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Effectronica posted:This is why Kuwait is the 19th province of Iraq. Kuwait had democratic friends and presented an opportunity to end the cold war. Palestine doesn't, and support does nothing for democracy.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:56
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hakimashou posted:Palestinians aren't subhumans, they don't have any less dignity than Israelis or Americans or anyone else. Do you actually think Israel officially annexed the West bank or something?
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Mar 28, 2015 16:57
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hakimashou posted:Is "reacting" a good or constructive thing? Does it lead to better or worse outcomes for Palestinians? So far the best outcomes seem to be when they react, and Israel overreacts, and the the rest of the world takes notice again. Best is an extremely relative term here...
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Mar 28, 2015 16:57
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hakimashou posted:Is "reacting" a good or constructive thing? Does it lead to better or worse outcomes for Palestinians? I don't know but it's pretty cool how you got everyone itt "reacting" rather effortlessly, well played. MIGF you could stand to learn a thing or two from this strapping young fascist, he's got moxy.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:57
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hakimashou posted:Kuwait had powerful allies, the Arabs who fought israel didn't. France had more powerful allies than Germany in ww2. Just happens to be how things work. Kuwait lost a war with Iraq. The strong ate the weak. Then the rest of the world decided to go against the natural order, and spewed a bunch of bullshit about how invasions and annexations are wrong. As a consequence, the USA has bled itself over and over again in the Middle East for its sins against nature.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I guess I should have thrown in a few more ironicats, I sometimes forget how it is in a forum where people must appear the most leftest Ironicat is specifically used to point out hypocrisy in whatever you're responding to, in colloquial goonspeak. To me, your joke would have been clearer without the ironicat. I would recommend  for delineating obvious sarcasm, friend!hakimashou posted:Is "reacting" a good or constructive thing? Does it lead to better or worse outcomes for Palestinians? hakimashou posted:Kuwait had powerful allies, the Arabs who fought israel didn't. France had more powerful allies than Germany in ww2. Just happens to be how things work. So if we had been posting in 1940, you'd happily be supporting Nazi Germany and deriding the Jews, gays and other undesirables for not surrendering hard enough, correct? I think that's all we need from you.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:00
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Effectronica posted:Kuwait lost a war with Iraq. The strong ate the weak. Then the rest of the world decided to go against the natural order, and spewed a bunch of bullshit about how invasions and annexations are wrong. As a consequence, the USA has bled itself over and over again in the Middle East for its sins against nature. War with Iraq presented an opportunity to end the cold war and win Bush re-election. It was a supreme accomplishment of James Baker; like most foreign policy, its 3d chess with both foreign and domestic considerations which are not directly related to the issue at hand.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:01
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There's something absolutely hilarious about people defending Israel by saying "land is just land, dude" and "can't you just live somewhere else?"
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Mar 28, 2015 17:01
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Bel Shazar posted:So far the best outcomes seem to be when they react, and Israel overreacts, and the the rest of the world takes notice again. Martyring their children deliberately so that their powerless sympathizers sympathize with them more is not, in my view, a good outcome. It's a big reason I dislike Hamas so much. It's like stabbing a lion with a stick until it becomes enraged, the at the last minute tossing you kid out for the lion to eat, to make the point that lions are bad because they eat your kids.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:03
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Bel Shazar posted:So far the best outcomes seem to be when they react, and Israel overreacts, and the the rest of the world takes notice again. So far the best outcomes seem to come when Netanyahu panics a couple of days before the elections and unceremoniously shits all over policies he's been publicly claiming to support for two decades, it also seems to help when he gets into personal beefs with Obama, it seems to me like we only need a few more elections and a couple more Obamas and we're good to go.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:04
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Naked Lincoln posted:There's something absolutely hilarious about people defending Israel by saying "land is just land, dude" and "can't you just live somewhere else?" Not really. The land is important to both people's, but they can't really share it. So, as is so often the case when two peoples want the same thing that they can't share, they fought over it. Israel won, so it's israel's. The Palestinians have to find a way to live with that if they want a good future for their children.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:05
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I never said it was a good outcome... just that it has been the best so far. Though fair point about Netanyahu tripping over his own dick.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:05
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hakimashou posted:Martyring their children deliberately so that their powerless sympathizers sympathize with them more is not, in my view, a good outcome. It's a big reason I dislike Hamas so much. Those dastardly civil rights activists, putting their children in the way of dogs and fire hoses and bombs.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:05
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hakimashou posted:Martyring their children deliberately so that their powerless sympathizers sympathize with them more is not, in my view, a good outcome. It's a big reason I dislike Hamas so much. Seriously, gently caress that monster Martin Luther King. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade_(civil_rights) Naked Lincoln fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 17:06
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hakimashou posted:Palestinians aren't subhumans, they don't have any less dignity than Israelis or Americans or anyone else. ? But Hamas is fighting against current-day Israeli oppression of Palestinians, not whatever dumb idiot strawman continuation of the 1948 war you're making up.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:07
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Effectronica posted:Kuwait lost a war with Iraq. The strong ate the weak. Then the rest of the world decided to go against the natural order, and spewed a bunch of bullshit about how invasions and annexations are wrong. As a consequence, the USA has bled itself over and over again in the Middle East for its sins against nature. The natural order isn't countries in a vacuum. It's me and my friends vs you and your friends.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:08
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The axis nations did the 'honorable' thing and surrendered unconditionally only after the allies burned an astounding number of cities to the ground. There's an argument to be made that a negotiated surrender would have resulted in far fewer civilian casualties, and therefore that Potsdam was a moral catastrophe.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:09
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hakimashou posted:The natural order isn't countries in a vacuum. It's me and my friends vs you and your friends. If the US didn't want its "friend" in Kuwait to get gobbled up, it should have defended Kuwait instead of wringing its hands and crying after the fact and leading a teary invasion of Iraq in response.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:10
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Well, bored with engaging trolls. Here, have some more nightmares http://www.thestar.com.my/Opinion/Columnists/Global-Trends/Profile/Articles/2015/03/02/Gaza-under-fire-six-months-on/ quote:HUNDREDS of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza are still homeless or live in the rubble of the 20,000 houses that were destroyed and 80,000 others damaged by Israeli bombs and artillery fire.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:11
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Main Paineframe posted:? But Hamas is fighting against current-day Israeli oppression of Palestinians, not whatever dumb idiot strawman continuation of the 1948 war you're making up. Hamas fights for the destruction of Israel and the death of Israelis, and doesn't keep it a secret. In what way did the rockets fight against the oppression of Palestinians? What is the cause and effect chain between "fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli population centers" and "hinder or end the Israelis ability to oppress Palestinians?" I've been wondering this since last summer and nobody's ever explained it. In my way of looking at things, killing random Israeli civilians doesn't have any ameliorating effect at all on how israel treats Gaza. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 17:12
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hakimashou posted:Martyring their children deliberately so that their powerless sympathizers sympathize with them more is not, in my view, a good outcome. It's a big reason I dislike Hamas so much. Why? They're bigger and stronger than their children, they have every right to throw them at lions if that's what they want, since we've clearly established that you don't think killing children is wrong as long as nobody stops you.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:13
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, bored with engaging trolls. Here, have some more nightmares That's what you get when you attack a foreign nation. You aren't going to be rewarded with development funds, nobody is coming to help. Next time, those individuals should police themselves and prevent attacks on foreign nations if they wish to avoid counterfire. Kajeesus posted:Why? They're bigger and stronger than their children, they have every right to throw them at lions if that's what they want, since we've clearly established that you don't think killing children is wrong as long as nobody stops you. If you throw your children at lions, don't howl injustice when they're mauled.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's what you get when you attack a foreign nation. You aren't going to be rewarded with development funds, nobody is coming to help. Yeah, watching the Gaza feeds I couldn't help but think "why the hell do they put up with this? Haven't they got guns in Gaza? Why aren't these people more terrified of being shot in their beds or on the streets or hanged from lamp posts by their own people for shooting these rockets than they are of the Israelis catching them???"
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Mar 28, 2015 17:17
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I for once would like to take a brave stance against feeding children to lions, regardless of their ethnicity or religious background.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:17
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hakimashou posted:The natural order isn't countries in a vacuum. It's me and my friends vs you and your friends. And who chooses to be whose friends is affected strongly by concepts such as "legitimacy", "justice", "proportionality", and so on. As I said earlier, but was completely ignored, it's easy to smugly embrace realpolitik when you're strong. But it's the responsibility of the strong to ensure the welfare of the weak because you can't be certain it will always be you on top - a fact that Jewish history stands as a remarkable testament to. If you want to eject the touchy-feely, and talk "interests" and "power", it's worth noting that demonstrating your total and complete dominance by absolutely subjugating a rebellious people might make you feel more secure today, if you alienate your few remaining allies and make legitimate the arguments of your enemies, what have you really gained?
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Mar 28, 2015 17:18
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Effectronica posted:If the US didn't want its "friend" in Kuwait to get gobbled up, it should have defended Kuwait instead of wringing its hands and crying after the fact and leading a teary invasion of Iraq in response. Maybe so, but instead it was the other way. When you're president, it can be your way.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:18
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hakimashou posted:Maybe so, but instead it was the other way. The US defied the natural order of things, again and again, by not annexing Iraq both times that we have invaded it. As a consequence, until we fully commit ourselves to world conquest and an orgy of bloodshed, we will continue to suffer and die around the world.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:21
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PhilippAchtel posted:And who chooses to be whose friends is affected strongly by concepts such as "legitimacy", "justice", "proportionality", and so on. There is more to it than that though. The powerful nations of the world have all come to take a very dim view of Islamist terrorism. Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa martyrs brigades and whoever else are on the wrong side of a bigger fight. And that's a fact that isn't likely to change any time soon, which makes it a very pertinent fact for the Palestinians and one which should weigh heavily on their decisions.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:21
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The Israelis do not consider themselves to be strong, nor do they consider any of their alliances with the west to be anything more than 'weddings of convenience'.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:22
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The Israelis do not consider themselves to be strong, nor do they consider any of their alliances with the west to be anything more than 'weddings of convenience'. The Israeli Palestinian conflict is intensely complicated by these kinds of factors, factors that aren't part of highly abstracted, generalized, "a people do this and a people do that and which people are right" kinds of thinking.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:25
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hakimashou posted:Palestinians aren't subhumans, they don't have any less dignity than Israelis or Americans or anyone else. Even the Allies did not kill all Germans/Japanese. And they did not expel them from their homeland, only reduced Germany to give land back to the Poles that they lost in the several partitions of Poland. Israel on the other hand has conquered the Palestinians, and neither gives them a reduced share of Palestine nor makes them citizens of Israel.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:28
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Here is an honest question: If Hamas and Islamic Jihad had the capability to kill tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of Israelis, do you think they would do it? What if they had a weapon that could kill all the Israelis?
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Mar 28, 2015 17:29
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The Israelis do not consider themselves to be strong, nor do they consider any of their alliances with the west to be anything more than 'weddings of convenience'. Well, those in power are doing everything they can to make their perception the reality, which is a true shame. Israel has a real opportunity to undermine the arguments of the Islamist right by demonstrating that compromise and moderation can lead to positive outcomes in the region for its Arab neighbors. Instead, it's so stuck in the mindset of fifty years ago - a time when it really did have its back against the wall - that it provides its enemies all the ammunition they need to condemn it and consign it to destruction. Hoping that you stay strong enough to stand resolute against all the surrounding nations that hate your guts while thumbing your nose at the values of your closest allies is not a sustainable position for Israel to take.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:30
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hakimashou posted:There is more to it than that though. The powerful nations of the world have all come to take a very dim view of Islamist terrorism. Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa martyrs brigades and whoever else are on the wrong side of a bigger fight. You say that while ignoring that in this specific context, international sympathy is overwhelmingly with the Palestinians, not Israel.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:32
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hakimashou posted:Here is an honest question: Yes, they would, which is why they cannot be allowed to exist in an era of a nuclear Iran. Their existance poses an existential threat to Israel, and Israeli policy will develop accordingly. Is this about the land, or the people? You can't have both, so which would they prefer? Clearly, the militants want land and don't care about people. Policy must respond accordingly.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:36
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hakimashou posted:Here is an honest question: They would certainly threaten to do it, in order to use the threat of such a weapon to force Israel to make concessions and end the war and oppression. They might even fire off a test shot to show they're serious, or even a second one, since nobody condemned them the first time they destroyed a defenseless Japanese city with a doomsday device for the sole purpose of intimidation. Oops, wait, did I get my situations mixed up there? Sorry, I'm just so uninterested in your bullshit strawman that it's hard staying awake enough to kick it to the curb!
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Mar 28, 2015 17:36
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PhilippAchtel posted:You say that while ignoring that in this specific context, international sympathy is overwhelmingly with the Palestinians, not Israel. Really? How much military aid, backing in the UN, etc does Hamas and Islamic jihad get vs Israel? How many fighter jets have been sold to the Palestinians, how did the world react to the idea of a palestinian nuclear arsenal? How closely do the worlds intelligence services work with Palestinian intelligence services, and so on, and so forth. How about with other groups that want to destroy Israel, are they well liked and well provided for?
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Mar 28, 2015 17:38
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Main Paineframe posted:They would certainly threaten to do it, That's all that matters, as Israel is a democratic nation, and such threats must be taken at their word if the Israeli administration wishes to responsibly represent the interests of the Israeli people.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:38
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Main Paineframe posted:They would certainly threaten to do it, in order to use the threat of such a weapon to force Israel to make concessions and end the war and oppression. They might even fire off a test shot to show they're serious, or even a second one, since nobody condemned them the first time they destroyed a defenseless Japanese city with a doomsday device for the sole purpose of intimidation. Oops, wait, did I get my situations mixed up there? Sorry, I'm just so uninterested in your bullshit strawman that it's hard staying awake enough to kick it to the curb! "Al mawt li israel" is just a joke they tell one another is it? If you say this, but they say that, I have to take their word for it and privilige their statements because they are them and you are you, you know? hakimashou fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 17:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's all that matters, as Israel is a democratic nation, and such threats must be taken at their word if the Israeli administration wishes to responsibly represent the interests of the Israeli people. Indeed, the Israeli government has a moral and political responsibility to protect its people. Which brings us full circle to the issue of Hamas's apparently sacred right to "respond" to israeli actions. There is a difference between "responding" and "reacting" in the eye-for-an-eye sense and actually acting to protect. It's never been made clear to me how firing rockets indiscriminately at israeli population centers is meant to keep Palestinians from harm.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:45
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