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I think a significant portion of the left needs their leader to speak up before they get on board though. For instance my uncle is a huge lefty but often has his issues completely backwards. Like he hates the things right to work does, but thought that actually was in states without right to work laws. And didn't understand that the President was trying to negotiate a deal with Iran where they'd have to stop nuclear development, because the President just never speaks up on these things.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:26
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Gravel Gravy posted:What are you even on about? The letter happened because they were normalizing relations... After spreading nuke rumors, after sanctions, after Bibi... It's the timing. What can we expect from GOP idiots when the party with executive power doesn't even know what the gently caress it is doing? evilweasel posted:Unless you agree that Congress should be negotiating instead of the President (which is generally a minority view even among the party out of power) they've had the Clinton years and the Obama years, not "decades". And what you're missing is that Iranian hardliners really don't like the United States. It takes two parties to have peaceful relations and the Iranian government has not been all that interested. They're still not, really, they're negotiating a specific trade of nuclear inspections for sanctions relief but they don't trust us or like us much no matter what the negotiations are at. Are you seriously saying that it is Iranian hardliners who are at fault over hazy relations? It is obvious the US has the power and control over negotiations. Relations could be peaceful and normal if not for sanctions imposed by the Obama administration. If Obama and the Dems had been straightforward after Bush's axis of evil shenanigans and worked towards peaceful relations we would be there. Instead they allowed a quasi-rivalry to exist which leads to Billy Bobs thinking they can create their own foreign policy.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:28
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zoux posted:Sane third parties like the NY Post? It is a partisan issue, everything over the last 7 years has been a partisan issue, there is no making this a partisan issue. This is a direct challenge to the power of the executive to make foreign policy by the Senate Republicans, and the president should not be sitting back and making ironic asides. I think that I best defend my position about Obama's success at winning messaging battles by showing your assumptions about what goes into messaging battles are ludicrious. You are correct that this should not be a partisan issue - and so far, it has been somewhat successful at not being turned into one - because it is precisely the sort of interference in the basic workings of the American government that has been unacceptable for a long time. Now while this is happening, you're screaming that Obama should do the one thing most likely to turn it into a partisan battle, and not getting why that is a really dumb loving idea. While Obama is quietly expressing displeasure and having proxies push the story people who casually tune in see it as the referees saying the Republicans are out of line. If Obama goes on the offensive they tune in to see a he-said she-said and tune back out with a "both sides are at fault". Your idea is dumb and you've not been able to give a single coherent explanation why it would be positive except by ignoring any aspect besides "media exposure and story longevity" while ignoring that how long the story is reported is rather less important than what story is reported.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:29
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evilweasel posted:Your posts are wrong because (a) Obama has been winning a large amount of the messaging war for the last few years, not least the "who should be elected president in 2012" messaging war (b) that Obama calling out the GOP would be "smacking them down" and (c) thinking that what's relevant is what Republican partisans believe. This. Our media is dumber than dog poo poo, but you can bet that if Josh Earnest walked into the press room and called the Republicans treasonous, the question on every talking head's lips would be "Are the Republicans traitors?" Yes, Fox News would bitch, moan, and bellyache about "language" and "tone" and "how DARE he", but they do that anyway. It would start the discussion, and if you're a Republican, do you really want everyone discussing whether or not you're a member of the party of treason as you head into an election season?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:29
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greatn posted:I think a significant portion of the left needs their leader to speak up before they get on board though. For instance my uncle is a huge lefty but often has his issues completely backwards. Like he hates the things right to work does, but thought that actually was in states without right to work laws. And didn't understand that the President was trying to negotiate a deal with Iran where they'd have to stop nuclear development, because the President just never speaks up on these things. Consistent vertical down style messaging and theme enforcement would make sense, but then again you're talking about the American left. EDIT: ^^^ This is actually reinforcing my point. The right and left have consistently different means and aims in their politicking. The concept of throwing the t word around might work for rabid right wing audiences, but it coming from the Obama administration would only knee cap it.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:30
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Frijolero posted:After spreading nuke rumors, after sanctions, after Bibi... If you want to discuss this in detail then take it to the Middle East thread. Suffice to say that your current post isn't even consistent with your last post, let alone reality.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:30
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evilweasel posted:I think that I best defend my position about Obama's success at winning messaging battles by showing your assumptions about what goes into messaging battles are ludicrious. You are correct that this should not be a partisan issue - and so far, it has been somewhat successful at not being turned into one - because it is precisely the sort of interference in the basic workings of the American government that has been unacceptable for a long time. Are you reading my posts? I didn't say it shouldn't be a partisan issue, I said it is already a partisan issue. I've given several explanations, but I see now that you aren't interested in reading the arguments, as demonstrated by your lack of comprehension here. What even are my "dumb ideas". All I've said is that he needs to be confrontational with the Republicans.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:31
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When in these kind of situations I often think the most trolly TECHNICAL response is the best answer which the Dems don't use enough, as an example net neutrality is incredibly wonky and that's roughly worked in The Dems favor despite industry kicking and screaming because industry is so completely disconnected from its customers wants and needs. Further it puts those against it in the position of having to argue a nuanced view which we've seen the republicans deploy with success endlessly. Similarly trolling could be accomplished by offering the Iranians assistance in developing thorium reactors as it basically takes weapons development off the table and calls their bluff about energy development.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:31
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EDIT: wrong post, wrong thread.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:33
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zoux posted:Are you reading my posts? I didn't say it shouldn't be a partisan issue, I said it is already a partisan issue. I've given several explanations, but I see now that you aren't interested in reading the arguments, as demonstrated by your lack of comprehension here. Sorry, I misread your post to say something more intelligent than it was. Currently it is not yet as much of a partisan issue and the Obama Administration is working to keep it that way. The goal is to make it a "the sane people vs the crazies", not a "Republicans v. Democrats", leaving enough space for the media and other Republicans to hammer this. And so far, it's working while your ideas would be dumb. zoux posted:What even are my "dumb ideas". All I've said is that he needs to be confrontational with the Republicans. That's the one, that he should abandon any intelligent media policy in favor of a clearly bad strategy in this situation.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:34
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PDP-1 posted:Gov. Scott Walker of WI has proposed a new plan that would strip the Department of Natural Resources' board members of the ability to make binding policy decisions and make those decisions advisory only: Scott Walker is trying his very best to be the absolute worst here. Not enough to attempt to turn Wisconsin into a Free Market Wonderland, you've also gotta take a big poo poo on the pretty landscape too! Every Republican Policy must be enacted! We don't need no stinkin' science tellin' us what to do with our natural resources! Dang fish'll be fine!!! Packers Win The Super Bowl!
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Mar 10, 2015 16:34
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:In the same way that police unions are usually left alone by Republicans (makes it easier to get them to violently shut down protests around destroying labor rights), firefighter unions are occasionally pandered to by the Republicans as well. Doesn't happen as often, but much more so than anything other than police unions. Where are prison guard unions in this hierarchy? Somewhere in between?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:34
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Frijolero posted:After spreading nuke rumors, after sanctions, after Bibi... So it is the Democrats fault for what Republicans are doing? Were the Democrats dressed provacatively? Republicans are/should be made up of individual conscious beings who are accountable for their own actions. Blaming Democrats for this petty breach of protocol for "they should have expected us to do something dumb and made us stop" is disingenuous.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:36
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RuanGacho posted:When in these kind of situations I often think the most trolly TECHNICAL response is the best answer which the Dems don't use enough, as an example net neutrality is incredibly wonky and that's roughly worked in The Dems favor despite industry kicking and screaming because industry is so completely disconnected from its customers wants and needs. Further it puts those against it in the position of having to argue a nuanced view which we've seen the republicans deploy with success endlessly. You can't troll negotiations and it's not a good idea to try. The entire point of the negotiations is to essentially call their bluff on their nuclear program being peaceful by agreeing on restrictions that allow them to have nuclear reactors, but without the ability to turn those into nuclear weapons. I doubt thorium reactors have been seriously considered in the negotiations because Iran has uranium deposits and sensibly wants to use those, and because I don't think thorium reactors are common enough that they'd be willing to use a technology that the rest of the world isn't using - too much fear they couldn't get it to work, etc.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:37
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evilweasel posted:Sorry, I misread your post to say something more intelligent than it was. Currently it is not yet as much of a partisan issue and the Obama Administration is working to keep it that way. The goal is to make it a "the sane people vs the crazies", not a "Republicans v. Democrats", leaving enough space for the media and other Republicans to hammer this. And so far, it's working while your ideas would be dumb. Has anyone ever told you that you come across as a huge dickhead? Anyway, lets look at the front pages of the major news networks to see how they are covering this. What's that? They loving aren't at all? Nothing is working, the Senatorial Republicans have sent this letter and they've gotten away with it. There is no issue here, no one cares, but you know what would put it in the news? Actually calling them out on it. Since you've apparently not been paying attention, nor do you read people's posts closely let me make this clearer for you EVERYTHING IS A PARTISAN ISSUE. There is no making this a partisan issue. There is no angle in a "sane people vs. the crazies". This is 47 Senators, not a fringe of Ted Cruz and Mike Lee, meddling in foreign policy. This is a HUGE loving PROBLEM and yet the msm isn't doing one loving word of a story about it, one day later. Only people with wonkish leanings are even talking about this. If the president's media team has been giving him the same advice as you are, it's no wonder his media strategy has been an unmitigated disaster since forever. Again, please point to one objective metric by one can say the president has been winning the message strategy since 2012.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:41
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zoux posted:If you don't think that the President directly challenging congressional Republicans on an issue will give that story more legs, well I don't know man. The thing is media exposure isn't Obama's goal. It's getting a nuclear deal with Iran. Directly engaging with the senate GOP legitimizes their stunt, which even the Iranian government doesn't take seriously.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:41
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The thing about Obama calling the Republicans traitors is that it doesn't end with him saying it. Sure, it'll touch off a political firestorm and the media will cover it. But then what? Then the Republicans will get interviews on every news channel to defend themselves, and they'll have an enormous opportunity to push back with a coherent message of "look at how tyrannical Obama is, calling us traitors for standing up to an evil Muslim regime." Sure, the Democrats would get some interviews too, but if you think they could keep their message straight, you haven't been paying attention to the American left for the last few years. Hell, do you remember back around 2009-2010 when Obama called out Fox News as liars? Back then Obama used the bully pulpit just as you're asking, and it backfired horribly because it validated everything Fox News was saying about the right being persecuted. We already have evidence this strategy doesn't work.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:45
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Gravel Gravy posted:So it is the Democrats fault for what Republicans are doing? Were the Democrats dressed provacatively? Dem foreign policy has become more and more hawkish. They shouldn't want the GOP to play fair, they should stop playing the GOP game. I am not saying the GOP aren't at fault and aren't petty. I am saying that hazy relations (created by the Democrats) have created an environment where the GOP feel this is an ok thing to do. If the Obama administration had been dedicated to normal relations, and not scrambling to reach a deal in its last few months, this kind of bullshit wouldn't be happening.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:45
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zoux posted:Has anyone ever told you that you come across as a huge dickhead? So here's your problem. You're mad that the Republicans have "gotten away" with something. That doesn't matter in politics. The fact that news networks aren't covering this stupidity is good for Obama and bad for Republicans. Obama saying something that lets this eat more news cycles would make things worse for him, not less.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:45
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Trabisnikof posted:So here's your problem. You're mad that the Republicans have "gotten away" with something. That doesn't matter in politics. The fact that news networks aren't covering this stupidity is good for Obama and bad for Republicans. Obama saying something that lets this eat more news cycles would make things worse for him, not less. I don't agree, because so far this is the second thing in a row they've done to undermine Obama's efforts with negotiations with Iran. Unless you think that the actions of Congress aren't doing that nor are they affecting our credibility to deal with the rest of the world, I just don't agree. What does "worse" in this context even look like?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:47
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Frijolero posted:Dem foreign policy has become more and more hawkish. They shouldn't want the GOP to play fair, they should stop playing the GOP game. I am not saying the GOP aren't at fault and aren't petty. I am saying that hazy relations (created by the Democrats) have created an environment where the GOP feel this is an ok thing to do. If the Obama administration had been dedicated to normal relations, and not scrambling to reach a deal in its last few months, this kind of bullshit wouldn't be happening. Created by the Democrats? You mean Jimmy Carter when the US Embassy was taken over and the hostages were held? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg The Democrats have become more and more hawkish? This video predates the Obama presidency BTW so relations with Iran were poo poo before Obama so not sure what your point is.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:47
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Hey, remember last year when there was talk that Michigan was going to change up how it allocated its electoral votes? Remember how the conventional wisdom of the thread was that those of us watching it were "Arzy-ing", that the guy behind it was stepping down in 2014, that it was a dead issue? Guess what's back baby? My anger at this kind of brazen malfeasance is somewhat subdued in the light of my smug satisfaction that I was right and y'all were wrong.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:50
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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/gop-iran-letter-backfires TPM isn't exactly mainstream but they literally just posted a story about the GOP letter backfiring. so maybe it's getting a bit more traction "Tuesday morning, the hashtag #47Traitors was the No. 1 trending topic on Twitter in the United States."
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Mar 10, 2015 16:51
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evilweasel posted:It's better if it comes from third parties. even the liberal New York Daily News 
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Mar 10, 2015 16:56
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Fried Chicken posted:Hey, remember last year when there was talk that Michigan was going to change up how it allocated its electoral votes? Remember how the conventional wisdom of the thread was that those of us watching it were "Arzy-ing", that the guy behind it was stepping down in 2014, that it was a dead issue? Part of me says "gently caress it, go ahead", since it would almost certainly spread and would bring attention to how badly most of the country is gerrymandered, but then I remember people are dumb as gently caress and it will only make things possibly irreversibly terrible.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:57
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:even the liberal New York Daily News That story is currently below the "CHEATER'S HOUSE BLOWS UP" story on their page so I don't know that it's necessarily considered a serious source. TheQat posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/gop-iran-letter-backfires TPM isn't exactly mainstream but they literally just posted a story about the GOP letter backfiring. so maybe it's getting a bit more traction "Tuesday morning, the hashtag #47Traitors was the No. 1 trending topic on Twitter in the United States." That's what the headline says but I don't think the body of the story holds that. Sure Reid and co. are condemning it in the strongest possible terms, but that's not necessarily news worthy. They have one article from the NYDN condemning it, but no other outlets and a bunch of fellow Republicans mild response as to appropriateness. A major backfire would be public backlash, but we'll have to see if any occurs.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:00
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The only thing that'd happen if Obama called out their bullshit is it'd reinforce their idea that Obama bad. That's it. He wouldn't be giving them a rope to hang themselves. Rather it'd be a bucket of lube to further shove their heads up their own asses.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:01
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The Daily News is a tabloid.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:01
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TheQat posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/gop-iran-letter-backfires TPM isn't exactly mainstream but they literally just posted a story about the GOP letter backfiring. so maybe it's getting a bit more traction "Tuesday morning, the hashtag #47Traitors was the No. 1 trending topic on Twitter in the United States." If you actually go click on the hashtag, almost the entire thing is a bunch of Republicans screaming that Obummer the Muslim is the real traitor and HOW DARE Democrats impugn poor Tom Cotton, a noble War Hero.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:02
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Bubbacub posted:Where are prison guard unions in this hierarchy? Somewhere in between? Ignored, and in pretty bad shape actually.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:03
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Aerox posted:If you actually go click on the hashtag, almost the entire thing is a bunch of Republicans screaming that Obummer the Muslim is the real traitor and HOW DARE Democrats impugn poor Tom Cotton, a noble War Hero. I figured, but it turns eyes toward the story in any case
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Mar 10, 2015 17:05
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There's really not a whole lot that can be done to "punish' them for this that wouldn't activate their hair-trigger persecution complex and lead to weeks of bitching. #ObamaTellin'...us what to... doGate
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Mar 10, 2015 17:05
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Aerox posted:If you actually go click on the hashtag, almost the entire thing is a bunch of Republicans screaming that Obummer the Muslim is the real traitor and HOW DARE Democrats impugn poor Tom Cotton, a noble War Hero. I wouldn't judge anything by how many unemployed assholes are flooding a hashtag with their poorly strung together half thoughts and rage.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:06
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Monkey Fracas posted:There's really not a whole lot that can be done to "punish' them for this that wouldn't activate their hair-trigger persecution complex and lead to weeks of bitching. Well hell if they're going to whine about it, better just never confront them ever. ReidRansom posted:I wouldn't judge anything by how many unemployed assholes are flooding a hashtag with their poorly strung together half thoughts and rage. Well you can certainly say that the internet isn't rising up and in one voice condemning the actions of the Senate Republicans.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:06
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zoux posted:I don't agree, because so far this is the second thing in a row they've done to undermine Obama's efforts with negotiations with Iran. Even if Republicans are hurting negotiations and the standing on the world stage, nothing Obama can do would stop that. The worst option is the one people keep reiterating at you, that Republicans will turn this into "Obama trampling the Constitution and Congress" rather than the discussing being "Republicans say more crazy poo poo" which it is now. zoux posted:Well hell if they're going to whine about it, better just never confront them ever. There's a difference between Obama confronting them and having others do it for him.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:16
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zoux posted:Well you can certainly say that the internet isn't rising up and in one voice condemning the actions of the Senate Republicans. If they were, I might doubt my own position on the issue.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:17
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Trabisnikof posted:There's a difference between Obama confronting them and having others do it for him. Yeah the difference is no one gives a poo poo if Harry Reid calls the GOP fuckers, he does it every day.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:18
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PhilippAchtel posted:But in this case I believe perception makes reality. North Korea certainly believes its nuclear weapons act as a deterrent and makes it a Regional Player.. They can believe that all they want, all the other countries in the area barely credit them with being a player within their own territory, bub. I mean they also officially believe at least that the last two Dictators were scions of Heaven. You also again just ignored the whole 15-16 years between their Soviet patron collapsing and them getting a nuke.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:19
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I was trying to discuss how hosed up this is with an acquaintance of mine and he almost immediately started shouting BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI
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Mar 10, 2015 17:25
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Farking Bastage posted:I was trying to discuss how hosed up this is with an acquaintance of mine and he almost immediately started shouting BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI Gee sure hope this doesn't turn into a partisan issue.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:27
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