I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Ciprian Maricon posted:

Why is it impossible to empathize with someone who is wrong and engage them? No one you respect or love has ever said anything terrible? Your grandma has never said anything super lovely about some minority? Did you yell "BIGOT" at her and never talk to her again? I don't get this all or nothing poo poo.

It's not all or nothing. If someone thinks I like rap music because I'm black I might let it slide, if someone thinks I'm a petty criminal because I'm black, they can go gently caress themselves. There are degrees of prejudice.

Ciprian Maricon posted:

Not all prejudices are deep seated dude. One of the most difficult parts about addressing problems like racism is that a lot of it is extremely subtle. There are people out there who hold prejudices without realizing it. Racism can manifest in a lot of ways completely divorced from hatred or a belief in superiority in such a way that someone with no hate can still end up buying into it. It's incredibly easy for someone to convince themselves that, for example they are uncomfortable around black people because of crime or some other bullshit they've heard parroted 1000 times. That person is reachable, why wouldn't you at least engage them before labeling them an idiot bigot forever?

There is nothing subtle about "Oh, you're a Jew? That means you must love apartheid and colonialism and actively work in furthering it!"

# ? Mar 6, 2015 01:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 31, 2024 06:54

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom, bibi may be an rear end in a top hat, but he's our rear end in a top hat and there are states who would like to see all Jews eradicated and who will attack Jewish targets with no connection to Israel just because they're Jewish. That's what he means when he said he spoke for all Jews in front of Congress---a nuclear iran under a leader who is dedicated to the eradication of Judaism and who sponsors terrorist attacks on Jewish targets unconnected with Israel is not a possibility which any Jew in this world should be willing to abide by, if only for their own safety.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 01:59

fade5: May 31, 2012; by exmarx

DaveWoo posted:

I imagine they'll be pretty much exactly the same as they've been for the past six years.

Did you miss the part where 56 Democrats skipped Netanyahu's speech, and where support for Israel is no longer a completely immutable and bipartisan rule in the US? Because it's happening, and a lot sooner than anyone expected.

Oh yeah, and I just found out that my congresscritter Joaquin Castro was one of the 56 Democrats who skipped Netanyahu's speech.

loving awesome. :c00lbert:

# ? Mar 6, 2015 02:06

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Ciprian Maricon posted:

I don't know man saying someone is "conditioned" seems kind of condescending to me. I think it's just an understandable response, people do equate Israel with all Jews, and people do speak really angrily about Israel both legitimate criticisms and just outright hatred. I don't think you need to be conditioned to anything before you start feeling some malice and hate there, especially with internet hyperbole being what it is.

Ah, yeah, it does come off that way. Absurd Alhazred and emanresu tnuocca are probably my two favorite posters in this thread, so I don't want it to come off like I'm dismissing their opinions. :ohdear:

I want to make it really clear that I'm saying "conditioned" here in the same way that black people in the US might be more conditioned to perceive racism due to growing up in a place where more racism towards them actually exists; that is, a sort of mental conditioning based off actual life experiences. I'm NOT saying that they're overreacting due to Israeli propaganda or something. The point I'm trying to make is that there might be certain things, that if said in an Israeli context, would be antisemitic, but if said by someone from the US or most of Europe (which is where most other posters in this thread are from) isn't. Like, I grew up in the South, which is probably one of the most antisemitic parts of the US, have actually experienced some antisemitism in my life (though mostly as a child), and I haven't been able to perceive any antisemitism from anyone other than those few "Israel should be eradicated from the face of the Earth" posters.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 02:07

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

420 Gank Mid posted:

A poo poo post about EuroVision

Ey, gently caress you, that was a fine rear end post. And one I wish that he'd responded to but eh.

Avshalom posted:

I am a Jew who is on your side, i.e., anti-Israel, and this kind of poo poo is incredibly alienating to me. You're making it pretty clear that you've got some major deep-seated prejudices against me, and your response to being called out on them is to try to scream me down. Why should I listen to anything that any of you have to say? Just a hint: this reaction is not unique to me.

Can you legit not understand why people might be prejudiced towards Jewish people when every single mention of Israel gets tarred with discussions on Judaism? When you've been called an anti-Semite for what seems reasonable criticisms since you've been 13? When you're not from the only other country than Israel, the US, where Jewish people feature prominently, your views of Judaism might not be entirely accurate?

I've actually mellowed out a hell of a lot on Israel thanks to having finally engaged with Israeli people who don't just yell at me right away for being anti-Zionist but agree with some of my positions. Heck, even some folks on these forums helped humanize Israelis in a way that the people I indirectly engaged with in the NGOs didn't quite.

So, I'm not trying to shout you down. Just, suggest, you know, that unfair as it is, it's on you or people like me to tell others that Israel =/= Judaism and that there is depth and character to the conflict, not just Evil Yiddom striking down the innocent Palestinians like some folks I know seem to think.

DarkCrawler posted:

There is nothing subtle about "Oh, you're a Jew? That means you must love apartheid and colonialism and actively work in furthering it!"

When the only thing people know about Judaism is likely to be "Holocaust, don't eat pork and Israel", some folks might bring up the latter for some bizarre reason. I dunno, maybe they're just dickbags.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 02:17

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Ey, gently caress you, that was a fine rear end post. And one I wish that he'd responded to but eh.
Can you legit not understand why people might be prejudiced towards Jewish people when every single mention of Israel gets tarred with discussions on Judaism? When you've been called an anti-Semite for what seems reasonable criticisms since you've been 13? When you're not from the only other country than Israel, the US, where Jewish people feature prominently, your views of Judaism might not be entirely accurate?

I've actually mellowed out a hell of a lot on Israel thanks to having finally engaged with Israeli people who don't just yell at me right away for being anti-Zionist but agree with some of my positions. Heck, even some folks on these forums helped humanize Israelis in a way that the people I indirectly engaged with in the NGOs didn't quite.

So, I'm not trying to shout you down. Just, suggest, you know, that unfair as it is, it's on you or people like me to tell others that Israel =/= Judaism and that there is depth and character to the conflict, not just Evil Yiddom striking down the innocent Palestinians like some folks I know seem to think.
When the only thing people know about Judaism is likely to be "Holocaust, don't eat pork and Israel", some folks might bring up the latter for some bizarre reason. I dunno, maybe they're just dickbags.

Dude, you're telling an ethnoreligious group of thirteen million people that it's their job to deal with your discomfort with them. Stop that.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 02:32

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

DarkCrawler posted:

There is nothing subtle about "Oh, you're a Jew? That means you must love apartheid and colonialism and actively work in furthering it!"

I agree with you man, its wrong, and its right to point it out as antisemitic. pretty sure I've said it a few times. I just think its unreasonable to use that sort of thing as evidence that critics of Israel are only engaged in the discussion as an opportunity to vent their deeply held hatred for Jewish people.

Its wrong and its dumb, but its just people parroting back the Israel = Judaism narrative that Israel and many others consistently reinforce.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 02:53

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

Criticize Netanyahu all you want, but disproportionate criticism of Israel doesn't work on two levels. Either we need to hold the state to a relative level of conduct, or an objective one.

1. If we're just going by they're a western nation, they should be held to a higher standard, then the US is worse. (To be fair, a lot of people like Chomsky are consistent in this view at least.) If this is the case, then Bibi and his voters are also justified in thinking either the Shoah is around every corner, or at least another wave of suicide bombings or rocket attacks.
2. If we're going by net abuses, then an exclusive focus on Israel is only warranted internally in the Israeli or Jewish communities, because otherwise it doesn't reflect the fact that literally hundreds of thousands of people are being slaughtered right now in mass Syria and Iraq, which draw a collective shrug in comparison.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:03

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

Yeah I've never seen anyone criticize US foreign policy on these forums, good point.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:10

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Darth Walrus posted:

Dude, you're telling an ethnoreligious group of thirteen million people that it's their job to deal with your discomfort with them. Stop that.

It practically is. Though most the I/P groups I know are very definite about how Israel =/= Judaism, most folks aren't that seriously involved with the orgs aside from maybe attending a rally now and then or reading shared articles from AJ. So they don't know about AIPAC, what a Haredi is, what the Cottage cheese protests were, about Breaking the Silence or Norman Finklestein.

What they see, is Bibi making Games of Thrones analogies and the aftermath of Protective Shield. What they hear about is how the US stops everyone from criticizing Israel past the point of any decency or sense. And they draw ill-informed and prejudiced conclusions based on this. Asking people to "go inform themselves" is about as useful as pissing yourself in a blizzard. You, me, have to step up and educate them. Just like someone did for me.

Kim Jong Il posted:

Criticize Netanyahu all you want, but disproportionate criticism of Israel doesn't work on two levels. Either we need to hold the state to a relative level of conduct, or an objective one.

1. If we're just going by they're a western nation, they should be held to a higher standard, then the US is worse. (To be fair, a lot of people like Chomsky are consistent in this view at least.) If this is the case, then Bibi and his voters are also justified in thinking either the Shoah is around every corner, or at least another wave of suicide bombings or rocket attacks.
2. If we're going by net abuses, then an exclusive focus on Israel is only warranted internally in the Israeli or Jewish communities, because otherwise it doesn't reflect the fact that literally hundreds of thousands of people are being slaughtered right now in mass Syria and Iraq, which draw a collective shrug in comparison.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:18

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Deceitful Penguin posted:

It practically is. Though most the I/P groups I know are very definite about how Israel =/= Judaism, most folks aren't that seriously involved with the orgs aside from maybe attending a rally now and then or reading shared articles from AJ. So they don't know about AIPAC, what a Haredi is, what the Cottage cheese protests were, about Breaking the Silence or Norman Finklestein.

What they see, is Bibi making Games of Thrones analogies and the aftermath of Protective Shield. What they hear about is how the US stops everyone from criticizing Israel past the point of any decency or sense. And they draw ill-informed and prejudiced conclusions based on this. Asking people to "go inform themselves" is about as useful as pissing yourself in a blizzard. You, me, have to step up and educate them. Just like someone did for me.

'Go inform yourself' is shorthand for 'shutup you ignorant twat'

You really should've gone and informed yourself more on the issue. You have any questions about accepting money from a pro-Israel lobby? I'd be happy to answer.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:21

Miltank: Dec 27, 2009; by XyloJW

shutup you ignorant twat

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:29

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Deceitful Penguin posted:

It practically is. Though most the I/P groups I know are very definite about how Israel =/= Judaism, most folks aren't that seriously involved with the orgs aside from maybe attending a rally now and then or reading shared articles from AJ. So they don't know about AIPAC, what a Haredi is, what the Cottage cheese protests were, about Breaking the Silence or Norman Finklestein.

What they see, is Bibi making Games of Thrones analogies and the aftermath of Protective Shield. What they hear about is how the US stops everyone from criticizing Israel past the point of any decency or sense. And they draw ill-informed and prejudiced conclusions based on this. Asking people to "go inform themselves" is about as useful as pissing yourself in a blizzard. You, me, have to step up and educate them. Just like someone did for me.

None of this poo poo is unique to Israel, idiots like you just think it is. For example, US unconditional support of Israel in the face of any and all atrocities is by no means unique to Israel - we're like that with pretty much all our allies, partners, and regional strongmen. As long as they do what we say, we support them unconditionally even if they commit crimes against humanity. Israel is the most prolific offender lately, but the oppression of Palestinians pales in comparison to the kinds of horrific massacres Saddam got away with when he was our best buddy in the region.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:38

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

Main Paineframe posted:

None of this poo poo is unique to Israel, idiots like you just think it is. For example, US unconditional support of Israel in the face of any and all atrocities is by no means unique to Israel - we're like that with pretty much all our allies, partners, and regional strongmen. As long as they do what we say, we support them unconditionally even if they commit crimes against humanity. Israel is the most prolific offender lately, but the oppression of Palestinians pales in comparison to the kinds of horrific massacres Saddam got away with when he was our best buddy in the region.

Not if you include the duration of oppression. It's been going on for over 70 years now.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 03:50

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Main Paineframe posted:

None of this poo poo is unique to Israel, idiots like you just think it is. For example, US unconditional support of Israel in the face of any and all atrocities is by no means unique to Israel - we're like that with pretty much all our allies, partners, and regional strongmen. As long as they do what we say, we support them unconditionally even if they commit crimes against humanity. Israel is the most prolific offender lately, but the oppression of Palestinians pales in comparison to the kinds of horrific massacres Saddam got away with when he was our best buddy in the region.

I'm rereading my post to see if I mangled something more than usual or if you're being the most willfully dense motherfucker I've dealt with today.

What the gently caress are you even replying to. The picture I drew up of a person who doesn't know or care much to know more about the conflict other than "Israel = Evil Jews" ?
Did you just have some autistic urge sidestep the point I was making, i.e. that "actually yea, fairly or not, Jewish people are tied into this and if they don't care for idiocy and pro-Israeli hasbarra, they will have to step up and engage in dialogue, even against people with bigoted and misinformed opinions if they want to have a meaningful influence", in favour of base pedantry? Were you trying to score some points based on your idiot idea of me by trying to talk about "American geopolitics for drooling retards" ?

jesus gently caress why even try and meet sincerity with sincerity here

# ? Mar 6, 2015 04:15

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Deceitful Penguin posted:

What the gently caress are you even replying to. The picture I drew up of a person who doesn't know or care much to know more about the issue other than "Blacks = Lazy Thugs" ?
Did you just have some autistic urge sidestep the point I was making, i.e. that "actually yea, fairly or not, black people are tied into this and if they don't care for criminality and race hustlers, they will have to step up and engage in dialogue, even against people with bigoted and misinformed opinions if they want to have a meaningful influence", in favour of base pedantry? Were you trying to score some points based on your idiot idea of me by trying to talk about "American politics for drooling retards" ?

jesus gently caress why even try and meet sincerity with sincerity here

fixd lol.

The problem here is not merely a total lack of perspective or self-awareness, it's that you seem to think that sincere bigotry deserves applause because of its sincerity. And yes, insisting that Jews who are, in your mind, "one of the good ones" need to work to expiate the collective guilt you would burden the Jewish people with is bigotry.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 04:32

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Can you legit not understand why people might be prejudiced towards Jewish people when

# ? Mar 6, 2015 04:46

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

I can't believe I'm in a thread about I/P and there's people that don't seem to get that empathy =/= agreeing wit/acceptance but eh, 4 in the morning is better made for sleeping than trying to get across that point.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 05:02

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Deceitful Penguin posted:

What the gently caress are you even replying to. The picture I drew up of a person who doesn't know or care much to know more about the conflict other than "Israel = Evil Jews" ?

The only people who think that are racists and racist conspiracy theorists, hope this helps!

# ? Mar 6, 2015 06:29

murphyslaw: Feb 16, 2007; It never fails

Was this posted somewhere in the no doubt extremely edifying discussion of antisemitism, part the thousandth?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/05/plo-leadership-votes-to-suspend-security-cooperation-with-israel

Article lead text:
The leadership of the Palestine Liberation Organisation has voted to suspend all security co-operation with Israel, insisting that Israel – as occupying power – should assume all responsibilities for the Palestinian territories under international law.

A statement issued by the PLO’s central committee on Thursday night announced it was calling for the suspension of “all " forms of security coordination given Israel’s systematic and ongoing non-compliance with its obligations under signed agreements, including its daily military raids throughout the State of Palestine, attacks against our civilians and properties.”

So: what will happen if they give up the security cooperation? Escalation of violence? Anarchy? Puppies and rainbows?

# ? Mar 6, 2015 08:48

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Thank you for posting that. Something like this was almost inevitable now that the PA can't pay its bills and this could be seen as a deliberate warning to Israel that they need to change course or else lose the closest thing they have to a partner in Palestine. Whether they'll heed this particular wake up call is another question. I can't even begin to speculate on what this will mean for Palestine or the Israeli elections, but it's probably not good.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 09:31

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?

# ? Mar 6, 2015 10:02

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Kim Jong Il posted:

2. If we're going by net abuses, then an exclusive focus on Israel is only warranted internally in the Israeli or Jewish communities, because otherwise it doesn't reflect the fact that literally hundreds of thousands of people are being slaughtered right now in mass Syria and Iraq, which draw a collective shrug in comparison.

http://youtu.be/se3PaCX7sjI

# ? Mar 6, 2015 11:10

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

Kajeesus posted:

How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?

They could, but Israel is not a member of the ICC (Palestine neither), and the US is Israel's divine shield in the UN.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 11:18

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Svartvit posted:

They could, but Israel is not a member of the ICC (Palestine neither), and the US is Israel's divine shield in the UN.

Can the ICC issue arrest warrants for citizens of non member states? That would effectively prevent any israelis in the poo poo list from traveling to member states.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 12:43

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Palestine joins the court on April 1st (their application being what started this crisis in the first place) and the court's jurisdiction will be retroactive to June 2014. Anything that's happened since then, including Protective Edge, could be brought to trial. There are a couple issues to consider though. The first is that the ICC generally only investigates specific major crimes against humanity, like genocide major. Protective Edge itself may meet their criteria (though the articles I've read have some disagreement here), but the various day to day injustices of the Occupation may not. In any case, it would mean treading into new and uncertain territory for a body that, until now, has mostly confined itself to prosecuting various warlords (and not always successfully). The court prefers to take on fights it can win and isn't known for courting controversy. The Palestinian appeal is something they can't reasonably ignore and they've indicated that they will investigate, but whether they'll actually press charges is another story. That said, any report on their findings, even without formal charges being filed, could seriously damage Israel's reputation.

As for whether they have jurisdiction over Israel, they don't. However, they will have jurisdiction over Palestine (presumably using the UN recognized borders) and that's really all they need. Any major crime committed within the Occupied Territories can be investigated and any Israelis accused of committing those crimes can be prosecuted and tried in absentia. Israel has no obligation to recognize such a prosecution and can certainly refuse to extradite, but in the eyes of the world (or at least the 122 countries that recognize the ICC at least) any Israeli convicted in such a trial would be considered a war criminal.

e:

MeLKoR posted:

Can the ICC issue arrest warrants for citizens of non member states? That would effectively prevent any israelis in the poo poo list from traveling to member states.

They issued an arrest warrant for Omar Al-Bashir even though Sudan isn't a member, but since then he's managed to visit several African countries without being arrested even though those countries had signed the Rome Statute and were obligated to, so it's clearly not iron clad. Then again, visiting heads of state are a lot safer from that sort of thing than just your ordinary prominent citizen type. Plus I bet he's be pretty careful about which countries he visits these days.

Duckbox fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 6, 2015

# ? Mar 6, 2015 13:25

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

MeLKoR posted:

Can the ICC issue arrest warrants for citizens of non member states? That would effectively prevent any israelis in the poo poo list from traveling to member states.

It can with a mandate from the Security Council, but the US exercises veto there. All attempts at an international co-operative effort to deal with the conflict basically starts and ends with the United States, and right now nothing is suggesting that the US has any interest in changing the way things are. The US even throws hissy fits whenever there's an international lobby group formed without their blessing, because it's considered to be their territory.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 13:26

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Kajeesus posted:

How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?

It violates the treaties and agreements between the PA and Israel, most of them originating or descending from the same Oslo talks that led to the current security cooperation and other current power-sharing arrangements in and around Palestinian territory. Unfortunately, the traditional standard punishment for one side breaking a treaty is that the other side doesn't follow the treaty anymore either. There's no international enforcement mechanism unless some power decides they want to butt in.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 16:03

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Kim Jong Il posted:

2. If we're going by net abuses, then an exclusive focus on Israel is only warranted internally in the Israeli or Jewish communities, because otherwise it doesn't reflect the fact that literally hundreds of thousands of people are being slaughtered right now in mass Syria and Iraq, which draw a collective shrug in comparison.

You know, I approve of course the US & coalition airstrikes against the Knesset and the IDF, just like I, along with the official head of states and/or governments of every country in North America and the European Union, support the right of Sunni Muslims in Iraq and Syria to defend themselves. I've also talked with some Daesh goons in the Middle East thread and they're not that bad, really.

Now can we please stop with the completely idiotic comparisons?

# ? Mar 6, 2015 16:29

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Can't readily find any other English source, but this is legit and appears all over the Israeli media: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/06/c_134045229.htm

could be the biggest blow to likud's election prospects, Bennett is already blasting him at every possible venue, I expect some seats to go from Likud to Bennett now, which ultimately doesn't really matter but might force Netanyahu into a unity coalition with Zionist Camp.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 16:38

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

kustomkarkommando posted:

http://youtu.be/se3PaCX7sjI

I agree: boycott everything.

Also, I think he missed my own country, Canada. We deserve to be on that list!

# ? Mar 6, 2015 18:23

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Kajeesus posted:

How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?

The ICC handles crimes against humanity, not nonviolent treaty violatons. The UN can involve itself in anything it wants to, but given that Oslo wasn't a UN-brokered treaty, I doubt they'd bother. Even if they did, it'd be nothing more than a simple toothless "the UN condemns Israel for being mean and implores them to not be such jackasses" letter, and Israel's gotten a million of those already. The only government on the planet who thinks withholding the tax revenue is even comparable to any of the other poo poo Israel does is the PA.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 18:53

Lum_: Jun 5, 2006

A big part of the problem with "Jews = Israel" is that this view is blasted both by Israel itself (see: Netanyahu's constant refrain of "The only safe place for Jews is Israel because Europe is full of mean Nazis" every time a terrorist attacks a Jewish target) and to a lesser extent groups like AIPAC in the US that constantly equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

It's also because in many ways Western media buys the Israeli government's narrative. I mean, Putin goes on about how Russia is the only protector of the Russian people, but no one assumes that, say, criticizing Putin's shadow invasion of Ukraine is an attack on all Russians regardless of where they live (or even all Russians generally).

Israelis and Jews get confused in discourse because Israel worked hard to make that happen. Note: there is no such thing as an Israeli nationality in Israel. Israel literally does not recognize an ethnically neutral nationality, so it's not really fair to ding people who aren't familiar with the politics involved when they make the same mistake.

# ? Mar 6, 2015 21:13

Lum_: Jun 5, 2006

Kajeesus posted:

How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?

Legally, Israel is still the occupying power in the West Bank and Gaza, and there is no such thing as an independent Palestinian nation to steal tax revenue from; in legal terms it's as if one branch of the Israeli government stole it from another branch.

Bear in mind that if it WAS against international law, it would just be piled onto the long list of legal/treaty violations Israel already has on the books (settlements, war crimes, UN resolutions, etc.)

# ? Mar 6, 2015 21:15

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Lum_ posted:

A big part of the problem with "Jews = Israel" is that this view is blasted both by Israel itself (see: Netanyahu's constant refrain of "The only safe place for Jews is Israel because Europe is full of mean Nazis" every time a terrorist attacks a Jewish target) and to a lesser extent groups like AIPAC in the US that constantly equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

It's also because in many ways Western media buys the Israeli government's narrative. I mean, Putin goes on about how Russia is the only protector of the Russian people, but no one assumes that, say, criticizing Putin's shadow invasion of Ukraine is an attack on all Russians regardless of where they live (or even all Russians generally).

Israelis and Jews get confused in discourse because Israel worked hard to make that happen. Note: there is no such thing as an Israeli nationality in Israel. Israel literally does not recognize an ethnically neutral nationality, so it's not really fair to ding people who aren't familiar with the politics involved when they make the same mistake.

The problem with this is that the Western media is widely pro-settlements and pro-Israeli policy. I have a hard time buying "well, they just got misled by Israeli propaganda and the statements of the pro-Israel US media" from someone who is calling Israel an apartheid state. That's clearly not someone who's just befuddled by Fox News - they either made the effort to educate themselves from sources that weren't Israeli propaganda and US media, or they learned from someone else who had educated themselves from sources that weren't Israeli propaganda and US media. Either way, your argument collapses pretty much instantly in the face of that.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 00:17

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Lum_ posted:

Legally, Israel is still the occupying power in the West Bank and Gaza, and there is no such thing as an independent Palestinian nation to steal tax revenue from; in legal terms it's as if one branch of the Israeli government stole it from another branch.

Bear in mind that if it WAS against international law, it would just be piled onto the long list of legal/treaty violations Israel already has on the books (settlements, war crimes, UN resolutions, etc.)

The first part of this is bunk. the UN recognizes Palestine as a "non-member observer state." The ICC is letting Palestine join as a full member. Both bodies are, in effect, recognizing its sovereignty as an independent nation. The UN and the broader international community has never accepted the proposition that the Occupied Territories are in any way part of Israel. Whatever you think of its current role, legally, the PA is the government of a sovereign nation, not a "branch of the Israeli government."

You're right that Israel has committed much worse crimes against Palestine than stealing their tax revenue, but I can't think of any occurrence in recent times more likely to completely destabilize the PA than denying it the money it needs pay its employees and maintain government services in Palestine. With the US set to cut aid to Palestine upon them joining the court (which is loving evil and has gotten no domestic coverage, fwiw), there are real doubts about whether the PA will even exist in a couple months. Rather than being a minor injustice, this de-funding campaign runs the risk of destroying Palestine's capacity for self-governance and plunging the country into chaos.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 02:14

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Sooner we see the PA fall and Palestinians start demanding equal rights as Israeli subjects, the faster is the Jewish state going to barrel towards its eventual end. It's pretty crazy how Zionism is its own worst enemy.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 03:57

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

DarkCrawler posted:

Sooner we see the PA fall and Palestinians start demanding equal rights as Israeli subjects, the faster is the Jewish state going to barrel towards its eventual end. It's pretty crazy how Zionism is its own worst enemy.

Here's the thing, Palestinians don't want equal rights under Israeli law, they want to impose Palestinian law upon Israelis. So, worst case PA collapse, what happens is ISIL's rise in the occupied territories and the liberation of those territories.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 03:59

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

My Imaginary GF posted:

Here's the thing, Palestinians don't want equal rights under Israeli law, they want to impose Palestinian law upon Israelis. So, worst case PA collapse, what happens is ISIL's rise in the occupied territories and the liberation of those territories.

Huh. That's a thought. I mean, it's an idiotic thought, but technically it does constitute a thought.

If Palestinians were offered equal rights (or even pseudo-equal rights, like every right but suffrage) you're suggesting Palestinians wouldn't jump at the chance? Property rights (which the Israelis currently hold in contempt), freedom of speech and of assembly, and other basic human rights?

"Nah, man, we're gonna hold out until a century from now, when we can push the Jews into the sea. At which point America will take them all and they'll be substantially better off. That's our anti-semetic plan for Jewish genocide."

# ? Mar 7, 2015 04:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 31, 2024 06:54

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

My Imaginary GF posted:

Here's the thing, Palestinians don't want equal rights under Israeli law, they want to impose Palestinian law upon Israelis. So, worst case PA collapse, what happens is ISIL's rise in the occupied territories and the liberation of those territories.

Here's the thing, they can't have equal rights under Israeli law because Israeli law is founded on Jewish racial supremacy. I'm sure you're going to pull off your usual pussy ignoring as always when this fact is pointed out to you, but Palestinians have to respect Israeli law and institutions just as much as black South Africans had to respect white ones, loving zero.

Zionism is digging it's own grave, at an ever increasing pace

# ? Mar 7, 2015 04:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

«‹›260 »