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SedanChair posted:I suppose I could be persuaded to call it a "forced birth control" program. I mean if you are getting Depo shots without knowing that it is suppressing your fertility, and nobody tells you and continues the shots, the effective result is sterilization, and the only reason they stopped is because they got caught, but okay. Yeah, except it didn't seem to include even the majority of doctors, and in many cases there seemed to be a matter of miscommunication due to language issues, and the whole thing was initiated by an NGO, not the Israeli government. So this isn't a government forced birth control program, it's doctors working for an NGO going too far and misinforming some Ethiopian women as to whether they are getting birth control and whether it's required in order to emigrate to Israel, which, again, is something that this NGO and the Israeli government were paying for. I am really looking forward to an actual honest summary of that issue, and whether anybody above those doctors was involved, but it's basically fallen off the radar, which makes me think this is all that it was about, the fervent wishes of Western anti-Israelis notwithstanding. quote:In other news, how the gently caress do you spend 20K a month to have two houses cleaned?? Give me 10, I will be on the first plane to Israel with a scarf and rubber gloves, Bibi. I think if you become good friends with Sheldon Adelson, he can hook you up. He managed to hook Netanyahu up with the Speaker of the House, after all; nothing is beyond his reach (except for actually getting his favorite presidential candidate to win an election).
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Feb 18, 2015 20:31
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This strikes me as a positive development, w/r/t the Iran talks:quote:[A]ides to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel have charged in recent days that they are being deliberately left in the dark about the details of the talks. The Americans have said that is untrue, but even one of Washington’s closest negotiating partners reports being warned about being too open with the Israelis, “because whatever we say may be used in a selective way.”
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Feb 18, 2015 20:49
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As far as I've understood Israel isn't a party in the talks. So uh, they're owed literally zero details. Probably said before, but drat that's one entitled baby of a nation.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:14
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DarkCrawler posted:As far as I've understood Israel isn't a party in the talks. So uh, they're owed literally zero details. Probably said before, but drat that's one entitled baby of a nation. Israel is the elephant in the room. As in Netanyahu is basically a Republican, and the Republicans are using Israel to sabotage the talks.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:22
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SedanChair posted:I suppose I could be persuaded to call it a "forced birth control" program. I mean if you are getting Depo shots without knowing that it is suppressing your fertility, and nobody tells you and continues the shots, the effective result is sterilization, and the only reason they stopped is because they got caught, but okay. Usually when a country engages in a program to sterilize minorities and/or the poor, they use permanent methods, not temporary birth control shots which have to be renewed every few months. You're right in that the result of "no kids" is the same, but that doesn't make it "sterilization". For one thing, it's not very reliable over the long-term, since it requires a new shot every three to six months and potentially ends as soon as they mention to a doctor that they're trying for kids. There was definitely forced birth control going on, which is a huge breach of medical ethics, but contrary to media reports (which, in the rush to sensationalism, heavily misinterpreted the Israeli government's reaction), there is no evidence that there was a "program" going on. It is a certain, known fact that at least some doctors were administering or prescribing birth control shots without the knowledge or informed voluntary consent of the patients, deliberately or negligently misleading them concerning the purpose or necessity of the shots. It is also a certain, known fact that once they got to Israel, Israeli doctors dutifully continued the treatments without discovering the lack of informed consent However, despite initial media reports which misinterpreted things in the rush to sensationalism, there's no solid evidence that anyone asked, instructed, or ordered those doctors to do that, or that forcible administration of birth control without consent was the official policy of the Israeli Health Ministry, the Jewish Agency, or the American Jewish Development Agency. The sheer numbers involved are high enough that there was almost certainly something more than just the misconduct of one single individual going on here, but on the other hand, they're not so high that they necessitate a government-ordered ethnic cleansing program to explain them. The ongoing effects have been mostly resolved by the Health Ministry's order to Israeli doctors to ensure that they verify that Ethiopian Jews who come in for their Depo-Provera treatments understand that they are receiving birth control, and that the shots are entirely optional; the number of Ethiopian Jews receiving Depo-Provera shots in Israel has dropped by 40% since that order was given. Blame and compensation will have to wait till the court cases or the investigation finish, but who knows how long those will take? It's been two years since the investigation supposedly started and my best Google-fu can't find any progress updates on it.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:15
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computer parts posted:Just under half of all employment is done with businesses with fewer than 50 employees in France and the EU as a whole. The anonymous review is mandatory for enerprises with 50+ employees, but the "information requested must have a direct and necessary relationship with the job" applies to everyone, so a small or micro enterprise that tells you to add your mugshot to your resume is acting illegally (unless they can prove that your face has a direct and necessary relationship with the job, like you're trying to become a model maybe). DarkCrawler posted:As far as I've understood Israel isn't a party in the talks. So uh, they're owed literally zero details. Probably said before, but drat that's one entitled baby of a nation. Same logic as Russia picking a temper tantrum because it wasn't part of the EU-Ukraine negotiations and they felt they had a stake in it.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:23
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Remember back when it turned out Israel was resupplying itself from the US military without even going through the president? The sheer hubris in how Netanyahu treats the US had to catch up with him sometime.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Israel is the elephant in the room. Republicans don't need Israel to sabotage any potential agreement, Obama is doing a well enough job by himself. A bad agreement is worse than no agreement, and Obama doesn't want to press the urgency of this point. It's time to re-assess policy options to respond to the implications of no deal being reached.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:30
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Main Paineframe posted:The ongoing effects have been mostly resolved by the Health Ministry's order to Israeli doctors to ensure that they verify that Ethiopian Jews who come in for their Depo-Provera treatments understand that they are receiving birth control, and that the shots are entirely optional; the number of Ethiopian Jews receiving Depo-Provera shots in Israel has dropped by 40% since that order was given. Keep in mind that this means that 60% of those receiving them chose to continue to do so. quote:Blame and compensation will have to wait till the court cases or the investigation finish, but who knows how long those will take? It's been two years since the investigation supposedly started and my best Google-fu can't find any progress updates on it. If it makes you feel any better, I can't find anything very current about it even in Hebrew. gently caress You And Diebold posted:Remember back when it turned out Israel was resupplying itself from the US military without even going through the president? The sheer hubris in how Netanyahu treats the US had to catch up with him sometime. That wasn't Netanyahu's hubris, that was the nature of long-term military cooperation with the US. It was business as usual because of a presumption that Israel would use that in time of need. After a while, depending on this welfare, they became entitled, and are now too lazy to have a sound way of spending these arms, as they knew they could just get handouts without serious review. I'm surprised nobody's managed to translate this into terms where the Republicans would support putting this kind of irresponsible expenditure under stricter review, rather than whining when Obama takes any steps to do so.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:44
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Thank you, it's good to hear someone say as much since so often posters in this thread hint heavily that they believe the opposite. And blaming Jews for anti-semitism goes ways beyond "problematic". SedanChair posted:Why? Just because he thinks black Jews should be population controlled doesn't mean he thinks the existing ones shouldn't be cared for. People are sickos and compartmentalize. As a white non-Jewish non-Ethiopian American you seem to be spectacularly ill-qualified to tell us definitely what Ethiopian Jewish women in Israel really want. Just sayin'. gently caress You And Diebold posted:Remember back when it turned out Israel was resupplying itself from the US military without even going through the president? The sheer hubris in how Netanyahu treats the US had to catch up with him sometime. Is this one of the I/P thread's "you guys remember when israel faked the moon landings  type things" or do you have an actual non-insane source for your conspiracy theory? Because I recall the administration deciding that it was going to start approving munitions shipments to Israel on an individual basis, not the "sneaky thieving Zionists stole from are troops  "
The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 23:13
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Jews aren't to blame for antisemitism, but Israel's actions now and in the past are not helping.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:29
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Venom Snake posted:Jews aren't to blame for antisemitism, but Israel's actions now and in the past are not helping. If you're going to repeat yourself, so am I: Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm sure it isn't, but just like ISIS isn't helping improve the view of Muslims in the Western world, I wouldn't expect leftists/progressives to be harping on this as a way to downplay Islamophobia's significance.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:34
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Antisemitism is bad, just like islamophobia is bad. And in both situations Israel and ISIS don't help with getting rid of either of those bad things.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:41
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The Insect Court posted:Is this one of the I/P thread's "you guys remember when israel faked the moon landings Holy loving strawman batman, no one ever said anything about theft. They were arranging shipments through the pentagon, but without involving the SoS or president (a pattern?). They changed it so there is now White House oversight over munitions shipments to Israel. And is the Wall Street journal 'non-insane' enough for you?
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Feb 18, 2015 23:45
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Venom Snake posted:Jews aren't to blame for antisemitism, but Israel's actions now and in the past are not helping. Oh, I see. They aren't "to blame" but they are responsible. Just like a rape victim isn't "to blame" for her victimization but that short skirt of hers didn't help, is that it?
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Feb 19, 2015 00:18
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The Insect Court posted:Oh, I see. They aren't "to blame" but they are responsible. Just like a rape victim isn't "to blame" for her victimization but that short skirt of hers didn't help, is that it? Hmm, it's almost like you refuse to ever distinguish between "the Jews" and Israel. Who's to blame for the time "the Jews" dropped white phosphorous on civilians? What should be done to prevent "the Jews" from actively participating in ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity?
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Feb 19, 2015 00:25
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The Insect Court posted:Oh, I see. They aren't "to blame" but they are responsible. Just like a rape victim isn't "to blame" for her victimization but that short skirt of hers didn't help, is that it? They are not responsible, nor are they to blame, because Israel does not represent all Jews as much as it would like to, and Israel is not "responsible" for antisemitism, but it makes it policy to throw unwanted minorities into ghettos and bomb them, which I think you can understand makes people a tad upset. I can understand a person for being antisemitic if their kids were bombed and killed for the crime of being born into the wrong religion, the same way I can understand a person for being islamophobic because they lost a close family member to ISIL. In both cases said belief is bad, but still understandable.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:28
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An important point is that Muslims all over the world overwhelmingly condemn the actions of ISIS and other Islamist terrorists.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:37
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Israel, as a political entity, has done a ton of horrible poo poo, going from it's founding to today. Pointing these out, and wishing they'd stop doing that, does not mean we hate every Israeli and wish they were all dead.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:Israel, as a political entity, has done a ton of horrible poo poo, going from it's founding to today. Pointing these out, and wishing they'd stop doing that, does not mean we hate every Israeli and wish they were all dead. Though I gather Israel would disagree with you on that point, surprisingly.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:41
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OwlFancier posted:Though I gather Israel would disagree with you on that point, surprisingly. I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Is that a reference to the progressively mroe hilarious ways in which the israeli government tries to downplay it's own atrocities?
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Feb 19, 2015 01:39
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Cat Mattress posted:An important point is that Muslims all over the world overwhelmingly condemn the actions of ISIS and other Islamist terrorists. Plenty of Jews all over the world, including several right in this very thread, condemn some or all of Israel's actions as well.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Is that a reference to the progressively mroe hilarious ways in which the israeli government tries to downplay it's own atrocities? I think OwlFancier means that Israel (or, rather, its leadership and many Israelis) considers any criticism of Israeli policy as a sign of antisemitism. Main Paineframe posted:Plenty of Jews all over the world, including several right in this very thread, condemn some or all of Israel's actions as well. To be fair, a disturbing amount of Jews around the world defend Israeli actions to an uncomfortable degree. I think I am somewhat less likely to get any backlash from American Jews about my views due to being Israeli, but I know it can get quite tense and abrasive at times. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 01:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:More curiously, Baruch Marzel, whose disqualification was upheld in the past, can in fact run this time. But he's part of a marginal party and is unlikely to enter anyway. Every poll I've seen has Yachad entering the Knesset with the minimum of 4 seats at least, and Marzel is 4 on the list. Enjoy having a no-poo poo Kahanist in the Knesset! Lum_ fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 02:24
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Wow great point, The Insect Court. Maybe those women wanted to have their fertility suppressed without their knowledge. I mean, maybe they would have wanted it, if anybody had bothered to ask them. Consider my privilege checked.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:41
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Lum_ posted:Every poll I've seen has Yachad entering the Knesset with the minimum of 4 seats at least, and Marzel is 4 on the list. Enjoy having a no-poo poo Kahanist in the Knesset! 4 is at the edge of the threshold (3.33% to 3.25%), so that's neither here nor there. That being said, he wouldn't be the first one recently. Ben Ari was in the 18th Knesset.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:25
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OwlFancier posted:Though I gather Israel would disagree with you on that point, surprisingly. Does criticizing ISIS make me an irredeemable Islamophobe?
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Feb 19, 2015 03:48
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Kajeesus posted:Does criticizing ISIS make me an irredeemable Islamophobe? But those cartoonists were cartooning so provocatively, you see; weren't they asking for it, when it comes right down to it? That's a bit closer to the kind of nonsense we're talking about
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Feb 19, 2015 03:54
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Kajeesus posted:Does criticizing ISIS make me an irredeemable Islamophobe? ISIS would say so!
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Feb 19, 2015 03:55
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But you guys, I planted a tree in Israel half a decade ago and was recently email'd a pic of the growing tree with a bird nestin on it. Why do you want my tree to die by imposing unjust restructions upon Israel? What did my tree ever do to you? Does it not have a right to spread its roots?
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Feb 19, 2015 05:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:But you guys, I planted a tree in Israel half a decade ago and was recently email'd a pic of the growing tree with a bird nestin on it. ... you know, MIGF, you're all right.
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Feb 19, 2015 05:17
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Darth Walrus posted:... you know, MIGF, you're all right. LOL, trees. MIGF, did you know that one of the reasons for the devastating Carmel Mountain fire a few years ago was the trees Kakal had you idiots plant all over there were too close together, and thus there was no buffer to limit the extent of conflagrations? Israel doesn't need your help. Israel suffers from your "help". How about you go get help instead of using Israel as your surrogate power animal?
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Feb 19, 2015 05:36
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Is Bibi's expenses row getting any play in Israel (that is, actually starting to affect polling) or is it being covered disproportionately by my BBC/NPR news diet?
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Feb 19, 2015 07:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Is that a reference to the progressively mroe hilarious ways in which the israeli government tries to downplay it's own atrocities? Absurd Alhazred posted:I think OwlFancier means that Israel (or, rather, its leadership and many Israelis) considers any criticism of Israeli policy as a sign of antisemitism. That, essentially. it's really weird and I'm kind of surprised that it gets any traction given how patently ridiculous it is.
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Feb 19, 2015 09:21
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Hareetz had a really good article on the changes in US/Israeli relations as a result of this campaign by Israel to smear the talks.quote:REUTERS - The White House said on Wednesday that Israeli officials had mischaracterized U.S. negotiations on Iran's nuclear program and criticized what it called "a continued practice of cherry-picking" and leaking information out of context. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.643133
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Feb 19, 2015 09:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:But you guys, I planted a tree in Israel half a decade ago and was recently email'd a pic of the growing tree with a bird nestin on it. If it's a tree planted by a fair-skinned Aryan Jew, then yes. However, if it's a tree planted by an subhuman sandnigger, then it gets the killdozer treatment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHAxZdktb-8 http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?id=644120 http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201405212125-0023753 http://emu.edu/now/news/2014/09/faculty-dismayed-by-israels-bulldozing-of-trees-on-west-bank-farm-owned-by-palestinian-graduates-family/ http://972mag.com/photos-israeli-authorities-destroy-palestinian-familys-valley-of-fruit-trees/91701/ http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685
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Feb 19, 2015 12:53
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Main Paineframe posted:Plenty of Jews all over the world, including several right in this very thread, condemn some or all of Israel's actions as well. Absurd Alhazred posted:I think OwlFancier means that Israel (or, rather, its leadership and many Israelis) considers any criticism of Israeli policy as a sign of antisemitism. Like, while the majority of people condemn ISIS, I'd assume they'd have more Sunni apologists for example, something like that.
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Feb 19, 2015 13:10
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HGH posted:I just wanted to ask about this. Are there any major sects or Jewish groups that condemn Israel? None of them are really major, but: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_(Hasidic_dynasty) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_Anti-Zionist_Network I do think that many secular Jews do condemn Israel/Zionism, but since they aren't an organized group its harder to determine how many there are. I do know that in opposition to Israeli policies is pretty common among younger Jewish people worldwide. Plenty of important Jewish academics condemn Israel as well. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 13:40
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DarkCrawler posted:None of them are really major, but: I don't know about the other groups but Neturei Karta at least don't mind Israel's policy. They object on a religious level as far as I know.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:15
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Miftan posted:I don't know about the other groups but Neturei Karta at least don't mind Israel's policy. They object on a religious level as far as I know. Well, they object on a religious level to Israel's existence in general, so policy disagreements kind of flow from that. Neturei Karta are the source of the ultra-Orthodox rabbis showing up at photo ops for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "the Holocaust never happened/was pretty awesome" rallies back when Iran did that sort of thing. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 16:24
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