Effectronica posted:

He said that what you call food doesn't matter. I decided to illustrate this, with exactly as much intellectualism as his original statement had.

Let us English posted:

Had work to do, didn't have time for a full reply.

Kanji tattoos are dumb because they're tacky and look like poo poo. Most people who get them simply pull out a dictionary and find the first entry for "strength" or whatever, but it never translates right. I used to work at a summer camp where we'd go to the local pool. An ex-marine counselor from another camp would always bet there and you could see he had 兄弟 on his back. I assume he wanted it to say "brotherhood" but he just got the word "siblings" instead.

Squalid posted:

So has anyone proposed a solution to cultural appropriation yet?

quote:

Assuming it exists how can we use the law to protect bindis, lebkuchen, ska, etc from appropriation?

OwlFancier posted:

I think you are being deliberately disingenuous, there is a difference between inaccurate but commincative labeling and gibberish.

You are also not attacking the argument, but rather the way it is phrased, if you would like to attempt to attack the argument, please feel free.

OwlFancier posted:

It's pretty silly to be upset because you think someone doesn't have sufficiently refined taste in food. People can eat what they like and call it what they like, and so can you.

Effectronica posted:

No, I'm attacking the argument you actually made:


Maybe you wanted to make a different one, but unfortunately, you're stuck with a world in which watermelons are strawberries and strawberries are Gruyere cheese and Gruyere cheese is duck confit. Even limiting it to "inaccurate but commincative labeling" still leads us to the conclusion that a grilled cheese and tomato sandwich is a pizza, or at the very least a calzone.

Obdicut posted:

Congrats, you're upset about cultural appropriation. And yes, Kanji isn't a really big deal, just kind of dumb.

Also, cultural appropriation isn't something only done in the US, so saying poo poo is done in other countries isn't really significant or worth arguing about.

Let us English posted:

I'm not upset, nor do I think this situation bears any resemblance to earlier examples of black musicians or native-themed sports teams. Trying to put all three situations under the same label seems ridiculous.

OwlFancier posted:

You know the difference, you're still being deliberately obtuse.

Calling a grilled cheese sandwich pizza isn't communicative, because nobody else in the world does that. Calling milk with flavored powder in it "milkshake" is communicative because people actually do that even if it isn't strictly accurate.

Barlow posted:

Some of the more extreme criticisms of cultural appropriation are really strange when applied to religion. Christianity is designed to be culturally appreciative of Jewish culture, communion is overtly a kind subversion of Passover. I've seen Catholics argue that Satanists shouldn't be allowed to publicly worship because they have a "mass" which appropriates the Catholic kind. Syncretism is pretty dominate in most religious traditions, Haitian Vodou for instance is a mix of Catholicism, African religions and indigenous American religions.

Not sure there is any religion which isn't culturally appropriative.

Obdicut posted:

Yeah I made a post that literally had a couple of problems and solutions in it.

Don't use a law for that, that's dumb.

Edit: We did make a law that you can't trademark something that's denigrating, so that's one example of an actually efficacious law.

Squalid posted:

Okay I looked through your post history and we're supposed to wag our fingers and shake our heads disapprovingly at those drat teens and their saris. Sounds like an effective strategy.

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

Why does this make you an insufferable rear end? I simply don't understand: if someone gets upset (like Obdicut's grandfather at Swedish Christmas cookies sold at stores), what is illegitimate about their being upset? Why are they wrong to be upset? Commodified food examples strike me as really clear-cut cases of appropriation, actually.

Obdicut posted:

What would you suggest instead?

Effectronica posted:

You know, this whole thing comes down to "you shouldn't care!" and I'm giving your idea far more respect than it deserves by pretending you've put any actual thought in it. But in any case, people don't generally control their involuntary responses, such as to bastardizations of particular foods, and I have no inclination to try to suppress something so minor and inconsequential.

OwlFancier posted:

If you aren't capable of voluntarily controlling your response to something as inoffensive as someone else's taste in food, that says more about you than it does the person doing the eating.

This extends across the vast majority of this subject. What meaning or lack thereof somebody assigns to your actions and beliefs, does not in any way affect your ability to assign meaning to them. Expecting everybody else to respect and share your idea of what is important just because you think it's important, is extremely juvenile. You can believe whatever you like by yourself, but when you expect other people to respect ideas that don't make any sense to them, that's frankly silly.

Unless you want to argue that cultural beliefs have inherent value simply because people believe them, there is no reason why anyone else should treat them as sacrosanct. You may elect to be respectful to a person, and very reasonably so, but that does not extend to their ideas, not simply because they have them. And if the person requires you to respect their ideas as well as them, that is a failing of the person.

We expect people to separate themselves from their ideas sufficiently that they do not perceive an attack on their ideas, as a personal attack. That is the basis of all debate. If someone can't do that, it is not generally considered necessary to pander to their inability to do so.

Obdicut posted:

What would you suggest instead?

Effectronica posted:

You know, this whole thing comes down to "you shouldn't care!" and I'm giving your idea far more respect than it deserves by pretending you've put any actual thought in it. But in any case, people don't generally control their involuntary responses, such as to bastardizations of particular foods, and I have no inclination to try to suppress something so minor and inconsequential.


Calling syncretism appropriation? What the gently caress.

Squalid posted:

Nothing. Cultural transmission is inevitable, out-of-control, and irreversible.

quote:

Although we may be able to positively effect the incidence of "appropriation" vs "exchange," however one likes to define these terms, by dismantling race/culture based power structures. I have no interest in meaningless hand-wringing.

quote:

Oh well, I guess I can sympathize. For example I recently saw this French Vanilla Nescafe instant coffee bullshit. As an American of French heritage, it really pissed me off Nestle was exploiting my culture with this garbage. How do they get away with this poo poo!

Obdicut posted:

Like I said before, it's a tiny, trivial bit of cultural appropriation. You can also have tiny bits of racism, that aren't nearly as bad as serious racism. "Cultural appropriation" doesn't imply anything about scale, just as racism doesn't. Just like someone putting on a bit of a black accent and saying "Man" a lot nervously while talking to a black guy is racism, but is not as significant racism as was that black musicians weren't allowed to play for white audiences at major venues.

Jarmak posted:

Yes, people who are purists for the sake of being purists are insufferable asses. If you make your BBQ on a gas grill I'm going to think you don't make very good BBQ, but if I got actually upset with you for tarnishing the name of good BBQ with your inferior creation then I'd be a grade A rear end in a top hat.

There is some exception to this for certain things of religious or sacrosanct nature, cinnamon rolls do not fall under this.

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

I'm going to bold this and hope people see it, because it's both right and nobody sane is acting like appropriation (especially the examples being given) is the end of the world. It's just one of the many ways minority groups get shat on. Sometimes you just get a tiny bit of poo poo on you, and maybe there's more poo poo coming from a different direction, but it's still poo poo. The examples can be of differing degrees of severity, but come on, all people are asking is that you see the phenomenon being identified.
Nobody's talking about food purists, who are stupid. People are talking about taking parts of a culture (of which food is a significant part, no matter how much people might want to denigrate the minor umbrage/offense/upset that's caused by cases of appropriation! just because it's minor doesn't mean it should be dismissed...it's still a thing that happens, and rather than going "lol who gets upset about that other than assholes?" maybe we should think why it might bother people?) and turning it from something special to a commodity, or doing something to eliminate what it means to the culture. My making barbeque on the gas grill isn't appropriation because it's not taking some part of a culture and depriving it of its cultural cachet, or ignoring the context within which it exists and making it a commodity, or anything that involves taking the cultural product in question and repackaging it to ignore the fact that it is this culture's product.

Don't imagine yourself being put into these situations, imagine your grandparents being put into these situations. I find it baffling that even if you disagree that these are cases anyone should get upset about you can't find empathy with someone who might feel a little bothered by some of these things. These aren't caricatures; real people are bothered by these things, so why not at least try and understand why they might be bothered? People can and are bothered by these things, and maybe wondering why they'd be bothered, other than their being insufferable asses, is at least worth thinking about?

Let us English posted:

I live in a place where my culture is commodified and sold to people while the ignore the context and country from where it came. Have you seen what passes for Camembert or Olive Oil in Asian grocery stores? I was literally spit on the other day by a guy with American shoes on his feet and an American cigarette in his hand. I understand why people might be bothered by it, but I still think they're insufferable asses. There are actual problems with racism in this world and people who try to turn bland hummus made by white people into even a tiny racial issue need to rethink their priorities.

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

I'm going to bold this and hope people see it, because it's both right and nobody sane is acting like appropriation (especially the examples being given) is the end of the world. It's just one of the many ways minority groups get shat on. Sometimes you just get a tiny bit of poo poo on you, and maybe there's more poo poo coming from a different direction, but it's still poo poo. The examples can be of differing degrees of severity, but come on, all people are asking is that you see the phenomenon being identified.
Nobody's talking about food purists, who are stupid. People are talking about taking parts of a culture (of which food is a significant part, no matter how much people might want to denigrate the minor umbrage/offense/upset that's caused by cases of appropriation! just because it's minor doesn't mean it should be dismissed...it's still a thing that happens, and rather than going "lol who gets upset about that other than assholes?" maybe we should think why it might bother people?) and turning it from something special to a commodity, or doing something to eliminate what it means to the culture. My making barbeque on the gas grill isn't appropriation because it's not taking some part of a culture and depriving it of its cultural cachet, or ignoring the context within which it exists and making it a commodity, or anything that involves taking the cultural product in question and repackaging it to ignore the fact that it is this culture's product.

Don't imagine yourself being put into these situations, imagine your grandparents being put into these situations. I find it baffling that even if you disagree that these are cases anyone should get upset about you can't find empathy with someone who might feel a little bothered by some of these things. These aren't caricatures; real people are bothered by these things, so why not at least try and understand why they might be bothered? People can and are bothered by these things, and maybe wondering why they'd be bothered, other than their being insufferable asses, is at least worth thinking about?

wateroverfire posted:

The other day I saw american-style ketchup in the grocery store and, on behalf of my gringo SJW bretheren, I was offended.

SedanChair posted:

Talking about supposed "appropriation" of European cultures is irrelevant because they are the ones doing the appropriating, ravenously, for all of history, unless we are talking about the Basques or something.

hakimashou posted:

Is that really a bad thing though? Would the world be better off if the west hadn't appropriated tea and chocolate and tobacco and all the rest?

Borrowing and imitating and sharing enriches human culture.

Let us English posted:

I'm pretty sure he was trolling and or joking. If not he's woefully ignorant of history. Though I'm sure someone in this thread will be along to tell us why Chinese and Korean appropriation chili pepper is a great insult to somebody.

RonJeremysBalzac posted:

Next time i'm at a Mexican restaurant, i'm going to insist they put coriander on my taco instead of cilantro

TheImmigrant posted:

You handle is deeply offensive to French people. Unless, of course, you are French. In that case, it demonstrates your racism against New York Jews. Either way, I win with my self-righteous posturing, and that's really all that matters.

hakimashou posted:

We should start a blog about cultural appropriation in China.

I bet these people don't know that the Chinese appropriated the term hamburger to refer to chicken sandwiches.

on the left posted:

See http://www.reddit.com/r/caucasianchinese for true stories of microaggressions faced by Caucasian-Chinese people in China (the reddit was made to troll the Asian American subreddits)

on the left posted:

See http://www.reddit.com/r/caucasianchinese for true stories of microaggressions faced by Caucasian-Chinese people in China (the reddit was made to troll the Asian American subreddits)

VitalSigns posted:

This is beautiful. Mostly for the Chinese people calling them out on being racist white supremacists shits.

on the left posted:

How is it white supremacist to lampoon racism that the posters in that sub encounter every day? Even by the idiot's definition of racism (power+prejudice) it wouldn't count.

"Some Nazi shitbag" posted:

Take a look at the symptoms of Autism sometime, and you will learn american chinese but much more prevelant in our home country, chinar.
meaningless repetition of own words = duang
irritability = can't wait for 2 seconds in a line
involuntary imitation of someone else's movements = spitting, hacking, coughing, smoking 888 cigarettes
compulsive behavior = try to get them not to look at their phone every 2 seconds
screaming = self explanatory
stuttering, abnormal tone of voice, speech impairment, or speech loss = need I go on?
unaware of others' emotions
poor coordination, clumsiness, or tic
intense interest in a limited number of things or problem paying attention
lack of empathy
I have seen the light I think I have now found the real asian chinese problems with their racism.
my kids don't have this problem because they are caucasian chinese, but i am noticing more autistic traits the more time they spend with asian chinese. i notice some of these traits in myself, but i am one with china and will poo poo in whatever street i want to no matter the time/place etc.
is autism contagious? halp!

VitalSigns posted:

on the left posted:

All that stuff is true though, albeit humorously exaggerated.

on the left posted:

All that stuff is true though, albeit humorously exaggerated.