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hakimashou posted:It's never been made clear to me how firing rockets indiscriminately at israeli population centers is meant to keep Palestinians from harm. Because, before now, it would get Gaza a whole buncha international aid money. With the rise of ISIS, Iranian nuclear ambitions, and Sinai terrorism, there are more important issues in the region than Palestinian howling. Hamas made a gamble, and they lost. Now they have to live with the consequences.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:48
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hakimashou posted:Hamas fights for the destruction of Israel and the death of Israelis, and doesn't keep it a secret. Well two things. First, rockets demonstrate Hamas' will to respond to Israeli agression, no matter how effective these rockets are. Rockets they are a way to show that Israel can't attack Gaza without retaliation, without consequence. They embody resistance and vengeance. Symbols are important. Second, do you remember what led to the end of Protective Edge? The IDF didn't achieve any of their stated goals (destroying the tunnels, crippling Hamas' rocket launching ability). Israeli wariness led to the end of Protective Edge - people in the south who were tired of having to go to a shelter every so often, but most importantly the military losses the IDF suffered. What was it? 50 dead soldiers? This hurt morale a lot, and Bibi took a severe dive in the polls because of that. So in a way, while it wasn't simply rockets, Palestinian use of force effectively made the war as it was pursued untenable for Israel. Daily rocket fire showed that the IDF was failing at its stated goals, wasting soldiers and huge amounts of money. Now, your turn. In what way did Protective Edge (and the previous escalations) bring security to the Israeli people? What is the cause and effect chain between "actually target heavily populated areas and UN buildings with airstrikes" and "bring security to the Israelis"? Here's a hint. The violence perpetrated by the IDF and Israeli police during operations Brother's Keeper and later on Protective Edge is the sole reason why rockets were fired in the first place.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:50
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hakimashou posted:"Al mawt li israel" is just a joke they tell one another is it? How serious do you think that "Maavet La’aravim" is? Hell, I'd say the implications of the phrase itself are worse than yours, since this one calls for the destruction of an entire ethnic group rather than just a single country. Crowd Shouts 'Death to the Arabs' at an Israeli Wedding of Jew and Muslim ‘Death to Arabs’ sprayed on Arab-Jewish school in Jerusalem Video emerges of Israeli mob shouting “Death to the Arabs” that attacked Palestinians at Jerusalem mall Israeli Peace Demo Violently Disrupted, Dozens Injured as Counter-Protesters Yell "Death to Arabs" Is “Death to Arabs” just another football chant? (this last one refers to the fact that "Death to Arabs" has become a popular soccer chant in Israel, I'm not even loving kidding)
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Mar 28, 2015 17:51
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hakimashou posted:Really? You refuse to believe there is such a thing as soft power, so it's no wonder your immediate response is to talk about guns and bombs and jets. How many jets did it take to topple the apartheid regime in South Africa? And given recent events, you'd be a fool to believe the wind is blowing in Israel's favour.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:53
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Effectronica posted:This is why Kuwait is the 19th province of Iraq. It is why Transnistra, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Crimea are de facto part of Russia. Flowers For Algeria posted:
The sole reason? No others? Does this explain why Hamas launched their campaign of suicide bombings in 1996? Why did they escalate violence after the Israeli withdrawal in 2005? Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 17:54
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PhilippAchtel posted:Well, those in power are doing everything they can to make their perception the reality, which is a true shame. Israel has a real opportunity to undermine the arguments of the Islamist right by demonstrating that compromise and moderation can lead to positive outcomes in the region for its Arab neighbors. Instead, it's so stuck in the mindset of fifty years ago - a time when it really did have its back against the wall - that it provides its enemies all the ammunition they need to condemn it and consign it to destruction. The perception, from the get go, was that "It is not important what the gentiles say it is merely important what the Jews do". Also big lol at the notion that the values of 'our closest allies' are somehow opposed to the wanton slaughter of muslims, last I checked 'our closest allies' consider it a national sport and would travel to the other half of the globe to slaughter hundreds of thousands and throw an entire region 20 times the size of Israel into decades of chaos and genocide. I mean if you want to criticize Israel on a moral level I won't argue, if you wish though to criticize the efficacy of its actions from a 'historical survivalism' point of view it would require somewhat more convincing arguments, I disagree with current-gen Likud policies but if you'd go to any of those guys and say "but you have an opportunity to discredit the Islamic right in the eyes of the entire world" they'd just laugh at your face, the Islamic right and the west are actually not on great terms you know. PhilippAchtel posted:How many jets did it take to topple the apartheid regime in South Africa? It would actually be foolish to assume that the West (and America in particular) desire to topple Israel on any level, they merely want Israel to cede control over a portion of the west bank, which is part of the reason why Israeli adherence to settlement expansion and procrastination actually makes sense from a strategic perspective.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:57
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Well two things. This fetishization of "reacting" and "responding" isn't healty, literally, for Palestinians. They have already lost and been beaten, it isn't an ongoing conflict or a contest between equal powers. If the Palestinians want to spend eternity living just like they are now, there is no better policy to take than "if you shoots at me I shoots at you!" There are a lot of reasons for this, not the least of which is that Israel is a million times better at it, and that since 9/11 nobody who counts really likes Islamist violence anymore. It's plain to see that eye-for-an-eye "responses" by Hamas may gratify their vanity, but they don't help make Palestinian lives any better, instead they always make them worse. In response to,your question: operation protective edge diminished the ability of Hamas to harm Israelis by suppressing their rocket attacks and destroying tunnels that infiltrated israel. Simple as that.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:58
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We all know that Israelis are fair and peaceful toward Palestinians by nature, and if mean old Hamas would only stop asking for it, Palestinians would be treated with fairness and equality and no hatred at all! There's definitely no racism or anything against Palestinians in Israel!
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Mar 28, 2015 17:59
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PhilippAchtel posted:You refuse to believe there is such a thing as soft power, so it's no wonder your immediate response is to talk about guns and bombs and jets. I do nothing of the sort! Tell me about palestine's soft power. Compare and contrast it with israels and the United states.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:59
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Palestine's is growing while Israel's is shrinking.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:00
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hakimashou posted:This fetishization of "reacting" and "responding" isn't healty, literally, for Palestinians. What should they do if shot at? Lay down and die quietly? Considering Israel's racism toward non-Jews, disdain for international opinion, and policies of ethnic cleansing, they can hardly count on Israel to stop shooting.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:07
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Main Paineframe posted:We all know that Israelis are fair and peaceful toward Palestinians by nature, and if mean old Hamas would only stop asking for it, Palestinians would be treated with fairness and equality and no hatred at all! There's definitely no racism or anything against Palestinians in Israel! You could find a lot of examples of equally awful things said by Americans. I know it lacks the emotional impact, but "nuke Afghanistan" and indeed "shoulda nuked Russia!" express more homicidal ideas. And yet, the U.S. constitution doesn't call for the annihilation of our enemies and all their friends and neighbors, nor, to my knowledge, does the Israeli constitution demand the destruction of all arabs within a certain distance from Jerusalem. One thing is not like the others. It's hamas and Islamic jihad.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:07
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Main Paineframe posted:What should they do if shot at? Lay down and die quietly? Considering Israel's racism toward non-Jews, disdain for international opinion, and policies of ethnic cleansing, they can hardly count on Israel to stop shooting. I know something they can count on for sure though. 100% guaranteed. They can count on Israel to shoot back, hard.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:09
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For all the ICC talk, Fatah actively oppresses Hamas and there are decent odds that they collaborated with Israel on Protective Edge. Heck, Sisi and the Sauds may have been on board too. Fatah will have more soft power to fight their civil wars until that eventually blows up in their face, and the political climate in the US is going to get a lot friendlier to Netanyahu with elections looming next year.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:12
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Miltank posted:Palestine's is growing while Israel's is shrinking. Israel is producing gains in rates of human development while Palestine is declining, yes. Gee, almost as if that vould be linked to islamist militarism! Who woulda thunk.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:12
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Kim Jong Il posted:It is why Transnistra, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Crimea are de facto part of Russia. It's a good thing I didn't say any kind of absolute about how the world worked, then.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:14
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hakimashou posted:You could find a lot of examples of equally awful things said by Americans. I know it lacks the emotional impact, but "nuke Afghanistan" and indeed "shoulda nuked Russia!" express more homicidal ideas. America is a lovely country full to the brim with mouthbreathing racists and and petty tyrants who don't need the Constitution to justify their cancerous worldview, they have the Bible thank you very much. You are not winning any points there.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:17
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hakimashou posted:I do nothing of the sort! Your entire argument is that you think Palestinians are weak, and therefore it is right and proper that they are weak, and therefore they should stop protesting and just give up. That's the entirety of your argument. Then what's the point of this argument? They are weak and they are done and they will perish. Why are you bothering us with this inane discussion?
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Mar 28, 2015 18:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The perception, from the get go, was that "It is not important what the gentiles say it is merely important what the Jews do". Also big lol at the notion that the values of 'our closest allies' are somehow opposed to the wanton slaughter of muslims, last I checked 'our closest allies' consider it a national sport and would travel to the other half of the globe to slaughter hundreds of thousands and throw an entire region 20 times the size of Israel into decades of chaos and genocide. Responding to the idea of discrediting Islamism to "the entire world", by claiming that "the west" already dislikes Islamism betrays a belief that "the west" is the only audience in the entire world worth appealing to. Discrediting, or at least not reinforcing, Islamist arguments about Israel is about appealing to moderates in the Muslim world. If Likud would laugh in my face at the idea of undermining Islamists who use Israeli oppression as a rallying cry by simply not acting like such an unapologetic oppressive force, I would take that as the highest of compliments. Israel's closest allies have often behaved - and, in many cases, continue to behave - irresponsibly in the region, it's true. But the South African example is again instructive. If you put forward the argument that "lol if you think the racist people and government of the United States will go to bat for a bunch of black Africans", you would have been in good company. And then it happened. You don't see the seeds of a similar shift in veiled threats to withdraw veto protection at the UN? Public opinion is already strongly against Israel in Europe. Especially given the recent actions of Netanyahu and the drop in support amongst Democrats, how long until a populist figure breaks the dam and openly runs against the US being "beholden to the will of a foreign government"?
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Mar 28, 2015 18:20
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Elizabeth Warren isn't running and is pro-Israel. Who is this figure and how can they win in the American political system? Obama is overwhelmingly pro-Israel and this recent spat is only due to Netanyahu overplaying his hand. The idea that the US actively cares about human rights when we are propping up Sisi and the Sauds is...not realistic. We care about our interests and nothing else. We don't want peace, we just want to keep things calm enough so our allies have enough leeway to go along without too much internal strife.
Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 18:25
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hakimashou posted:This fetishization of "reacting" and "responding" isn't healty, literally, for Palestinians. When a few rockets were fired following Brother's Keeper, Israel had the choice to not escalate, and rocket launches would have abated in days, as they had always done in the past after a minor crisis. And yet Israel escalated. quote:They have already lost and been beaten, it isn't an ongoing conflict or a contest between equal powers. The IP conflict isn't Rome versus Carthage. It's not the US and the USSR versus the Axis. The goals are different, the context is different, the ways the war is being fought are different, the populations' perceptions are different, and international law and pressure does not work the same way as it did. As I said earlier, this is not a game of Civilization IV. quote:If the Palestinians want to spend eternity living just like they are now, there is no better policy to take than "if you shoots at me I shoots at you!" There are a lot of reasons for this, not the least of which is that Israel is a million times better at it, and that since 9/11 nobody who counts really likes Islamist violence anymore. The alternative, which is doing nothing, does not present a future that is any less bleak. If the Palestinians want to spend eternity living just like they are now, they could just as well do nothing. quote:It's plain to see that eye-for-an-eye "responses" by Hamas may gratify their vanity, but they don't help make Palestinian lives any better, instead they always make them worse. quote:In response to,your question: operation protective edge diminished the ability of Hamas to harm Israelis by suppressing their rocket attacks and destroying tunnels that infiltrated israel. Furthermore, the operation itself harmed many more Israelis than inaction would have. Protective Edge was a net loss in lives, money, public opinion, and it set back the peace process even more. Do you realize that in the two years before the operation, there were virtually no rocket launches into Israel? How wasn't that an ideal situation already or Israel?
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Mar 28, 2015 18:29
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Perhaps if israel didn't want a radicalized Palestine they should stop assassinating moderate Palestinian leaders?!?!?! rly makes u think
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Mar 28, 2015 18:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:There's no actual evidence that Hamas has moderated, only that Israel has destroyed their capabilities. Other than that no real evidence though.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:30
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Hamas is a rational actor. (!)
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Mar 28, 2015 18:32
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hakimashou posted:I know something they can count on for sure though. 100% guaranteed. They can count on Israel to shoot regardless of what they do. The only thing they can affect is the price Israel pays for each bullet. Many nationalist groups have obtained independence despite inferior power by simply making the occupation, colonization, and/or oppression simply too costly (in terms of both money and lives) to continue.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:The sole reason? No others? Does this explain why Hamas launched their campaign of suicide bombings in 1996? Why did they escalate violence after the Israeli withdrawal in 2005? I was talking about the rocket attacks in the latest heat-up, obviously.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:35
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Miltank posted:Hamas is a rational actor. (!) way more so than bibi, that's for sure
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Mar 28, 2015 18:36
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PhilippAchtel posted:Responding to the idea of discrediting Islamism to "the entire world", by claiming that "the west" already dislikes Islamism betrays a belief that "the west" is the only audience in the entire world worth appealing to. Discrediting, or at least not reinforcing, Islamist arguments about Israel is about appealing to moderates in the Muslim world. If Likud would laugh in my face at the idea of undermining Islamists who use Israeli oppression as a rallying cry by simply not acting like such an unapologetic oppressive force, I would take that as the highest of compliments. Believing even for an instant that Obama is against Israel is either wishful thinking or buying Likud propaganda, he's merely pro-Labor and anti-Likud policies, well within the zionist spectrum. Once again conflating "pro two-states" as "against Israel" is more telling about your perceptions than anything else, there are many Israelis who believe that the two state solution is the best thing for Israel as well, according to the recent elections it's over 25% of the jewish population. Convincing the moderate muslim world that Israel isn't the little satan is clearly not something Israel is particularly concerned about at the moment, if you think any Likudnik is going to sacrifice what they consider to be "national security" goals in favor of "maybe Iran will deny the holocaust less often" you clearly don't understand what these people are actually striving for, they would laugh at your face not because of your valiant notions of equality and how bad israel is but because you do not even seem to understand their most basic of motivations, here's a clue, that many people in this thread need: perhaps not every single Israeli right winger is a liar who's solely motivated by his innate hatred of arabs, perhaps there are some rational motives for their actions and policies. The US is also not beholden to the will of any foreign government, if anything Obama's actions demonstrate this very well, if you think that this notion will find traction among the american public (as is implied by the 'dam' metaphor) than you either believe the ZOG propaganda yourself or you believe that the american public believes it.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:38
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CSM posted:Except they stopped suicide bombings, have adhered much better to ceasefires than Israel has, and have publicly declared their support for a two state solution. How is that evidence of intent whatsoever? Hamas also has explicitly not endorsed a two state solution. They have offered a hudna IF Israel allows every 1948 refugee to return. That's pretty explicitly support for an Ali Abunimah-one state solution in the most generous possible reading. Point me towards one quote saying that they would agree to permanent borders using the quartet framework of 1967 borders with tweaks, splitting Jerusalem, and only a small symbolic number of refugees return.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:43
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hakimashou posted:Here is an honest question: What is the point of this question? They don't have such a magic weapon, and they aren't going to get one. You could ask the same question the other way around: if the Israeli had a weapon that could kill all the Palestinians, would they use it? Yes. If MIGF had a weapon that would kill all the Palestinians and all the Iranians, would he use it? He'd be pushing the button furiously and repeatedly while masturbating. What about you? Same thing I guess.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:48
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Miltank posted:Hamas is a rational actor. (!) So is ISIL. Problem is, the logic to which they are rational is more 7th century and less 21st. Cat Mattress posted:What is the point of this question? They don't have such a magic weapon, and they aren't going to get one. You could ask the same question the other way around: if the Israeli had a weapon that could kill all the Palestinians, would they use it? Yes. If MIGF had a weapon that would kill all the Palestinians and all the Iranians, would he use it? He'd be pushing the button furiously and repeatedly while masturbating. What about you? Same thing I guess. gently caress you, we both know I wouldn't. No such button exists. My issue with Iran is their attempts to acquire nuclear weapons, not their people. Further, Israel does have weapons that could kill all Palestinians. They have yet to use them, ergo their interest is in regional peace. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 18:51
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Cat Mattress posted:What is the point of this question? They don't have such a magic weapon, and they aren't going to get one. You could ask the same question the other way around: if the Israeli had a weapon that could kill all the Palestinians, would they use it? Yes. If MIGF had a weapon that would kill all the Palestinians and all the Iranians, would he use it? He'd be pushing the button furiously and repeatedly while masturbating. What about you? Same thing I guess. Israel could kill way more Palestinians right now. The Palestinians could also be killing way more Israelis than they are now, although it would be much less than the Israeli capacity. Israel's power is much greater, which is what gives them tons of leverage. If Hamas had this power they would have more leverage. What they would do with it depends on how the balance would have been and their internal pressure, but it's doubtful they would just maximize their Israeli-killing capacity when they could do it to gain power and autonomy, which is what they've been doing with the tools they have so far. Maybe 1990's Hamas would have acted differently, but the organization doesn't seem to be going in the same direction these days.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:So is ISIL. MIGF, circa 2007: "Iran is going to get nukes! Any day now!" MIGF, circa 2010: "Iran is going to get nukes! Any day now!" MIGF, circa 2012: "Iran is going to get nukes! Any day now! This diagram by Netanyahu is all the evidence!" This is getting boring.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:55
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Main Paineframe posted:They can count on Israel to shoot regardless of what they do. The only thing they can affect is the price Israel pays for each bullet. Many nationalist groups have obtained independence despite inferior power by simply making the occupation, colonization, and/or oppression simply too costly (in terms of both money and lives) to continue. How costly have the Palestinians made it, and have they offered a less costly alternative? If Israel allows more materiel into Gaza, what reasons do they have to believe it won't be used to construct weapons again and tunnels again. If giving the Gazans materiel leads to them making weapons and tunnels, isn't it less costly to withhold the materiel, since that means less weapons and fewer tunnels? If the cost for israel is expressed in rockets, then isn't bombing until the rockets are suppressed an effective way of reducing the costs? Violence begets violence and israel is a thousand times more effective at it. Don't fight battles you know for sure you'll lose.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:10
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hakimashou posted:How costly have the Palestinians made it, and have they offered a less costly alternative? Yes. Netanyahu could have welcomed the Fatah-Hamas unity government with open arms and worked with them to set up elections six months from then. Hell, it would have already happened by now, the Palestinians would have had a legitimate, democratically-elected government right now, and negotiations could have proceeded to resolve the issues with both the West Bank and Gaza. But that would have required removing settlements and granting Palestinians control over their lives, which Israeli governments, particularly ones lead by Likud, have always been very reluctant to do. So instead we got this bullshit.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:13
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Cat Mattress posted:What is the point of this question? They don't have such a magic weapon, and they aren't going to get one. You could ask the same question the other way around: if the Israeli had a weapon that could kill all the Palestinians, would they use it? Yes. If MIGF had a weapon that would kill all the Palestinians and all the Iranians, would he use it? He'd be pushing the button furiously and repeatedly while masturbating. What about you? Same thing I guess. Israel has such weapons and could make the Gaza strip a graveyard any time they liked. It's unlikely anyone would do anything to stop them either. And yet, being able to, they choose not to. I've got nothing against Iran except they are oppressive Islamist bastards to their own people. I've got nothing against the Palestinians except that they are suicidal self destructive troublemakers. I don't wish any real harm to either of them, I wish they'd get their act together.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:14
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hakimashou posted:How costly have the Palestinians made it, and have they offered a less costly alternative? No they aren't. The IDF isn't willing to commit because their soldiers would get boo boo's if they invade Gaza again. If Hamas and the Gaza citizenry weren't willing to violently resist the IDF would have just driven them all into the sea 10 years ago.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:15
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Venom Snake posted:No they aren't. The IDF isn't willing to commit because their soldiers would get boo boo's if they invade Gaza again. If Hamas and the Gaza citizenry weren't willing to violently resist the IDF would have just driven them all into the sea 10 years ago. Israel could kill everyone in the gaza strip using airplanes, missiles, and artillery.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:16
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hakimashou posted:Israel has such weapons and could make the Gaza strip a graveyard any time they liked. It's unlikely anyone would do anything to stop them either. And yet, being able to, they choose not to. The Israeli weapons that could sterilize the Gaza Strip would also inevitably hurt Israel itself though. It isn't kindness that stops them from pressing the button.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:17
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hakimashou posted:Israel could kill everyone in the gaza strip using airplanes, missiles, and artillery. No, they couldn't. Israel doesn't have the weapon stock piles nor do they have the will.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:18
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