I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Ciprian Maricon posted:

It's not really that obvious dude and there has been a good bit of discussion on whether the term "anti-Americanism" refers to a wide range of criticisms of the United States in multiple areas (say the way the French would use it) or a systematic opposition to America as a whole (the way say, Osama bin Laden might have)

Quite clearly it's used as a catch-all for both, which was my point.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 14:19

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:40

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Volkerball posted:

An interview with Iran's foreign minister.

Pretty funny to read this minutes after I watched a video of Shia forces parading around with some heads.

You see why folks cannot trust Iranian rhetoric on "peaceful" purposes for their nuclear program? Surely you, of all people, understand Volkerball.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 14:20

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

I don't think their "purpose" even comes into the equation tbh. Iran is nowhere near capable of building a bomb, and if they attempted to, US and Israeli intelligence would be watching every step of the way, fully prepared to take action. That's why I think the whole debate is just a smokescreen for a debate about how we should approach diplomatic relations with Iran. But as far as just blanket trusting the regimes word for it, of course I don't.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 14:29

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

My Imaginary GF posted:

You see why folks cannot trust Iranian rhetoric on "peaceful" purposes for their nuclear program? Surely you, of all people, understand Volkerball.

If only there was a way to move forward with normalizing diplomatic relations and keep an eye on Iran's nuclear program...

# ? Mar 5, 2015 14:37

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Avshalom posted:

The total lack of self-awareness and reflection that people display on this forum when talking about Israel, and Jews in general, astounds me.

Same, only it's the myopic views of Jewish folks who seem to think that when you're a member of one of several ethnic groups intertwined with a religion (of various denominations though) and 90%+ of your population is either in the US, protector of Israel or Israel, the country best known for committing regular warcrimes and for some reason being in Eurovision (Real question: Which do you root for now Australia is in? WHERE DO YOUR LOYALTIES LIE???), the first thing most people wonder about is, you know, their views vis-�-vis the whole ethnic state intent on slowly and badly loving over their neighbours.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but when you're a small ethnic group people tend to either not know you exist or only know stereotypes. This is poo poo, but it is what it is, and it's probs work on that by, you know, trying to get across the real deal, if you're cool and all, rather than other, more drastic measures. Coming from a nation of arrogant, loud, drunkards who commit financial crimes galore when they aren't being violent or feminst, apparently, I can relate a tiny bit, but thinking it is comparable to stereotyping a quarter of the human population, is uhh, not the most convincing point.

I do agree though, that saying Judaism = Israel is idiotic. Too bad this is a point that Israel holds up and present very strongly in the international arena and are rather successful at it.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

That's great, dickbag, only 99% of the time when someone describes himself as against americanism it's obvious that the mean american global influences where when they describe themselves as anti-America it's obvious that they're probably a supporter of al-qaeda.

Lol if you hate America for being murdering shitheads you, of course, support murdering dickheads of a different sort. Is your idea of anti-Americanism culled from RT comments?

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:01

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Disinterested posted:

And when Bibi proclaims Israel the only spokesperson for the Jewish people he is somewhat inviting people to conflate Israel and Jewishness, not that that's an excuse.

If it's not an excuse, don't bring it up. ISIS says it speaks for all true Muslims, Westboro Baptist say they speak for all true Christians, Aryan Nations say the speak for all Whites, etc. Other than to point at his hubris or to show how factually incorrect he is (none of the recent polls even suggest he has a good mandate over Israel itself, just that he could barely form a coalition to govern it if he played his cards right), I don't see a reason to even humor the notion that he and his policies stand for all Jews.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:16

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Back to election talk, Ya'alon, the former security minister and general rear end in a top hat, blurted out in an interview that a coalition with Herzog is not ruled out. Bennett responded by saying that people need to vote for him to make sure the left is not in the coalition.

Likud now clarified its position against sitting with Zionist Camp in a coalition government.

That means absolutely jack and poo poo, though, but that's how they're positioning themselves right now.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:34

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Duckbag posted:

it's hard to have fondness for people who call you "Satan" and chant for your death

Hey, speak for yourself. I think it's adorable the way they hate the West so much just because of two or three little invasions, a coup, and our support of their biggest rival in a bloody war initiated by that rival that lasted for years and involved the use of chemical weapons against Iran. :colbert:

Everything about Iran becomes much, much easier to understand if you have even a passing knowledge of the last century and a half of their history.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Identifying as anti-Israel simply means you think Israel shouldn't exist, if you think that everyone around the world is intimately familiar with the history of the conflict to the point where the understand you implicitly mean "anti-certain-Israeli-policies, all for freedom and ethnic equality really" you better pay closer attention to the way most of the people who identify as 'anti-Israel' consider this topic.

Thinking a country shouldn't exist is not the same as thinking the people shouldn't exist. Being anti-country is clearly targeted at the state, not the people, and the only people who think those are irretrievably linked are racists and nationalists. No one (except hyperbolic partisans) has ever accused people who are anti-Iran of desiring the total enslavement or extermination of the Iranian people - their opposition to "Iran" is against the current Iranian government, not the people. Similarly, I don't think Iranians desire the genocide of all Americans; they are anti-America, but despite the strong terms they use, their opposition is to the US government and based in reasonable policy considerations. You're falling into Bibi's favorite trap - to conflate the government of Israel with the Jewish people, and reframe any criticism of or opposition to the state as if it were against all Jews everywhere.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:54

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Absurd Alhazred posted:

If it's not an excuse, don't bring it up. ISIS says it speaks for all true Muslims, Westboro Baptist say they speak for all true Christians, Aryan Nations say the speak for all Whites, etc. Other than to point at his hubris or to show how factually incorrect he is (none of the recent polls even suggest he has a good mandate over Israel itself, just that he could barely form a coalition to govern it if he played his cards right), I don't see a reason to even humor the notion that he and his policies stand for all Jews.

That's a stupid thing to say. It isn't an excuse - it is nonetheless why some people fall into the trap of conflating the two.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:57

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Avshalom posted:

The total lack of self-awareness and reflection that people display on this forum when talking about Israel, and Jews in general, astounds me. I've had people say to me when they find out I'm Jewish, "Oh, as long as you don't support Israel though" or even "As long as you're not orthodox though" and it just boggles my mind. They would never say to a Muslim goon, "Well as long as you don't support the monarchalist system of Saudi Arabia by visiting Mecca!" or "As long as you don't wear the hijab, I'm okay with you" and I know that they're probably patting themselves on the back behind the keyboard for sticking it to the big bad Israel, when in fact they're sticking it to a left-leaning religious minority in Australia who's never been to Israel and doesn't support their current actions at all... but it's okay because I'm just part of the big faceless mass of Jews.

I say "on this forum" because the rest of the internet doesn't even try to pretend that it doesn't hate Jewish people, but SA posters like to think they're more politically progressive than that. It would never even occur to them that automatically conflating my religion and identity with the murder of Palestinians because I'm a Jew, and Judaism is Israel and Israel is Bad, is exactly the sort of generalisation and bigotry that they denounce when it's pointed at other religions.

I reckon wearing the hijab is a little different from supporting an apartheid state or practicing a misogynist form of religious observance.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 16:59

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Main Paineframe posted:

Hey, speak for yourself. I think it's adorable the way they hate the West so much just because of two or three little invasions, a coup, and our support of their biggest rival in a bloody war initiated by that rival that lasted for years and involved the use of chemical weapons against Iran. Everything about Iran becomes much, much easier to understand if you have even a passing knowledge of the last century and a half of their history.

Thinking a country shouldn't exist is not the same as thinking the people shouldn't exist. Being anti-country is clearly targeted at the state, not the people, and the only people who think those are irretrievably linked are racists and nationalists. No one (except hyperbolic partisans) has ever accused people who are anti-Iran of desiring the total enslavement or extermination of the Iranian people - their opposition to "Iran" is against the current Iranian government, not the people. Similarly, I don't think Iranians desire the genocide of all Americans; they are anti-America, but despite the strong terms they use, their opposition is to the US government and based in reasonable policy considerations. You're falling into Bibi's favorite trap - to conflate the government of Israel with the Jewish people, and reframe any criticism of or opposition to the state as if it were against all Jews everywhere.

Especially problematic given the fact that opposition to the existence of the state of Israel was originally only a Jewish view, in the early days of Zionism, and there is still a Jewish minority who thinks the State of Israel is illegitimate or was at the very least a bad idea.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 17:15

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Disinterested posted:

That's a stupid thing to say. It isn't an excuse - it is nonetheless why some people fall into the trap of conflating the two.

What would you call people who make the other conflations I brought up? I think you'd call them New Atheists and mock the gently caress out of them for having no nuance.

SedanChair posted:

I reckon wearing the hijab is a little different from supporting an apartheid state or practicing a misogynist form of religious observance.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 17:27

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

What would you call people who make the other conflations I brought up? I think you'd call them New Atheists and mock the gently caress out of them for having no nuance.

A hijab is just a headscarf, something a poo poo-ton of non-muslim women do, you moron.

A burka now, now that's mysogynistic as gently caress.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 17:32

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Uncover your heads, women! Let me get a look at you :mrapig:

# ? Mar 5, 2015 17:35

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

MonsieurChoc posted:

A hijab is just a headscarf, something a poo poo-ton of non-muslim women do, you moron.

A burka now, now that's mysogynistic as gently caress.

Who are you to suggest that women should be barred from expressing themselves through covering most of their bodies rather than just their hair? :rolleyes:

You do realize people in Iran (and in parts of Jerusalem) get attacked for not wearing it, right? In that sense it is a possible indication of that.

SedanChair posted:

Uncover your heads, women! Let me get a look at you

Cover yourselves entirely, women! That is the only way to defend yourselves from the male gaze.

The real answer is women should wear what they loving want, and to go to your original stupid comparison, assuming a Jew is pro-Israel and pro-killing-Palestinians is unacceptable bullshit that indicates to me a willingness to find license for antisemitism, period.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 17:46

dorkasaurus_rex: Jun 10, 2005; gawrsh do you think any women will be there

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Israeli elections are not about candidates but about lists. His party still is getting at most on par with Zionist Camp, but that doesn't matter because you get to be Prime Minister not if your party gets the most votes, but if you are able to form a majority in the Knesset.

The prospects currently look grim for a coalition not headed by Netanyahu. If we take the average of all polls, which gives:

Zionist Camp, 23
Likud, 22
United Arab List, 13
Yesh Atid, 12
Jewish Home, 11
Kulanu, 8
United Torah Judaism, 6
Shas, 6
Meretz, 5
Yisrael Beitenu, 5
Yahad, 4

Netanyahu could build a right-wing coalition with Likud, Jewish Home, United Torah Judaism, Kulanu, Shas, Yisrael Beitenu, and Yahad (total 62), although he won't like it, as that puts him at the left-most edge vis-a-vis I/P, and he would rather be in the center.

Another options is a National Unity government with Herzog and Netanyahu rotating leadership, like in the 1980's. (Although considering that Herzog is supposed to rotate with Livni with Zionist Camp, it may mean Netanyahu for 2 years, Herzog 1, and Livni 1 )

That gives them 45 seats. The missing 16 for a majority can be taken either from Yesh Atid and Kulanu (the debate between them seemed to indicate that their disagreements are superficial) for a total of 65, or United Torah Judaism, Shas and Meretz somehow agree to join (Meretz would be a tough sell as they ran on not joining a government with Bibi in charge; maybe they'll compromise by only being in coalition when Bibi is not PM) for a total of 62.

Another possibility is that Netanyahu lets his ego slide and accepts the Foreign Affairs or Finance portfolio in a coalition government. But I think Likud being in the coalition subservient to Zionist Camp would be anathema to its base with such a close call on seat numbers.

For a somewhat center-left coalition you might be able to have Zionist Camp, Yesh Atid, Kulanu, United Torah Judaism, Shas, and Meretz, for a total of exactly 60. Maybe Hadash joins after the post-election breakup of the Arab parties. But it's going to be a really tough sell unless they basically say that the purpose of this coalition is to take the next two years, do absolutely nothing on the economic front (as Yesh Atid would be a spoiler about that incessantly), and focus on ending the Occupation.

But if you did that, perhaps it would be possible to have all of the United List on, in which case you would have Zionist Camp, United Arab List, Kulanu, United Torah Judaism, Shas, and Meretz, with a total of 61. That has a lot of religious conservatism, but would be mostly economically liberal and either neutral or in favor of ending the Occupation. Furthermore, Yesh Atid would probably provide outside support for any steps to end the Occupation from the opposition, providing a bit of a margin of legitimacy that just 61 seats would lack.

Post-election is going to be a mess, is what I'm saying, unless something really dramatic happens. Which it totally can: polls have alternately put Meretz, Yisrael Beitenu, and Yachad on the margins of the election threshold, meaning they could lose all of their seats and those could be split around. Also, Livni's people could opportunistically jump out of Zionist Camp into a coalition with Netanyahu changing that calculus, and the various Arab parties may do entirely different things after the elections, although none of them have ever served in a coalition and seem opposed to that notion unless there is serious I/P work in the future of that coalition.

Thank you for this post. I already knew that the party leaders themselves don't matter so much, but it's good to know that the real politicking and horse trading will happen after the election. Is there anywhere you'd recommend I go for further reading on the likely government composition, election results, and the implications thereof?

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:02

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Disinterested posted:

That's a stupid thing to say. It isn't an excuse - it is nonetheless why some people fall into the trap of conflating the two.

It's hard for some to grasp the distinction between "explanation" and "justification".

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:04

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Absurd Alhazred posted:

The real answer is women should wear what they loving want, and to go to your original stupid comparison, assuming a Jew is pro-Israel and pro-killing-Palestinians is unacceptable bullshit that indicates to me a willingness to find license for antisemitism, period.

It's definitely prejudiced, but is it anti-semitic? It's an interesting question. On the one hand, I would say without hesitation that Americans who assume that all Muslims are pro-ISIS unless they say otherwise, or demand that American Muslims explicitly disassociate with ISIS, are definitely anti-Muslim. On the other hand, don't ISIS themselves claim to speak for all Islam? Is it anti-Muslim for them to claim that? Is it anti-Muslim to assume that a Muslim in a country that is actively supporting ISIS and has a high rate of popular support for ISIS is likely to support ISIS? I'm inclined to answer "no" to both questions, which suggests that the hard absolute line you're trying to draw doesn't exist, and that context matters.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:12

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

The real answer is women should wear what they loving want, and to go to your original stupid comparison, assuming a Jew is pro-Israel and pro-killing-Palestinians is unacceptable bullshit that indicates to me a willingness to find license for antisemitism, period.

As an American I think it would be just fine for people to say to me "Oh! Well as long as you're not a climate-change denying fundamentalist" or "as long as you don't support war." If the State of Israel insists on continuing to conflate Judaism with their particular strain of racist nationalism, people will keep getting confused and saying things that can be interpreted as anti-Semitic.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:14

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

Absurd Alhazred posted:

The real answer is women should wear what they loving want, and to go to your original stupid comparison, assuming a Jew is pro-Israel and pro-killing-Palestinians is unacceptable bullshit that indicates to me a willingness to find license for antisemitism, period.

Who even does this? Statistically speaking, most Jewish people think settlements and such are unhelpful, want a two-state solution, and don't want war with Iran. They're often less pro-Israel than some Christians.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:32

Zelder: Jan 4, 2012

I thought we agreed to drop "you're an anti Semite! (I'm pretty sure I have no proof but I'm pretty sure)" from our rhetorical war chests at the same time we agreed to drop "You're a hasbara shill! (I'm pretty sure I have no proof but I'm pretty sure)"?

Or was that last thread?

# ? Mar 5, 2015 18:52

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Who are you to suggest that women should be barred from expressing themselves through covering most of their bodies rather than just their hair?

You do realize people in Iran (and in parts of Jerusalem) get attacked for not wearing it, right? In that sense it is a possible indication of that.

Cover yourselves entirely, women! That is the only way to defend yourselves from the male gaze.

The real answer is women should wear what they loving want, and to go to your original stupid comparison, assuming a Jew is pro-Israel and pro-killing-Palestinians is unacceptable bullshit that indicates to me a willingness to find license for antisemitism, period.

You are a moron! Good to know.

People being forced to wear specific clothings by crazy fundamentalists: bad. Women being harassed because they chose to wear the Hidjab in western countries: bad too.

Also, people hiding behind antisemitism to defend Israel: bad. Anti-semitism: still bad! The fact that you can't understand these simple principles shows that you are either an hypocrite or a moron. Personally I find moron less insulting, but that's just me.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 19:39

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Zelder posted:

I thought we agreed to drop "you're an anti Semite! (I'm pretty sure I have no proof but I'm pretty sure)" from our rhetorical war chests at the same time we agreed to drop "You're a hasbara shill! (I'm pretty sure I have no proof but I'm pretty sure)"?

Or was that last thread?

I dunno; I do think people tend to go way overboard with "ISRAEL IS THE WORST COUNTRY EVER, WORSE THAN HITLER, DEATH TO ISRAEL" crap sometimes. I doubt it's anti-semitism, it's probably just childish hyperbolic overreactionary bullshit (much like how LF was full of Americans posting "death to America" over and over as they stuffed nachos into their fat faces), but I don't blame Alhazred for calling it out. I'd probably experience the same poo poo he did ("oh, you're a Jew? I hope you don't support Israel!") on a regular basis if it wasn't for the fact that I refrain from ever discussing Israel with anyone besides very close friends (because my family would probably flip their poo poo if word somehow gets back to them that I'm not pro-Israel).

# ? Mar 5, 2015 19:40

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

There are a poo poo-ton of worse countries than israel. That doesn't make Israel good, it just means the world is really lovely.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 19:41

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

SedanChair posted:

As an American I think it would be just fine for people to say to me "Oh! Well as long as you're not a climate-change denying fundamentalist" or "as long as you don't support war." If the State of Israel insists on continuing to conflate Judaism with their particular strain of racist nationalism, people will keep getting confused and saying things that can be interpreted as anti-Semitic.

Why the gently caress would that be OK with you?. If anyone used my ethnic heritage or religious view or whatever to say "well as long as you aren't one of the bad ones" I wouldn't associate them because they would be idiot bigots.

Being pro Israel makes someone a lovely person. Being a Jew doesn't make someone pro Israel any more then it makes an American an automatic Republican.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 20:33

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

Here am I, agreeing with DarkCrawler.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 20:34

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

Yeah assuming someone's pro-Israel because they're Jewish is bad. We must reject any attempt by Israeli politicians to claim they speak for all Jews everywhere.

That said if you make stupid deflection arguments to defend Israel then I will probably assume you are pro-Israel.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 22:12

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

Main Paineframe posted:

I dunno; I do think people tend to go way overboard with "ISRAEL IS THE WORST COUNTRY EVER, WORSE THAN HITLER, DEATH TO ISRAEL" crap sometimes. I doubt it's anti-semitism, it's probably just childish hyperbolic overreactionary bullshit (much like how LF was full of Americans posting "death to America" over and over as they stuffed nachos into their fat faces), but I don't blame Alhazred for calling it out. I'd probably experience the same poo poo he did ("oh, you're a Jew? I hope you don't support Israel!") on a regular basis if it wasn't for the fact that I refrain from ever discussing Israel with anyone besides very close friends (because my family would probably flip their poo poo if word somehow gets back to them that I'm not pro-Israel).

I don't think anyone disagrees with Alhazred on calling people out. Equating Israel with all Jewish peoples is wrong. The issue I had with his posts was that he uses that as an example of people's super secret antisemitism coming out, that's pretty lame considering how hard Israel itself tries to equate its actions with the interest and needs of all Jewish people.

DarkCrawler posted:

Why the gently caress would that be OK with you?. If anyone used my ethnic heritage or religious view or whatever to say "well as long as you aren't one of the bad ones" I wouldn't associate them because they would be idiot bigots.

Real world is complicated and nuanced bro, people sometimes say or do something racist without realizing it and the appropriate response is sometimes understanding not labeling them a bigot and refusing to engage with them.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 22:31

dorkasaurus_rex: Jun 10, 2005; gawrsh do you think any women will be there

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I don't think anyone disagrees with Alhazred on calling people out. Equating Israel with all Jewish peoples is wrong. The issue I had with his posts was that he uses that as an example of people's super secret antisemitism coming out, that's pretty lame considering how hard Israel itself tries to equate its actions with the interest and needs of all Jewish people.

Real world is complicated and nuanced bro, people sometimes say or do something racist without realizing it and the appropriate response is sometimes understanding not labeling them a bigot and refusing to engage with them.

This is right. I am Jewish and was raised in a very pro-Israel setting but with some gentle prodding and tough questions being asked of me, albeit respectfully, I gradually grew to find that view point of the world not satisfactorily explanatory.

If someone had, however, called me a dumb racist Jew for being pro Israel beforehand, I probably would not have been so open to questioning my own deeply held internal beliefs.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 22:36

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

I think that the Israeli posters (emanresu tnuocca and Absurd Alhazred I think, though I know Absurd Alhazred said he no longer lives in Israel) might be conditioned on some level towards being really defensive and sensitive towards perceived antisemitism in strong criticism of Israel. Like, I think to most posters in this thread "anti-Israel" does not imply "eliminate the country of Israel" or imply antisemitic sentiment, and there have been only two or three posters in this thread that seem remotely antisemitic. It's possible that their experience living and/or growing up as an Israeli has influenced them towards perceiving antisemitism where it doesn't necessarily exist. As an American Jew, I haven't gotten any antisemitic vibes from any of the posts in this thread except for a couple posters that haven't been present in the thread for some time (and even then it's not really explicit).

I find that South Africa often serves as a good comparison in situations like this. Would you feel offended or think that someone was bigoted or an extremist for saying they were "anti-South Africa" during apartheid?

# ? Mar 5, 2015 22:37

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

I don't know man saying someone is "conditioned" seems kind of condescending to me. I think it's just an understandable response, people do equate Israel with all Jews, and people do speak really angrily about Israel both legitimate criticisms and just outright hatred. I don't think you need to be conditioned to anything before you start feeling some malice and hate there, especially with internet hyperbole being what it is.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Mar 5, 2015

# ? Mar 5, 2015 22:43

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

MonsieurChoc posted:

There are a poo poo-ton of worse countries than israel. That doesn't make Israel good, it just means the world is really lovely.

The thing about Israel is that it is the worst country that cares about global perception and legitimacy. Of course Saudi Arabia is worse, but the Saudis don't give a gently caress if a bunch of western liberals hate their government; Israel, on the other hand, does. It's the only apartheid state that's also a liberal democracy, so this faint praise earns it louder damnation.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:00

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Main Paineframe posted:

Hey, speak for yourself. I think it's adorable the way they hate the West so much just because of two or three little invasions, a coup, and our support of their biggest rival in a bloody war initiated by that rival that lasted for years and involved the use of chemical weapons against Iran. Everything about Iran becomes much, much easier to understand if you have even a passing knowledge of the last century and a half of their history.

And yet, Iran supports a regime today that has used chemical weapons on civilians several times. It's not that much easier.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:05

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

Ytlaya posted:

I think that the Israeli posters (emanresu tnuocca and Absurd Alhazred I think, though I know Absurd Alhazred said he no longer lives in Israel) might be conditioned on some level towards being really defensive and sensitive towards perceived antisemitism in strong criticism of Israel. Like, I think to most posters in this thread "anti-Israel" does not imply "eliminate the country of Israel" or imply antisemitic sentiment, and there have been only two or three posters in this thread that seem remotely antisemitic. It's possible that their experience living and/or growing up as an Israeli has influenced them towards perceiving antisemitism where it doesn't necessarily exist. As an American Jew, I haven't gotten any antisemitic vibes from any of the posts in this thread except for a couple posters that haven't been present in the thread for some time (and even then it's not really explicit).

I think it's worth noting that Israel is in the Middle East where anti-Semitism tends further towards "devil-worshipping baby eater" than it does "hook-nosed greedy banker," and the distinction between "Israel" and "the Jews" is not considered particularly relevant.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:30

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Ciprian Maricon posted:

Real world is complicated and nuanced bro, people sometimes say or do something racist without realizing it and the appropriate response is sometimes understanding not labeling them a bigot and refusing to engage with them.

Nope, sorry. For example, I'm black, if some person thinks I'm automatically a criminal they're not worth dealing with. That's about the same level as assuming someone supports apartheid and massacres of civilians because they are Jewish, or that someone supports terrorism because they are Muslim. The world has never been changed by coddling those with deep-seated prejudices and it never will be, and that includes Israel itself.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Mar 5, 2015

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:34

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

I hate every single one of you.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:39

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Avshalom posted:

I hate every single one of you.

wow what a bigot

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:41

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

I mean, listen to yourselves. "Making an assumption that someone supports the apartheid regime and murder of civilians because they're Jewish is totally understandable and you've just got to work with that and empathise with their viewpoint!" is apparently a completely reasonable thing to say, as long as you're talking about Jews and not literally any other minority in the world. Taking any umbrage to that is "Playing the anti-Semitism card." And just because someone says anti-Semitic things doesn't make them an anti-Semite! Exactly how "just because someone says racist things, that doesn't make them a racist!" Unbelievable.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:41

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Ytlaya posted:

I think that the Israeli posters (emanresu tnuocca and Absurd Alhazred I think, though I know Absurd Alhazred said he no longer lives in Israel) might be conditioned on some level towards being really defensive and sensitive towards perceived antisemitism in strong criticism of Israel. Like, I think to most posters in this thread "anti-Israel" does not imply "eliminate the country of Israel" or imply antisemitic sentiment, and there have been only two or three posters in this thread that seem remotely antisemitic. It's possible that their experience living and/or growing up as an Israeli has influenced them towards perceiving antisemitism where it doesn't necessarily exist. As an American Jew, I haven't gotten any antisemitic vibes from any of the posts in this thread except for a couple posters that haven't been present in the thread for some time (and even then it's not really explicit).

I find that South Africa often serves as a good comparison in situations like this. Would you feel offended or think that someone was bigoted or an extremist for saying they were "anti-South Africa" during apartheid?

If you were a South African in the US and people just shunned you as soon as they found out you were South African because they thought it meant you supported apartheid, or required you to affirmatively state that you didn't support apartheid? Would you be offended? Alhazred mentioned that he's faced similar treatment from people after he's told them that he was a Jew, and it isn't ludicrious for him to call that anti-Semitism, since Americans who demand that Muslims affirmatively state that they don't support terrorists/Al-Qaeda/the Taliban/ISIS/whatever are certainly doing so for racist reasons.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:47

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:40

Fuck You And Diebold: Sep 15, 2004; by Athanatos

Well what other minority supports apartheid and murder of civilians? That is a pretty majority thing to do.

# ? Mar 5, 2015 23:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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