|
President Kucinich posted:The temerity of the Palestinian mother to allow her kids to live above ground in a building is all the proof I need to know Palestinians will not rest until every Israeli is below ground. Why do they insist on not gently going into that good night? 
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
Venom Snake posted:Except people have been saying this all along down the line and France just put in a resolution on Palestine and the word on the street is the U.S. isn't going to veto.  Link? Because "US abstains on a resolution rather than vetos" is like my loving dream of what the US could do to thumb our nose at Netanyahu/Israel.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 21:14
|
|
|
fade5 posted:
I found this. http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/France-to-begin-push-for-UN-resolution-on-Israel-Palestine-in-coming-weeks-395343 Nothing solid yet, on both counts of the resolution actually happening, and the US actually letting it go.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:I found this. They're giving Netanyahu the chance to form a unity government with labor to put some money where his mouth is as far as backpedaling goes. I guess we'll see what happens. Lots of melodrama at the coalition talks, there's trouble in right-wing paradise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 21:33
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:Except people have been saying this all along down the line and France just put in a resolution on Palestine and the word on the street is the U.S. isn't going to veto. Word on the street? The AP had a story last week that the US was considering it, but would only not veto if the resolution continued language supporting Israel as a Jewish state, which France and others weren't willing to go along with. Because I say? You are literally the definition of wishful thinking here. I'm going by what's actually been reported.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:19
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Word on the street? The AP had a story last week that the US was considering it, but would only not veto if the resolution continued language supporting Israel as a Jewish state, which France and others weren't willing to go along with. Except what's being reported is that the U.S. government is tired of Lukid making GBS threads all over 60 years of foreign policy. Or do you think the Pentagon quietly released those document about Israel's nuclear weapons for no reason?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:22
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:Except what's being reported is that the U.S. government is tired of Lukid making GBS threads all over 60 years of foreign policy. Or do you think the Pentagon quietly released those document about Israel's nuclear weapons for no reason? It's hard for me to believe that the US has finally decided, after nearly 50 years, to give a poo poo about the rights of Palestinians. The administration knows exactly what's happening on the ground in Palestine, and the idea that anyone at the State Department believed that the Israeli government had any plans to give the land they stole back until they were shocked and blindsided by Netanyahu's election comments is just fantasy. Maybe I'm just cynical, but my speculation is that the current rhetoric from the Obama administration is meant to sap the heat out of a potential international reaction to Netanyahu's election comments, which is much more serious. The criminal wants to stay in charge of the investigation into his own activity, and when the heat comes around he simply pretends to be trying harder.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:40
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:What is the point of this question? They don't have such a magic weapon, and they aren't going to get one. You could ask the same question the other way around: if the Israeli had a weapon that could kill all the Palestinians, would they use it? Yes. If MIGF had a weapon that would kill all the Palestinians and all the Iranians, would he use it? He'd be pushing the button furiously and repeatedly while masturbating. What about you? Same thing I guess. Nah. Israel's government has little real interest in whether the Palestinians live or die, as long as they passively allow Israel to steal all that they please. Israel isn't interested in exterminating the Palestinians, just taking anything of value that they might have and kicking them off any land that anyone might reasonably want to live on. hakimashou posted:How costly have the Palestinians made it, and have they offered a less costly alternative? Actually, since materiel stopped at the border is kept by Israel, maintaining the blockade is actually profitable to Israel. If they don't care about the well-being of Palestinians, then there's no reason not to maintain the blockade forever. Suppressing the rockets by bombing has repeatedly proven to be ineffective over the last, what, twenty years? Three wars in six years have, so far, failed to meaningfully and permanently put a halt to Hamas rocket capabilities. There's no reason to think it'll work the next time. Besides, every bomb Israel fires is expensive - far more expensive than the rockets Hamas can easily cobble together out of the scrap metal provided in large amounts by the results of Israeli strikes, though probably not as expensive as the billion-plus dollars Israel has sunk into rocket interception systems. Venom Snake posted:Hillary stands with the Democratic party, and the Democratic party loving hates Nutty Yahoo and the Republicans who support him. No way, Hilary stands with the donors. So did Obama, until 2014. Now he just does whatever the hell he wants, but Hilary and the rest are still beholden to the party, to the political machine, and to the big donors. And I can't think of a single US millionaire who makes it openly known that they are a one-issue voter who will only support politicians who are pro-Palestine. And it's unlikely that dealing with Netanyahu's poo poo will change her opinion, given that she has dealt with Netanyahu for quite a few years in various political positions, while her husband has done the same. Although Bill has publicly blamed Netanyahu for years for the constant failure to get any peace deal, Hillary has openly supported and defended Israel's conduct even during Protective Edge, when she was responsible for gems like "It’s impossible to know what happens in the fog of war. Some reports say, maybe it wasn’t the exact UN school that was bombed, but it was the annex to the school next door where they were firing the rockets. And I do think oftentimes that the anguish you are privy to because of the coverage, and the women and the children and all the rest of that, makes it very difficult to sort through to get to the truth". Yeah, all those sobbing women and dead children really get in the way of pushing an agenda, don't they?  Her position on Iran, too, has more in common with Boehner than with Obama.Venom Snake posted:Except what's being reported is that the U.S. government is tired of Lukid making GBS threads all over 60 years of foreign policy. Or do you think the Pentagon quietly released those document about Israel's nuclear weapons for no reason? They almost certainly released that document as a warning to Netanyahu to fall back in line, as well to neutralize Israeli interference with Obama's Iran negotiations. What happens will largely depend on what exactly the resolution says, but I doubt that the US will sign on to anything that really inconveniences Israel at this point. At this point, it's about time for Obama to back down and give Netanyahu some space to see if he's willing to respond to our threats and change his tune.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:42
|
|
|
CSM posted:have publicly declared their support for a two state solution. The thread has reached the point where the "facts" introduced by the usual suspects spiral downwards until they're just linking to sites full of theories about the USS Liberty and the Zionist's secret 'Samson Option' plan to annihilate the world. But I feel compelled, for anyone for whom the mere mention of the existence of Israel does not cause a jaw-clenching keyboard-pounding rage against the colonial apartheid Nazi South African genocidal settler entity, that you are completely and totally false. Hamas has decidedly not endorsed a two-state solution, although I will note that the occasional I/P poster occasionally pops up to try to reinforce that particular delusion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:The thread has reached the point where the "facts" introduced by the usual suspects spiral downwards until they're just linking to sites full of theories about the USS Liberty and the Zionist's secret 'Samson Option' plan to annihilate the world. Was Arutz Sheva deluded, too?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 22:55
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:The thread has reached the point where the "facts" introduced by the usual suspects spiral downwards until they're just linking to sites full of theories about the USS Liberty and the Zionist's secret 'Samson Option' plan to annihilate the world. Back in 2008: quote:Carter was back in Jerusalem this week to brief Israeli leaders on his talks with [Hamas political leader Khaled] Meshal regarding a proposed truce between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip as well as an exchange of prisoners between them. Again in 2013: quote:Hamas’s political chief Khaled Mashaal has apparently expressed his support for a two-state solution to end the Israeli-Arab conflict, the Saudi Al-Sharq newspaper reported on Wednesday. You can argue that there have been contradictory statements, that they changed their position (although they offered a 10-year truce again in 2014) or that Jimmy Carter was lying (lol), but "completely and totally false" is a load of poo poo, and so are you. Seriously though, why do you still post here? You have never ever contributed anything of worth. Your post can be directly contradicted by five minutes of googling for English-language Israeli sources, and when you're not demonstrating your belief in a reality that is the opposite of this one, you're smearing posters with innuendo about anti-semitism. Can you just gently caress off?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2015 23:09
|
|
|
A little late to the party on this one, but in reference to the Israeli nuke documents: some funny stuff: A. It was declassified because of a FOIA lawsuit- crap and double crap. If the Administration had not wanted its release, it would have never seen the light of day. B. everything was redacted except the dope on the Israelis. C. Nobody said anything about it- they just figuratively left it on the hall table for someone to find. Even then, somebody finally had to "tip" media after the appropriate cool-off time to go look at it. A- gives the excuse of we just had to release it, had to,we had absolutely no loving choice cuz "openness" and "freedom" an' poo poo. B- is the equivalent of stamping "gently caress You, Bibi" on the front in red ink. C- firewalls President Beavis so he can say "I didn't know, I just now heard about it on the news huh hunh huh." Some very careful political tuning was done here. Now tell me if I'm wrong on this but we are trying to get the clabberheads in Iran to like not go nuclear, right? Right? Are we? Or do we want a war somehow? Some people think it doesn't matter because "everyone knew" Israel was packing the Big Heat- but that ain't the way it works in the art of bullshit some call diplomacy. Just like "everybody knew" OJ stabbed his wife- but he didn't go to jail(until he hosed with one of the big hotels in Vegas). Is there any other single conceivable act that would screw up the Iran talks worse than this? This is a Bad Thing.This cannot help but increase the odds of a nuclear exchange. Maybe only slightly, but still, maybe not. I'm surprised that the local Jews aren't heaving brickbats through the White House windows over this. They should be. ... Ten or twenty years down the line, a million charred skeletons may rise up out of a plain of crazed and fractured glass and shout as one : "Thanks, Obama!" e: Now the Saudis want in on the game. They don't gotta centrifuge poo poo- they got a standing deal with Pakistan to buy warheads iffen they wants to. zimboe fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:33
|
|
|
zimboe posted:A little late to the party on this one, but in reference to the Israeli nuke documents: It's much more likely to stave off Israel derailing the Iran talks, since it makes their position look weaker and self-serving. And the US wants an Iran deal very bad because I think ultimately there is a long-term attempt at detente at worst and reconciliation at best with Iran because it's a regional power that is useful for US interest at least on some level, and is downright necessary for stability in places like Iraq and Syria. How this will now play out with the war in Yemen I don't know, but as with the reconsideration of relations with Cuba, I think Obama is trying to reduce the amount of unnecessary enemies the US has in the world before he finishes his tenure. If Israel gets in the way of that, it will be trampled, is the point of this particular maneuver.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:38
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:It's much more likely to stave off Israel derailing the Iran talks, since it makes their position look weaker and self-serving. And the US wants an Iran deal very bad because I think ultimately there is a long-term attempt at detente at worst and reconciliation at best with Iran because it's a regional power that is useful for US interest at least on some level, and is downright necessary for stability in places like Iraq and Syria. How this will now play out with the war in Yemen I don't know, but as with the reconsideration of relations with Cuba, I think Obama is trying to reduce the amount of unnecessary enemies the US has in the world before he finishes his tenure. If Israel gets in the way of that, it will be trampled, is the point of this particular maneuver. I haven't followed this much because I can scarcely stand to look- but wouldn't Israel want these talks to work out? How is that not a Good Thing? I don't understand at all. Do they want to go to war with Iran? Or is this some brilliant political strategy an honest man like me just can't parse? ... All I know is-Weapons get used. Always. Sooner or later. zimboe fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:43
|
|
|
zimboe posted:I haven't followed this much because I can scarcely stand to look- but wouldn't Israel want these talks to work out? How is that not a Good Thing? Boy, you really haven't been paying attention: Netanyahu wants Iran to remain an ever-present threat so he can rile up fears in the Israeli populace and get reelected. It worked marvelously for him in the elections we just had last week. He'd been making threats and even plans to strike at Iran, to the point where Israeli defense officials have repeatedly leaked and then openly said after retirement that they think it's crazy and that they have actually blocked these plans from happening. The US has had in the past to express openly how bad of an idea they think it is, including Panetta saying that Israel is incapable of doing this when he was still SoD. Netanyahu has been warning about the Iranian bomb since the early 1990's. This is his hobby-horse. His
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:47
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Boy, you really haven't been paying attention: Netanyahu wants Iran to remain an ever-present threat so he can rile up fears in the Israeli populace and get reelected. It worked marvelously for him in the elections we just had last week. He'd been making threats and even plans to strike at Iran, to the point where Israeli defense officials have repeatedly leaked and then openly said after retirement that they think it's crazy and that they have actually blocked these plans from happening. The US has had in the past to express openly how bad of an idea they think it is, including Panetta saying that Israel is incapable of doing this when he was still SoD. Yah, I'm basically a virgin to this particular series of events. Maybe this is why it seems so absurd and incomprehensible to me. In the long run, this could be a very expensive strategy indeed to retain power. How very selfish. If what you say is true, Bibi is a fool for the ages. Is this guy a total nut, or just a typical politician? zimboe fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:50
|
|
|
zimboe posted:In the long run, that could be a very expensive strategy indeed to retain power. His issue with Iran borders on obsession, but he is a consummate politician and eager to use whatever means necessary to stay in power, including selling out long-term Israeli strategic interests. He is also notoriously corrupt and would have a hard time living anyway other than off the public dime.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:52
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:His issue with Iran borders on obsession, but he is a consummate politician and eager to use whatever means necessary to stay in power, including selling out long-term Israeli strategic interests. He is also notoriously corrupt and would have a hard time living anyway other than off the public dime. I find that frightening, and tragic. Perhaps he will catch a cold or something. ... Mark Twain said:"People get the government they deserve." The Israelis must therefore be some kinda serious assholes to deserve Bibi. zimboe fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
zimboe posted:In the long run, that could be a very expensive strategy indeed to retain power. It's a very common strategy among militaristic, right-wing politicians. They want to be seen as strong figures protecting their country and their people from the big bad external threats that want to destroy their country, but to do that, they need those big bad external threats to exist. It's an especially effective strategy since, by making an election about foreign policy, they're often able to steer the discourse away from domestic issues that are typically much more difficult to solve in a politically popular way. Times of peace and low tensions are the greatest enemy of right-wing foreign-policy hawks. That said, it's unlikely to be particularly destructive to Israel even if Iran gets nukes, unless Israel decides to provoke trouble themselves. After all, Israel has been able to refrain from nuking Iran, despite their rhetoric; there's no reason to assume that Iran won't be able to do the same, despite their rhetoric. Tons of countries who portrayed their rivals as the big bad ultimate enemies have managed to refrain from nuking those rivals.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
zimboe posted:I find that frightening, and tragic. What country are you from? I could probably say the same about your people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 00:59
|
|
|
So Paineframe, you are putting your faith in the effectiveness of MAD? But- these Political Islamists seem death obsessed, more interested in Paradise than Earth. Who says MAD will be effective on the mad?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:01
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:What country are you from? I could probably say the same about your people. USA aaand, yep.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:01
|
|
|
zimboe posted:So Paineframe, you are putting your faith in the effectiveness of MAD? Pakistan and India are not yet desolate radiated hellscapes. Also, Iran's Islamic politicians seem to be more interested in diversifying their economy and energy production (as well as projecting power and creating leverage and deterrence) than they do in Paradise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:04
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:It's a very common strategy among militaristic, right-wing politicians. They want to be seen as strong figures protecting their country and their people from the big bad external threats that want to destroy their country, but to do that, they need those big bad external threats to exist. It's an especially effective strategy since, by making an election about foreign policy, they're often able to steer the discourse away from domestic issues that are typically much more difficult to solve in a politically popular way. Times of peace and low tensions are the greatest enemy of right-wing foreign-policy hawks. Something that may have escaped much notice: if Iran gets warheads, they don't necessarily need to be the ones to use them. They can quietly sell them to third parties who then will do as they like with them, and also PROFIT! How would we prevent them? This is already a concern with the Nork. This is the debagged cat scenario. ref my post above about the Kingdom buying warheads from Pakistan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:19
|
|
|
Israel has a worse track record of offering to sell nukes to rogue states and actors than Iran does, BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Alleged_collaboration_with_Israel
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:20
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Pakistan and India are not yet desolate radiated hellscapes. Also, Iran's Islamic politicians seem to be more interested in diversifying their economy and energy production (as well as projecting power and creating leverage and deterrence) than they do in Paradise. Operative word Yet.. I say again, weapons get used sooner or later. And who says Iran's or Pakistan's government won't go bitchcakes radical at some point in the future? I mean, nobody saw these ISIS supercrazies coming. zimboe fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Israel has a worse track record of offering to sell nukes to rogue states and actors than Iran does, BTW My point exactly. The weapons are eventually likely to be sold, whoever the parties involved are.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:23
|
|
|
zimboe posted:Something that may have escaped much notice: Good point! The solutions should be to disarm everyone of nukes. How about Israel starts by admitting it has nukes, signing up to the NPT, and moving on from there?  zimboe posted:Operative word Yet.. The only country to ever use nuclear weapons other than in testing was the US in WWII.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:24
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki may actually have vaccinated the world against nuclear war in a sense- because before their first use, no one comprehended that nuclear bombs are as hellish as they are. I.E., an airburst is an efficient way to skin people alive by the tens of thousands. First the thermal pulse separates the skin in one huge blister, then the blast wave degloves the whole body, with the skin hanging like rags. Hell couldn't be that bad. I sadly suspect the human race may be in need of a booster shot by now. The bombs were really meant for those Nasty Nazzies- but they had the poor grace to lose too soon. Sooo- Well, we'll just have to make do with Japan then. Weapons get used. zimboe fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:32
|
|
|
zimboe posted:sure- because weapons get used. That's a great ramble. But back to reality, the best way to reduce the possibility of nuclear weapons being proliferated to non-state actors is through reduction in supply. Since (according to non-Israeli sources) Israel is the only Middle Eastern country currently with nukes, non-proliferation starts with it declaring its stocks and accepting international oversight and elimination. Surely that is a much more credible position from which to press Iran to avoid pursuing its own nuclear arms, with the proliferation risk that entails!
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:35
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:That's a great ramble. But back to reality, the best way to reduce the possibility of nuclear weapons being proliferated to non-state actors is through reduction in supply. Since (according to non-Israeli sources) Israel is the only Middle Eastern country currently with nukes, non-proliferation starts with it declaring its stocks and accepting international oversight and elimination. Surely that is a much more credible position from which to press Iran to avoid pursuing its own nuclear arms, with the proliferation risk that entails! Sure, no one can argue with that- but weapons are Power, and nations rarely, if ever, willingly give up Power. It is their very lifeblood. To eliminate these weapons, it may ultimately be necessary to eliminate the concept of Nations. Good luck with that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
New ads on the sides of Philadelphia busses: Seems a direct reaction to Obama's anti-Israel stance.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:47
|
|
|
I really think it will take a couple dozen smoking nuke craters in the Middle East to really drive home the point to these actors that nuclear weapons are the original Bad Idea. Maybe we should propagandize them with old films of Hiroshima as a reminder-Nah, Murka wouldn't like it 'cuz you know- we did it. Harry Truman was a mass murderer by any honest standard. ... What nukes mainly do is get other nukes aimed at you.They are strategically worthless. zimboe fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:48
|
|
|
Some coalition building news:quote:Yesh Atid chief Yair Lapid has called on Kulanu leader Moshe Kahlon to prevent the expansion of the cabinet beyond the 18 ministers now permitted by law.[...] Sources in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud say there may be no choice but to have 22 or 24 ministers. Decriminalizing draft-dodging sounds like a pretty cool and progressive idea, no?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:56
|
|
|
SNAKES N CAKES posted:Some coalition building news: It's not what you think it is. It's explicitly targeted at people getting a pass due to religious reasons (it's okay for Israel to oppress Palestinians so that I can have a cheap home in the West Bank, but perish the thought I take part in the IDF where I might be forced to see an uncovered woman or eat food that is not kosher to my standards!), it won't help conscientious objectors.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:59
|
|
|
I hereby formally abandon all hope of understanding or putting any sense to the Middle East. Politics, religion, and powerlust has trumped simple human reason. poo poo. Lettem bomb each other to dust. They're too stupid to live. I'm sick of hearing it. I am going to have to burn my television. Again. You should do the same, you'll be happier. ... After these psycho idiots are all dead or sterile, we can start over with rational people in the region. like Canadians. Or Chinese. Or Chinese-Canadians. The oil will be fine, it's miles underground. Signing off. Time to feed parakeet. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
zimboe posted:But- these Political Islamists seem death obsessed, more interested in Paradise than Earth. as a Jew, I'd say the same thing about any Christian, but we've managed to only nuke another country in anger twice, and not once in the past 70 years.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
zimboe posted:I hereby formally abandon all hope of understanding or putting any sense to the Middle East. Politics, religion, and powerlust has trumped simple human reason. Settle down, Beavis.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 03:35
|
|
|
It's terrible how people kill and oppress each other - terrible how it makes me think, and require difficult, nuanced solutions with many begrudging compromises! All this death is so terrible. If only we could just kill everyone, in one go, then I wouldn't have to hear about people dying anymore!
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 06:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:I found this. quote:What about the release of Alsace-Lorraine? Haha, this idiot doesn't realize that the French already liberated glorious Alsace-Lorraine from the Nazis. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 06:43
|
|
