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paco650 posted:Literally nothing she does is interesting, and in the grand scheme of things, enables far worse things to happen all around her and especially to Robb, a loving 16-year-old boy on the warpath. Mhmmm...
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Mar 6, 2015 03:40
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Maarak posted:Mhmmm... No really. Every chapter after Bran falls is hardcore moping and doing nothing about it except let Jaime go and fail to bring her idiot son to heel. Which seems to be a theme in this book. Comprehensive list of things your teenage son should rule: his bedroom his hair the skatepark Not: a nation torn apart by politics and intrigue a grieving household that holds immense political clout a rebellion whose lynchpin relies on him NOT being a horny teen
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Mar 6, 2015 04:31
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paco650 posted:So when exactly did Stannis cross the line from "contender for the throne" to "vessel for Melisandre's weird ambitions"? Because burning your own daughter alive has to be the very far end of where you could draw that line. He never did cross that line. Melisandre will. Melisandre is notorious for misinterpreting her flame visions. I think she will decide that Azor Ahai is not Stannis, but Jon or someone else, and she will take Shireen's life of her own volition. After all, Stannis is gone, while Melisandre is left alone at the wall with Shireen and Selyse. Maybe Melisandre will think she needs some king's blood to help save a recently stabbed Jon.
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Mar 6, 2015 04:33
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paco650 posted:No really. Every chapter after Bran falls is hardcore moping and doing nothing about it except let Jaime go and fail to bring her idiot son to heel. Which seems to be a theme in this book. I wasn't clear. You are listing the interesting actions she does take, but then not counting them for some reason. I am perplexed.
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Mar 6, 2015 04:36
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Nihonniboku posted:He never did cross that line. Melisandre will. Not to mention Melisandre serves her order, what Stannis wants and what Melisandre will do are not necessarily one in the same. Although the theory seems to be based on reddit spoilers Jon's going to get rez'd by the white walkers he could just as easily get some protection as he bleeds out from the wildlings and those loyal to him and Mel receives some sign and decides to give him a fiery kiss or he gets rez'd by the white walkers and she does some spell / blood magic using shireen as a sacrifice to make him some fire and ice death dealing hybrid.
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Mar 6, 2015 04:48
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Cat swans into Renlys camp and starts dropping owns and the best "winter is coming" of the entire series. Cat is great.
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Mar 6, 2015 05:03
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Maarak posted:I wasn't clear. You are listing the interesting actions she does take, but then not counting them for some reason. I am perplexed. It might just be the singular tone of her chapters that makes everything she does so boring and frustrating for me to read. Like every time Robb does a thing, she almost reacts, stops herself, thinks about how "my son is truly a king, but is still half a boy"  , says something noncommittal and then mopes about her dwindling family for 6-10 pages. Every Time.It kind of parallels the frustration of watching Robb win but then gently caress up over and over, but at least things are happening in Robb's world. BlindSite posted:Not to mention Melisandre serves her order, what Stannis wants and what Melisandre will do are not necessarily one in the same. Although the theory seems to be based on reddit spoilers Jon's going to get rez'd by the white walkers he could just as easily get some protection as he bleeds out from the wildlings and those loyal to him and Mel receives some sign and decides to give him a fiery kiss or he gets rez'd by the white walkers and she does some spell / blood magic using shireen as a sacrifice to make him some fire and ice death dealing hybrid. I wish the Children would bring Jon back Coldhands-style and he brings the fight to the Grand Ice Wizard that Mr. Freeze-d that baby in the show. That was a good ending, man. im cute fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 05:29
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paco650 posted:It might just be the singular tone of her chapters that makes everything she does so boring and frustrating for me to read. Like every time Robb does a thing, she almost reacts, stops herself, thinks about how "my son is truly a king, but is still half a boy" Cat's chapters are the most annoying in the whole book and I was kind of relieved when someone cut her throat out. I mean I was gutted and wept like a little baby in the fetal position for an hour but on re-reads it's punishing getting through her hand wringing over the bullshit she caused. If she wasn't so easily mis-lead and did as she was told by her lord the mess wouldn't have been half as bad as it was.
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Mar 6, 2015 05:50
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webmeister posted:I still can't believe so many people didn't get that a guy who spends his entire life walking in and out of the ocean had the nickname "damp hair" To be fair to them (and me, I'm of the drat Fair-crowd), it's a phenomenally awkward name. Especially when they stress that he is not any old damphair, he is THE Damphair, as if that's supposed to mean anything to anyone. Like, I can think of a thousand more badass nicknames you could give your Viking sea-priest and none of them refer to the state of his hair.
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Mar 6, 2015 09:56
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paco650 posted:enables far worse things to happen all around her Releasing Jaime does kinda set him on the path to redemption (or, at the very least, hobble him so he'll never take up the sword again). Its kinda a big "what if" had he been freed at the Red Wedding instead and returned to King's Landing intact.
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Mar 6, 2015 12:42
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I doubt the Red Wedding would had happened if Jamie has still been a prisoner. "Our king, his mother and a ton of our lords and heirs are dead? Betrayed by an ally after being given guest rights? Welp we'll just have to take it out on the kingslayer". And the only part of Jamie the lannister a see again is his head. Tywin would not do anything that would possibly lead to harm coming to Jamie.
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Mar 6, 2015 14:24
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Cat swans into Renlys camp and starts dropping owns and the best "winter is coming" of the entire series. Cat is great. Yeah whenever someone says there aren't any good Cat chapters my mind just goes straight to Renly's camp; she was great there.
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Mar 6, 2015 14:28
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Not to mention if Jaime isn't released he never treats with Roose privately. I have to imagine that this meeting was in some way a catalyst for the betrayal.
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Mar 6, 2015 14:32
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I got banned from this very sub-forum by Aatrek for speaking ill of Cat, in particular show-Cat. Her decisions are bad, but justifiable in the books. In the show, she's nto even heard that her youngest sons are "dead", so there's no justification for her actions.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:00
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She noticed how blood thirsty Karstark was getting and when Jaime kills his 2nd son after escaping, Cat thinks about what will happen to her daughters if Karstark kills Jaime in response. I think this was added in the show to give Cat her reasons.
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Mar 6, 2015 19:18
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Was anyone else unsymapthetic to the Stark cause from the start? Yeah, they were all mostly nice and the Lannisters were all kind of dicks, but politically, they ruined the Kingdoms. Joff as a puppet of Tywin (and we all know that Cersei alone would object to removing him for Tommen if he proved unable to be tamed) would've resulted in a decent situation for the whole realm. The Lannisters would be in charge but, hey, they came to power without starting any wars (they merely prosecute them with ruthless efficiency- and really, the only difference between Stark plunderers and Lannister plunderers is that the Starks pretend it won't happen, while Lannister directs it for strategic gain.) and they are one of the few families ready to handle the responsibility. They're rich and, despite the Wonder Twins, generally competent. Tywin, Kevan, etc. Instead, we have dumbass Ned choosing conflict over stability in the name of "honour", dumbass Catelyn starting a war on false pretenses, and dumbass Robb escalating rather than backing down. I was rooting for Robb to go down because he was a lovely king with no legitimate grounds to be fighting.
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Mar 6, 2015 22:35
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paco650 posted:It might just be the singular tone of her chapters that makes everything she does so boring and frustrating for me to read. Like every time Robb does a thing, she almost reacts, stops herself, thinks about how "my son is truly a king, but is still half a boy" Which is all fairly realistic for a woman who's husband just got executed, and is watching her 15-16 year old son be declared King and is deathly terrified of losing any more family to this war that's already consumed 3 to 4 of her kids and spouse. That said Catelyn is a pretty savvy political operator (Yes, kidnapping Tyrion did lead to the Lannister invasion, BUT had Robert lived and Ned not been executed, Tywin more than likely would've been hosed. Joffrey coming to power and Eddard being executed are really the only reasons a big coalition of Westeros wasn't put together to stomp the Westermen.. quote:
This assumes that Tywin could control Joffrey, which is not a guarantee. Joffrey has shown in the past the ability conceal some of his worse habits in front of disapproving eyes. And Tywin was unable to control Aerys, so what happens when Tywin is old and grey and Joffrey is a strapping young king in his late 20s to early 30s? There's also the wrinkle of what happens if Tywin dies? Tyrion doesn't have the clout to rule as Hand of the King, he only managed what he did because his father backed him. quote:Instead, we have dumbass Ned choosing conflict over stability in the name of "honour", dumbass Catelyn starting a war on false pretenses, and dumbass Robb escalating rather than backing down. If anyone overreacted, it was the Lannisters. The proper response to a kidnapping would most likely be a petition to the King, not a full-scale invasion and siege of one of the major castles of Westeros, and given that Jaime goes ahead and assaults Eddard in the streets of King's Landing, the Lannisters are still 2-1 on overreacting. Furthermore, Robb and his bannermen's only choice after the Battle of Riverrun and the Battle of the Green Fork was between continuing to fight, or going to King's Landing to "pay homage" to King Joffrey, and living the rest of their lives as prisoners, if not outright murdered. Had Littlefinger not been a sadistic rear end in a top hat and convinced Joffrey to have Eddard's head removed from his body, Tywin and Robb more than likely would have worked out a trade and a peace. After Eddard gets the axe, the amount of crimes against the Starks by the Lannisters is too much to allow for a peace. Seriously, why does no oe blame the real individuals responsible for the War of the Five Kings; Cersei, Littlefinger, and Varys all have their hands drenched in blood of innocents at this point, and yet it's always "Eddard and Catelyn were dumb and caused a war". Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 22:58
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The Starks didn't really have a "cause ", most of their actions are reactionary. There was going to be chaos in the realm one way or another, Littlefinger made sure of that.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:22
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In the great scheme of things the Lannisters made self-serving, ineffectual rulers at best, tyrants at worst. Even if you only count the competent, sane ones.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:29
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HBO continues its attempts to corner the urban market by planning the release of the second volume of Catch the Throne. Volume one was wonderful.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:34
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Which is all fairly realistic for a woman who's husband just got executed, and is watching her 15-16 year old son be declared King and is deathly terrified of losing any more family to this war that's already consumed 3 to 4 of her kids and spouse. Besides all this, Robb in particular had to accept the Kingship and to continue fighting because if he hadn't it would've turned many of his bannermen against him and the Lannisters were unwilling to negotiate fairly, with even Tyrion sending assassins to murder Tully men and free Jaime and hoping the negotiations will distract Robb so he can be crushed by Stafford Lannister. It seems like people blame the Starks because they're under the misapprehension that medieval-style politics is all Machiavellian scheming when in actuality concepts like justice, honor, duty, and loyalty are some of the only things keeping the peace at all in a system like that.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:49
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:
Wait, what is this? I thought Joffrey was acting on his own (shithead) accord on that one. I thought it was pretty well established that everyone wanted Ned to take the black and Joffrey pulled a last minute fast one to show his dominance as king.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:10
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Anti-Hero posted:Wait, what is this? I thought Joffrey was acting on his own (shithead) accord on that one. I thought it was pretty well established that everyone wanted Ned to take the black and Joffrey pulled a last minute fast one to show his dominance as king. Joffrey's inherent shitheadness certainly comes into it, but Littlefinger also gives him a push in that direction. I can't remember where it's stated, but at the time Varys is trying to keep the realm together while Littlefinger wants the opposite.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:25
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Anti-Hero posted:Wait, what is this? I thought Joffrey was acting on his own (shithead) accord on that one. I thought it was pretty well established that everyone wanted Ned to take the black and Joffrey pulled a last minute fast one to show his dominance as king. He's talking about the books. In the show it was all Joffrey, or at least there has been no implication that anyone else gave him the idea.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:32
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Anti-Hero posted:Wait, what is this? I thought Joffrey was acting on his own (shithead) accord on that one. I thought it was pretty well established that everyone wanted Ned to take the black and Joffrey pulled a last minute fast one to show his dominance as king. It's implied that Littlefinger had a role in encouraging Joffrey's thinking on this one.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:35
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The speed with which Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne react to Joffrey's orders suggest it was preplanned. Ned is thrown down immediately and Ilyn Payne is present and ready to act despite Ned's confession taking place in a site that is holy and supposed to be sacred. Littlefinger is the only one on the royal dias who does not react in shock to Joffrey's command. Varys later implies that the true blame for Ned's death is someone other than Ilyn, who swung the sword, and Joffrey, who gave the order. The "even a small man can cast a large shadow" speech is not a reference to Tyrion, it is about Littlefinger. Littlefinger has previously manipulated people into doing what he wants without explicitly telling them to. According to Varys, it was Littlefinger who implanted the idea of incest in Stannis' mind and kickstarted his investigation. Littlefinger is the one who really benefits from Ned's death, and he obviously has a bone to pick with the Starks.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:36
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In It For The Tank posted:HBO continues its attempts to corner the urban market by planning the release of the second volume of Catch the Throne. Really disappointed with the Talib Kweli song. Meh beat, terrible chorus. I expected better from you Talib, especially if you're going to focus on the one true King of Westeros.  Edit: First three episode titles revealed: 501: The Wars to Come 502: The House of Black and White 503: High Sparrow
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Mar 7, 2015 02:37
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BlindSite posted:Not to mention Melisandre serves her order, what Stannis wants and what Melisandre will do are not necessarily one in the same. Although the theory seems to be based on reddit spoilers Jon's going to get rez'd by the white walkers he could just as easily get some protection as he bleeds out from the wildlings and those loyal to him and Mel receives some sign and decides to give him a fiery kiss or he gets rez'd by the white walkers and she does some spell / blood magic using shireen as a sacrifice to make him some fire and ice death dealing hybrid. For best results he get's brought back by Mel, then opens the gate for the others and the army of the dead because gently caress everyone. His family was wiped out by the realm, and he was stabbed to death by the watch. He owes no one anything.
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Mar 7, 2015 03:34
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I found the revelation that Littlefinger was behind everything to be ridiculously unsatisfying and I'm entirely sick of his character.
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Mar 7, 2015 03:57
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Ballz posted:501: The Wars to Come Not wasting any time getting to the plot rolling. I'm excited about the House of Black and White
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Mar 7, 2015 05:27
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lifts cats over head posted:Not to mention if Jaime isn't released he never treats with Roose privately. I have to imagine that this meeting was in some way a catalyst for the betrayal. If I remember correctly there have already been subtle hints that Roose was planning to betray the Starks by this point. Basically every time military action carried out by Roose is described it happens to be him bleeding the forces of the Stark-loyal bannermen while conserving his own strength, and that of the Freys. I think just before his conversation with Jaime we learn how Roose got a big part of Stark/Glover/Umber soldiers butchered by the Mountain when they were trying to cross a river, which in hindsight turned out to be a huge red flag.
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Mar 7, 2015 10:25
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In It For The Tank posted:Littlefinger is the one who really benefits from Ned's death, and he obviously has a bone to pick with the Starks. And specifically with Ned.
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Mar 7, 2015 10:46
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Was Littlefinger at court already when Aerys burned Ned's dad and made Brandon strangle himself? That would mirror Littlefinger whispering in Joffrey's ear to behead Ned beautifully, as his grudge against Bran must have been way bigger than his grudge against Ned.
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Mar 7, 2015 10:55
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Grendels Dad posted:Was Littlefinger at court already when Aerys burned Ned's dad and made Brandon strangle himself? That would mirror Littlefinger whispering in Joffrey's ear to behead Ned beautifully, as his grudge against Bran must have been way bigger than his grudge against Ned. Littlefinger was brought in with Jon Arryn. It was Varys and Pycelle who were whispering poison into Aerys' ears. Blind Marvin posted:He's talking about the books. In the show it was all Joffrey, or at least there has been no implication that anyone else gave him the idea. ShowFinger feeds Roz to Joffrey in a similar way. In It For The Tank posted:The "even a small man can cast a large shadow" speech is not a reference to Tyrion, it is about Littlefinger. I wrote this post a few days ago on a different forum: quote:The riddle is an allusion to how Ned Stark died. The king is Joffrey, the priest is the High Septon, rich man is Baelish and the sellsword is Ser Ilyn Payne. In It For The Tank posted:According to Varys, it was Littlefinger who implanted the idea of incest in Stannis' mind and kickstarted his investigation. Really? I assumed he came up with it independently as he was sitting in King's Landing grinding his teeth about Storm's End and what he deserved. He picked up something small that would be dismissed as the ramblings of an ambitious uncle (why he needed Arryn to lend him legitimacy) and it happened to be correct. Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 11:23
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Ballz posted:First three episode titles revealed: And 504 is The Sons of the Harpy.
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Mar 7, 2015 11:30
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Ague Proof posted:Really? I assumed he came up with it independently as he was sitting in King's Landing grinding his teeth about Storm's End and what he deserved. He picked up something small that would be dismissed as the ramblings of an ambitious uncle (why he needed Arryn to lend him legitimacy) and it happened to be correct. Yes. Here's the exchange in ACOK: quote:Tyrion adjusted the heavy cloak and paced restlessly. “You missed a lively council. Stannis has crowned himself, it seems.” While it is conceivable that Varys is lying, or was himself the whisperer (although that doesn't make much sense since Varys wanted to deescalate the conflict to give time for his own plans to come to fruition), I feel like it is probably the truth because it fits so well with Littlefinger's constant attempts to escalate the war. It only make sense that he kickstarted the whole thing from the very beginning by turning Stannis (and subsequently Jon Arryn) against the Lannisters and sowing the seeds for the war in the first place.
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Mar 7, 2015 12:06
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In It For The Tank posted:Yes. Here's the exchange in ACOK: Oh ok, thanks. Stannis didn't seem to trust Varys at all so this makes sense.
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Mar 7, 2015 12:13
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Ague Proof posted:I wrote this post a few days ago on a different forum: Women "sew" pants. Men "sow" chaos.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:11
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Irish Joe posted:Women "sew" pants. Men "sow" chaos. Not if they're ironborn!
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Mar 7, 2015 15:13
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We do not sew. e: Not quite quick enough to throw in an ironborn joke.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:13
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