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My Imaginary GF posted:You don't have to be pro-Israel to understand Obama's Iran appeasement policy as a political failure and liability against engendering hope towards a two-state solution. Appeasement is a historically effective strategy, but lol you need to work better at these trolls this one doesn't even make sense. I'm gonna appease this tiny regional power while I go put together the largest military the world has ever seen. Oh wait.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:49
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Yeah, that is the most hosed part of it all. The minute any Palestinian uses violence it will be all the proof you'll need that Netanyahu is the right man for the job. Also how is Obama 'appeasing' Iran? The United States isn't giving up anything (part of the rationale for Congress not needing to vote). No concessions have been discussed - although Israel isn't party to the negotiations and perhaps Iran is demanding something be done about the Israeli nuclear program. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 23:50
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McDowell posted:Yeah, that is the most hosed part of it all. Not engaging in collective punishment of the Iranian people is giving something up. We love collective punishment. Look at Iraq. Look at our support of Bibi
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Mar 19, 2015 23:56
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Zeitgueist posted:We love collective punishment. Oh I know - which is why it should be done in such a spectacular way that everyone will have to question themselves and their humanity. Dig a nuclear grave for ISIL and make the regional states bury their hatchet there.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:59
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So, how long until PA collapses from lack of funds (what with Bibi sitting on Palestinian tax money) and lack of credibility (what with Abbas' collaborationist policies having only resulted in making things worse for Palestinians)?
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Mar 20, 2015 00:06
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i wish to see bibi consumed by beetles
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Mar 20, 2015 00:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQx3XMkiVbg It's pretty funny, I was originally just looking up this video to post as trivia and to troll Avshalom with handsome young Bibi, but now I think it's pretty good watch cause for starters his opinions haven't changed for about a million years and also I think that he provides a rather concise summation of many of the views of the contemporary Israeli right. I mean, he obviously lies about some poo poo, and lol at his support of a binational state, but it's rather interesting.
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Mar 20, 2015 01:37
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Liberal_L33t posted:I think Obama can make a strong argument even to American Jews and other pro-Israeli democrats that doing so is essentially the only way to save Israel from Likud extremism at this point. Define strong. It's not going to resonate if you think that argument has any chance of persuading those groups. quote:Apartheid and ghettoization is one thing, but if the IDF and settlers start straight-up mass murdering in response to another intifada, then crushing Russia-style economic sanctions will be the tamest response Israel can expect from the world at large. In that eventuality, I don't think that covert military aid from western Europe to HAMAS is out of the realm of possibility. Military aid from other Middle-east countries would be a near-certainty. What on Earth are you going on about here? None of this is going to happen, never mind the fact that the west is shrugging with hundreds of thousands dead in Syria. emanresu tnuocca posted:You know, the thing is that he doesn't owe them jack poo poo and he would have won even if they all voted for the Jewish Home instead. Question is though whether or not it affected turnout.
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Mar 20, 2015 01:56
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Kim Jong Il posted:Define strong. It's not going to resonate if you think that argument has any chance of persuading those groups. Thanks for continually stopping into the I/P thread to remind us of what's going on in Syria.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:03
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Cat Mattress posted:So, how long until PA collapses from lack of funds (what with Bibi sitting on Palestinian tax money) and lack of credibility (what with Abbas' collaborationist policies having only resulted in making things worse for Palestinians)? Hareetz op/ed said 1-2 months without America continuing to shake down the saudis et al. for donations.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:21
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Cat Mattress posted:So, how long until PA collapses from lack of funds (what with Bibi sitting on Palestinian tax money) and lack of credibility (what with Abbas' collaborationist policies having only resulted in making things worse for Palestinians)? Compared to what? The PA's corruption and ineffectiveness is obvious, but the alternative is loving HAMAS, which has caused far more harm to Palestinians, both in the immediate sense and for long-term hopes of ending the Israeli occupation.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:29
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Sure, but at a certain point you'd expect a person who claims to be the legitimate leader of his people to care about more than his own political survival, the PA is an ancient beast, it's true that it loses all legitimacy without an official 'peace process' taking place but surely Abbas recognizes that his administration can no longer offer his people any real hope, he's went beyond 'allowing Israel to procrastinate' into allowing them to make an independent Palestine an impossibility. Abbas fears the West a lot more than he does Israel, I think. If he were just a straight collaborationist, he wouldn't have carried out the various UN bids for acknowledgement. He's dedicated to the international community solving things, because, really, what else can he do? He can't turn around after twenty years of advocating peace and say "well, intifada time". Every scrap of legitimacy and support he's struggled for would go down the toilet, Western aid to the PA would get cut off, and there's no way his political career would survive such an about-face.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:33
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McDowell posted:Yeah, that is the most hosed part of it all. Yeah, the message from this election is pretty clear - violence against Israel is utterly hopeless and self-destructive for the Palestinians. What happened last summer can happen again, but worse this time, since Bibi is stronger now. A commitment to non-violence is the only chance Palestinians have for a good outcome.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:09
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hakimashou posted:Yeah, the message from this election is pretty clear - violence against Israel is utterly hopeless and self-destructive for the Palestinians. They have committed to peace before, and even enforced it to the 99% degree. Israel keeps their police (sorry, 'armed combatants) down enough to make that the extent of their power. That didn't stop the Israelis from breaking the peace when they want to, then blaming the less than 1% remaining rocket fire for it. Israel's commitment to peace has been a joke for a decade+
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Mar 20, 2015 05:14
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McDowell posted:The minute any Palestinian uses violence it will be all the proof you'll need that Netanyahu is the right man for the job. I don't agree with this. Bibi's approval rating was at its lowest when those IDF soldiers got killed.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:20
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It was sky high before that.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:36
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hakimashou posted:Yeah, the message from this election is pretty clear - violence against Israel is utterly hopeless and self-destructive for the Palestinians. I'm not so sure about that, as the West Bank is completely different from Gaza. Israeli settlements are way too intermingled with the West Bank to just wall it off, bomb the hell out of it, and make ground incursions at their leisure. It'd definitely be a very nasty situation for everyone involved, with civilian casualties on both sides.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:47
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Ultramega posted:It was sky high before that. Yeah, and then he and the right in Israel won a mandate in the election. A mandate for 'strong' leadership.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:24
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fat ghost cock sliding down my throat, oh god this is all i've ever wanted
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Mar 20, 2015 10:36
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Avshalom posted:fat ghost cock sliding down my throat New thread title pls
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Mar 20, 2015 12:53
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Nana and Bubbe are rolling over in their graves.
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Mar 20, 2015 13:03
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quote:Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended himself in an interview against accusations that he used racially charged language to discriminate against Israel’s Arab minority before saying that he was trying to mobilize voters against “Arab money.” Whoopsie.
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Mar 20, 2015 17:22
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DaveWoo posted:Whoopsie.
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Mar 20, 2015 17:56
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Whoops indeed! In other news, it looks like Netanyahu has, predictably, walked back his comment about a two-state solution being impossible, tacking on enough caveats and footnotes that he can say he didn't really mean to rule out the two-state solution altogether. It's pretty much exactly what I thought he'd say, really - that he believes in the concept of a Palestinian state but that he thinks it's impossible to make an acceptable deal as long as militant elements exist in Palestine. Unfortunately for him, the White House has stated that they're not going to buy it and back down, and that they will continue to act as though he meant what he said originally. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a major change in US/Israeli relations, as the US threats mostly just seem like hot air so far, except that it seems that the Obama administration has largely given up on getting an I/P peace deal while Netanyahu is in power and will probably no longer push for negotiations in any meaningful way. The greater damage here is definitely to Netanyahu's personal credibility; nobody had time to press him too hard over election day, but now that he's walking it all back, the media seems to delight in pointing out that "I thought I was going to lose the election, so I decided to lie like crazy" doesn't reflect well on his personal integrity. For what it's worth, I truly believe that Netanyahu's position hasn't actually changed since last week. His position has clearly been for a long time that a two-state solution is acceptable...but only under ridiculous terms that the PA can't possibly accept or carry out. That's what he's saying now, and that's what his position in previous rounds of negotiations has been. Unfortunately, he's sacrificed his foreign credibility to placate domestic interests, and now that's going to come back and bite him as everyone stops pretending his conditions are in any way acceptable. http://www.wsj.com/articles/abbas-two-state-solution-no-longer-possible-1426776658 quote:TEL AVIV—Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reversed himself for the second time in a week on support for a Palestinian state and said he would back it under the right conditions, a turnaround that the U.S. and Palestinians dismissed as unconvincing. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 17:58
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I would like very much for our papers of record to denounce Netanyahu as a lying sack of poo poo in their headlines, rather than the softer and also not true "walking back controversial statements" line. But that ain't gon happen so I guess we'll just have to settle for that
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Mar 20, 2015 18:06
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DaveWoo posted:Whoopsie. "No you see, when I said people should be careful around jews what I meant is that they should be on the lookout for all that jewish money  ".
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Mar 20, 2015 18:11
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Republicans are adapting to the inevitability of a one-state solution:quote:"We need to look at fresh ideas," said Carson. "I don't have any problem with the Palestinians having a state, but does it need to be within the confines of Israeli territory? Is that necessary, or can you sort of slip that area down into Egypt? Right below Israel, they have some amount of territory, and it can be adjacent. They can benefit from the many agricultural advances that were made by Israel, because if you fly over that area, you can easily see the demarcation between Egypt and Israel, in terms of one being desert and one being verdant. Technology could transform that area. So why does it need to be in an area where there's going to be temptation for Hamas to continue firing missiles at relatively close range to Israel?" http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-03-20/ben-carson-arm-ukraine-expand-nato-rethink-russia-s-position-on-un-security-council
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Mar 20, 2015 18:18
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Ben Carson is reportedly an excellent doctor. He should go back to doing that because he's a terrible politician and spokesman for his party's ideas.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:23
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quote:Mr. Netanyahu said in the Thursday interviews that he believed a Palestinian state could exist if it were demilitarized and recognized Israel as a Jewish state. Jesus Christ. That's unbelievable.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:28
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DaveWoo posted:Whoopsie. Maybe he just really doesn't like Busta Rhymes, have you considered that you antisemitie?
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Mar 20, 2015 18:36
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euphronius posted:Jesus Christ. That's unbelievable. Do the Israelis volunteer to be demilitarized, too? The security of both could be guaranteed by the UN.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:41
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Iowa Snow King posted:Do the Israelis volunteer to be demilitarized, too? The security of both could be guaranteed by the UN. Because the UN isn't a spineless organization that prefers to get out of the way when someone wants to invade Israel, nor does it provide weapons to terrorists when they're discovered inside UN facilities, nosiree.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:43
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I wish more people would read that report about how basically the IDF's ground forces are literally a joke and don't do any excercises beyond battalion-size groups and how they relied way too heavily on "effects-based operations" that didn't really have any...effect on enemy combatants. You know other than making them duck.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:49
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 "The day after voting in the elections, I find out that no one told me about the leftist NGOs driving arabs to the ballots in busses. Like a sucker I had to walk."
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Mar 20, 2015 18:53
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It's honestly amazing to me that not even one week passed after Netanyahu's election and he's already given two interviews to two different American television networks to beg for forgiveness for what he said during the campaign. He knows that Israel's current state depends uniquely on American support, and more or less shat his pants when the State Department reacted to his pledge to block a Palestinian state. You often hear people commenting that the US seems to be subservient to Israel, but that's a load of poo poo. All it takes is a meaningless, mealy-mouthed "we might re-consider our approach" to get big boy Bibi, pants soiled, running to the first big American network who'll give him a platform.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:53
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I was wondering how much would it shake Israeli politics if the US were to let a UNSC resolution pass without a veto, even if it were nothing more than some token measure. Given the panicked reversal we are seeing even at the slightest hint of that happening I think that I was underestimating the effects.
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Mar 20, 2015 19:13
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Shifty Pony posted:I was wondering how much would it shake Israeli politics if the US were to let a UNSC resolution pass without a veto, even if it were nothing more than some token measure. Given the panicked reversal we are seeing even at the slightest hint of that happening I think that I was underestimating the effects. Rumor is that's exactly what Obama threatened Bibi with after he stated that the two state deal was dead as long as he was PM... so if it actually happened I would say the entire Knesset would collectively poo poo themselves instead of just Bibi and either do everything they could to get back into the US's good graces or try to latch onto Russia in record time. In the US it would probably make Sheldon Adelson have a stroke so I'm actually all for it.
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Mar 20, 2015 19:20
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Liberal_L33t posted:Apartheid and ghettoization is one thing, but if the IDF and settlers start straight-up mass murdering in response to another intifada, then crushing Russia-style economic sanctions will be the tamest response Israel can expect from the world at large. In that eventuality, I don't think that covert military aid from western Europe to HAMAS is out of the realm of possibility. Military aid from other Middle-east countries would be a near-certainty.  if you think western aid to HAMAS will ever happen. Aside from the fact that no western intelligence agency wants to arm a radical Sunni militant group, for basically every possible reason, HAMAS aren't even most countries' first choice in Palestinian parties. If you had said covert aid to the PA, it would have been slightly less ridiculous.
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Mar 20, 2015 19:29
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euphronius posted:Jesus Christ. That's unbelievable. It's been Netanyahu's position for a while. It's come up in previous negotiations, with Israel demanding Palestinian demilitarization, free access to (or sometimes control over) Palestinian airspace, the right to send military forces into Palestinian territory as needed, and a clause saying that Palestine wouldn't be able to ally with any other country without Israeli approval. Not just Netanyahu, either - these have been Israel's "security" demands for quite a long time, long enough that the "two-state solution" Israel wants should more accurately be called the "one-and-a-half-state solution".
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Mar 20, 2015 20:23
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quote:Asked why the president did not take the prime minister at his word about his support for a two-state solution, Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary, quickly shot back: “Well, I guess the question is, which one?” 
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Mar 20, 2015 21:27
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