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Effectronica posted:He said that what you call food doesn't matter. I decided to illustrate this, with exactly as much intellectualism as his original statement had. I think you are being deliberately disingenuous, there is a difference between inaccurate but commincative labeling and gibberish. You are also not attacking the argument, but rather the way it is phrased, if you would like to attempt to attack the argument, please feel free.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 04:48 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 13:39 |
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So has anyone proposed a solution to cultural appropriation yet? Assuming it exists how can we use the law to protect bindis, lebkuchen, ska, etc from appropriation? Once we have established that appropriation has occurred, presumably there should be some kind mitigation to reduce the impact, especially considering how quickly cases of appropriation can spread, for example in the case of keffiyehs in 2006.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 04:49 |
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Let us English posted:Had work to do, didn't have time for a full reply. Congrats, you're upset about cultural appropriation. And yes, Kanji isn't a really big deal, just kind of dumb. Also, cultural appropriation isn't something only done in the US, so saying poo poo is done in other countries isn't really significant or worth arguing about. Squalid posted:So has anyone proposed a solution to cultural appropriation yet? Yeah I made a post that literally had a couple of problems and solutions in it. quote:Assuming it exists how can we use the law to protect bindis, lebkuchen, ska, etc from appropriation? Don't use a law for that, that's dumb. Edit: We did make a law that you can't trademark something that's denigrating, so that's one example of an actually efficacious law. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Mar 30, 2015 |
# ? Mar 30, 2015 04:50 |
OwlFancier posted:I think you are being deliberately disingenuous, there is a difference between inaccurate but commincative labeling and gibberish. No, I'm attacking the argument you actually made: OwlFancier posted:It's pretty silly to be upset because you think someone doesn't have sufficiently refined taste in food. People can eat what they like and call it what they like, and so can you. Maybe you wanted to make a different one, but unfortunately, you're stuck with a world in which watermelons are strawberries and strawberries are Gruyere cheese and Gruyere cheese is duck confit. Even limiting it to "inaccurate but commincative labeling" still leads us to the conclusion that a grilled cheese and tomato sandwich is a pizza, or at the very least a calzone.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 04:51 |
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Effectronica posted:No, I'm attacking the argument you actually made: You know the difference, you're still being deliberately obtuse. Calling a grilled cheese sandwich pizza isn't communicative, because nobody else in the world does that. Calling milk with flavored powder in it "milkshake" is communicative because people actually do that even if it isn't strictly accurate.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 04:55 |
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Obdicut posted:Congrats, you're upset about cultural appropriation. And yes, Kanji isn't a really big deal, just kind of dumb. I'm not upset, nor do I think this situation bears any resemblance to earlier examples of black musicians or native-themed sports teams. Trying to put all three situations under the same label seems ridiculous.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:02 |
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Some of the more extreme criticisms of cultural appropriation are really strange when applied to religion. Christianity is designed to be culturally appreciative of Jewish culture, communion is overtly a kind subversion of Passover. I've seen Catholics argue that Satanists shouldn't be allowed to publicly worship because they have a "mass" which appropriates the Catholic kind. Syncretism is pretty dominate in most religious traditions, Haitian Vodou for instance is a mix of Catholicism, African religions and indigenous American religions. Not sure there is any religion which isn't culturally appropriative.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:03 |
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Let us English posted:I'm not upset, nor do I think this situation bears any resemblance to earlier examples of black musicians or native-themed sports teams. Trying to put all three situations under the same label seems ridiculous. Okay. You're not upset, you just think it's dumb. Luckily, my 'remedy' for the problem of cultural appropriation that is kanji tattoos is people expressing the opinion that said tattoos are dumb, so we're kind of good here, except what you're actually upset about is that I'm calling it cultural appropriation. Like I said before, it's a tiny, trivial bit of cultural appropriation. You can also have tiny bits of racism, that aren't nearly as bad as serious racism. "Cultural appropriation" doesn't imply anything about scale, just as racism doesn't. Just like someone putting on a bit of a black accent and saying "Man" a lot nervously while talking to a black guy is racism, but is not as significant racism as was that black musicians weren't allowed to play for white audiences at major venues.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:08 |
OwlFancier posted:You know the difference, you're still being deliberately obtuse. You know, this whole thing comes down to "you shouldn't care!" and I'm giving your idea far more respect than it deserves by pretending you've put any actual thought in it. But in any case, people don't generally control their involuntary responses, such as to bastardizations of particular foods, and I have no inclination to try to suppress something so minor and inconsequential. Barlow posted:Some of the more extreme criticisms of cultural appropriation are really strange when applied to religion. Christianity is designed to be culturally appreciative of Jewish culture, communion is overtly a kind subversion of Passover. I've seen Catholics argue that Satanists shouldn't be allowed to publicly worship because they have a "mass" which appropriates the Catholic kind. Syncretism is pretty dominate in most religious traditions, Haitian Vodou for instance is a mix of Catholicism, African religions and indigenous American religions. Calling syncretism appropriation? What the gently caress.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:09 |
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Obdicut posted:
Okay I looked through your post history and we're supposed to wag our fingers and shake our heads disapprovingly at those drat teens and their saris. Sounds like an effective strategy.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:09 |
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Squalid posted:Okay I looked through your post history and we're supposed to wag our fingers and shake our heads disapprovingly at those drat teens and their saris. Sounds like an effective strategy. What would you suggest instead?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:10 |
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Why does this make you an insufferable rear end? I simply don't understand: if someone gets upset (like Obdicut's grandfather at Swedish Christmas cookies sold at stores), what is illegitimate about their being upset? Why are they wrong to be upset? Commodified food examples strike me as really clear-cut cases of appropriation, actually. All you need to do to find a heated argument about food appropriation is to look at the fight over whether Hummus is a "middle-eastern" thing or an "Israeli" thing.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:11 |
Obdicut posted:What would you suggest instead? I know what I would suggest, but it's horribly unethical.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:13 |
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Effectronica posted:You know, this whole thing comes down to "you shouldn't care!" and I'm giving your idea far more respect than it deserves by pretending you've put any actual thought in it. But in any case, people don't generally control their involuntary responses, such as to bastardizations of particular foods, and I have no inclination to try to suppress something so minor and inconsequential. If you aren't capable of voluntarily controlling your response to something as inoffensive as someone else's taste in food, that says more about you than it does the person doing the eating. This extends across the vast majority of this subject. What meaning or lack thereof somebody assigns to your actions and beliefs, does not in any way affect your ability to assign meaning to them. Expecting everybody else to respect and share your idea of what is important just because you think it's important, is extremely juvenile. You can believe whatever you like by yourself, but when you expect other people to respect ideas that don't make any sense to them, that's frankly silly. Unless you want to argue that cultural beliefs have inherent value simply because people believe them, there is no reason why anyone else should treat them as sacrosanct. You may elect to be respectful to a person, and very reasonably so, but that does not extend to their ideas, not simply because they have them. And if the person requires you to respect their ideas as well as them, that is a failing of the person. We expect people to separate themselves from their ideas sufficiently that they do not perceive an attack on their ideas, as a personal attack. That is the basis of all debate. If someone can't do that, it is not generally considered necessary to pander to their inability to do so.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:32 |
OwlFancier posted:If you aren't capable of voluntarily controlling your response to something as inoffensive as someone else's taste in food, that says more about you than it does the person doing the eating. No, that's not what I said and your foundation upon it thus collapses. But all it amounted to was "I'm a huge prick and I don't care who knows it!" Good for you.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:38 |
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Obdicut posted:What would you suggest instead? Nothing. Cultural transmission is inevitable, out-of-control, and irreversible. Although we may be able to positively effect the incidence of "appropriation" vs "exchange," however one likes to define these terms, by dismantling race/culture based power structures. I have no interest in meaningless hand-wringing. Effectronica posted:You know, this whole thing comes down to "you shouldn't care!" and I'm giving your idea far more respect than it deserves by pretending you've put any actual thought in it. But in any case, people don't generally control their involuntary responses, such as to bastardizations of particular foods, and I have no inclination to try to suppress something so minor and inconsequential. Oh well, I guess I can sympathize. For example I recently saw this French Vanilla Nescafe instant coffee bullshit. As an American of French heritage, it really pissed me off Nestle was exploiting my culture with this garbage. How do they get away with this poo poo!
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:39 |
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Squalid posted:Nothing. Cultural transmission is inevitable, out-of-control, and irreversible. Yeah, cultural appropriation is different, though. Getting Kanji tattoos is not cultural transmission, or if it is, then cultural appropriation is a subset of cultural transmission, with that whole 'appropriation' method of transmission. quote:Although we may be able to positively effect the incidence of "appropriation" vs "exchange," however one likes to define these terms, by dismantling race/culture based power structures. I have no interest in meaningless hand-wringing. Okay, well don't do the 'hand-wringing' then. Glad you're on board with dismantling race/culture based power structures. You on board with dismantling race/culture based power structures by not allowing denigrating names to be trademarked? quote:Oh well, I guess I can sympathize. For example I recently saw this French Vanilla Nescafe instant coffee bullshit. As an American of French heritage, it really pissed me off Nestle was exploiting my culture with this garbage. How do they get away with this poo poo! It didn't actually piss you off, right? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Mar 30, 2015 |
# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:42 |
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Sure why not. I guess that's sometimes tangentially related to cultural appropriation.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 05:53 |
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Obdicut posted:Like I said before, it's a tiny, trivial bit of cultural appropriation. You can also have tiny bits of racism, that aren't nearly as bad as serious racism. "Cultural appropriation" doesn't imply anything about scale, just as racism doesn't. Just like someone putting on a bit of a black accent and saying "Man" a lot nervously while talking to a black guy is racism, but is not as significant racism as was that black musicians weren't allowed to play for white audiences at major venues. Jarmak posted:Yes, people who are purists for the sake of being purists are insufferable asses. If you make your BBQ on a gas grill I'm going to think you don't make very good BBQ, but if I got actually upset with you for tarnishing the name of good BBQ with your inferior creation then I'd be a grade A rear end in a top hat. Don't imagine yourself being put into these situations, imagine your grandparents being put into these situations. I find it baffling that even if you disagree that these are cases anyone should get upset about you can't find empathy with someone who might feel a little bothered by some of these things. These aren't caricatures; real people are bothered by these things, so why not at least try and understand why they might be bothered? People can and are bothered by these things, and maybe wondering why they'd be bothered, other than their being insufferable asses, is at least worth thinking about?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 06:12 |
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I'm going to bold this and hope people see it, because it's both right and nobody sane is acting like appropriation (especially the examples being given) is the end of the world. It's just one of the many ways minority groups get shat on. Sometimes you just get a tiny bit of poo poo on you, and maybe there's more poo poo coming from a different direction, but it's still poo poo. The examples can be of differing degrees of severity, but come on, all people are asking is that you see the phenomenon being identified. I live in a place where my culture is commodified and sold to people while they ignore the context and country from where it came. Have you seen what passes for Camembert or Olive Oil in Asian grocery stores? I was literally spit on the other day by a guy with American shoes on his feet and an American cigarette in his hand. I understand why people might be bothered by it, but I still think they're insufferable asses. There are actual problems with racism in this world and people who try to turn bland hummus made by white people into even a tiny racial issue need to rethink their priorities. Let us English fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Mar 30, 2015 |
# ? Mar 30, 2015 07:12 |
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Let us English posted:I live in a place where my culture is commodified and sold to people while the ignore the context and country from where it came. Have you seen what passes for Camembert or Olive Oil in Asian grocery stores? I was literally spit on the other day by a guy with American shoes on his feet and an American cigarette in his hand. I understand why people might be bothered by it, but I still think they're insufferable asses. There are actual problems with racism in this world and people who try to turn bland hummus made by white people into even a tiny racial issue need to rethink their priorities. No we dont. People are allowed to prioritize different things or work on two things at the same time. If you don't get offended by something then that's fine but there are people out there with real grievances. Some black people don't mind when the n word is said. Others get upset. I don't think it's wrong for people to get upset when the word is used.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 09:09 |
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Good to see this thread has devolved into "how can you judge an involuntary mental reaction if you never act on it" and "You can't tell me what to think" Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I'm going to bold this and hope people see it, because it's both right and nobody sane is acting like appropriation (especially the examples being given) is the end of the world. It's just one of the many ways minority groups get shat on. Sometimes you just get a tiny bit of poo poo on you, and maybe there's more poo poo coming from a different direction, but it's still poo poo. The examples can be of differing degrees of severity, but come on, all people are asking is that you see the phenomenon being identified. Actually it is, the fact that it has already been commodified to the point you don't even notice it being a valid example is kind of amusing in context.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 12:12 |
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The other day I saw american-style ketchup in the grocery store and, on behalf of my gringo SJW bretheren, I was offended. Thanks Cultural Appropriation thread. Seriouspost: What culture isn't a hodge-podge of appropriated elements and made up traditions accumulated over the years? Like that's literally what culture is. Your hallowed tradition was someone else's appropriation, or just a lark from back in the day. Hell it might have been thoroughly commercial at its inception and thus, I guess, not authentic at all.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 13:38 |
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wateroverfire posted:The other day I saw american-style ketchup in the grocery store and, on behalf of my gringo SJW bretheren, I was offended. Don't feel too bad, ketchup is an offense to everyone.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 13:47 |
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SedanChair posted:Talking about supposed "appropriation" of European cultures is irrelevant because they are the ones doing the appropriating, ravenously, for all of history, unless we are talking about the Basques or something. Is that really a bad thing though? Would the world be better off if the west hadn't appropriated tea and chocolate and tobacco and all the rest? Borrowing and imitating and sharing enriches human culture.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:08 |
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hakimashou posted:Is that really a bad thing though? Would the world be better off if the west hadn't appropriated tea and chocolate and tobacco and all the rest? I'm pretty sure he was trolling and or joking. If not he's woefully ignorant of history. Though I'm sure someone in this thread will be along to tell us why Chinese and Korean appropriation chili pepper is a great insult to somebody.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:19 |
It's always a pleasure to see people shifting their definitions right in front of your eyes.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:21 |
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Let us English posted:I'm pretty sure he was trolling and or joking. If not he's woefully ignorant of history. Though I'm sure someone in this thread will be along to tell us why Chinese and Korean appropriation chili pepper is a great insult to somebody. We should start a blog about cultural appropriation in China. I bet these people don't know that the Chinese appropriated the term hamburger to refer to chicken sandwiches.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:29 |
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Next time i'm at a Mexican restaurant, i'm going to insist they put coriander on my taco instead of cilantro
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:31 |
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RonJeremysBalzac posted:Next time i'm at a Mexican restaurant, i'm going to insist they put coriander on my taco instead of cilantro You handle is deeply offensive to French people. Unless, of course, you are French. In that case, it demonstrates your racism against New York Jews. Either way, I win with my self-righteous posturing, and that's really all that matters.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:44 |
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TheImmigrant posted:You handle is deeply offensive to French people. Unless, of course, you are French. In that case, it demonstrates your racism against New York Jews. Either way, I win with my self-righteous posturing, and that's really all that matters. What if he's ethnically Jewish who's parents immigrated from France to New York?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:46 |
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hakimashou posted:We should start a blog about cultural appropriation in China. See http://www.reddit.com/r/caucasianchinese for true stories of microaggressions faced by Caucasian-Chinese people in China (the reddit was made to troll the Asian American subreddits)
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:55 |
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on the left posted:See http://www.reddit.com/r/caucasianchinese for true stories of microaggressions faced by Caucasian-Chinese people in China (the reddit was made to troll the Asian American subreddits) I knew a Canadian born chinese girl in China who didn't let the locals know she could speak Chinese.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:04 |
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on the left posted:See http://www.reddit.com/r/caucasianchinese for true stories of microaggressions faced by Caucasian-Chinese people in China (the reddit was made to troll the Asian American subreddits) This is beautiful. Mostly for the Chinese people calling them out on being racist white supremacists shits.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:09 |
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lol d and d is full of fags (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:09 |
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VitalSigns posted:This is beautiful. Mostly for the Chinese people calling them out on being racist white supremacists shits. How is it white supremacist to lampoon racism that the posters in that sub encounter every day? Even by the idiot's definition of racism (power+prejudice) it wouldn't count.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:12 |
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on the left posted:How is it white supremacist to lampoon racism that the posters in that sub encounter every day? Even by the idiot's definition of racism (power+prejudice) it wouldn't count. "Some Nazi shitbag" posted:Take a look at the symptoms of Autism sometime, and you will learn american chinese but much more prevelant in our home country, chinar. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Mar 30, 2015 |
# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:14 |
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All that stuff is true though, albeit humorously exaggerated.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:24 |
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on the left posted:All that stuff is true though, albeit humorously exaggerated. So you agree that literally all Chinese people living in China are autistic?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:33 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 13:39 |
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on the left posted:All that stuff is true though, albeit humorously exaggerated. okey-dokey
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:52 |