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DarkCrawler posted:Here's the thing, they can't have equal rights under Israeli law because Israeli law is founded on Jewish racial supremacy. I'm sure you're going to pull off your usual pussy ignoring as always when this fact is pointed out to you, but Palestinians have to respect Israeli law and institutions just as much as black South Africans had to respect white ones, loving zero. Funny, here I was thinking Judaism was a religion and not a race, and that individuals are free to pursue the religious identity of their choice.
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Mar 7, 2015 04:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:Funny, here I was thinking Judaism was a religion and not a race, and that individuals are free to pursue the religious identity of their choice. Judaism is an ethnoreligious group where conversion is immensely difficult. I though you were Jewish? You should really know this if you were. Also, a state where only people with given religion have full rights is no better then Iran or Saudi-Arabia either way.
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Mar 7, 2015 04:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Judaism is an ethnoreligious group where conversion is immensely difficult. I though you were Jewish? You should really know this if you were. And so today we learn that MIGF is not actually Jewish, just a dude who masturbates to the thought of nuking the Iranians.
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Mar 7, 2015 04:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Sooner we see the PA fall and Palestinians start demanding equal rights as Israeli subjects, the faster is the Jewish state going to barrel towards its eventual end. It's pretty crazy how Zionism is its own worst enemy. It's a good thing those funny little brown Palestinian people have heroic white anti-zionists to tell them what they want. Without you, they might go on believing what they want is a Palestinian state of their own. I salute you for taking up the White Man's Burden and telling those backwards Arabs what's truly best for them.
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Mar 7, 2015 05:40
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The Insect Court posted:It's a good thing those funny little brown Palestinian people have heroic white anti-zionists to tell them what they want. Without you, they might go on believing what they want is a Palestinian state of their own. I salute you for taking up the White Man's Burden and telling those backwards Arabs what's truly best for them. Gee, that's weird, I feel like they have often demanded a state of their own. Having seen a map of the West Bank, including Israeli settlements, a single independent Palestinian state seems wildly untenable. Not to mention that if Israel ever elects Likud again, the idea of a truly independent Palestinian state is explicitly against their stated principles. So, yes. right-wing strawman, if Israel were to remove a substantial number of its settlements so as to create territorial continuity within Palestine (ignoring Gaza, for practical and argumentative reasons), and expel Likud from the political mainstream, peace might well be possible, and it wouldn't require any of us "white people" espousing an opinion. gently caress Likud, gently caress the Republicans, gently caress the Tories (and UKIP, obviously), gently caress whoever Tony Abbott's party is. gently caress all right-wing racists. I'm not even a leftist, I'm a social democrat, so when the revolution comes, I'll be, like, 100th against the wall. But the first 90 will be rightists, and that'll make the whole thing entirely worthwhile.
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Mar 7, 2015 06:37
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The Insect Court posted:It's a good thing those funny little brown Palestinian people have heroic white anti-zionists to tell them what they want. Without you, they might go on believing what they want is a Palestinian state of their own. I salute you for taking up the White Man's Burden and telling those backwards Arabs what's truly best for them. what's that supposed to mean? Palestinians want their own state and the return of the refugees kicked out by the European-Russian ethnic cleansing done to them. that's in like every single little bit of their literature and the entire reason for their struggle. Either ways, it's been proven that due to the nature of Israel, they will never get to enjoy human rights and a country of their own unless either (a) Israel completely withdraws from the west bank and Gaza, including no more border controls and settlements.(b) the apartheid racialist system of government and makeup of Israel is replaced with a non racial non-religiously fanatic system of government, in which automatically Palestinians will be well over 50% of the voting block, 65 if we count the return of the refugees who will come back, thus attaining their human rights and freedom. unless Israel can get away with killing millions of people all of a sudden, the Palestinians have essentially won the demographic war, which prevents them from meeting the fate Israel desired of them. You know, its so funny you pull out the 'white mans burden' card when you're a massive right-winger and support Israel to the hilt, I mean you don't support equal and human rights to people and think oppressing them is a good thing and you have the gall to pull out that card? Hint:- White mans burden was a justification for colonialism, not advocating for the liberation of people from a colonialist project.
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Mar 7, 2015 06:42
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DarkCrawler posted:Judaism is an ethnoreligious group where conversion is immensely difficult. I though you were Jewish? You should really know this if you were. Given religion? You said Judaism is ethnoreligious and that conversion is difficult. Is Jewishness an Israeli thing, a religious thing, or an ethnic thing? This thread and Israel in general are confusing as hell. *edit* Just to be clear, I'm acting dense because the conflation between race and religion, religion and national identity, and any combination in between is stupid as all hell. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 07:51
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The Insect Court posted:It's a good thing those funny little brown Palestinian people have heroic white anti-zionists to tell them what they want. Without you, they might go on believing what they want is a Palestinian state of their own. I salute you for taking up the White Man's Burden and telling those backwards Arabs what's truly best for them. I think what he's saying is that the collapse of the PA is just going to bring about a never ending revolt because Israel pretty much executed the PA via lack of funding. Like he said, Zionism is it's own worst enemy. Israel could have been living in peace for decades had it just gotten over itself and slowly moved towards either a 2 state system or integrated the Palestinian area's and made said occupants citizens. Instead Israel decided it wanted decades of war and death 
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Mar 7, 2015 09:15
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A Terrible Person posted:Given religion? Religious, ethnic, cultural, all of them and none at the same time. The national element is the most controversial of course, and also the least relevant: despite disagreement over who is a Jew, nobody says one is Jewish because they are Israeli. Also it's silly to compare the phenomenon of how facile it is when people typically conflate religion and identity, with the sui generis phenomenon of Judaism where people from different cultures, races, ethnicities, and religions (in the sense avowed atheists can be Jews in the eyes of strict Orthodox Jews) profess to share an identity. What this identity actually means or even can mean on its own apart from the constituent elements that make it up is a relevant and complex question without very good answers.
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Mar 7, 2015 09:41
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Jews.
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Mar 7, 2015 09:44
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It's actually all Sea People and Khazars so there's no I/P problem at all!
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Mar 7, 2015 09:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:Funny, here I was thinking Judaism was a religion and not a race, and that individuals are free to pursue the religious identity of their choice. So you are a holocaust denier? A Terrible Person posted:Given religion? It's MIGF who's saying that all the Palestinians need to do is to convert to Judaism and they will miraculously be accepted as brothers by their super-racist Israeli neighbors. He forget that conversion to Judaism is not something you can do for yourself on your own. Max Paineframe also made some effortposts about the issue. So the reply was "a. you're wrong (as usual) and b. even if you were right, then it would still be super-lovely".
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Mar 7, 2015 10:12
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Al-Saqr posted:what's that supposed to mean? Palestinians want their own state and the return of the refugees kicked out by the European-Russian ethnic cleansing done to them. that's in like every single little bit of their literature and the entire reason for their struggle. Hah yes the khazar invaders Die in a fire.
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Mar 7, 2015 10:50
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I hope MIGF turns out to be a gay girl from Damascus
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Mar 7, 2015 10:56
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Avshalom posted:I hope MIGF turns out to be a gay girl from Damascus With ISIS knocking at the door? That seems a little dark even considering this thread's grand old tradition of elaborate revenge fantasies.
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Mar 7, 2015 11:01
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Darth Walrus posted:With ISIS knocking at the door? That seems a little dark even considering this thread's grand old tradition of elaborate revenge fantasies.  it was a reference to a few years ago when a prominent queer syrian liveblogger was revealed to actually be a straight white guy living in seattle
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Mar 7, 2015 11:07
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i would never wish harm on migf
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Mar 7, 2015 11:08
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Avshalom posted:
Hey, I lol'd. That case was loving hilarious in general. Not only did the owner of the lesbian news site he'd been posting on also turn out to be a straight white guy, but the "syrian girl" had apparently tried to hit on the "lesbian professional" and the latter (who says he never flirted back), had the gall to accuse the former of being creepy. Both of them justified themselves by saying they were "providing a voice" for lesbian women. They certainly weren't hijacking the identity of a hot new minority for their own personal gratification, no ma'am.
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Mar 7, 2015 11:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Hah yes the khazar invaders I've read and re-read this post and Al-Saqr's post you're quoting and I can't for the life of me understand what you're talking about.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:21
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There is a kind of hilarious conspiracy theory that modern Jews are secret Khazars with no right to the land of Israel. Truly one of the most hilarious conspiracy theories. There is also academic work on the topic but it's mostly a disregarded theory. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 13:23
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Is the premise that if modern Jews were Jews or Israelites or whatever the correct heritage is, they'd then be entitled to the land of Israel? I doubt anyone in this thread genuinely cares who modern Jews descended from.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:33
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Kajeesus posted:Is the premise that if Jews were Jews or Israelites or whatever, they'd then be entitled to the land of Israel? I doubt anyone in this thread genuinely cares who modern Jews descended from. It forms a part of a wider debate about how coherent the people of Israel are to their ancestors who originally lived there yes. One major criticism in some historiography of Israel is that it is like a modern nation, in that it embraces ahistorical foundation stories and race myths, so that's created some scrutiny of the question of whether claims that the Jewish people have maintained any kind of ethnic consistency. The idea that the Khazars migrated and converted and became the basis of the ashkenazi ethnicity has been a plank of that, but I think it's mostly now regarded as a pretty eccentric view, and is also used by some antisemites.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:38
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Disinterested posted:It forms a part of a wider debate about how coherent the people of Israel are to their ancestors who originally lived there yes. One major criticism in some historiography of Israel is that it is like a modern nation, in that it embraces ahistorical foundation stories and race myths, so that's created some scrutiny of the question of whether claims that the Jewish people have maintained any kind of ethnic consistency. Yeah, historically speaking, it's kinda weird that people bring up 2000+ year old events. I mean, not that anyone should take him seriously, but MIGF literally said that Israel is the culmination of a 2000 year strategy to get this kind of state and that the Palestinians should embrace a similar approach.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:51
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Disinterested posted:There is a kind of hilarious conspiracy theory that modern Jews are secret Khazars with no right to the land of Israel. Truly one of the most hilarious conspiracy theories. Yeah, but what does that have to do with Al-Saqr's post?
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Mar 7, 2015 13:54
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, historically speaking, it's kinda weird that people bring up 2000+ year old events. I mean, not that anyone should take him seriously, but MIGF literally said that Israel is the culmination of a 2000 year strategy to get this kind of state and that the Palestinians should embrace a similar approach. If the cause which they fight for is true, then it can survive the test of time. If individuals are unwilling to put it to the test, then I cannot help but see them as unduly impatient and unwilling to develop their own state without handouts from elsewhere. FreshlyShaven posted:Yeah, but what does that have to do with Al-Saqr's post? Al-Saqr is a notorious anti-semite and has lost the benefit of the doubt. When he says that Israel is a land occupied by Russian-Europeans, he is making a dogwhistle to the khazar conspiracy and that ashkenazi israelis aren't even true jews.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:54
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FreshlyShaven posted:Yeah, but what does that have to do with Al-Saqr's post? I think he was referring to the 'European-Russian ethnic cleansing' remark, but I don't really see what he's trying to say either.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:Al-Saqr is a notorious anti-semite and has lost the benefit of the doubt. When he says that Israel is a land occupied by Russian-Europeans, he is making a dogwhistle to the khazar conspiracy and that ashkenazi israelis aren't even true jews. The more generous reading is that a number of Jews in Israel came there from the Soviet Union, and it's not intended as a dog whistle.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:59
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Allow me to clarify, Al Saqr is antisemitic garbage who hides behind the the trivial "I only hate Jews who are also Israelis" distinction thinking this makes him a courageous and erudite freedom fighter and his idiotic hate-mongering posts will thus be met with minimal effort on my part, when he refuses to even refer to the jews living in Palestine in 1948 as Jews (the way they defined themselves) it is not a huge leap-of-faith to presume that he channeling some idiotic anti-semitic propaganda that is meant to depict the zionist narrative as co opting the historiography of a long-dead-nation to whom they have no actual relation to. The majority of JEWS living in Palestine as of 1948 were refugees who fled europe following the rise of nazism, it is ok to refer to them simply as jews, the majority of them weren't even of russian descent (unlike the Zionist migrations from russia of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, who also fled antisemitic prosecution FYI), here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_Bet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricha As for the Khazar myth itself, it is true that some Khazars converted to Judaism, how many converted is unknown, it is known that their royal family at some point converted to Judaism and declared their nation to be Jewish, aside from that, it is also true that over the course of the past two millennia many gentiles converted to Judaism, the opposite is also obviously true, this is utterly irrelevant either way but it is worth noting that the majority of modern genetic studies found links between Ashkenazi Jews to Mizrahi Jews and other indigenous populations to the Levant, which should surprise absolutely no one given that there are historical records proving the existence of Jewish communities all over europe and the near east for over two thousand years. Many anti-semites think that Shlomo Sand argues in "The invention of the jewish people" that Jews are indeed Khazars when in fact all he does is try to present alternative historiographies and question that specific historiography preferred by Zionists, there is absolutely no credible academic work that claims that Ashkenazi Jews are 100% converts who merely co opted an ancient culture for their own political ends.
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Mar 7, 2015 14:06
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Disinterested posted:The more generous reading is that a number of Jews in Israel came there from the Soviet Union, and it's not intended as a dog whistle. On the other hand, the Jews from the former Soviet Union didn't come to Israel en masse until the 90s, after the ethnic cleansing was a fait accompli. Al-Saqr's phrasing is strange(particularly the Russian part, given that German Jews were much more active in pre-Independence Zionism than other groups) but it's essentially a perfectly good point: the Zionists who ethnically cleansed Palestine were Europeans who had no legitimate claim to the land. quote:Al-Saqr is a notorious anti-semite and has lost the benefit of the doubt. Kind of like how you're a notorious Islamophobe?
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Mar 7, 2015 14:08
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I can't speak to the antisemitism question but your history stacks up with everything I have read, for what it's worth.
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Mar 7, 2015 14:09
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Disinterested posted:The more generous reading is that a number of Jews in Israel came there from the Soviet Union, and it's not intended as a dog whistle. 
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Mar 7, 2015 14:10
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We all know Jews are from Beta Israel anyways.
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Mar 7, 2015 14:10
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Also it's pretty clear al-Saqr was referring to WW2 era persecution against Jews.
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Mar 7, 2015 14:17
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FreshlyShaven posted:On the other hand, the Jews from the former Soviet Union didn't come to Israel en masse until the 90s, after the ethnic cleansing was a fait accompli. Al-Saqr's phrasing is strange(particularly the Russian part, given that German Jews were much more active in pre-Independence Zionism than other groups) but it's essentially a perfectly good point: the Zionists who ethnically cleansed Palestine were Europeans who had no legitimate claim to the land. Please provide an example of another throng of refugees who sought to flee to one specific country for whatever reason that you think need to prove a claim to their country of destination, do we expect the Sudanese refugees who flee to Israel and other countries to prove a 'claim'? Jews were barred entry to many countries following the holocaust and the Zionists in Israel smuggled them into the country, claim has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to think of other such situations in which a refugee population flees somewhere and 'leftists' would go 'you have no claim to this country, flee somewhere else'. For me this seems like part of a narrative that is meant to completely whitewash the escalation that occurred before the Nakba in an attempt to depict Israel/Jews/The-Zionists as cosmically malicious. To clarify, the Nakba cannot ever be excused, this is not the point I'm making, the point I'm making is that when poo poo was hitting the fan in 1948 it was following three decades of tensions between Jews and Palestinians that cannot be simply ignored on account of "the jews having no claim".
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Mar 7, 2015 14:26
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Please provide an example of another throng of refugees who sought to flee to one specific country for whatever reason that you think need to prove a claim to their country of destination, do we expect the Sudanese refugees who flee to Israel and other countries to prove a 'claim'? Jews were barred entry to many countries following the holocaust and the Zionists in Israel smuggled them into the country, claim has nothing to do with it. As you admit, the events occurring in Palestine during WWII cannot be separated from the context of the decades preceding it, which was a long, slow attempt at ethnically cleansing Palestine in order to make it an exclusivist Jewish state. Ethnic cleansing had long been the end goal of the colonization of Palestine, back when Hitler was nothing more than a drunk painter. Of course those fleeing the Nazis were justified in escaping to anywhere they could, but a) the refugees were not, for the most part, those in charge(they were actually treated pretty poorly by those Zionists who were already colonizing Palestine), b) you seem to conflate immigration with colonization; they are very different things(immigrants seek to join a society; colonists seek to destroy the existing society and replace it with one where they're in charge), c) just because they were justified in coming to Palestine to escape the Nazi death machine doesn't mean they were justified in settling there permanently against the wishes of the indigenous people or that the Zionists were in any way justified in expelling Palestinians from the land on account of their race. And the founders of Zionism were all European(and American/Canadian/Australian, etc.) Jews who had no claim to a land their ancestors left millenia ago, Europeans who believed that their racial and cultural superiority entitled them to invade Palestine just like the French were entitled in colonizing West Africa or the Americans were justified in colonizing the Indian West. quote:I'm trying to think of other such situations in which a refugee population flees somewhere and 'leftists' would go 'you have no claim to this country, flee somewhere else'. Yes, the situation is pretty unique. quote:For me this seems like part of a narrative that is meant to completely whitewash the escalation that occurred before the Nakba in an attempt to depict Israel/Jews/The-Zionists as cosmically malicious. It seems like you're trying to whitewash the fact that long before the Holocaust occurred, European Zionists began a project of ethnic cleansing. As Benny Morris writes: quote:[T]ransfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism–because it sought to transform a land which was "Arab" into a "Jewish" state and a Jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of Arab population; and because this aim automatically produced resistance among the Arabs which, in turn, persuaded the Yishuv’s leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure. The Holocaust cannot retroactively justify an act of evil that had been planned and put into motion long before the Holocaust occurred. FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 14:47
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Morris is inferring, he has no way to ascertain that statement and indeed the fact that he is used as a primary source for these claims is problematic, when exactly Zionists decided that "an ethnic majority within a geographically continuous territory" was the only valid option is a question that has no clear answers, Hertzel clearly didn't espouse this view while by 1948 Ben Gurion clearly did, the common perception is that the language of ethnic cleansing became prominent around 1936, Morris himself tears into Pappe's claims about Ben Gurion promoting ethnic cleansing since the 1920s. Regardless, Morris himself is not a primary source and even the quote you provided does not provide clear answers as to the extent of the allegedly planned ethnic cleansing, it is hard to imagine that back in 1920 given the trickle of Jews immigrating into Palestine that the Yishuv had plans to fully ethnically cleanse greater Israel, again, by 1948 this seems like something that was obviously in their minds. It seems bizarre to suggest that the ethnic cleansing of palestine was in motion for decades prior to 1948 given that without the mass immigrations post 1939 there was absolutely no way the Jews could muster sufficient man power to pull anything like that off and that only through circumstances completely outside the control of the Yishuv it became possible by 1948. At best you could say that the Zionist had a dream of ethnically cleansing palestine, but to describe it as an 'ongoing project' seems far fetched, also worth noting is Morris' qualification of a 'hostile majority' which should raise the question of which came first, the ethnic cleansing rationale or the hostility that supposedly justifies it. Another interesting question is why would the language espoused by the zionist leadership excuse the actual actions of the Palestinian majority against the Jewish minorities of Palestine at the time (including non-Zionist ones, such as the 1929 massacre), and if such a justification exists why can't it go the other way around as well re: Amin Al Husseini. (The answer is it doesn't).
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Mar 7, 2015 15:08
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Venom Snake posted:
What do you think of the Fedayeen invasions, which pre date 1967? What about Hamas deliberately trying to get Likud elected in 1996, or about Fatah doing the same in 2000/2001? How about not launching attacks the second Sharon pulled out of Gaza? Those put a dagger in Oslo and finished it off.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:28
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Morris is inferring, he has no way to ascertain that statement and indeed the fact that he is used as a primary source for these claims is problematic, when exactly Zionists decided that "an ethnic majority within a geographically continuous territory" was the only valid option is a question that has no clear answers, Hertzel clearly didn't espouse this view while by 1948 Ben Gurion clearly did, the common perception is that the language of ethnic cleansing became prominent around 1936, Morris himself tears into Pappe's claims about Ben Gurion promoting ethnic cleansing since the 1920s. Hertzl did use language like that, though not as explicitly. He said that the Zionists should focus on economically coercing all but the wealthiest Palestinians into leaving Palestine by denying them access to employment, buying their land from absentee landlords, etc. It's pretty clear that he had no intention of integrating the Zionists into Palestinian society, but rather to establish a parallel Jewish-only society. quote:Regardless, Morris himself is not a primary source and even the quote you provided does not provide clear answers as to the extent of the allegedly planned ethnic cleansing, it is hard to imagine that back in 1920 given the trickle of Jews immigrating into Palestine that the Yishuv had plans to fully ethnically cleanse greater Israel, again, by 1948 this seems like something that was obviously in their minds. Maybe not Greater Israel and maybe not as soon as it occurred, but the Zionists always(or at least beginning with their decision of Palestine as the site) intended to impose a state in Palestine in which Jews and only Jews ruled. Maybe they were intending something like French Algeria where the ruling class was in the numerical minority but the Arab majority was powerless and deliberately marginalized from the civic sphere, but such an arrangement would, assuming the Zionists could prevail militarily, inevitably lead to the ethnic cleansing of the natives. quote:It seems bizarre to suggest that the ethnic cleansing of palestine was in motion for decades prior to 1948 given that without the mass immigrations post 1939 there was absolutely no way the Jews could muster sufficient man power to pull anything like that off and that only through circumstances completely outside the control of the Yishuv it became possible by 1948. At best you could say that the Zionist had a dream of ethnically cleansing palestine, but to describe it as an 'ongoing project' seems far fetched, also worth noting is Morris' qualification of a 'hostile majority' which should raise the question of which came first, the ethnic cleansing rationale or the hostility that supposedly justifies it. It seems like you're very close to attempting to justify ethnic cleansing. Maybe the Zionist project was at one point just a pipe-dream but at no point were the Zionist settlers looking to treat the indigenous Palestinians as equals or to share power with them. It was very clear from the beginning that an exclusivist Jewish state was the end goal of the Zionist project and it's this, as well as the economic discrimination practiced by the Zionist colonists, that was primarily responsible for the Palestinians' hostility. It's also important to remember that European settlers, in similarly small numbers, had been able to subjugate large populations in Arabia, Africa and Asia through their military superiority and through tactics like "divide and conquer" so it's not as "bizarre" for the Zionists to believe in the feasibility of establishing a colony in Palestine as it might seem in retrospect.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:35
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Every time I bring a point to the table the people with the opposing point of view keep trying to lable me an anti-Semite, its very libelous and not even conducive to the conversation since every time I bring up a counter point to the common Israeli narrative of events immediately that stupid 'you're an anti-semite card' or 'oh you're a SECRET anti-semite' card gets pulled, it's really dumb. In any case, two points:- a) I have no clue what a khazar myth is in the first place, I was referring to the Europeans who carried out the ethnic cleansing against the palestinians. I can pull out for you the real names and home countries of the people who established Israel if you'd like. b) the fact that you're recognizing the people who were actively colonizing the land under the auspices of the British as 'Jews' and not 'Europeans' is very strange attempt at trying to paint the conversation differently, but it's a typical way of trying to deflect the argument, it doesn't change the fact that Israel is a European colonist project, nurtured and protected by the British (who actively crushed any attempt by the Palestinians to stop what they recognized early on as a colonist project), until they gained enough arms and numbers to carry out the Nakba. This has nothing to do with the Arab Jews who lived there before Theodor Herzl's ideologues came in guns blazing. You know, no matter how hard you scream anti-Semite it's not going to change the facts on the ground and the pages of history. I don't give a rats rear end in a top hat what religion people are, I care what they have done and continue to do to other people.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:36
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Al-Saqr posted:Every time I bring a point to the table the people with the opposing point of view keep trying to lable me an anti-Semite, its very libelous and not even conducive to the conversation since every time I bring up a counter point to the common Israeli narrative of events immediately that stupid 'you're an anti-semite card' or 'oh you're a SECRET anti-semite' card gets pulled, it's really dumb. Al-Saqr, did contemporary europeans view zionists as europeans, or jews? Did zionists view themselves as europeans, or jews? If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a duck, you might just be eating duck.
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Mar 7, 2015 15:42
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