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The Insect Court posted:My point, which you seem understandably reluctant to address, is that certain people seem to have a visceral loathing for Israel that far exceeds their disapproval of ISIS.. Pretty sure I haven't seen any serious suggestion that we carry out airstrikes on Israelis, which many people have supported against ISIS. And nearly everyone condemned the praise for King Abdullah when Obama and the media called him a "reformer" instead of a tyrant, and everyone agrees Boko Haram need to be destroyed. What makes you angry is that people do hold Israel to a reasonable standard that's consistent with their view of other bad states, when you think Israel should get a pass because they call themselves "the only democracy (that denies rights to 4.7 million)".
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Mar 8, 2015 23:22
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you aren't a Jew and wish to be regarded as a Jew, the simplest solution is to become a Jew. The process for an individual to become a Jew applies to all groups, thus making your example a false comparison. Well hell maybe all the Jews should just convert to stymie anti-Semitism! (nb I'm even less serious than Herzl)
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Mar 9, 2015 12:41
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Haha, Avigdor Liberman just presented his demands from any possible government that would like to have the support of Yisrael Beitenu and their mighty 5 seats following the elections, the terms are as following: 1. Death penalty for terrorists who've been found guilty of murdering Israeli citizens 2. Every 16 year old must sign a declaration of loyalty to the 'symbols of the Israeli state' as a prerequisite for receiving an ID card - these symbols include the national anthem, the flag and the declaration of independence. (one must wonder how many kahanists will be considered disloyal when they refuse to swear an oath to the declaration of independence that describes Israel as a democratic state). 3. Preferential treatment in employment and education to IDF and national service veterans 4. Revoking Haredi privileges as far as enslitment to the IDF or national service are concerned 5. Revoking the ability of the supreme court to overturn Knesset and government legislation. It's cool that he's trying his hardest to antagonize as much of the Israeli public as possible and to be an as big of an international embarrassment as possible, I will personally be very giddy if he gets less than 4 seats in the elections and is blissfully removed from Israeli politics for a year or two.
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Mar 9, 2015 12:44
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emanresu tnuocca posted:5. Revoking the ability of the supreme court to overturn Knesset and government legislation. Then what's the point of the Supreme Court, if it's no longer supreme?
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Mar 9, 2015 15:26
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emanresu tnuocca posted:5. Revoking the ability of the supreme court to overturn Knesset and government legislation. Uuuh, so basically he wants to get rid of the idea of rights that are protected from parliamentary/democratic whims?
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Mar 9, 2015 17:00
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Anyone know the deal with Israel Prize in Literature? I saw Netanyahu fired two of the judges.
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Mar 9, 2015 17:41
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"I'm not racist, I just think Israel has a right to kill those filthy arabs." -Ever loving person on my Facebook. 
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Mar 9, 2015 18:54
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Xandu posted:Anyone know the deal with Israel Prize in Literature? I saw Netanyahu fired two of the judges. He said it was an 'anti-Zionist' institution and that it was high-time only cool and loyal zionists got to to decide who gets the award, he didn't actually fire any judges he disqualified two candidates which in turn got many nominees to disqualify themselves from the competition, Weinstein than declared that the prime minister actually doesn't have the authority to disqualify judges from the committee but it was already too late by that point and the prize will not be handed out this year iirc.
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Mar 9, 2015 19:09
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Heavy neutrino posted:Uuuh, so basically he wants to get rid of the idea of rights that are protected from parliamentary/democratic whims? More or less, yeah. In the current polticial minefield, the Israeli Supreme Court functions as a strong force for secularism and equal rights, striking down large amounts of religious-centric or overtly racist law from the various wild right-wingers. It's not really surprising that the extreme right is getting madder and madder at the constant foilings of their attempts to enshrine Haredi practices in law and disenfranchise various minorities.
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Mar 9, 2015 19:36
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Israeli Supreme Court is the only reason Arab parties have even been able to run in the past, the Parliament having struck them down as having denied Israel as the state of the Jewish people.
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Mar 9, 2015 22:34
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Max Fischer at Vox seems to think that this isn't going to happen, as Netanyahu has all but declared the two-state solution dead to get the right-wing vote. To be honest with how loving sliced up and settled the West Bank is, and how much of it is already under Israeli control, the two-state solution has been almost impossible for years now anyway. Main Paineframe posted:More or less, yeah. In the current political minefield, the Israeli Supreme Court functions as a strong force for secularism and equal rights, striking down large amounts of religious-centric or overtly racist law from the various wild right-wingers. It's not really surprising that the extreme right is getting madder and madder at the constant foilings of their attempts to enshrine Haredi practices in law and disenfranchise various minorities.
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Mar 10, 2015 00:03
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fade5 posted:Well then I guess I'll eventually welcome and give my support the new singular state of Israel. You guys had the chance to do the easier two-state way, now you get to go the more difficult one-state way. Good loving luck, and try to start treating the Palestinians better than we did the Native Americans. Hint - a Netanyahu-proposed one-state solution does not mean reaching out to Palestinians, but ethnically cleansing them even more thoroughly. We may well see a dent getting put in that enormous Palestinian population growth soon.
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Mar 10, 2015 00:55
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Words coming out of Netanyahu's mouth don't mean anything, doubly so when spoken before the elections. Regardless if anything Netanyahu's rejection of his own 2009 statements should most naturally be interpreted as a commitment to keep the status-quo going for as long as possible.
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Mar 10, 2015 01:03
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Darth Walrus posted:Hint - a Netanyahu-proposed one-state solution does not mean reaching out to Palestinians, but ethnically cleansing them even more thoroughly. We may well see a dent getting put in that enormous Palestinian population growth soon. emanresu tnuocca posted:Words coming out of Netanyahu's mouth don't mean anything, doubly so when spoken before the elections. Regardless if anything Netanyahu's rejection of his own 2009 statements should most naturally be interpreted as a commitment to keep the status-quo going for as long as possible. I'm under no illusions that a one-state solution will happen peacefully. There will be more poo poo like Pillar of But eventually integration will happen, and the process towards a one-state solution is starting faster than pretty much anyone thought thanks to Bibi's little speech. I will say that a two-state solution might also happen, but I don't know if Israel has the stomach to actually tell the settlers in the West Bank to get the gently caress out, and that's (one of) the biggest sticking point(s) to a two-state solution. If Israel finds the balls to do that, then I'll happily eat my words and look forward to the state of Israel and the state of Palestine, but I just don't see Israel being willing to give up all that land and all those resources. fade5 fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 01:45
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There are always a lot of those sorts of replies and they don't really seem to be grounded in reality. Hillary Clinton is the favorite to be the next president and she will give Israel a blank check. Plus, centrist governments don't really have different records than Likud governments on substance, they just get much more of a pass from the rest of the world. You know, the Obama principle.
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Mar 10, 2015 01:53
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Declaring the two-state solution dead is making GBS threads all over the vision that my beloved risked getting himself assassinated for - he only ever got to lay the groundwork, which wasn't his fault at all, but it was a massive step and left no doubt that his heart was totally in it. There is no other feasible solution but the split state. There are lots of other possible solutions, many of which would be ethically preferable, but they don't have a chance of happening.
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Mar 10, 2015 02:29
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I'll never let the world forget him! Never!!
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Mar 10, 2015 02:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:There are always a lot of those sorts of replies and they don't really seem to be grounded in reality. Hillary Clinton is the favorite to be the next president and she will give Israel a blank check. Plus, centrist governments don't really have different records than Likud governments on substance, they just get much more of a pass from the rest of the world. You know, the Obama principle. Nobody actually thinks its going to happen in the next few years. It's going to happen when the generations who don't give a poo poo about Israel get to power in the US, by which time it's going to be really hard to have two states. We'll all probably be like 60 then.
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Mar 10, 2015 02:37
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Avshalom posted:Declaring the two-state solution dead is making GBS threads all over the vision that my beloved risked getting himself assassinated for - he only ever got to lay the groundwork, which wasn't his fault at all, but it was a massive step and left no doubt that his heart was totally in it. There is no other feasible solution but the split state. There are lots of other possible solutions, many of which would be ethically preferable, but they don't have a chance of happening. I just don't see how it's really possible when the West Bank looks like this:  How the hell do you create a Palestinian state out of that? There's basically no Palestinian land that's contiguous in the West Bank, there's walls and checkpoints everywhere, absolutely no Palestinian access to the Dead Sea, Israeli settlements have literally cut the West Bank in half, and Israel controls basically the entire contiguous eastern 1/3 of the West Bank with the exception of Jericho. DarkCrawler posted:Nobody actually thinks its going to happen in the next few years. It's going to happen when the generations who don't give a poo poo about Israel get to power in the US, by which time it's going to be really hard to have two states. We'll all probably be like 60 then.
fade5 fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 03:03
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You withdraw out of Israeli settlements and give them back - not all of them, but enough to create a contiguous state with sea access and enough land for its population to live on and run an economy with. But there was only man who was man enough to drive Israelis out of their settlements with absolutely no regard for his reputation or personal safety. Only one man! 
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Mar 10, 2015 03:05
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Avshalom posted:You withdraw out of Israeli settlements and give them back - not all of them, but enough to create a contiguous state with sea access and enough land for its population to live on and run an economy with. But there was only man who was man enough to drive Israelis out of their settlements with absolutely no regard for his reputation or personal safety. Only one man! The difference between Gaza and West Bank is the difference between night and day. Nine thousand settlers removed isn't going to be enough now, much less in how many decades it takes for the world to force Israel on the table. Also Beloved Arik just basically shifted the settlers to West Bank (total number of settlers grew that year) so 
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Mar 10, 2015 03:14
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And even a tiny amount of what needs to be done never will now that the saviour of the middle east is lost to us.
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Mar 10, 2015 03:16
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What is keeping Israel from pulling a "trail of tears" and expelling all the Palestinians in the West Bank to the Gaza Strip?
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Mar 10, 2015 03:19
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RandomPauI posted:What is keeping Israel from pulling a "trail of tears" and expelling all the Palestinians in the West Bank to the Gaza Strip? Massive international backlash which would destroy their economy, huge military conflict that would kill tens of thousands of them at the very least? That would be like both intifadas put together times 100.
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Mar 10, 2015 03:33
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RandomPauI posted:What is keeping Israel from pulling a "trail of tears" and expelling all the Palestinians in the West Bank to the Gaza Strip? There's a lot of West Bank Palestinians, most of the routes they would take go through heavily populated Israeli areas, and Gaza is already one of the densest populated areas in the world.
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Mar 10, 2015 03:33
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computer parts posted:There's a lot of West Bank Palestinians, most of the routes they would take go through heavily populated Israeli areas, and Gaza is already one of the densest populated areas in the world. Yeah, the logistics don't pan out. I mean if they could do it they would have done it already.
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Mar 10, 2015 03:39
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DarkCrawler posted:The difference between Gaza and West Bank is the difference between night and day. Nine thousand settlers removed isn't going to be enough now, much less in how many decades it takes for the world to force Israel on the table. Also Beloved Arik just basically shifted the settlers to West Bank (total number of settlers grew that year) so Why remove settlements---the only thing withdrawing from Gaza has done is bring the two-state solution to the verge of death.
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Mar 10, 2015 05:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:Why remove settlements---the only thing withdrawing from Gaza has done is bring the two-state solution to the verge of death. It wasn't much of a withdrawal.
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Mar 10, 2015 05:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:Why remove settlements---the only thing withdrawing from Gaza has done is bring the two-state solution to the verge of death. Oh good, you're back, you want to confirm that you think apartheid is OK as long as it is done through proper processes? And you're pro settlement as well, I see!
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Mar 10, 2015 06:18
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:It wasn't much of a withdrawal. 
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Mar 10, 2015 07:38
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It isn't even referred to as a withdrawal it was a 'disengagement' and it should be understood as the removal of Israeli civilians and ground forces from the interior of the Gaza strip, it was not done for the benefit of the citizens of Gaza it was done to reduce the amount of IDF casualties, an objective which was achieved with considerable success. In the 5 years prior to the disengagement 128 Israelis ( 89 soldiers and 39 civilians) were killed in Gaza and the border towns, since 2005 there have been 107 Israeli casualties, about 70% of which died during protective edge (vast majority being soldiers). An analysis of Palestinian casualty rates before/after the disengagement will skew a lot differently obviously though as I'm arguing, this was never actually one of the actual objectives leading to this policy, certainly not on Sharon's behalf. Framing the disengagement as a 'boon' being granted by the Israelis to Palestinians is already a propagandistic way to look at it which does not hold up in the face of scrutiny, for all intents and purposes the ground occupation of Gaza has become untenable as far as the IDF was concerned due to the intensification in Guerrilla warfare within the strip, it was a decision borne out of Israeli 'security rationale'.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:54
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Regardless as for MIGF's actual (asinine) point as for the disengagement effectively killing the prospects of a two state solution this is simply bullshit, the major obstacles facing any possible two state solution have always been the presence of settlers in territories with a majority palestinian population and the lack of territorial contingency between the west bank and gaza, neither of these 'parameters' have been altered by the disengagement from Gaza, if he's arguing that the two state solution is more dead now than it was in 2005 due to the Israeli citizenry being less inclined to support further withdrawals this is also bullshit cause the biggest change in Israeli perceptions ought to be attributed to the second intifada (Sharon visiting the temple mount in 2000 says hi).
emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 14:06
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More Netanyahu poll numbers please. I wish I had paid more attention in yeshiva so I could Google them in Hebrew myself.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:15
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I posted this a few (dozens of) pages ago:emanresu tnuocca posted:According to these guys who analyzed previous election polls and claim to have come up with a way to get more accurate predictions based on consistent errors made by certain pollsters the joint arab party is going to be the 3rd largest party with 14 seats, 1 more than bennet and twice as many as liberman. Likud and Avoda tied for first at 24. The numbers in the gray row appearing above the party names is an average of the last 8 polls. Below that you can see the results of specific polls and when they were taken https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13XIAgbVk_c2Zxxa5xsR0EJFb6W9HMQpAjBImtFxZdxo/edit#gid=147760323 this link should be to the sheet without compensating for 'consistent polling errors'
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Mar 10, 2015 14:28
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Avshalom posted:Declaring the two-state solution dead is making GBS threads all over the vision that my beloved risked getting himself assassinated for - he only ever got to lay the groundwork, which wasn't his fault at all, but it was a massive step and left no doubt that his heart was totally in it. There is no other feasible solution but the split state. There are lots of other possible solutions, many of which would be ethically preferable, but they don't have a chance of happening. Did somebody try to assassinate Arik other than the snacks he kept in his limo?
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Mar 10, 2015 15:22
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Who needs disengagement? Just put the Israeli settlements under Palestinian rule, since they're in Palestinian territory, and allow the residents to move back to Israel if they choose. There's no particular reason to require all the land stolen, confiscated, or unilaterally declared "Israeli-only" by Israelis to stay under Israeli control, other than the fact that Israel has enough diplomatic advantage to demand that. Just because they've occupied it or built checkpoints on it doesn't mean they get to keep it forever, unless they can bully the PA into signing an agreement handing it over. Of course, there's the fears that a Palestinian government might not treat Israeli settlers too well...but it's not like Israeli authorities have exactly been kind to Palestinians either, even in areas which are mutually agreed by both sides to be under Palestinian control. Considering the illegality of many of the settlements, the PA would be perfectly within their rights to expel many of the settlers from the stolen land they live on, but the settlers have no one but themselves (and the Israeli policies that encouraged settlement) to blame for that. Of course, that's idealistic. In the real world, any significant change in the settlement policy would lead to massive violent outbreaks. Evicting the settlers would lead to civil war, transitioning the settlements to Palestinian control would lead to armed settler revolts that would almost certainly lead to civil war in the West Bank and Israel annexing the settlements by force, and openly claiming large portions of the West Bank or deporting Palestinians or anything like that would trigger Super Intifada 3. And any one of those options would stir up both Israeli and Palestinian terrorist groups and cause massive political upheaval. It's an impossible situation with no easy outs for Israel, and I'd almost be sympathetic if they hadn't caused the problems and gotten themselves into this situation in the first place. The least risky thing Israel can do is continue with the current settlement policy, but that's just kicking the torch down the road, and this road is lined with fuses leading to various powder kegs - the domestic social and political strife in Israel, the building anger and despair of various Palestinian groups, and even the slowly weakening patience of Europe. It's a noose around Israel's neck - no matter which direction they jump, poo poo will get real bad real fast.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:23
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I'm pretty optimistic about these poll numbers Granted Haaretz might be painting a rosier picture for the Left than it should, but I'm seeing (a) Zionist Union beating Likud, (b) Joint List beating Habayit Hayehudi, and (c) the next biggest parties being Yesh Atid and Kulanu. I'm trying to make it a cautious optimism, but I'm still feeling pretty good about the left's chances.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:26
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Liberman's at it again: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4635551,00.html quote:After Palestinian Authority warns Israeli foreign minister of potential ICC suit, Lieberman says they will 'receive answer when I am defense minister.' I don't even.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Framing the disengagement as a 'boon' being granted by the Israelis to Palestinians is already a propagandistic way to look at it which does not hold up in the face of scrutiny, for all intents and purposes the ground occupation of Gaza has become untenable as far as the IDF was concerned due to the intensification in Guerrilla warfare within the strip, it was a decision borne out of Israeli 'security rationale'.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Liberman's at it again: Ah yes the famous, totally not war criminal response of 'bring a suit against me, I'll loving murder you'.
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Mar 10, 2015 23:45
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