I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Elotana posted:

Is Bibi's expenses row getting any play in Israel (that is, actually starting to affect polling) or is it being covered disproportionately by my BBC/NPR news diet?

Now that the State Comptroller has released his report, it seems that Likud are losing ground to Zionist Camp, but it's too early to say. It is getting a lot of exposure in Israeli media.

DarkCrawler posted:

I do think that many secular Jews do condemn Israel/Zionism, but since they aren't an organized group its harder to determine how many there are. I do know that in opposition to Israeli policies is pretty common among younger Jewish people worldwide. Plenty of important Jewish academics condemn Israel as well.

They're not "sects" per se, but there are a lot of left wing and human rights organizations mostly run by secular Jews who do. There's Jewish Voice for Peace in the US, and several Israeli organizations like B'tselem. And of course there's the Jewish members of the Israeli Communist Party and its affiliates, as well as Meretz on a good day.

ETA:

I'm not seeing a lot of coverage of it in English, but this report by Artuz Sheva, a pro-settler media group, had this to say about LGBT activists going to a Jewish Home Event:

quote:

LGBTs Crash Another Jewish Home Event, Violence Erupts

A group of leftist-LGBT activists broke into a Jewish Home elections conference Wednesday, resulting in scuffle with frustrated activists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0PDxFKsfnk

Leftist-LGBT activists burst into a Jewish Home elections conference Wednesday night at the International Convention Center in Haifa and a scuffle subsequently broke out.

During Jewish Home Chairman Naftali Bennett's speech, one of the left-wingers raised the LGBT flag and a fight developed. One of the activists filmed the incident and uploaded it to her Facebook page.

The activists allege that Jewish Home supporters on the scene attacked them once the flag was raised.

Naama Lazimi, one of the activists told Haaretz, that her group had only wanted to ask questions and engage in dialogue with Jewish Home about the gaps in their ideologies.

"As three of our friends were suspended from the event, even before the conference opened, we realized that they would not let us ask questions and we decided to express our message clearly," she explained.

"We did not think they would receive us with open arms, but we never imagined they would be violent against us and curse us. It just goes to show that despite all the slogans like 'we are the home of everyone' and 'open to everyone,' it's really not true."

"We're talking about the most sectoral party in Israel today," Lazimi continued, "The religious-national-Ashkenazi-white-male and condescending sector."

Jewish Home blamed the violence squarely on the activists, saying: "the Left has learned nothing from Rabin's assassination and the incitement that is being carried out in their camp will have serious consequences, as Buji and Tzipi [Labor-Hatnua leaders Yitzhak Herzog and Tzipi Livni] remain silent."

"We call on the leaders of leftist activists to denounce violence before it is too late, and left-wing violence causes irreparable damage."

"Regarding the media that refuses to refer to Jewish Home conferences being overrun by left-wing activists, we have no comment. We have no expectations," the party concluded.

So basically, responding to LGBT activists coming to their conference and getting beat up by right-wingers, Bennett says leftists should have learned the lesson from Rabin's assassination. Sounds like an open threat to me! And yet he seems to position himself as the victim. :psyduck:

I mean, this is a report in a right-wing media outlet, and it still makes the right wing look bad, with all the headline and the attempts at framing. :psyduck:

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 19, 2015

# ? Feb 19, 2015 16:50

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 15:16

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

You've been gone for a long time if you think any of this makes Bennet look bad to Israeli eyes. All They would read is how treacherous lefties needlessly provoked a group of good ol' boys and got their comeuppance.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 17:46

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Bear Retrieval Unit posted:

You've been gone for a long time if you think any of this makes Bennet look bad to Israeli eyes. All They would read is how treacherous lefties needlessly provoked a group of good ol' boys and got their comeuppance.

You're talking like there's one set of "Israeli Eyes". This is definitely getting traction among lefties and LGBT's, we'll see what this does to people in "the center".

# ? Feb 19, 2015 17:51

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

How important are LGBT rights in Israel? Iv had more than a few Israel supporters call me a hypocrite for not supporting Israel which they claim is far better on LGBT rights than any other Mid East nation.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 18:04

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

Absurd Alhazred posted:

You're talking like there's one set of "Israeli Eyes". This is definitely getting traction among lefties and LGBT's, we'll see what this does to people in "the center".

Lefties and and the LGBT community aren't the voters who need to be swayed and the :airquote:

center

couldn't care less about LGBT issues. At best it will convince some people to vote for Bibi or Liberman over Bennet, which matters gently caress all.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 18:05

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Venom Snake posted:

How important are LGBT rights in Israel? Iv had more than a few Israel supporters call me a hypocrite for not supporting Israel which they claim is far better on LGBT rights than any other Mid East nation.

It's a very disingenuous framing of the situation by them, to be honest. Yes, LGBT people have a much better time in Israel than most (even all) other Middle Eastern countries. It's not a crime to be gay, their parental rights are improving with time, there is a form of common-law marriage which does apply to them, etc.

But turn the question back on them: how does Israel bombing Gaza make life better for LGBT people over there? How is Israel blackmailing LGBT people in the West Bank to turn them into informants make their lives there better?

It's a naked appeal to dehumanizing the adversary. And it's hilarious because some of the most pro-Israel people in the US and Europe also wish they could treat LGBT people like in Saudi Arabia.

Bear Retrieval Unit posted:

Lefties and and the LGBT community aren't the voters who need to be swayed and the center couldn't care less about LGBT issues. At best it will convince some people to vote for Bibi or Liberman over Bennet, which matters gently caress all.

It kind of removes a layer of respectability from Jewish Home that Bennett (and the late Uri Orbach) have been at pains to establish. The advantage of Bibi and Lieberman is that they and their constituents are far more pressurable than Bennett's are. A Bennett leadership would choose accelerated ethnic cleansing and genocide over settlement withdrawal if the US withdraws support. With Netanyahu, or even with Lieberman, there's a chance of them acting differently, or joining a "national unity" coalition which may act differently.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 18:27

Lum_: Jun 5, 2006

Venom Snake posted:

How important are LGBT rights in Israel? Iv had more than a few Israel supporters call me a hypocrite for not supporting Israel which they claim is far better on LGBT rights than any other Mid East nation.

Pinkwashing is a thing.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 18:54

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Venom Snake posted:

How important are LGBT rights in Israel? Iv had more than a few Israel supporters call me a hypocrite for not supporting Israel which they claim is far better on LGBT rights than any other Mid East nation.

I wouldn't say "far" better. Israel is probably the best on LGBT rights of any Middle Eastern country, but the gap is much smaller than people like to imply. Israel is one of the half-dozen or so countries in the Middle East that don't outright criminalize homosexuality, and Israel also bans employment discrimination against homosexuals (but allows other types of discrimination against them)...but that's about it. Israel does not allow gay marriage, and while the Israeli Supreme Court seems mostly on the side of gay rights, that means each and every individual right or grievance has to go through a long and expensive court battle before being approved, because there's still a lot of opposition to homosexuality among both the Knesset and the overall population. The political split is pretty much what you'd expect from the US - secular and leftist parties are pro-gay, religious and right-wing parties are anti-gay - except that Israel has a lot more insane extremist fundies than the US has. The Haredi are pretty much uniformly opposed to any kind of tolerance of homosexuality, and as for the Knesset...well, one Shas lawmaker suggested a few years back that "a cost-effective way of averting earthquake damage would be to stop passing legislation on how to encourage homosexual activity in the State of Israel, which anyways causes earthquakes", and Jewish Home is almost as bad.

Now, the Palestinians are also a lot better on LGBT rights than people tend to imply. Homosexuality was legal in the West Bank 37 years before it was legal in Israel. However, no Palestinian governing body has passed any specific law about homosexuality - the PA chose to inherit the Palestinian territories' pre-1967 laws, so the West Bank inherited Jordan's 1951 legalization of homosexuality and Gaza inherited the British Mandate's 1936 criminalization of homosexuality. Discrimination against LGBT people does seem to be a lot worse in the Palestinian territories (even in the West Bank), but even the potential 10-year prison sentence homosexuality can be punished with in Gaza doesn't compare to Saudi Arabia, where being found guilty of homosexuality can lead to a life sentence, castration, torture, or execution.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 20:08

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Haaretz published an opinion piece about the MLI controversy:

quote:

Controversy has been swirling over a program run by the Jerusalem-based Shalom Hartman Institute called the Muslim Leadership Initiative (MLI). And when controversy turns polarized, I often find there�s a good chance to recover some lost nuance.

The MLI is a 13-month long study experience for Muslim Americans, involving distance learning and two 12-day seminars in Jerusalem. The Hartman Institute describes the program as a two-way dialogue, inviting �North American Muslims to explore how Jews understand Judaism, Israel, and Jewish peoplehood�[and] encourag [ing] participants to experience how Palestinians, both inside and outside Israel, identify themselves, while exploring the issues of ethics, faith, and practice.� It promises �a rigorous academic curriculum and exposure to diverse narratives.�

In a widely circulated essay last summer, one participant demonstrated how these narratives were indeed exchanged in a meaningful way.

Yet there has been much criticism of the program.

There is the general issue of �respecting the boycott� of Israeli organizations and institutions. And there are other, more specific attacks � like those put forth by the Muslim Arc (Anti-Racism Collaborative) and which are detailed in an Electronic Intifada article. But the more general criticism, which I think is most worth addressing here because it cuts to the heart of what it means to engage with the Other, is the accusation outlined by Jewish Voice for Peace in its recent missive. JVP attacks the MLI program for using �interfaith relations as an excuse to justify the Israeli occupation.�

So the major question is this: do programs like the MLI have the potential to help, or do they underscore ongoing injustices in the Israeli-Palestinian sphere?

The most ardent critics of Israel claim that in engaging with the �enemy,� the occupation is being unjustly �normalized.� This anti-normalization logic rests on the assumption that a �slave cannot actually engage in dialogue with its master.� Aside from the fact that Muslim Americans are not themselves Palestinians living under occupation, we need to consider this fact, if only for the optics.

On one hand, Israel is the one driving the engine of occupation, building the settlements which encroach on the hopes for geographical integrity in a future Palestinian state, and instituting draconian residence requirements for East Jerusalem Palestinians. And with the backing of the world�s superpower, Israel holds the lion�s share of military power.

On the other hand, we must not ignore the complexities of power in the region. There is the issue of Palestinian representation vis-a-vis their own people: general elections are over half a decade overdue. There is the issue of lethal Hamas rockets being fired at Israeli civilians from Gaza, and the terror attacks by other Palestinians against Israeli civilians. And there is the ongoing problem of misfires and mutual intransigence around the negotiating table.

If any Jewish think tank is going to host this sort of dialogue and study experience, the Hartman Institute � by no means a preach-tank � is arguably an appropriate place. It�s been known to host an array of critical voices among its teaching faculty, including those who fight tirelessly for Palestinian human rights and those who have publicly sought to problematize some of the holy grails of Zionism like the Law of Return (disclosure: I too have taught at one of their New York seminars).

When we spoke by phone, the Hartman Institute�s North America president, Yehuda Kurtzer, emphasized that unlike in conventional interfaith dialogues, where participants often feel the need to represent their �side� in a polarized fashion, the MLI seminars are academic in nature, with all the individual critical thinking that that normally entails.

Yet for all of its spirit of open-minded inquiry, the Hartman Institute could do better in publicly disavowing the occupation � something that, while it openly seeks to promote a two-state solution, it doesn�t explicitly do because it�s not a political advocacy organization, Kurtzer explained.

Indeed, critics may find some of their leaders� statements much more equivocal than they�d like. Take this 2012 blog post by the Institute�s President Donniel Hartman: �The occupation of another people�,� Hartman wrote, �is a violation of Jewish principles and international moral discourse.� Yet in the same essay, he suggested that �An occupation is just, to the extent that it is the result of a just war and that everything is done to bring it to a conclusion, while taking into account one�s legitimate security needs, [and that]�this principle gives Israel a passing grade legally and morally.�

The ultimate question is this: is it helpful to bring Muslim Americans to Israel to debate, dialogue, study and generally engage with narratives that may bristle against their own? I would argue that yes, it is. Because in so doing, these individuals are not only learning about the importance of Israel to Israelis, something that can�t be denied if one wishes to find a just � and mutually agreed-upon � solution. They are also sharing their own individuality, their own private and collective dreams, and their own sense of identity with those who hold most � though certainly not all � of the keys to change.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 20:15

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Venom Snake posted:

How important are LGBT rights in Israel? Iv had more than a few Israel supporters call me a hypocrite for not supporting Israel which they claim is far better on LGBT rights than any other Mid East nation.

Go watch "Out in the Dark." :v:

# ? Feb 19, 2015 20:48

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Main Paineframe posted:

Now, the Palestinians are also a lot better on LGBT rights than people tend to imply. Homosexuality was legal in the West Bank 37 years before it was legal in Israel. However, no Palestinian governing body has passed any specific law about homosexuality - the PA chose to inherit the Palestinian territories' pre-1967 laws, so the West Bank inherited Jordan's 1951 legalization of homosexuality and Gaza inherited the British Mandate's 1936 criminalization of homosexuality. Discrimination against LGBT people does seem to be a lot worse in the Palestinian territories (even in the West Bank), but even the potential 10-year prison sentence homosexuality can be punished with in Gaza doesn't compare to Saudi Arabia, where being found guilty of homosexuality can lead to a life sentence, castration, torture, or execution.

Exactly. In Gaza gay people can expect castration, torture, and execution as an extra-judicial punishment inflicted with legal impunity and social support rather than a de jure punishment. Totally different from the Saudis.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 22:55

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

The Insect Court posted:

Exactly. In Gaza gay people can expect castration, torture, and execution as an extra-judicial punishment inflicted with legal impunity and social support rather than a de jure punishment. Totally different from the Saudis.

Link?

# ? Feb 19, 2015 22:59

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Link?

Uh, seriously? I assume you know better but you're trying to make some kind of point? How about this for a start.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 23:13

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

The Insect Court posted:

Uh, seriously? I assume you know better but you're trying to make some kind of point? How about this for a start.

Yeah, seriously. If you're going to make these accusations, it would be nice if you could provide links, because frankly most people probably gloss over your posts and assume you're full of poo poo. You need to know your audience. Those who know you are already primed against you, those who don't would be primed against you due to your red-text.

Now, for those who have you on ignore, that source seems to bear you out, even about the allegedly more "liberal" PA . Although I did find this interesting:

quote:

Meanwhile, Israel prohibits these people from even filing asylum applications, simply because of their nationality. The United Nations has intervened in a few cases to promote resettlement of gay Palestinian men to third countries, but the UN refugee office in Jerusalem has generally cooperated with Israel in excluding Palestinians from the asylum system.

Why would Israel help out when they could easily abuse the situation to use gay Palestinians as informants? Shame on the UN refugee office playing along, too.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 23:22

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Yeah, seriously. If you're going to make these accusations, it would be nice if you could provide links, because frankly most people probably gloss over your posts and assume you're full of poo poo. You need to know your audience. Those who know you are already primed against you, those who don't would be primed against you due to your red-text.

Now, for those who have you on ignore, that source seems to bear you out, even about the allegedly more "liberal" PA . Although I did find this interesting:

Why would Israel help out when they could easily abuse the situation to use gay Palestinians as informants? Shame on the UN refugee office playing along, too.

Solution to gay Palestinians receiving a better offer from Israel to work for them? Palestinian institutions force Palestinians to accept LGBT issues as legitimate.

I haven't read anything about movement towards that occuring other than meaningless proclamations being made without impact on the ground.

# ? Feb 19, 2015 23:33

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The Insect Court posted:

Exactly. In Gaza gay people can expect castration, torture, and execution as an extra-judicial punishment inflicted with legal impunity and social support rather than a de jure punishment. Totally different from the Saudis.

My Imaginary GF posted:

Solution to gay Palestinians receiving a better offer from Israel to work for them? Palestinian institutions force Palestinians to accept LGBT issues as legitimate.

I haven't read anything about movement towards that occuring other than meaningless proclamations being made without impact on the ground.

Israeli institutions force Arabs and all non-Jews to accept themselves as inferior regardless of sexual orientation. Totally different from South Africa or Jim Crow.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Feb 20, 2015

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:10

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

DarkCrawler posted:

Israeli institutions force Arabs and all non-Jews to accept themselves as inferior regardless of sexual orientation. Totally different from South Africa or Jim Crow.

Whats this, being black is a choice? I had no idea!

Palestinians refuse to assimilate to Israeli standards, yet desire to be treated as Israelis. It doesn't make logical sense to me.

I really think the Palestinians must come to terms with Israeli institutional dominance before Jeb wins in '16. If they don't, I guarantee you, America isn't coming to help during Jeb's first term. If anything, Bibi will be seen as our most important ally in peace and the key to bipartisan support for DoD's expanded budget.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:19

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

My Imaginary GF posted:

Whats this, being black is a choice? I had no idea!

Palestinians refuse to assimilate to Israeli standards, yet desire to be treated as Israelis. It doesn't make logical sense to me.

I really think the Palestinians must come to terms with Israeli institutional dominance before Jeb wins in '16. If they don't, I guarantee you, America isn't coming to help during Jeb's first term. If anything, Bibi will be seen as our most important ally in peace and the key to bipartisan support for DoD's expanded budget.

It is impossible for Palestinians or Israeli Arabs to assimilate to Israeli standards because that standard is Being a Jew. Do you think black people can assimilate on being white people? Do you think South Africa or South would have let them?

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:22

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Yeah, seriously. If you're going to make these accusations, it would be nice if you could provide links, because frankly most people probably gloss over your posts and assume you're full of poo poo. You need to know your audience. Those who know you are already primed against you, those who don't would be primed against you due to your red-text.

Now, for those who have you on ignore, that source seems to bear you out, even about the allegedly more "liberal" PA . Although I did find this interesting:

Wow. If you're angry about having to confront objective realities you'd prefer to hide your head in the sand from, don't get angry at me for bringing them up. Maybe you can try some self-affirmations or something rather than going all :reddit:

. Besides, it's not as if I'm claiming that Israel has a great record on LGBT rights, just that the useful idiot types who are willing to sacrifice the basic human dignity of LGBT Palestinians(and, for that matter, LGBT people in much of the rest of the Middle East) as long as the people lynching gays are also shouting 'Death to Israel' should stop pretending and start owning up to the choice they're making.

All I want is a little honesty, is that too much :shrug:

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:27

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

DarkCrawler posted:

It is impossible for Palestinians or Israeli Arabs to assimilate to Israeli standards because that standard is Being a Jew. Do you think black people can assimilate on being white people? Do you think South Africa or South would have let them?

You can convert to Judaism. It's a long, arduous project, though, and most Rabbis would reject you point blank if it was for the explicit purpose of becoming a citizens. I mean, they do have some accelerated programs for Jews-for-Law-of-Return-but-not-for-Halacha folks in the military, but those are controversial. Anyway, you'd end up being a Jew with a thick, notable Arab accent, and that's going to land you in trouble however you look at it.

Another classy blithely ignorant policy suggestion from MIGF. MIGF: Lean Into the Pizza, Ignore the Politics.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:29

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The Insect Court posted:

Wow. If you're angry about having to confront objective realities you'd prefer to hide your head in the sand from, don't get angry at me for bringing them up. Maybe you can try some self-affirmations or something rather than going all . Besides, it's not as if I'm claiming that Israel has a great record on LGBT rights, just that the useful idiot types who are willing to sacrifice the basic human dignity of LGBT Palestinians(and, for that matter, LGBT people in much of the rest of the Middle East) as long as the people lynching gays are also shouting 'Death to Israel' should stop pretending and start owning up to the choice they're making.

All I want is a little honesty, is that too much ?

So, you're honest about the Jewish State being a lovely horrible country? Because I haven't seen that, really.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

You can convert to Judaism. It's a long, arduous project, though, and most Rabbis would reject you point blank if it was for the explicit purpose of becoming a citizens. I mean, they do have some accelerated programs for Jews-for-Law-of-Return-but-not-for-Halacha folks in the military, but those are controversial. Anyway, you'd end up being a Jew with a thick, notable Arab accent, and that's going to land you in trouble however you look at it.

Another classy blithely ignorant policy suggestion from MIGF. MIGF: Lean Into the Pizza, Ignore the Politics.

You can convert, but Israel has in past banned single criminal/suspicious born Jews as well as groups not considered Jewish enough from entering the country. I don't think they would react any better if 11+million Palestinians said they would want to convert to Judaism and demand equal eights and voting power. Besides, the Law of Return is pretty clear about who gains automatic citizenship, and converts do not meet said requirements.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 20, 2015

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:30

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

The Insect Court posted:

Wow. If you're angry about having to confront objective realities you'd prefer to hide your head in the sand from, don't get angry at me for bringing them up.

The gently caress are you talking about? I want this thread to be good, for that to happen, even people who have views I see as lovely, like you, should be upping their game citing sources naming names. Then maybe I can use, say, that very report you brought up in another conversation about Palestinian gay right and say "yeah, it's pretty lovely, I've got the evidence here, let's stop arguing over this part of the bullshit and ask the real question: how does the Israeli occupation make this better if it didn't for the 26 years before Oslo?

quote:

Maybe you can try some self-affirmations or something rather than going all

Oh, gee, I'm sorry I'm actually asking people to contribute here instead of making GBS threads up this thread so it goes the way most I/P threads go in these forums. I also rail on SedanChair and such and basically drove Tezzor out of here, I'm an equal opportunity "stop shitposting in this thread" ranter.

quote:

Besides, it's not as if I'm claiming that Israel has a great record on LGBT rights, just that the useful idiot types who are willing to sacrifice the basic human dignity of LGBT Palestinians(and, for that matter, LGBT people in much of the rest of the Middle East) as long as the people lynching gays are also shouting 'Death to Israel' should stop pretending and start owning up to the choice they're making.

It's actually very easy and there's no reason to be a useful idiot. One way to fight useful idiocy is to, when you're bringing things like this up, cite sources immediately instead of waiting for an rear end in a top hat like me to confront you.

quote:

All I want is a little honesty, is that too much ?

All I want is for people to not come here every 5-10 pages, poo poo out a poorly-sourced criticism, then vanish again without actually intelligently engaging with what's going on and contributing. There's an election going on, there's our PM intervening in US foreign and domestic policy, plenty of substantive issues to discuss, you're welcome to actually add something decent instead of contributing to shitpostopia.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:35

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

DarkCrawler posted:

Israel has in past banned single criminal/suspicious Jews as well as groups not considered Jewish enough from entering the country.

What specifically are you referring to? Lansky wasn't allowed in, but Flatto-Sharon, who literally went to Israel and ran for Knesset in order to (successfully) use parliamentary immunity to avoid prosecution in France was let in.

quote:

I don't think they would react any better if 11+million Palestinians said they would want to convert to Judaism and demand equal eights and voting power. Besides, the Law of Return is pretty clear about who gains automatic citizenship, and converts do not meet said requirements.

Actually converts do. If you convert to Judaism abroad you are eligible. If you convert to non-Orthodox Judaism while in Israel then you aren't eligible. If you convert to Orthodox Judaism you're A-Okay as far as they're all concerned.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:37

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Huh. I thought the Law of Return was pretty clear on requiring your mother to be Jewish. Maybe I had some of that stuff mixed with the Rabbinate. Still, I think mass conversions are mostly unheard of.

And I was talking about Lansky, and other criminals not let into the country, as well as some ethnic/religious groups who consider themselves Jews but who aren't considered as such by Israel. I guess it might be in some cases be more about being descendants of ancient Israelites then following Judaism to the letter.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:47

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

DarkCrawler posted:

Huh. I thought the Law of Return was pretty clear on requiring your mother to be Jewish. Maybe I had some of that stuff mixed with the Rabbinate. Still, I think mass conversions are mostly unheard of.

Nope. Orthodox Judaism says that regardless of what you believe, you are a Jew if your mother is considered a Jew. You can be a Jew for any number of other reasons, including conversion or being adopted into a religious family early enough.

Strangely enough, if you're a Jew but then convert to Christianity, Orthodox Judaism still considers you a Jew (an apostate, but you can still come back to your senses without needing to reconvert), but you are no longer eligible for Law of Return. On the other hand, you are eligible if your grandfather is Jewish, even if you yourself are not consider Jewish according to Orthodox Judaism. It's very inconsistent in that regard. :shrug:

quote:

And I was talking about Lansky, and other criminals not let into the country, as well as some ethnic/religious groups who consider themselves Jews but who aren't considered as such by Israel. I guess it might be in some cases be more about being descendants of ancient Israelites then following Judaism to the letter.

That would be irrelevant if somehow millions of Palestinians underwent mass conversion into Orthodox or even Reform Judaism. But even the latter doesn't do that as far as I know. It's on a case-by-case basis.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 00:54

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

DarkCrawler posted:

Huh. I thought the Law of Return was pretty clear on requiring your mother to be Jewish. Maybe I had some of that stuff mixed with the Rabbinate. Still, I think mass conversions are mostly unheard of.

And I was talking about Lansky, and other criminals not let into the country, as well as some ethnic/religious groups who consider themselves Jews but who aren't considered as such by Israel. I guess it might be in some cases be more about being descendants of ancient Israelites then following Judaism to the letter.

Nope. The Law of Return applies to any child or grandchild of a Jew (even if it's the child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother), as well as the spouse of any child or grandchild of a Jew, as well as any and all converts, even to non-Orthodox sects. It's quite a bit more liberal in its definition of a Jew than the Rabbinate is, leading to situations where someone can be Jewish enough to immigrate to Israel but not Jewish enough to marry once they're there.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 01:27

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

I just got back from an event on Israeli policy in the year ahead and drat was it good. I didn't do my due diligence beforehand, so was rather surprised when the Rabbi introduced none other than loving Amy Ayalon, former head of the Shin Bet and war hero.

Though I quibbled with a minor point here or there, the overall presentation was unbelievably refreshing and deserves far greater broadcasting in the American news media, particularly given Ayalon's undeniable credentials. He described his perception that Israel finds itself at a crossroads between a democratic and pluralistic state and, though he didn't use the word, a belligerent Apartheid state. He assigns fault to the narratives on both the Israeli and Palestinian side, but focuses on that of Israelis as it is the one he feels he can change.

Ayalon grew up in a kibbutz in the Jordan Valley, taking in the narrative that he later came to describe as "proprietary" Zionism-a Zionist mentality that defines the entire territory it considers "Israel" as an inalienable possession of the Jewish people that must be fought for. He sees this mentality as a driving force behind the settlements as, after all, one cannot steal what one already considers belongs to them. When he actually interacted with Palestinians, this narrative was forced to change.

At the end, he came out strongly for the need to differentiate between a just and unjust war, categorizing the persistent campaigns to colonize the West Bank and repress the Palestinians as unequivocally unjust.

If this explanation were put to the American public, we'd see a major sea change.

Meanwhile, Bedouin land in East Jerusalem has been expropriated by the city's Israeli administration to be used as a landfill...

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Feb 20, 2015

# ? Feb 20, 2015 05:03

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

DarkCrawler posted:

So, you're honest about the Jewish State being a lovely horrible country? Because I haven't seen that, really.

I've obviously been critical of the flaws of the "Jewish State"( :confused:

word choice?), but I just don't think that those flaws are cause to rhetorically place Israelis outside the circle of humanity as you seem to almost think they are. I don't think Israeli Jews or "Zionists" more broadly are evil subhuman monsters. I realize that to someone who does believe something along those lines my more mainstream criticism of Israeli policy may seem insufficiently strident.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 13:02

bpower: Feb 19, 2011

The Insect Court posted:

I've obviously been critical of the flaws of the "Jewish State"( word choice?), but I just don't think that those flaws are cause to rhetorically place Israelis outside the circle of humanity as you seem to almost think they are. I don't think Israeli Jews or "Zionists" more broadly are evil subhuman monsters. I realize that to someone who does believe something along those lines my more mainstream criticism of Israeli policy may seem insufficiently strident.

Easily the most consistently accurate red text.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 13:35

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The Insect Court posted:

I've obviously been critical of the flaws of the "Jewish State"( word choice?), but I just don't think that those flaws are cause to rhetorically place Israelis outside the circle of humanity as you seem to almost think they are. I don't think Israeli Jews or "Zionists" more broadly are evil subhuman monsters. I realize that to someone who does believe something along those lines my more mainstream criticism of Israeli policy may seem insufficiently strident.

You pretty obviously haven't been, beyond claiming that you have. And no, I don't think they're subhuman monsters. Anyone who supports apartheid is pretty demonstrably an evil person though, which obviously isn't something outside the circle of humanity.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 13:49

Zelder: Jan 4, 2012

Do you really, really think anything of value will be gained from engaging with The Insect Court? Come on, man. This is day one stuff.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 14:13

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

The Insect Court posted:

I've obviously been critical of the flaws of the "Jewish State"( word choice?)

Jewish State in Judea and Samaria (JSJS).

# ? Feb 20, 2015 14:50

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Cat Mattress posted:

Jewish State in Judea and Samaria (JSJS).

And relinquish the rest of Canaan?

JSIP could work but that acknowledges that Palestine is a thing. JSIL works though, two banks to the river, this one ours that one as well.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 15:02

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

DarkCrawler posted:

Huh. I thought the Law of Return was pretty clear on requiring your mother to be Jewish. Maybe I had some of that stuff mixed with the Rabbinate. Still, I think mass conversions are mostly unheard of.

And I was talking about Lansky, and other criminals not let into the country, as well as some ethnic/religious groups who consider themselves Jews but who aren't considered as such by Israel. I guess it might be in some cases be more about being descendants of ancient Israelites then following Judaism to the letter.

I know a guy who wanted to fight for the IDF, but he didn't have an ounce of Jewish blood or culture in him. He just went to a local religious leader and basically fed him a story about being devoted to Judaism and moving to Israel, so he got some kind of paper signed and that was pretty much it. I get the impression that all the talk about being a Jew in this way or that way is a little overestimated.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 15:03

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

emanresu tnuocca posted:

And relinquish the rest of Canaan?

JSIP could work but that acknowledges that Palestine is a thing. JSIL works though, two banks to the river, this one ours that one as well.

JSIS 2024

# ? Feb 20, 2015 15:05

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Svartvit posted:

I know a guy who wanted to fight for the IDF, but he didn't have an ounce of Jewish blood or culture in him. He just went to a local religious leader and basically fed him a story about being devoted to Judaism and moving to Israel, so he got some kind of paper signed and that was pretty much it. I get the impression that all the talk about being a Jew in this way or that way is a little overestimated.

I know this fella who was doing IT work in the Kiev Jewish community center, he was doing something in some Rabbi's office and he said the words "You know, my grandmother had a Jewish name", two weeks later he was on the plane to Israel. In his defense he was looking to dodge the Ukrainian army draft anyway.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 15:08

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

emanresu tnuocca posted:

I know this fella who was doing IT work in the Kiev Jewish community center, he was doing something in some Rabbi's office and he said the words "You know, my grandmother had a Jewish name", two weeks later he was on the plane to Israel. In his defense he was looking to dodge the Ukrainian army draft anyway.

This post is pure Russian catnip.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 15:13

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

I know this fella who was doing IT work in the Kiev Jewish community center, he was doing something in some Rabbi's office and he said the words "You know, my grandmother had a Jewish name", two weeks later he was on the plane to Israel. In his defense he was looking to dodge the Ukrainian army draft anyway.

Not much changed in 40 years.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 16:37

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Svartvit posted:

I know a guy who wanted to fight for the IDF, but he didn't have an ounce of Jewish blood or culture in him. He just went to a local religious leader and basically fed him a story about being devoted to Judaism and moving to Israel, so he got some kind of paper signed and that was pretty much it. I get the impression that all the talk about being a Jew in this way or that way is a little overestimated.

It varies. The Law of Return is far broader than any definition of "Jew" used internally - the Chief Rabbinate does not consider those people Jews and they would not be able to marry in Israel or engage in other activities dependent upon the approval of religious authorities, but the Law of Return will take pretty much anybody unless they're Arabic. The reasons for this are largely based in secular political considerations, which is why the conditions for Jewishness under the Law of Return are so much looser than the ones used in Israel. Once you're under the jurisdiction of the Rabbinate (which has essentially no say in Law of Return decisions), it's a whole different ballgame.

# ? Feb 20, 2015 18:08

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 15:16

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

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quote:

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# ? Feb 20, 2015 18:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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