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OwlBot 2000 posted:Are you saying that we should have had Poland, Germany, France, Hungary and Russia give Jewish people money and large swaths of land on which to build a Jewish State as payment for centuries of persecution and pogroms? I agree. That would have been much better than making an innocent third-party (Palestinians) pay the price for the crimes of Europeans. Right after they do so for Roma, sure, that'd be nice. Hell, I'd argue that the zionist institutions in Israel were an extention of the proto-state institutions that european pogroms sought to kill.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:52
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OwlBot 2000 posted:You're correct, I'll retract the comparison because the Jews of the time were not in a dominant position at the time. Most were poor and powerless, and came from atrocious conditions in Europe and elsewhere. At the same time, there was a well-known colonial project whose ultimate consequences were foreseen: the expulsion of Palestinians from their lands. If that's the case, the motivation for the policy can't be reduced to mere "antisemitism" or "racism", it was motivated by a very prescient fear that they would take over and expel the current residents. A fear which was actually completly baseless until some 40 years later when thanks to the rise of nazism and the holocaust the majority of the remaining european jewry fled to Palestine. That's some impressive prescience right there, but yeah I mean Herzel did say "we'll have a state for jews" and so naturally it only makes sense to ban Jews from
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Mar 7, 2015 21:52
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emanresu tnuocca posted:A fear which was actually completly baseless until some 40 years later when thanks to the rise of nazism and the holocaust the majority of the remaining european jewry fled to Palestine. That's some impressive prescience right there, but yeah I mean Herzel did say "we'll have a state for jews" and so naturally it only makes sense to ban Jews from The question to ask is, what did Herzl's state for Jews entail at the time when that statement was made? One need only look east to the Pale in order to see the contemporary Jewish state which Herzl envisioned for Israel, minus the pogroms.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:The expulsion of Jews from muslim states justifies a nakba on an equal level. Since a nakba on an equal level was not carried out against Arabs in Palestine, the nakba cannot be justified. Go gently caress yourself. Neither is justified. I do argue for reparations for the Jews because that made it easy to justify inhumanity on Israels part. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 21:56
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Yes MIGF just gently caress off, your useless filibustering contributes nothing to this thread.
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Mar 7, 2015 21:57
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emanresu tnuocca posted:A fear which was actually completely baseless until some 40 years later when thanks to the rise of nazism and the holocaust the majority of the remaining european jewry fled to Palestine. That's some impressive prescience right there, but yeah I mean Herzel did say "we'll have a state for jews" and so naturally it only makes sense to ban Jews from Is your claim that Palestinians weren't being forced from their homes as they were sold out from under them, or that these actions weren't violent? This process didn't start with the Nakba, it only culminated in it. e: Take a look at the changes in Palestine's demographics from the beginning of Zionism to the Nakba. Miltank fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 22:02
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Miltank posted:Is your claim that Palestinians weren't being forced from their homes as they were sold out from under them, or that these actions weren't violent? This process didn't start with the Nakba, it only culminated in it. Palestinians squated land from other Palestinians or failed to maintain their titles, were surprised that some jews would have the audacity to pursue their human rights to property; refuse to move on with life and adapt to changed circumstances, engender the creation of novel institutions for maintaining community organization, pursuing human development, and guaranteeing peaceful transitions of political order, within an acceptable framework that did not involve 'seize Jewish property and redistribute to Arabs'
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Mar 7, 2015 22:10
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I must admit that I got a nice chuckle out of "human rights to property"
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Mar 7, 2015 22:14
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Miltank posted:Is your claim that Palestinians weren't being forced from their homes as they were sold out from under them, or that these actions weren't violent? This process didn't start with the Nakba, it only culminated in it. I'm waiting for you demonstrate that it was a widespread phenomena that actually lead to the disenfranchisement of the Palestinian lower classes, it would also be nice if you could demonstrate that this was truly a phenomena that was uniquely perpetrated by Zionist jews. The actual demographics of Palestine suggest that until the mass ethnic cleansing of 1948 the region experienced rapid natural growth in population, moreover it is worth noting that as of 1948 the percentage of lands owned by the Yishuv was still fractional and indeed many of those lands were not previously populated and nor were the arab populations in close vicinity to those lands expelled. It seems to me like the Nakba was not actually the culmination of a 70 year long process at all but rather a military operation that was planned during the latter stages of the mandatory administration. As I said, I would appreciate links to source that demonstrate otherwise. Miltank posted:e: Take a look at the changes in Palestine's demographics from the beginning of Zionism to the Nakba. I understand that only three censuses were taken during the mandatory period, here's the population distribution from 1945 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Palestine_Distribution_of_Population_1947_UN_map_no_93(b).jpeg , I think there should also be one from 1921 and another from 1931 but I can't find them for some reason, if you can find the other ones I'd love to see 'em, cause this one is obviously after a rather massive jewish immigration wave. v fixed emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 22:27
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Your link is broke. E: I'm really enjoying this discussion, but I'm in a library putting off research for a paper so I have to take a break. I will make a post after I get home and read up a little bit on the subject, because it has honestly been a while since I've looked at it. I'll be able to post some population figures from the 19th century which iirc help to illustrate the sort of demographic pressure that the Palestinians felt themselves under. Miltank fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 22:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:it's not about who you criticize or not, it's about whether you think that the only way to restore balance to the force is to destroy Israel and kill a lot of murderous emanresu tnuocca posted:
emanresu tnuocca posted:Hah yes the khazar invaders emanresu tnuocca posted:"Death to Israel" emanresu tnuocca posted:I dunno, I guess germans just wanting to make germany judenrein was also not racist, after all, the jews did commit the Nakba. emanresu tnuocca posted:but yeah I mean Herzel did say "we'll have a state for jews" and so naturally it only makes sense to ban Jews from Man, you're usually a good poster (I actually really appreciate what you have to say about Israeli politics), but there is plenty real ignorance and bigotry on the forums. Why do you have to keep putting hateful words in people's mouths?
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Mar 7, 2015 22:40
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Al Saqr is an rear end and like half of those posts are just me referring to that lest it be forgotten behind his "I'm just criticizing Israel is all" facade, the rest are kinda just jokes? Sorry though, I'll try to tone it down and keep things civil, I am after all just another shitposter and sometimes get emotional about this poo poo.
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Mar 7, 2015 22:44
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Fair enough. Thanks.
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Mar 7, 2015 22:58
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V. Illych L. posted:hm yes let us involve even more touchy parts that have to give concessions, this will surely be a great success It has the virtue of being totally unachievable, which means the Israelis will surely include it at some point.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:10
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Kajeesus posted:Is the premise that if modern Jews were Jews or Israelites or whatever the correct heritage is, they'd then be entitled to the land of Israel? I doubt anyone in this thread genuinely cares who modern Jews descended from. Do you think the reason Italians aren't pressing for their 208 CE borders is because they aren't the 'legitimate' ethnic heirs to the Romans?
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Mar 7, 2015 23:28
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420 Gank Mid posted:Do you think the reason Italians aren't pressing for their 208 CE borders is because they aren't the 'legitimate' ethnic heirs to the Romans? I think its because they tried doing so about 80 years ago. However, their hierarchical and patriarchal culture stiffled innovation and prevented battlefield success. Unless Israel, which has enjoyed military success due to its adaptable institutional structures.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:31
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So this was kinda super goddamn important:Main Paineframe posted:Kinda interesting that the major parties are so determined to make things about Palestine and foreign affairs - and thereby avoid the much more difficult domestic issues. quote:Amid reports that President Barack Obama plans to utilize the final 20 months of his term in office to push through a major diplomatic initiative in the Israeli-Palestinian sphere, officials in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud party on Friday privately expressed glee over the prospect.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:35
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Al Saqr is an rear end and like half of those posts are just me referring to that lest it be forgotten behind his "I'm just criticizing Israel is all" facade, the rest are kinda just jokes? Sorry though, I'll try to tone it down and keep things civil, I am after all just another shitposter and sometimes get emotional about this poo poo. I've never seen him post anything I'd consider anti-semitic, and I see you accusing him of it in tons of posts that presented reasonable arguments, so how about instead of willfully misinterpreting his posts by attaching silly Khazar conspiracy theories to them, you actually start addressing his points? Because "Blah blah, gently caress you, anti-semite" isn't an argument.
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Mar 7, 2015 23:39
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Volkerball posted:I've never seen him post anything I'd consider anti-semitic, and I see you accusing him of it in tons of posts that presented reasonable arguments, so how about instead of willfully misinterpreting his posts by attaching silly Khazar conspiracy theories to them, you actually start addressing his points? Because "Blah blah, gently caress you, anti-semite" isn't an argument. While it's surely great that you do not consider posts which label every random Israeli as a murderer to be antisemitic I have explained why I do consider it such and why I'm not impressed by the "I literally only hate with a burning personal hatred Jews who also happen to be Israelis" line of the defense, In the meanwhile I haven't seen him raise a single argument that wasn't regurgitated numerous times in this thread already, usually in a less 'literally frothing at the mouth' manner. His weird "european russians" posts (which at the very least demonstrates a deep lack of knowledge over 'where the Jews who were in Palestine back in 1948' actually came from) is a barely tangentially related response to a clear bait by one of this thread's most prominent right wing trolls, I'd also note that he could have made exactly the same points without inserting that weird line which is why I took the liberty to infer what that line was actually meant to imply. Again, you might not consider personal hatred toward every single jewish Israeli to be indicative of antisemitism, I do.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:02
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Volkerball posted:I've never seen him post anything I'd consider anti-semitic, and I see you accusing him of it in tons of posts that presented reasonable arguments, so how about instead of willfully misinterpreting his posts by attaching silly Khazar conspiracy theories to them, you actually start addressing his points? Because "Blah blah, gently caress you, anti-semite" isn't an argument. Al-Saqr posted:God, why do murderous racist shitheads like that horse face (who probably will end up helping to kill miss lebanons family) keep thinking that their victims will want to be friends with them? Al-Saqr posted:Oh yeah, I remember you, you're that crazy right wing nut. It's good that you're still making things up btw. I don't ever recall defending putin or bashar al assad (who, by the way, tortured and killed and one of my dearest friends in real life), if you ever read anything I wrote I have been always been a very simple political advocate of human rights, freedom and democracy, because Israel's makeup, actions, ideology and behavior is antithetical to its very core to each of those tenants and has met out terrorism, ethnic cleansing and destruction left and right that I have a very unfavorable view of it. In re: a photo between friends at the Miss Universe competition. No anti-semitism there, calling a Jewish women horse-faced and psychotic because she had the audacity to be friends with a muslim. Those wacky Jews, just waiting for you to turn your back so they can murder your family! 
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Mar 8, 2015 00:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think its because they tried doing so about 80 years ago.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:16
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emanresu tnuocca posted:While it's surely great that you do not consider posts which label every random Israeli as a murderer to be antisemitic I have explained why I do consider it such and why I'm not impressed by the "I literally only hate with a burning personal hatred Jews who also happen to be Israelis" line of the defense, In the meanwhile I haven't seen him raise a single argument that wasn't regurgitated numerous times in this thread already, usually in a less 'literally frothing at the mouth' manner. He didn't say they were European Russians. He said they were refugees from European-Russian ethnic cleansing, which is true to a large degree. There were 80,000 Jews in Palestine in 1918, 600,000 in 1948, and 1.2 million in 1951 after the establishment of the state saw the law of return in 1950. The change from 1918 to '48 is largely immigration, and the changes after that are almost entirely immigration. Not taking into account how many people have immigrated there throughout the rest of the 50's until today. Saying the Israeli state was founded by immigrants and occupiers is not inaccurate, and that was the point of that blurb you found so offensive. Of course, that was over 50 years ago, so it's all moot now. My Imaginary GF posted:In re: a photo between friends at the Miss Universe competition. No anti-semitism there, calling a Jewish women horse-faced and psychotic because she had the audacity to be friends with a muslim. Those wacky Jews, just waiting for you to turn your back so they can murder your family! They weren't friends. The Israeli girl kept trying to get a picture with the Lebanese girl, and the Lebanese girl kept refusing. So Israeli girl photobombed her, and the Lebanese girl went public about it. It was wrong on Israeli girls part. al-Saqr went overboard for sure, but he apologized for the personal attacks, and for the most part, his posts are reasonable. Hardly worth responding to all his posts with "shut up al-Saqr you dumb idiot bitch" like how we treat you.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:39
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Lebanese girls own btw
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Mar 8, 2015 00:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:In re: a photo between friends at the Miss Universe competition. No anti-semitism there, calling a Jewish women horse-faced and psychotic because she had the audacity to be friends with a muslim. Those wacky Jews, just waiting for you to turn your back so they can murder your family! Are you going to stop being a pussy any time soon and acknowledge that you advocated religious discrimination and apartheid as a valid policy and thus have no leg to stand on when calling others racist, you giant hypocrite coward?
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Mar 8, 2015 00:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:In re: a photo between friends at the Miss Universe competition. No anti-semitism there, calling a Jewish women horse-faced and psychotic because she had the audacity to be friends with a muslim. Those wacky Jews, just waiting for you to turn your back so they can murder your family! Is "horseface" anti-semitic now?
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Mar 8, 2015 00:43
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Volkerball posted:Lebanese girls own btw Yes, too bad the existance of individuals with al-Saqr's mindset on Jewish-Muslim amity will result in individuals disowning friendships so that they aren't killed. I knew a Pakistani and Israeli girl in grad school who were BFFs who'd go drinking and dancing together every weekend and always pair up for projects. Unfortunately, someone noticed this, and after some social media threats, the Pakistani girl had to disown her friendship to avoid her family being targeted in Pakistan. Totally understandable, still bffs, no longer able to party together like they used to. It happens. SedanChair posted:Is "horseface" anti-semitic now? What makes her "horsefaced"? Is it because she's Jewish? If so, yes, the use of a slur to insult an individual's looks based upon ethnic stereotypes is a racist expression.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:What makes her "horsefaced"? Is it because she's Jewish? That would be a ridiculous inference, "horseface" is a common term for an ugly person that has no connection to anti-semitism. Her behavior made her ugly. If anything it's slightly misogynist.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm waiting for you demonstrate that it was a widespread phenomena that actually lead to the disenfranchisement of the Palestinian lower classes, it would also be nice if you could demonstrate that this was truly a phenomena that was uniquely perpetrated by Zionist jews. The actual demographics of Palestine suggest that until the mass ethnic cleansing of 1948 the region experienced rapid natural growth in population, moreover it is worth noting that as of 1948 the percentage of lands owned by the Yishuv was still fractional and indeed many of those lands were not previously populated and nor were the arab populations in close vicinity to those lands expelled. A HIstory of the Modern Middle East posted:The Zionist objective was to build up the Jewish population of the mandate through unrestricted immigration so as to have a credible claim to the existance of a national home. It was also considered necessary to acquire as much cultivable land as possible. In pursuit of these twin objectives, Zionism resembled a projecvt of settler colonialism undertaken at the expense of the local Arab population. The Arabs of Palestine recognized that the goals of Zionism represented a threat to their existence, and they opposed them by attempting to negotiate Britain to restrict immigration and land transfers; when that tactic failed, they turned to armed revolt. emanresu tnuocca posted:I understand that only three censuses were taken during the mandatory period, here's the population distribution from 1945 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Palestine_Distribution_of_Population_1947_UN_map_no_93(b).jpeg , I think there should also be one from 1921 and another from 1931 but I can't find them for some reason, if you can find the other ones I'd love to see 'em, cause this one is obviously after a rather massive jewish immigration wave. paraphrasing posted:From 1919 to 1923 30,000 immigrants arrived from Eastern Europe  The book also notes that between 1922 and 1936 the Jewish population increased from 93,000 to 382,000 Miltank fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Mar 8, 2015 |
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Mar 8, 2015 00:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, too bad the existance of individuals with al-Saqr's mindset on Jewish-Muslim amity will result in individuals disowning friendships so that they aren't killed. I know it's not impossible for that to happen, and that's what was stupid about al-Saqr's post. But these two girls probably met a couple days before the picture, if that. Hardly "Out in the Dark." quote:What makes her "horsefaced"? Is it because she's Jewish? If so, yes, the use of a slur to insult an individual's looks based upon ethnic stereotypes is a racist expression. did you look at her. since when is horsefaced an anti-semitic slur?
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Mar 8, 2015 00:55
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I'm assuming she is the one in the picture who has what is commonly referred to as a "horse face"?
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Mar 8, 2015 00:56
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It's interesting how simply making the allegation of anti-semitism over and over again makes some people believe it.
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Mar 8, 2015 00:57
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Slovenia's girl is even more of a horse face. Seriously, that's the best you can do? That's embarrassing. Polands crown for best Eastern European girls is under no threat.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:01
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Volkerball posted:Slovenia's girl is even more of a horse face. Seriously, that's the best you can do? That's embarrassing. Polands crown for best Eastern European girls is under no threat. Oh poo poo you are right, I didn't see the sashes and was assuming he meant the Slovenia girl.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, too bad the existance of individuals with al-Saqr's mindset on Jewish-Muslim amity will result in individuals disowning friendships so that they aren't killed. But it's ok to legally discriminate someone because of their race and religion?
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Mar 8, 2015 01:10
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http://bungalow-babe.blogspot.com/2007/04/horse-faced-jewish-women-are-new-nappy.html this blog is the only mention I can find of "horse faced" being an anti-semitic slur.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:15
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DarkCrawler posted:But it's ok to legally discriminate someone because of their race and religion? Race and religion? With religion, its an acceptable practice for state institutions to incentivize participation in the state religion. Would you call it discrimination that the Sovreign of Vatican State must be Catholic, or that the Head of the Commonwealth can only belong to the Church of England? In the case of individuals demanding that the "right of return" apply to non-Jews, there is a process for non-Jews to immigrate to Israel. Is the complaint with the process, or that Israel is a Jewish state? Migration to Israel would be, for most, a choice; for plenty of Israeli Jews, there wasn't a choice to migrate.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:20
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My Imaginary GF posted:Race and religion? With religion, its an acceptable practice for state institutions to incentivize participation in the state religion. Would you call it discrimination that the Sovreign of Vatican State must be Catholic, or that the Head of the Commonwealth can only belong to the Church of England? It's not actually an acceptable practice when the civil rights are different depending on what your religion is. Especially when the state has native people who don't espouse that religion. None of the examples you said are equivalent to giving one portion of natives less rights then others, they are religious hierarchical positions. Again MIGF, please explain why do you think religious and racial discrimination between native citizens is OK. Or do you think there are no atheist Jews in Israel? Why do you keep denying that "Jewish" can be an ethnicity as well? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Mar 8, 2015 |
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Mar 8, 2015 01:26
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emanresu tnuocca posted:To clarify, I am not actually of the opinion that atrocities travel back in time and retroactively justify other atrocities. I think MIGF was somewhat confused about that one.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:36
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DarkCrawler posted:It's not actually an acceptable practice when the civil rights are different depending on what your religion is. Especially when the state has native people who don't espouse that religion. None of the examples you said are equivalent to giving one portion of natives less rights then others, they are religious hierarchical positions. I had a longer post and lost it while looking for citations. Let's use the case of polygamy in Israel. Is it OK for Israel to outlaw polygamy, even though it discriminates against some religious, racial, and ethnic groups? Of loving course; if you want to live in a state, you have to give up a bit of freedom in order to adhere to that state's social contract. If you refuse to adhere to that state's social contract, go somewhere else or organize to change the social contract while remaining in accord with the state's sovreign right to rule by law.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:41
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I never said 'horsefaced' was antisemitic, I said that the automatic labeling of 'any random Israeli' (i.e Doron Matalon, some model he knows absolutely nothing about) as a murderer reeks of bigotry and anti-semitism, coming from a person with his track record of weird misogynistic comments directed particularly at Israeli women I do not feel like making any excuses for him. Now for actually interesting posts: Miltank posted:My lecture notes say that by the middle of the 1930s ~30% of Arab peasants were landless. Palestinians were also taxed more heavily under the british at this time than they were under the Ottomans which when combined with Zionist land transfers and an indifferent political elite led to outbreaks of violence against Jews, British, and also the urban notables. Interesting. I found this also: http://www.newjerseysolidarity.org/resources/kanafani/kanafani4c.html which seems to be a rather thorough review, it seems odd though that for the focus given to the effects of the Zionist invasion this particular paragraph receives such little focus: quote:On the other hand, the class that was known as the "effendi class" and lived in the town, derived their income from agricultural land rented to peasants and from interests on loans to peasants. (The Effendis did not begin to invest in industry until the forties.) This form of exploitation was by far more ruinous to the peasants than Zionist colonization. I will want to review some of the primary sources for that pamphlet at some point but for the moment it seems sufficiently researched, there is no doubt that the JNF evicted a portion of the palestinian peasantry from their lands and that this contributed a lot to the rising tensions, however it's worth noting that the zionists themselves were not the only ones complicit in this process of land appropriation and that they were in many ways taking advantage of the broken rear end class system left in place by the Ottomans being further broken down by the brits, it does seem to me though that Palestine was undergoing a lot of changes that contributed to making life worse for the Palestinian lower classes that were not all fair to lay upon the zionist advent, for instance, the rapid population growth and the fact that the majority of lands were in the first place not owned by the peasants themselves. As to our original disagreement as far as 'the initiation of hostilities' were concerned, I do agree that there was definitely cause for anger against the zionists by the time the brits started running the show, this does not prove either way that the zionists were indeed constantly working on a masterplan for the ethnic cleansing of the entirety of mandatory palestine though and given the actual state of things at the eve of the nakba I still believe that the nakba can plausibly be viewed as born out of opportunism rather than of a historical plan laid out back in the late 19th century. Anyway it's late and I'm starting to feel like this post is barely coherent, I'll see if I have anything more meaningful to say tomorrow.
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Mar 8, 2015 01:42
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