I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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1337JiveTurkey: Feb 17, 2005

Replace IDF in the West Bank with rampaging golems, still end up with fewer Palestinian casualties.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 11:51

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# ? May 31, 2024 22:50

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

The Insect Court posted:

lol, was gonna post the opinion polling I had found earlier(second link on Google) but you managed to find the same poll where the single biggest impediment to peace is Palestinian intransigence and somehow imagine it's proof the European homme on the strabe is cheering on the heroic martyrs of Hamas and their struggle to reclaim al-Quds from the Zionist crusaders. Do you understand how being anti-occupation is a very far ways away from what being "pro-Palestinian" means inside your head?

The biggest obstacle to peace, according to the poll, is "Unwillingness of Israelis/Palestinians to compromise", followed by Israeli settlements in 2nd place and Israeli oppression of Palestinians in 3rd.

quote:

Good point on their being no real anti-semitism in Europe(outside of those nasty right-wingers, natch). How dare those hasbara shills suggest German crowds chanting "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas" is anti-semitic? I mean, they didn't say what sort of gas they meant. They could have been recommending a nice relaxing trip to an oxygen bar. Or maybe to a party where there are lots of helium-filled balloons.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you even still talking to me? Actually, are you confusing me with someome else? Because that would explain your retarded posts pretty well, given that you clearly have no idea what being pro-Palestinian means "inside my head".

# ? Mar 26, 2015 12:12

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

1337JiveTurkey posted:

Replace IDF in the West Bank with rampaging golems, still end up with fewer Palestinian casualties.

While we're at it perhaps we could conjure a spell that makes lead projectiles shoot out of metal tubes and strike people with great force!

you've just described drone warfare, we don't need magic for that

# ? Mar 26, 2015 12:25

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

We should support the Jewish people in all their endeavors, especially the genocidal ones.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 14:42

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.648879

quote:

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is planning to host a reception for Joint List MKs after they are sworn in and hold discussions with them on political developments in Israel and the lawmakers’ Knesset activity, an official in Abbas’ office said Wednesday.

The official said the PA does not expect the MKs to focus solely on the Palestinian issue, but said it was important for discussions of peace and ending the occupation to have a prominent place in Israeli political discourse.

Joint List officials confirmed plans for the reception, but some of the 13 MKs on the ticket, an alliance between Israel’s Arab parties and the Arab-Jewish Hadash party, were not pleased the PA had publicized the meeting. Some of the MKs are concerned that close public ties with the PA could have a negative effect on the party in Israel.

“The Joint List is prepared to hold meetings with anyone in the country, in the occupied territories or abroad and make every effort to advance a just peace based on United Nations resolutions, not to mention the leadership of the Palestinian people, which is not finding a partner on the Israeli side,” the party said in a statement. “The Joint List will continue to conduct courageous and frank discourse with all of the citizens in Israel and continue to fight for the liberation of both peoples from the occupation. We believe that is in the genuine interest of both peoples.”

The Palestinian Authority has shown great interest in political developments among Israeli Arabs, particularly the success of Joint List, which has become the third-largest party in the Knesset. Its constituent factions merged after the electoral threshold was raised, requiring parties to win at least 3.25 percent of the vote in order to get into the Knesset.

Leaders of each of the four factions that make up the party — Hadash’s Ayman Odeh, who heads the party; Masud Ganaim of the Islamic Movement; Jamal Zahalka of Balad; and Osama Saadia of Ta’al — met with Fatah officials at Abbas’ Muqata headquarters in Ramallah this week. Mohammed al-Madani, the Abbas representative responsible for contact with the Israeli public, was present at the meeting.

Abbas, who had pushed for the formation of Joint List, met with several of the candidates on the ticket in the run-up to the March 17 election.

Out of patience

The Palestinian Authority is closely following comments by American officials regarding Israel and the peace process, but they don’t appear to be banking on any fundamental policy shift on the part of the U.S. administration. A senior Palestinian official said recent comments by U.S. President Barack Obama and other administration officials critical of Netanyahu are encouraging, but don’t provide anything specific for the Palestinian leadership to hold onto.

At the most recent meeting between Abbas and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on the sidelines of an economic conference in Egypt, the Palestinian president came away disappointed, the PA official said. “Kerry again spoke about ideas that he is trying to develop and asked for patience from Abu Mazen [Abbas], and Abu Mazen made it clear to him that his patience has been exhausted,” the official said.

Palestinian officials have said the Obama administration was counting on Netanyahu to lose the election, saying Washington is now trying to figure out its next step in the region. Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat recently went to Washington for meetings with senior American officials and representatives of the American Jewish community to discuss what comes next.

Officials in Ramallah said that at this stage the Palestinian leadership would not press for additional UN Security Council action on behalf of the Palestinians because any majority vote is still dependent on the United States, which may require recognition of Israel as a Jewish state as a condition for not vetoing resolutions. Instead, the PA appears set to press for action by the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 15:05

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Main Paineframe posted:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.648879

quote:
Abbas, who had pushed for the formation of Joint List, met with several of the candidates on the ticket in the run-up to the March 17 election.

I missed the coverage of this before the elections. Lieberman is going to have a field day with this.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 15:25

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

It's not like the people who will get outraged at this were ever going to vote Joint List anyway

# ? Mar 26, 2015 21:15

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Elotana posted:

It's not like the people who will get outraged at this were ever going to vote Joint List anyway

That's not the point. Lieberman has gone whole hog on the "Arabs are a fifth column and should get elected in Ramallah and Gaza where they belong", and here we find that Abbas literally pressed them to do this. Did you see the 8-leader debate?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 21:20

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

A bit of a tangent.

Here in STL, there's been increasing collaboration between various activist groups post-Ferguson. A few African-Americans visited Israel & WB on the invitation of a few Palestinians and came back. There was a nice panel a little over a month ago with them describing their experiences and shared realities in Black America & Palestine.

There was supposed to be another panel "From Ayotzinapa to Ferguson to Palestine: A Dialogue on Solidarity and Inter-Movement Collaboration� hosted at the MO History Museum. The museum was ok with it and then abruptly gave the organizers an ultimatum to either move the event or remove Palestine from the panel.

The museum denied there was outside influence in the decision.

https://www.studlife.com/?p=76201
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...7aada3fa07.html

Instead of a panel, people protested outside of the History Museum.

STL Jews for Peace delivered a sunshine request to the museum to request emails.

They followed through and it's kind of a bombshell that probably won't be covered in the media. I figure it's worth posting here.

quote:

In a series of emails obtained, Abramson-Goldstein calls for the removal of Palestine from the panel; she wrote to Levine � "I am writing because I have been receiving emails and phone calls expressing dismay at the upcoming History Museum Program: Ferguson to Ayotzinapa to Palestine: Solidarity and Collaborative Action. I can understand the dismay.�

After the event�s cancellation, Abramson-Goldstein wrote to Levine �When you and I eventually have our breakfast/lunch/coffee we can look back at this incident as an illustration of a potentially damaging incident defused."

Regional director of the Anti-Defamation League Karen Aroesty also expressed concern over the event when she wrote to Levine �[I] wonder if you have contacted Metro PD to let them know you may need additional personnel.�

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz0itx9T9t-5RzJuOFVDVm5mYmc/view

I'm not an organizer or anything - but find it really sad that there was a concerted effort to silence the panel.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 21:31

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

The bitter irony is that kind of interference only increases the sense of solidarity, since it makes the point that those with influence want to keep oppressed peoples from cooperating with each other and learning about the commonalities in their situations - it becomes the commonality.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 22:34

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

guidoanselmi posted:

A bit of a tangent.

Here in STL, there's been increasing collaboration between various activist groups post-Ferguson. A few African-Americans visited Israel & WB on the invitation of a few Palestinians and came back. There was a nice panel a little over a month ago with them describing their experiences and shared realities in Black America & Palestine.

There was supposed to be another panel "From Ayotzinapa to Ferguson to Palestine: A Dialogue on Solidarity and Inter-Movement Collaboration� hosted at the MO History Museum. The museum was ok with it and then abruptly gave the organizers an ultimatum to either move the event or remove Palestine from the panel.

The museum denied there was outside influence in the decision.

https://www.studlife.com/?p=76201
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...7aada3fa07.html

Instead of a panel, people protested outside of the History Museum.

STL Jews for Peace delivered a sunshine request to the museum to request emails.

They followed through and it's kind of a bombshell that probably won't be covered in the media. I figure it's worth posting here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz0itx9T9t-5RzJuOFVDVm5mYmc/view

I'm not an organizer or anything - but find it really sad that there was a concerted effort to silence the panel.

oh no not a concerted effort :stonk:

!

I bet the ADL would have set a bunch of heavies to break legs! It can't have been because the museum wised up about the narcissistic and pathological need of certain "activists" to hijack any discussion that isn't about Palestine. Sorry poor black people, you're just not oppressed by the Zionists enough to be interesting :shrug:

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:09

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

The Insect Court posted:

oh no not a concerted effort !

I bet the ADL would have set a bunch of heavies to break legs! It can't have been because the museum wised up about the narcissistic and pathological need of certain "activists" to hijack any discussion that isn't about Palestine. Sorry poor black people, you're just not oppressed by the Zionists enough to be interesting

No, they would discourage donors and mess with the Museum's reputation. Not that strawman you're talking about. Do you even understand how soft power works?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:15

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

That's kind of small potatoes compared to what's going on in Gaza right now. What's going on in Gaza right now, you ask? Nothing. Absolutely nothing - no reconstruction, no homes, no money, no electricity, no clean water, no hospitals, and barely any international aid. The number of people killed in Protective Edge is tiny compared to the number forced into misery by the devastation brought to bear against Gazan infrastructure. Not only that, but neither Hamas nor the PA has any money to spend on rebuilding, and aid organizations' funds have largely dried up since the international community's pledges of billions of dollars worth of aid appear to have been nothing more than empty promises that they failed to deliver on. Aid organizations are now estimating that, at the current rate, it will take over 100 years to rebuild Gaza to the state it was in a year ago.

http://www.dailynews.com//general-news/20150325/the-situation-in-gaza-is-so-desperate-that-some-are-predicting-another-war

quote:

GAZA - It's evening, and the neighborhood of Shejaiya is completely dark. Metal rods hang at odd angles off of crumbling skeletons of buildings, and occasionally the pale neon glow of an LED flashlight illuminates a face walking by.

More than 2,000 Gazans were killed during Israel's Operation Protective Edge last year. The 51-day offensive flattened large swathes of the Gaza Strip and turned much of Shejaiya and other neighborhoods into ash-colored wastelands. More than seven months later, 100,000 people are still homeless.

Gaza still looks almost exactly as it did a week after the shelling ended. Only 5 percent of the $5.4 billion in aid pledged by international donors at a conference in Cairo last year has been disbursed - meaning aid agencies have had to cut services for destitute Gazans. The lack of funding has replaced access to construction materials as the main obstacle to rebuilding. Oxfam said last month that at the current rate, rebuilding Gaza would take more than a hundred years.

The sheer level of destruction in Gaza is hard to take in. Much of it is rubble. Children, undeterred by their surroundings, play in and around damaged buildings or collect pieces of their former homes to sell to factory owners. The living situation is so bad that many warn another round of fighting is inevitable.

More than 120,000 homes were damaged or destroyed during the summer offensive. Moussa Mohamed Hamdeya's was one of them.

"When we left, we didn't take money or clothes or anything," says Hamdeya, 54. "When we came back we found that everything had been burned. Everything we're wearing now was given to us by other people."

Hamdeya and 11 other family members now live in a three-room structure with no windows.

Before the offensive he worked in construction, but the shelling destroyed his warehouse, and his livelihood along with it.

This month, after a funding shortfall of $585 billion, the United Nations' relief agency had to stop providing rent subsidies to homeless families and cash to those whose homes were partially destroyed, a move that affects about 80,000 people. If the payments do not resume, Hamdeya will be forced to move his family of 12 back into a UN school classroom where they lived until November of last year.

Gaza residents say that in previous offensives the Israeli army targeted militant infrastructure or houses where known fighters lived.

"This time the shelling was random, the damage was random," says Hajj Abdel Khalil el-Helou, whose house was badly shelled.

At 80, el-Helou lived through the formation of the State of Israel in 1948, attacks by the Israeli army in '56, and the Six-Day War in '67. Sometime in the mid-20th century his leg was blown off by an Israeli sniper. He and his wife cannot agree on exactly when. His house was shelled during each of the last three wars - but this time was different, he says.

"This time was a million times worse! This was the worst thing, the worst in my life, the worst in history!"

El-Helou lost about 50 relatives in last summer's offensive, including a family of 12, all of them killed in one house.

This time Israeli bombs flattened his shop as well. Now he has no money and no way to work.

"I do not think I will rebuild this time," he says. When asked about what he thinks will happen in the future, he says, "God knows. No one can expect anything anymore. In Gaza there is no life. But our neighbor's situation is worse than ours, God help them."

Widespread homelessness is increasing the strain on families who are already struggling.

Hanadi al-Najjar, 30, contracted cancer after exposure to white phosphorus during the 2008-2009 Gaza offensive. Hers is one of hundreds of displaced families now living in Gulf-funded temporary shelters. Sick and homeless, she can no longer take care of her six children. She had to put them in an orphanage.

"We visit them whenever we can afford it," she says. That's usually about once or twice a month.

Electricity as a weapon

But even those who are still in their homes are facing extreme difficulties.

Six hours of electricity a day, sometimes less, is not enough to refrigerate food. Unable to store perishables for long, some Gazans are living from one meal to the next.

Gaza's only power plant was bombed in 2006. It was hit again during last summer's offensive. It began operating again at reduced capacity but stopped earlier this month because of a tax dispute between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. The rest of Gaza's electricity comes via cables from Israel and Egypt.

"Electricity is the mother of services," says Jamal al-Dardasawy, spokesman for the Gaza Electricity Distribution Company. "They hit electricity and all the services stop."

The main warehouse for materials to maintain the electrical grid was also hit.

"It's all charcoal, even the cables turned to liquid," says al-Dardasawy.

Even before the offensive, electricity in Gaza only arrived in eight-hour blocks, each followed by the same amount of time without.

"Israel uses electricity as a weapon," he says. "The shells fall here and there, and not everyone dies, right? But all people feel the electricity crisis, from the small child to the old man."

For al-Dardasawy it's the little indignities that are the most painful; not the bread lines he saw in September, but the sight of an old man waiting for five hours for the electricity to come on so he can take the elevator to get up to his apartment.

Gargling with seawater

Since the summer, many Gazans have struggled to access clean water and adequate sanitation.

Brushing your teeth with the briny stuff that flows from faucets here feels like gargling with seawater. When you drive down the coast, you can smell the 40 thousand cubic meters of untreated sewage gushing into the Mediterranean.

Much of the water infrastructure in the eastern Gaza Strip, near the border with Israel, was completely destroyed in the last offensive.

In Beit Hanoun, where once there were well-appointed houses and green farmland, there is now little but rubble. The US Agency for International Development and Mercy Corps, a US-based development organization, have set up a joint project to distribute fresh water.

Throughout the day residents line up at the pumps with plastic buckets, while schoolchildren stop by to drink from them like water fountains.

Maher al-Najjar, deputy general director of Gaza's Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, says that during the offensive his department gave the Israelis the coordinates of all water and wastewater facilities, hoping they would be spared during the air assault.

"But it seems they were targeting facilities without any restriction," he says.

The water authority lost 12 staff members during the war. Under normal circumstances, repairs to the water system should take a year and a half. But al-Najjar says it is now so hard to acquire the materials it could take 20.

Many Gazans buy drinking water from private water tankers who have small desalination plants. Even the desalinated water is not very safe to drink.

The lack of electricity has brought commerce and manufacturing to a standstill.

Many farms were bombed during the war. Ibrahim Samarra, 47, is a farmer from the central Gaza Strip. He used to have 1,500 chickens.

"During the war they starved to death when we fled our homes," he says. The area was too dangerous for him to come back and feed them.

Hatem Hassouna owned a group of factories in the Eastern Gaza Strip that made construction materials for UN projects. They were shelled during each of the last three offensives. Last summer the IDF used them as a base during the ground offensive. On the day the soldiers left, they razed the factories to the ground.

"There are no fighters in this area. I can think of no reason other than destroying the Gazan economy. One hundred and thirty people worked here," Hassouna says.

Unemployment in Gaza doubled from around 108,000 in mid-2013 to over 200,000 in mid-2014. Because of the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, the Gazan economy is one of the most unstable in the world. Its unemployment and GDP per capita are comparable to those of Libya, Liberia or Sierra Leone.

The Israeli government says the blockade is necessary "because Hamas continues to declare its goal of killing Israelis" says Mark Regev, a spokesman for the prime minister's office.

Meanwhile, in Israel, the word "Gaza" was hardly mentioned in the recent electoral campaign.

"In the past eight years there has been a steep drop in the willingness of Israelis to listen to Gazans," says Sarit Michaeli, spokesperson for B'tselem, an Israeli human rights organization.

"There's a lot of hatred. Israelis are afraid of tunnels and missiles," she says. But most of the time, Gaza is out of sight, out of mind.

"Israelis can forget about Gaza as long as they're not firing missiles."

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:26

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

quote:

"In the past eight years there has been a steep drop in the willingness of Israelis to listen to Gazans,"

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:39

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Main Paineframe posted:

That's kind of small potatoes compared to what's going on in Gaza right now. What's going on in Gaza right now, you ask? Nothing. Absolutely nothing - no reconstruction, no homes, no money, no electricity, no clean water, no hospitals, and barely any international aid. The number of people killed in Protective Edge is tiny compared to the number forced into misery by the devastation brought to bear against Gazan infrastructure. Not only that, but neither Hamas nor the PA has any money to spend on rebuilding, and aid organizations' funds have largely dried up since the international community's pledges of billions of dollars worth of aid appear to have been nothing more than empty promises that they failed to deliver on. Aid organizations are now estimating that, at the current rate, it will take over 100 years to rebuild Gaza to the state it was in a year ago.

http://www.dailynews.com//general-news/20150325/the-situation-in-gaza-is-so-desperate-that-some-are-predicting-another-war

utter despair

Jesus Christ. :cripes:

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:40

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

I'm honestly surprised there haven't been any really out of control disease outbreaks in Gaza yet.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:41

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

litany of gulps posted:

I'm honestly surprised there haven't been any really out of control disease outbreaks in Gaza yet.

You have to be an alive person to get a disease.

corn in the bible fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 27, 2015

# ? Mar 26, 2015 23:55

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

emanresu tnuocca posted:

While we're at it perhaps we could conjure a spell that makes lead projectiles shoot out of metal tubes and strike people with great force!

you've just described drone warfare, we don't need magic for that

Are you confirming the presence of Israeli Golems in the West Bank?

# ? Mar 27, 2015 00:09

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

420 Gank Mid posted:

Are you confirming the presence of Israeli Golems in the West Bank?

What are drones but flying golems?

# ? Mar 27, 2015 00:10

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

Absurd Alhazred posted:

What are drones but flying golems?

Drones!

corn in the bible fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 27, 2015

# ? Mar 27, 2015 00:15

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

corn in the bible posted:

drones

You're no fun. אמת

# ? Mar 27, 2015 00:17

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

Having any kind of fun or comedy or joke with regard to Israel is not allowed on this forum.

corn in the bible fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 27, 2015

# ? Mar 27, 2015 01:05

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

corn in the bible posted:

having any kind of fun or comedy or joke with regard to israel is not allowed on this forum

You're not the mod of me!

# ? Mar 27, 2015 01:21

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

420 Gank Mid posted:

Are you confirming the presence of Israeli Golems in the West Bank?

I am

# ? Mar 27, 2015 02:18

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

Memo to mods: I have carefully edited my posts to add capital letters.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 02:29

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

With the state Gaza is in there's no surprise why Palestinians want Israeli heads on pikes.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 02:51

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Either way I'll bet if I posted that article on my Facebook I'd get flooded with "They deserve it :smug:

" comments up the wazoo.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 02:52

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Main Paineframe posted:

That's kind of small potatoes compared to what's going on in Gaza right now. What's going on in Gaza right now, you ask? Nothing. Absolutely nothing - no reconstruction, no homes, no money, no electricity, no clean water, no hospitals, and barely any international aid. The number of people killed in Protective Edge is tiny compared to the number forced into misery by the devastation brought to bear against Gazan infrastructure. Not only that, but neither Hamas nor the PA has any money to spend on rebuilding, and aid organizations' funds have largely dried up since the international community's pledges of billions of dollars worth of aid appear to have been nothing more than empty promises that they failed to deliver on. Aid organizations are now estimating that, at the current rate, it will take over 100 years to rebuild Gaza to the state it was in a year ago.

http://www.dailynews.com//general-news/20150325/the-situation-in-gaza-is-so-desperate-that-some-are-predicting-another-war

So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it?

Hamas may not have money and materials now, but they had it before. And they chose to make rockets and tunnels.

I don't believe there is any outcome to palestinian violence except the one in Gaza. Militarily, it is an utterly hopeless, self destructive criminal lost cause for them that they can't ever possibly win, and won't.

Their only hope is to commit to non violence.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:03

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

Yes, because people in the West Bank who aren't "violent" live the good life and aren't having their land and water taken away from them and getting harassed 24/7.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:05

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

hakimashou posted:

So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it?

Hamas may not have money and materials now, but they had it before. And they chose to make rockets and tunnels.

I don't believe there is any outcome to palestinian violence except the one in Gaza. Militarily, it is an utterly hopeless, self destructive criminal lost cause for them that they can't ever possibly win, and won't.

Their only hope is to commit to non violence.

What exactly do you think the next step is? Are all the pathetic people in Gaza suddenly going to think, hmm, maybe I shouldn't try and kill the Israelis that have ruined my life and slaughtered my family? Obviously they're going to fight in any way possible. What is "not winning" for them that hasn't already been visited upon them, and how does Israel take this to the next step without destroying themselves at the same time, either via endless war or crushing international condemnation (if they ever step things up into the sort of extremes that would actually be required to finish this via oppression)?

Personally, I hope the solution is the US slowly drawing back military aid, since the Israelis apparently can't handle more than a week or so of bombing civilians before they run out of weapons without our taxes paying for their massacres. If they can't do it, they won't do it, and might perhaps have to come to the table and sort some poo poo out.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:09

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

hakimashou posted:

So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it?

Hamas may not have money and materials now, but they had it before. And they chose to make rockets and tunnels.

I don't believe there is any outcome to palestinian violence except the one in Gaza. Militarily, it is an utterly hopeless, self destructive criminal lost cause for them that they can't ever possibly win, and won't.

Their only hope is to commit to non violence.

I bolded the last four lines of that article for a reason.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:24

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

hakimashou posted:

So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it?

Hamas may not have money and materials now, but they had it before. And they chose to make rockets and tunnels.

I don't believe there is any outcome to palestinian violence except the one in Gaza. Militarily, it is an utterly hopeless, self destructive criminal lost cause for them that they can't ever possibly win, and won't.

Their only hope is to commit to non violence.

Holy poo poo, didn't even need to post it on Facebook.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:25

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

hakimashou posted:

So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it?

Hamas may not have money and materials now, but they had it before. And they chose to make rockets and tunnels.

Gonna make an easy prediction and say none of the usual suspects are going to actually answer that question(hint: no it was not). Instead we'll get long whiny passive-aggressive posts attacking the asking of the question.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:36

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The Insect Court posted:

Gonna make an easy prediction and say none of the usual suspects are going to actually answer that question(hint: no it was not). Instead we'll get long whiny passive-aggressive posts attacking the asking of the question.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

That's because the question is hilariously, terribly, incredibly, amazingly stupid.

Or racist.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:41

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

In all seriousness, I think the Gazans would gravitate toward anyone who has any real hope or help to offer them. The problem is, no one is stepping up to show that they give even the slightest sliver of a poo poo about Gaza. Israel, the international community, foreign relief organizations, the UN, Egypt, and even the Palestinian Authority: none of them are offering anything for Gazans but hatred, broken promises, and scapegoating. For all their faults, Hamas actually gave a poo poo about the people of Gaza, and offered them more opportunity and hope than anyone else has bothered to even pretend to. Now that Hamas is out of the picture, who is going to help the Palestinians of Gaza? According to the last seven or eight months, the answer to that question is "nobody" - both their neighbors and a world full of onlookers seem content to let them rot in that bombed-out mess. Even Fatah are more interested in playing Gaza for political points rather than actually helping fix their problems, and the total aid money provided by the entire world to help Gaza rebuild is less than ten percent of the amount of military aid the US gives Israel every year. The people of Gaza do not need finger-pointing, or blame games, or political grandstanding - they need help. Their homes have been destroyed, their jobs have been destroyed, their farms have been destroyed, their water supplies have been destroyed, their hospitals have been destroyed, and their power plant has been destroyed. They've got nothing left, and they've got more important things to worry about than arguing about whose fault it was.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:43

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

If only they didn't fire rockets, they'd have a state or legal equality. Just like they had when rocket fire ceased almost entirely for two years and things got a lot better for Gaza.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:45

Martin Random: Jul 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

Main Paineframe posted:

Unemployment in Gaza doubled from around 108,000 in mid-2013 to over 200,000 in mid-2014. Because of the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, the Gazan economy is one of the most unstable in the world. Its unemployment and GDP per capita are comparable to those of Libya, Liberia or Sierra Leone.
http://www.dailynews.com//general-news/20150325/the-situation-in-gaza-is-so-desperate-that-some-are-predicting-another-war

This article is a little weird. It paints a dire picture of Gaza, but I know that despite the widespread devestation it describes (implying a genocidal aim wrt the blockades/power games/whatever Israel is doing), the population is still growing. When they gave unemployment in hundreds of thousands, rather than percentages, I got suspicious. I checked the population of gaza vs. the 200,000 the article claims is unemployed; that amounts to 11% unemployment.

11% unemployment, given the circumstances of widespread death, destruction, and mayhem that the article describes, is pretty drat good. Way to go Gazans! I'm amazed given the Israeli blockades, lack of basic materials, shortage of even fresh water so that people don't die of exposure, the funding shortfalls, the random Israeili death squads, and all the other poo poo they've managed to have such a low unemployment rate.

Way to go. They're trying. Hard.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 03:47

A Terrible Person: Jan 8, 2012; The Dance of Friendship; Fun Shoe

Main Paineframe posted:

That's kind of small potatoes compared to what's going on in Gaza right now. What's going on in Gaza right now, you ask? Nothing. Absolutely nothing - no reconstruction, no homes, no money, no electricity, no clean water, no hospitals, and barely any international aid. The number of people killed in Protective Edge is tiny compared to the number forced into misery by the devastation brought to bear against Gazan infrastructure. Not only that, but neither Hamas nor the PA has any money to spend on rebuilding, and aid organizations' funds have largely dried up since the international community's pledges of billions of dollars worth of aid appear to have been nothing more than empty promises that they failed to deliver on. Aid organizations are now estimating that, at the current rate, it will take over 100 years to rebuild Gaza to the state it was in a year ago.

http://www.dailynews.com//general-news/20150325/the-situation-in-gaza-is-so-desperate-that-some-are-predicting-another-war

Okay, seriously; gently caress Israel.

# ? Mar 27, 2015 04:07

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

litany of gulps posted:

What exactly do you think the next step is? Are all the pathetic people in Gaza suddenly going to think, hmm, maybe I shouldn't try and kill the Israelis that have ruined my life and slaughtered my family? Obviously they're going to fight in any way possible. What is "not winning" for them that hasn't already been visited upon them, and how does Israel take this to the next step without destroying themselves at the same time, either via endless war or crushing international condemnation (if they ever step things up into the sort of extremes that would actually be required to finish this via oppression)?

Personally, I hope the solution is the US slowly drawing back military aid, since the Israelis apparently can't handle more than a week or so of bombing civilians before they run out of weapons without our taxes paying for their massacres. If they can't do it, they won't do it, and might perhaps have to come to the table and sort some poo poo out.

They have to choose between trying futilely to get revenge, and building a future for their children. They are defeated, the arabs lost their wars with Israel, if they don't learn to accept their situation and build and improve from there, they will only ever get what they have now.

As long as Israeli bombing of Gaza is in response to terrorist violence like the rocket attacks or the tunnel attacks, the US will not countenance anything except full support for Israel. 9/11 and a lot that followed really permanently changed the outlook for palestinians I think, and made non-violence vitally and centrally important to any good future for them.

Gaza needs to learn from the lessons of Gandhi and Dr King if it wants to ever make any progress.

hakimashou fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 27, 2015

# ? Mar 27, 2015 04:14

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# ? May 31, 2024 22:50

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

OwlBot 2000 posted:

Yes, because people in the West Bank who aren't "violent" live the good life and aren't having their land and water taken away from them and getting harassed 24/7.

A much better life than the people in Gaza though wouldn't you agree?

# ? Mar 27, 2015 04:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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