaism by the official state-sanctioned religious authorities. Just about the only Israeli institution that would recognize me as a Jew is the Law of Return - for everything else, I would have to convert to the one state-recognized branch of Judaism.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:You don't need somewhere you can trust to be eternally friendly to Jewish migrants, until you do. Its not that anywhere else will necessarily persecute Jews eventually, its that Israel never will turn its back on accepting Jews who are persecuted when there is nowhere else to turn. Israel practiced state-enforced eugenics on Jews.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:You don't need somewhere you can trust to be eternally friendly to Jewish migrants, until you do. Its not that anywhere else will necessarily persecute Jews eventually, its that Israel never will turn its back on accepting Jews who are persecuted when there is nowhere else to turn. Okay, so, again: why is the Jewish religion/culture/ethnicity the only one that gets its very own eternal sanctuary?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:15
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What makes Israel as a haven for Jews "eternal" anyway? Certain Jews are not even welcome, let alone eternally welcomed.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:21
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Alien Arcana posted:Okay, so, again: why is the Jewish religion/culture/ethnicity the only one that gets its very own eternal sanctuary? It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary? Because we lost it in battle to Flavius Vespianus nearly two millenia ago, duh. There's no such thing as an 'eternal sanctuary', there's just dirt you can or can't hold.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary? Because its not just their homeland and other people have been living there longer the the vast majority of them? Because they got way too late to the game, and the world had collectively decided that colonialism and racial segregation isn't OK? Because they're not actually the only ones? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 21:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary? I see. So, where do the Roma go when they are discriminated against? Or is the list of peoples who deserve their own nation precisely identical to the list of peoples who currently have nations?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:31
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DarkCrawler posted:Because its not just their homeland? Well, this is an extremely contentious issue, isn't it? What makes a nation? What separates one ethnicity from another? What prevents Palestinian integration as Israelis, their refusal to adhere to the standards of Israel or the lack of pathways for assimilation? Alien Arcana posted:I see. So, where do the Roma go when they are discriminated against? Or is the list of peoples who deserve their own nation precisely identical to the list of peoples who currently have nations? They go where they can. Ask a Roma where they go when they're discriminated against, and if they want a homeland with state institutions. Where do Kurds go when other ethnicities in the region conduct campaigns of ethnic cleansing against them? They go to Kurdistan. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 21:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Well, this is an extremely contentious issue, isn't it? What makes a nation? What separates one ethnicity from another? What prevents Palestinian integration as Israelis, their refusal to adhere to the standards of Israel or the lack of pathways for assimilation? The refusal of Jewish Israelis to grant equal rights to other native people of Israel. It's not contentious at all, they have been there just as long by any reasonable metric.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary? Uhhhh Let me just get this straight: everyone else had to go back wherever their ancestors came from once colonized nations started fighting for their independence. Therefore the natives of the colonial nation of Israel should just gently caress off to Jordan or wherever so the colonists can have a place to call their own? Are you literally arguing this?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:34
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I thought Israeli was the eternal Jewish sanctuary. How can non-Jews be anything short of second-class citizens there? Or are you suggesting that the Palestinians should all convert?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:35
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DarkCrawler posted:The refusal of Jewish Israelis to grant equal rights to other native people of Israel. It's not contentious at all, they have been there just as long by any reasonable metric. And do those individuals recognize the supremacy of the Israeli institutions over family as an institution? You cannot provide representation to individuals who wish to destroy your nation and refuse to voluntarily abandon some of their freedoms in exchange for a stronger, more developed state. Alien Arcana posted:Or are you suggesting that the Palestinians should all convert? If Palestinians wish to become Israeli, then they must adhere to the standards of Israeli institutions and Israeli pathways to citizenship.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:They go where they can. Ask a Roma where they go when they're discriminated against, and if they want a homeland with state institutions. So your criterion, then, is that a group should get its own state if they want one? My Imaginary GF posted:If Palestinians wish to become Israeli, then they must adhere to the standards of Israeli institutions and Israeli pathways to citizenship. Is that a yes or a no?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:38
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Alien Arcana posted:So your criterion, then, is that a group should get its own state if they want one? Statehood comes with responsibilities. If Palestinians are willing to accept the responsibility which recognition as a nation-state entails, then they should be recognized as a nation. So far, they have eschewed such responsibility.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:40
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Goddammit I let him draw me in. gently caress it, I'm out.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:41
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If Israel was intended to be a safe haven for Jewish people, why did they place it in the middle of a densely populated Muslim region? Why does the government insist on committing several crimes against humanity against its non-Jewish residents/neighbors, radicalizing them and causing a ton of tension? Why are certain denominations of Judaism significantly less welcome? And why were certain Jews forcefully sterilized as a condition of entry?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:And do those individuals recognize the supremacy of the Israeli institutions over family as an institution? You cannot provide representation to individuals who wish to destroy your nation and refuse to voluntarily abandon some of their freedoms in exchange for a stronger, more developed state. Recognizing the supremacy of an institution that was built on denying them equal rights does not give them equal rights, as we have seen in the case of Arab Israeli citizens. So that institution in its current form needs to be rightfully destroyed and molded in form where every native of Israel has equal rights. Exclusively Jewish nation has no place in this world as long as the territory it claims contains other people who have equal right to it as natives.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:41
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Main Paineframe posted:If they really believed that, I'm suspecting they'd probably immigrate now. There's over two thousand miles of ocean between America and Israel, and the US already has the infrastructure and systems in place to block people from boarding a plane based on racial profiling. If Hussein Obama suddenly reveals a dastardly plan to pick up where Hitler left off, then it will already be far too late to leave the country. Yes and that's what the zionists keep telling them, perhaps they are secretly holding unto the messianic belief that they should only make pilgrimage to Jerusalem once the messiah returns? I can hardly tell you what they sincerely believe or don't, it's not a belief completly lacking of merit considering historical events they might consider very important. With all of my cynical views towards the Israeli pupolation I seriously cannot envision a situation in which Jewish refugees* are barred entry that wouldn't spark rioting, the mythos might not be completly grounded in reality but those who've been indoctrinated with it still hold on to it dearly. Whether its realistic or not for Israel to absorb the entire american jewry is really a very hypothetical question, I don't consider it to be outside the realm of possibility though, it's obviously something many diaspora jews who hold on to this belief of the "israeli safehaven" don't tend to dwell on. *Jews that the majority of Israeli jews consider Jews, I can't see Israeli Jews rioting for the Falash Mura or the Bnei Menashe.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:44
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My Imaginary GF posted:Well, this is an extremely contentious issue, isn't it? What makes a nation? What separates one ethnicity from another? What prevents Palestinian integration as Israelis, their refusal to adhere to the standards of Israel or the lack of pathways for assimilation? Same things that prevented Israeli integration as Palestinians, or Russians, or Americans, or any other nationality you care to name, except with the additional caveat that according to the Israeli government, there's no such thing as an "Israeli" nationality - only "Jew" and "Arab".
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Feb 17, 2015 21:44
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Main Paineframe posted:Same things that prevented Israeli integration as Palestinians, or Russians, or Americans, or any other nationality you care to name, except with the additional caveat that according to the Israeli government, there's no such thing as an "Israeli" nationality - only "Jew" and "Arab". My reading on Israeli politics is that Israelis are not opposed to power-sharing with muslims, christians, druze; they oppose arab power and arab cultural practices trumping the rights of Israeli state institutions.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:My reading on Israeli politics is that Israelis are not opposed to power-sharing with muslims 
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Feb 17, 2015 21:59
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Feb 17, 2015 22:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:My reading on Israeli politics is that Israelis are not opposed to power-sharing with muslims I... I don't think you need to post in this thread ever again. Someone please put this in the OP so we can point it out the next time someone responds to MIGF.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:My reading on Israeli politics is that Israelis are not opposed to power-sharing with muslims, christians, druze; they oppose arab power and arab cultural practices trumping the rights of Israeli state institutions. Shouldn't they share power with Ethiopian Jews first, rather than covertly sterilizing them? Israel is not a safe haven for Jews.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:27
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What I'm getting from MIGF's posts is that we should transplant Chicago to Israel.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:They go where they can. Ask a Roma where they go when they're discriminated against, and if they want a homeland with state institutions. So why are Roma the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary?
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Feb 17, 2015 23:06
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fool_of_sound posted:What I'm getting from MIGF's posts is that we should transplant Chicago to Israel. Israel's bad enough as it is. SedanChair posted:Shouldn't they share power with Ethiopian Jews first, rather than covertly sterilizing them? Israel is not a safe haven for Jews. Enough of this "covert sterilization" bullshit. Some Ethiopian women were allegedly inappropriately pressured by NGO reps into taking certain types of entirely reversible long-term contraceptives in order to have those NGO's get them to Israel. People from the Health Ministry reaffirmed guidelines about making sure people knew about the medication they were taking, but tellingly, Gal Gabay, the reporter who "exposed" this, never did a follow-up. The worst case scenario is medical malfeasance pressuring people into taking a contraceptive, not being sterilized, so even in that case it is patently false to make the claim that you did. So stop lying. Israel does enough actual bad things, you don't need to dissemble about it. If you want to stop sounding like a boring idiot parroting talking points from a few years ago, you may want to know of the many other problems Ethiopian Jews face. I've been waiting for someone to bother translating this story to English, but apparently Ethiopians in an immigration center in the poor peripheral city of Kiryat Gat went on a lock-in a few weeks ago, protesting against lack of services, exorbitant rents and fees, lack of access to appropriate language skills training, feeling like they're in a ghetto, dictatorial handling by the administration, etc. I may bother translating it later, or maybe Xander can, if they so choose. What is very interesting is that while they complain about many things, they don't mention the "sterilization" thing. It's as if that's something that is mostly important to Western leftists in order to tar Israelis as being white supremacist, in order to avoid dealing with them as human beings, because them being monsters is so much easier, rather than being important to Ethiopian migrants themselves. Nobody in the leftist Anglosphere gives enough of an actual poo poo to bother following up on any of it, seeing as they've already gotten their pound of flesh from Israeli treatment of Ethiopian migrants, they can just harp on the same old story. Misleading or false? Who cares. 
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Feb 17, 2015 23:09
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