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hakimashou posted:A much better life than the people in Gaza though wouldn't you agree? Would you rather die on your feet, or live on your knees? Note: you live on your knees because you've been kneecapped by border police during a practice night-raid in your neighborhood.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:17
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Martin Random posted:This article is a little weird. It paints a dire picture of Gaza, but I know that despite the widespread devestation it describes (implying a genocidal aim wrt the blockades/power games/whatever Israel is doing), the population is still growing. When they gave unemployment in hundreds of thousands, rather than percentages, I got suspicious. I checked the population of gaza vs. the 200,000 the article claims is unemployed; that amounts to 11% unemployment. You forgot to account for demographics and labor market eligibility. 44.7% of Gaza's population is under the age of 14. Women, who rarely work in Gaza, also make up about half the population. The number of working-age males in Gaza comes out to roughly 400,000, of which about 200,000 are unemployed but looking for work, which matches fairly well with the typically-reported Gazan unemployment rate of 47%. They're trying their best, as shown by the fact that they're not backing off from what appears to be a cultural preference for large families (couples with 5+ kids are pretty common in Gaza) that plays a major role in the continued population growth, but there's no getting around the bleakness of the situation.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:19
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Mass suicide of Palestinians (either by their own hand or through martyrdom) is Bibi's wet dream.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:19
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OwlBot 2000 posted:If only they didn't fire rockets, they'd have a state or legal equality. Just like they had when rocket fire ceased almost entirely for two years and things got a lot better for Gaza. If they didnt dig tunnels or fire rockets, they may not have a state or legal equality, but they would instead have a city that wasn't bombed last summer, and also on top of that, the constructive use of all the materials, time, energy and money utterly wasted on the rockets and tunnels. I am struggling to figure out in what way choosing to use all that to make tunnels and rockets improved their lives and their situation vs using it to build useful things.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:21
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Martin Random posted:This article is a little weird. It paints a dire picture of Gaza, but I know that despite the widespread devestation it describes (implying a genocidal aim wrt the blockades/power games/whatever Israel is doing), the population is still growing. When they gave unemployment in hundreds of thousands, rather than percentages, I got suspicious. I checked the population of gaza vs. the 200,000 the article claims is unemployed; that amounts to 11% unemployment. Wait, did you just take the whole population of Gaza to get that 11% unemployment? Because that would be really skewed given the demographics of Gaza. It is incredibly skewed towards the young, that isn't even taking about the injured/unable to work. I mean, not to say the gazans aren't working or trying, but unemployment is wayyyyy higher than 11%. Buying goods made in Palestine is also one of the best ways to support it imo.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Would you rather die on your feet, or live on your knees? Does the West Bank have a great prevalence of injured people than Gaza? I would have thought all the bombing and fighting in Gaza would have lead to more people getting hurt. And forgive me for being old fashioned, but in what way is being killed because terrorists put rockets near your house "dying on your feet?"
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Mar 27, 2015 04:24
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hakimashou posted:If they didnt dig tunnels or fire rockets, they may not have a state or legal equality, but they would instead have a city that wasn't bombed last summer, and also on top of that, the constructive use of all the materials, time, energy and money utterly wasted on the rockets and tunnels. You don't understand how an organization that is constantly under threat of attack, whether or not it does its part to keep the quiet, might want to built up militarily to have at least a little bit of leverage? How soon do you think Protective Edge would have ended if Hamas did not have the capacity to kill all those soldiers when the ground invasion commenced? Not to mention the use of tunnels in smuggling, an absolute necessity with Israel's arbitrary blocking/indefinite delays in allowing products in or out. Israel could make things very easy, it is the one with the actual power to make a difference. It chose not to, and that is the consequence. Are you seriously arguing that Palestinians have no right to defend themselves? Is history rife with examples of peoples who did not defend themselves from an aggressor and fared well?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:25
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hakimashou posted:If they didnt dig tunnels or fire rockets, they may not have a state or legal equality, but they would instead have a city that wasn't bombed last summer, and also on top of that, the constructive use of all the materials, time, energy and money utterly wasted on the rockets and tunnels. Instead they'd have a city that was bombed a couple of years before and never really rebuilt? When your city is destroyed every couple of years, pretending like the last destruction was the one that really counted is a joke. Why build hospitals and schools when those are target number one for your enemies each time there's an election (war)? What possible reason do they have for not building rockets and tunnels?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:28
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hakimashou posted:If they didnt dig tunnels or fire rockets, they may not have a state or legal equality, but they would instead have a city that wasn't bombed last summer, and also on top of that, the constructive use of all the materials, time, energy and money utterly wasted on the rockets and tunnels. Except the tunnels and rockets had gently caress-all to do with the war, though. As well as disregarding the fact that the tunnels were used for much need smuggling of food and water and construction materials inside gaza.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:28
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You don't understand how an organization that is constantly under threat of attack, whether or not it does its part to keep the quiet, might want to built up militarily to have at least a little bit of leverage? How soon do you think Protective Edge would have ended if Hamas did not have the capacity to kill all those soldiers when the ground invasion commenced? Not to mention the use of tunnels in smuggling, an absolute necessity with Israel's arbitrary blocking/indefinite delays in allowing products in or out. Israel could make things very easy, it is the one with the actual power to make a difference. It chose not to, and that is the consequence. Palestinians may have a right to defend themselves, but it's very hard to argue that Israel has any duty to tolerate threats to its people from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other militant groups with their long histories of terrorist violence. Assuming that palestinians have a right to defend themselves, in what way were the rocket and tunnel attacks any kind of defense? What were they defending against and was the defense effective? In all honesty, the palestinians can never have even the slightest bit of military 'leverage' on israel, in any circumstance ever. They are hopelessly outmatched by the Israeli military. They will never ever be able to seriously contest it, and accepting that fact is vital for them, since it suggests the path that they ought to be taking anyway - a commitment to non-violence like Mahatma Gandhi's or Dr King's.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:29
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hakimashou posted:If they didnt dig tunnels or fire rockets, they may not have a state or legal equality, but they would instead have a city that wasn't bombed last summer, But the 2014 invasion of Gaza had nothing to do with tunnels, rockets, or any resident of Gaza. As I recall, the reason for the war was the kidnapping of three settlers in the West Bank by a radical faction which, since Gaza is blockaded, must necessarily have originated from the West Bank. hakimashou posted:Palestinians may have a right to defend themselves, but it's very hard to argue that Israel has any duty to tolerate threats to its people from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other militant groups with their long histories of terrorist violence. Israel does, however, have a duty to not recklessly bomb civilian areas and infrastructure!
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Mar 27, 2015 04:30
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litany of gulps posted:Instead they'd have a city that was bombed a couple of years before and never really rebuilt? When your city is destroyed every couple of years, pretending like the last destruction was the one that really counted is a joke. Why build hospitals and schools when those are target number one for your enemies each time there's an election (war)? What possible reason do they have for not building rockets and tunnels? Do the Israelis just wake up one morning and, apropos of nothing, decide to bomb Gaza city again? Is it never in response to attacks from Gaza? Isn't it possible that if Hamas and other groups disarmed completely, and stopped attacking Israel, that Israel might stop bombing Gaza? How often does Israel bomb the West Bank? Since the rocket attacks ended last summer, how often was Gaza City bombed?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:31
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Main Paineframe posted:But the 2014 invasion of Gaza had nothing to do with tunnels, rockets, or any resident of Gaza. As I recall, the reason for the war was the kidnapping of three settlers in the West Bank by a radical faction which, since Gaza is blockaded, must necessarily have originated from the West Bank. It wasn't even a radical faction, it was a couple of criminals occasionally hired by Hamas who thought they could cash in big on a good kidnapping, only to have it botched when they killed them instead.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:32
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Main Paineframe posted:But the 2014 invasion of Gaza had nothing to do with tunnels, rockets, or any resident of Gaza. As I recall, the reason for the war was the kidnapping of three settlers in the West Bank by a radical faction which, since Gaza is blockaded, must necessarily have originated from the West Bank. The lengths to which the IDF went to save palestinian lives in the last Gaza conflict was staggering. You get the impression that Israel cares more about the average Gazan than Hamas does, at least about keeping him from harm if he's a non-combatant. I didn't used to think much of Israel, until I saw how they were operating in Gaza, and the stark contrast between them and Hamas.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:33
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hakimashou posted:The lengths to which the IDF went to save palestinian lives in the last Gaza conflict was staggering. You get the impression that Israel cares more about the average Gazan than Hamas does, at least about keeping him from harm if he's a non-combatant. I didn't used to think much of Israel, until I saw how they were operating in Gaza, and the stark contrast between them and Hamas. This might be the first time anyone has thought better of Israel after seeing something it did in Gaza.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:35
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hakimashou posted:Do the Israelis just wake up one morning and, apropos of nothing, decide to bomb Gaza city again? Is it never in response to attacks from Gaza? Why is it that Israel does not deserve to have whole cities leveled when it kills dozens of Palestinians, or whenever militias raid and kill Palestinians or steal their land? Why is it that you accept that only Palestinians, who have much less coherent governmental structures or ability to oversee them, much less so since Israel keeps bombing and killing anything to do with those structures, are more collectively liable for the actions of any single Palestinian than Israel is? What you are expecting is for there not to be a single Palestinian wishing violent harm on Israelis ever as a prerequisite for any future hope of peace. Does that make any sense to you? Do you apply that standard to Israel?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:36
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hakimashou posted:The lengths to which the IDF went to save palestinian lives in the last Gaza conflict was staggering. You get the impression that Israel cares more about the average Gazan than Hamas does, at least about keeping him from harm if he's a non-combatant. I didn't used to think much of Israel, until I saw how they were operating in Gaza, and the stark contrast between them and Hamas. 2000 dead. Destruction that will take a hundred years to rebuild. Where did you see this "compassion"? What are your news sources? In mine Israelis were sitting near the border cheering on bombings, and whole families were deliberately killed for being related to the wrong people.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:38
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hakimashou posted:Do the Israelis just wake up one morning and, apropos of nothing, decide to bomb Gaza city again? Is it never in response to attacks from Gaza? Typically, it's when a right-wing politician wants to spark a war for political gain. And that question could easily be reversed - do the Palestinians just wake up one morning and, apropos of nothing, decide to bomb Israel again? Is it never in response to attacks from Israel? Spikes in rocket activity are often caused by Israeli strikes into Gazan territory. In fact, Gazans seem to suspect that Israel is already preparing for another invasion - and are preparing to defend themselves. Apparently Hamas recruitment is going better than ever thanks to the current dismal state of Gaza. As I said before, despite Hamas' many flaws, they are the only entity of any kind offering any real hope to the residents of Gaza. It's a slim hope, and a dreary one, but no one else has offered up a path for them. http://www.newstatesman.com/2015/03/preparations-coming-war-0 quote:Letter from Gaza: Militant groups on the border with Israel are preparing for war
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Mar 27, 2015 04:38
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hakimashou posted:Do the Israelis just wake up one morning and, apropos of nothing, decide to bomb Gaza city again? Is it never in response to attacks from Gaza? I've been watching this poo poo happen for years now. So has everyone else. Get loving real, you clownfart. 
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Mar 27, 2015 04:39
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Badger of Basra posted:This might be the first time anyone has thought better of Israel after seeing something it did in Gaza. This is the same guy that said we should have preemptively exterminated all of russia after WWII to prevent the cold war. Don't take him seriously.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why is it that Israel does not deserve to have whole cities leveled when it kills dozens of Palestinians, or whenever militias raid and kill Palestinians or steal their land? Why is it that you accept that only Palestinians, who have much less coherent governmental structures or ability to oversee them, much less so since Israel keeps bombing and killing anything to do with those structures, are more collectively liable for the actions of any single Palestinian than Israel is? What you are expecting is for there not to be a single Palestinian wishing violent harm on Israelis ever as a prerequisite for any future hope of peace. Does that make any sense to you? Do you apply that standard to Israel? It's not really a question of 'deserve.' Israel has both a right to exist and a right to defend itself. What makes it different from the palestinians is that it has the capability to defend itself effectively. Israel has a duty to its people to stop attacks originating in Palestine. I'm not expecting anything like that at all. There is a difference between what someone thinks and what someone does. Palestinians can hate israelis all they want, as long as they remain non-violent. There are lots of people all over the world who hate one another but dont kill and attack one another. I imagine many in India hated the british, and many african-americans truly hated their white oppressors in the south, but because they committed to non-violence, they were able to get past their hatred and achieve progress.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:42
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litany of gulps posted:I've been watching this poo poo happen for years now. So has everyone else. Get loving real, you clownfart. Since those rocket attacks ended, how often has Gaza City been bombed?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:43
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hakimashou posted:The lengths to which the IDF went to save palestinian lives in the last Gaza conflict was staggering. You get the impression that Israel cares more about the average Gazan than Hamas does, at least about keeping him from harm if he's a non-combatant. I didn't used to think much of Israel, until I saw how they were operating in Gaza, and the stark contrast between them and Hamas. Yeah, they saved the poo poo out of those Gazans. Those weren't bullets, those were concentrated hugs.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:44
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hakimashou posted:It's not really a question of 'deserve.' No, actually, because there were violent groups in both cases where the non-violent groups ended up being the lesser of two evils, they worked with them. And again, you are expecting Palestinians to collectively be able to stop any single act of violence, and yet you expect none of that from the Israelis, who subject the Palestinians to daily acts of violence, both in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as disenfranchisement. Palestinians must make sure that not a single Palestinian do something violent, or they all must suffer, according to your standards. Where does Israel stand there? Jewish militias such as Hagana, Irgun, and Lehi rejected this line of thought and figured military prowess and physical self-defense is vital for their survival. But Palestinians somehow will earn their freedom through letting themselves be destroyed and ethnically cleansed? You seriously are trolling. 
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Mar 27, 2015 04:46
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Absurd Alhazred posted:2000 dead. Destruction that will take a hundred years to rebuild. Where did you see this "compassion"? What are your news sources? In mine Israelis were sitting near the border cheering on bombings, and whole families were deliberately killed for being related to the wrong people. I think you've got your answer right there already. 2000 dead, most of them military aged males. It's grim, but its true. Sometimes its hard to remember that things could be much worse. An entire month of airstrikes and fighting in a densely populated area and only 2000 people killed. The opposite of indiscriminate killing. The IDF's program of warning shots, text messages, leaflets etc saved many palestinian lives at the cost of IDF military effectiveness. They could have stopped the rocket attacks much more quickly if they didn't care about killing non-combatants. Gaza could be rebuilt much more quickly if Hamas and other militant groups disarmed and committed to nonviolence.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:47
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hakimashou posted:Since those rocket attacks ended, how often has Gaza City been bombed? I doubt the Israelis could get another American bailout right now if they launched another Gaza War, so obviously they aren't. Which ties back to my original point, that we need to stop funding Israeli wars with American dollars, to leash the mad dog and prevent their insanity. If they don't have munitions, how can they massacre civilians? They can't even carry out the simplest military operation without instantly requiring emergency American assistance.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:47
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hakimashou posted:I think you've got your answer right there already. 2000 dead, most of them military aged males. So what? You're probably a military aged male. Can I kill you now? quote:It's grim, but its true. Sometimes its hard to remember that things could be much worse. An entire month of airstrikes and fighting in a densely populated area and only 2000 people killed. The opposite of indiscriminate killing. The IDF's program of warning shots, text messages, leaflets etc saved many palestinian lives at the cost of IDF military effectiveness. They could have stopped the rocket attacks much more quickly if they didn't care about killing non-combatants. Yeah, sure, in the sense that Gush Qatif and the other settlements would be rebuilt and Gaza would be revamped as even more of a refugee camp than it currently is.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:50
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The blame game is not what Gaza needs. These are people who were, in many cases, were not affiliated with Hamas in any way but are now left with no home, no clean water, and barely any food. They don't want to hear people arguing about whose fault it is or who should be blamed. Farmers and construction workers don't want to hear what "Palestinians" should have done differently to not have their lives ruined by forces totally out of control. Arguing about whether it's Israel's fault or Hamas' fault doesn't do anything meaningful to change the fact that hundreds of thousands of people are homeless, basic infrastructure is hosed, and so on. Regardless of what led up to the current situation, right now these are civilians with no shelter, no employment, and unreliable access to even the most basic daily necessities like food and water. There is no justification whatsoever for this situation. A number of young children are known to have literally frozen to death in Gaza over the winter, because most places where one could take refuge from the elements were bombed to rubble. You know whose fault that is? It's the fault of everybody who continues to allow Gaza to languish in the current crisis, over half a year after all that destruction was originally caused.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:51
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, actually, because there were violent groups in both cases where the non-violent groups ended up being the lesser of two evils, they worked with them. And again, you are expecting Palestinians to collectively be able to stop any single act of violence, and yet you expect none of that from the Israelis, who subject the Palestinians to daily acts of violence, both in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as disenfranchisement. Palestinians must make sure that not a single Palestinian do something violent, or they all must suffer, according to your standards. Where does Israel stand there? I am seriously not trolling. It is a fact that the West Bank has better outcomes than Gaza. It is a fact that violence isn't just failing the palestinians, it is a catastrophe for them of enormous proportions. Violent opposition to israel *is* hopeless. There really is *no* good outcome from it. Hamas will *never* be able to force Israel to submit to its wishes. But israel *can* force whatever it wants on the palestinians because it is a thousand times stronger. Attacking an enemy a thousand times stronger is futile, its suicide. It's a game the palestinians will never be able to win. They cannot compete with israel militarily, they can't even begin to compete. So, they need to use a different strategy and take a different tack. People at rallies in Europe might sympathize with the ski mask wearing, Allahu Ackbar chanting, ak47-shooting, suicide bomber dress-up 'freedom fighters,' but in the real world, after 9/11 and all the other problems with islamist terrorism, this is a deal breaker for the people who have the power and make the decisions. Violence against a non-violent movement is wrong, it has been shown again and again to incur the condemnation of all the decent people of the world. The palestinians need to learn the lessons of Mahatma Gandhi in India and Dr. King in the United States.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:53
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hakimashou posted:The lengths to which the IDF went to save palestinian lives in the last Gaza conflict was staggering. You get the impression that Israel cares more about the average Gazan than Hamas does, at least about keeping him from harm if he's a non-combatant. I didn't used to think much of Israel, until I saw how they were operating in Gaza, and the stark contrast between them and Hamas. quote:2,220 killed, 1,492 civilians (551 children, 299 women) quote:According to Assaf Sharon of Tel Aviv University, the IDF was pressured by politicians to unleash unnecessary violence whose basic purpose was 'to satisfy a need for vengeance,' which the politicians themselves tried to whip up in Israel's population. quote:Amnesty International stated that: "Israeli forces have carried out attacks that have killed hundreds of civilians, including through the use of precision weaponry such as drone-fired missiles, and attacks using munitions such as artillery, which cannot be precisely targeted, on very densely populated residential areas, such as Shuja'iyya. They have also directly attacked civilian objects." quote:On 5 November 2014, Amnesty International published a report examining eight cases where the IDF targeted homes, resulting in the deaths of 111 people, of whom 104 were civilians. Barred from access to Gaza by Israel since 2012, it conducted its research remotely, supported by two contracted Gaza-based fieldworkers who conducted multiple visits of each site to interview survivors, and consulted with military experts to evaluate photographic and video material. It concludes, in every case, that "there was a failure to take necessary precautions to avoid excessive harm to civilians and civilian property, as required by international humanitarian law" and "no prior warning was given to the civilian residents to allow them to escape." quote:There were seven shellings at UNRWA facilities in the Gaza Strip which took place between 21 July and 3 August 2014 during the Israeli-Gaza conflict. At the time of the shellings the UNRWA facilities were being used as shelters for Palestinians and as a result of the shellings at least 46 civilians, including 10 UN staff died. quote:Amnesty International said that "although the Israeli authorities claim to be warning civilians in Gaza, a consistent pattern has emerged that their actions do not constitute an "effective warning" under international humanitarian law."[362] Human Rights Watch concurred.[436] Many Gazans, when asked, told journalists that they remained in their houses simply because they had nowhere else to go.[511] OCHA's spokesman has said "there is literally no safe place for civilians" in Gaza.[512] Roof knocking has been condemned as unlawful by Amnesty International[506] and Human Rights Watch[359] as well as the United Nations Fact Finding Mission in the 2008 war. quote:Israel targeted many homes in this conflict. UNWRA official Robert Turner estimated that 7,000 homes were demolished and 89,000 were damaged, some 10,000 of them severely.[513] This has led to many members of the same family being killed. B'Tselem documented 59 incidents of bombing and shelling, in which 458 people were killed.[495] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Alleged_violations_by_Israel
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Mar 27, 2015 04:54
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litany of gulps posted:I doubt the Israelis could get another American bailout right now if they launched another Gaza War, so obviously they aren't. Which ties back to my original point, that we need to stop funding Israeli wars with American dollars, to leash the mad dog and prevent their insanity. If they don't have munitions, how can they massacre civilians? They can't even carry out the simplest military operation without instantly requiring emergency American assistance. Why wouldn't Israel be able to get another bailout? Finish the thought. Israel wouldn't be able to get another bailout if it launched another Gaza war... because Gaza stopped firing rockets and staging tunnel attacks, and there is an absence of a clear defensive interest in fighting in Gaza.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:56
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hakimashou posted:Violence against a non-violent movement is wrong What relevance does that have to this situation? Have you been keeping up with this conflict at all for the past few decades?
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Mar 27, 2015 04:56
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hakimashou posted:I am seriously not trolling. It is a fact that the West Bank has better outcomes than Gaza. It is a fact that violence isn't just failing the palestinians, it is a catastrophe for them of enormous proportions. Violent opposition to israel *is* hopeless. There really is *no* good outcome from it. Hamas will *never* be able to force Israel to submit to its wishes. But israel *can* force whatever it wants on the palestinians because it is a thousand times stronger. "Give up because you are outnumbered, go down as a sheep to slaughter." What is it in the West Bank that is great exactly? The water shortages? The electricity shortages? The ever reducing amount of land and property available for Palestinians? There have been and are plenty of non-violent movements in the West Bank, they get shat upon by the Israeli establishment and lead nowhere. Israel will go to them when violent factions and international pressure make that the only option, and not before.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:57
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Main Paineframe posted:You forgot to account for demographics and labor market eligibility. 44.7% of Gaza's population is under the age of 14. Women, who rarely work in Gaza, also make up about half the population. The number of working-age males in Gaza comes out to roughly 400,000, of which about 200,000 are unemployed but looking for work, which matches fairly well with the typically-reported Gazan unemployment rate of 47%. They're trying their best, as shown by the fact that they're not backing off from what appears to be a cultural preference for large families (couples with 5+ kids are pretty common in Gaza) that plays a major role in the continued population growth, but there's no getting around the bleakness of the situation. Jesus. I knew my analysis was somewhat hamfisted. Thanks guys. 44.7% is loving brutal.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:57
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hakimashou posted:Why wouldn't Israel be able to get another bailout? Finish the thought. Oh, weird. I thought it was because the Israelis were widely hated on the international stage and were making themselves hated on the only stage where they still had wide support, in the United States. If they followed up their expensive US funded massacre campaign with ANOTHER US funded massacre campaign while huge numbers of civilians were suffering visibly, it might just further deteriorate the last bastion of support they have on this planet. They suffered a massive negative publicity campaign with the last Gaza war, and have squandered a lot of goodwill with partisan antics over the past few months. If they doubled down on that with another war, they'd rapidly find themselves hosed over completely. Their economy sucks and is based on nothing but US support. Their military is based on US support. They have nothing but US backing, and they're doing everything they can to make sure that doesn't last.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:01
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litany of gulps posted:What relevance does that have to this situation? Have you been keeping up with this conflict at all for the past few decades? Yes, and the palestinians have never been able to get meaningful support from the western world because they can never claim any kind of moral high ground as long as they continue to be violent. Least of all after 9/11.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:07
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hakimashou posted:Yes, and the palestinians have never been able to get meaningful support from the western world because they can never claim any kind of moral high ground as long as they continue to be violent. Least of all after 9/11. Uhh, you misinterpret. They haven't gotten meaningful support because of Nazis and they're brown, while their oppressors are white. Get with the program, rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:08
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litany of gulps posted:Uhh, you misinterpret. They haven't gotten meaningful support because of Nazis and they're brown, while their oppressors are white. Get with the program, rear end in a top hat. Indians are brown too, and well, African-Americans, they're black! And yet, non-violent resistance to their white oppressors worked for both of them.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:10
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hakimashou posted:Indians are brown too, and well, African-Americans, they're black! I too remember when African American non violent resistance got them equality with their oppressors. That was a good day in our glorious history. Also, I remember when the Indians weren't super poor and shed the yoke of colonial oppression through their mighty non violent protests. Oh wait, India is a shithole and per capita is one of the worst, most rapey places on the planet to be. Oops!
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Mar 27, 2015 05:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"Give up because you are outnumbered, go down as a sheep to slaughter." What is it in the West Bank that is great exactly? The water shortages? The electricity shortages? The ever reducing amount of land and property available for Palestinians? There have been and are plenty of non-violent movements in the West Bank, they get shat upon by the Israeli establishment and lead nowhere. Israel will go to them when violent factions and international pressure make that the only option, and not before. Violent factions cant ever put enough pressure on Israel, and international pressure won't happen as long as violent factions dominate palestine. They have to commit to nonviolence in order to get international pressure on their side.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:14
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