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ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

goatface posted:

A full spell list is a single class feature. Being able to enchant your fist five different ways is five class features.

This is how the 3e and Pathfinder devs saw things; it shouldn't come as a surprise.

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Generic Octopus
Mar 27, 2010

Unearthed Arcana posted:

Rogues are the masters of skills, and the class already pushes the boundaries of what we (and our playtesters) consider to be acceptable in terms of game balance. Giving them more skill potency could push rogues over the line.

'cause you know, when I think of something imbalanced in D&D, the first thing I think of is skill proficiencies/bonuses. And the Bard gets the same Expertise feature in addition to Bardic Inspiration, so how is the Bard not a problem for them and the playtesters?

djw175
Apr 23, 2012

by zen death robot

Generic Octopus posted:

'cause you know, when I think of something imbalanced in D&D, the first thing I think of is skill proficiencies/bonuses. And the Bard gets the same Expertise feature in addition to Bardic Inspiration, so how is the Bard not a problem for them and the playtesters?

Because the bard is a spellcaster.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Generic Octopus posted:

'cause you know, when I think of something imbalanced in D&D, the first thing I think of is skill proficiencies/bonuses. And the Bard gets the same Expertise feature in addition to Bardic Inspiration, so how is the Bard not a problem for them and the playtesters?
Because a Mearls-and-co table would be too busy making veiled homophobic remarks to notice how strong a bard is in play.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


Grimey Drawer
There's a lot of chat in there about exploration skills.

Generic Octopus
Mar 27, 2010

Unearthed Arcana posted:

The fighter archetypes are largely meant to be different flavors of the base class, in which most of the fighter’s combat strength lies. The Champion gains some versatility and a better chance of scoring critical hits.

Versatility? It gets the ability to jump slightly farther. Everything else is some slight +numbers and some regen.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


Grimey Drawer
They can get a second fighting style. They can do melee and range. ALL DAY (or until they run out of arrows, which are a critical resource you should always tightly track because

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

Because a Mearls-and-co table would be too busy making veiled homophobic remarks to notice how strong a bard is in play.

This one is new to me. Care to elaborate?

TheCosmicMuffet
Jun 21, 2009

by Shine

goatface posted:

They can get a second fighting style. They can do melee and range. ALL DAY (or until they run out of arrows, which are a critical resource you should always tightly track because

This one time I was playing a fighter and I rolled a high number on the dice. And then I rolled again, it wasn't as high, but it was still high enough, and I rolled more dice.

Then, this other time? I didn't roll very high. :(

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

PurpleXVI posted:

This one is new to me. Care to elaborate?
He and his just seem like the type to titter a little behind their DM screens and feign a lisp when someone says they want to play a bard, is all.

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God
Okay so was working on my recruit, and because someone was thinking of playing a champion fighter with my changes I fleshed them out, though haven't figured out what to expand the 18th level feature with.

Ryuujin posted:

Okay there was some questions about the Fighter houserules so I will go in more detail. Also I am allowing the Spellless Ranger variant and Favored Soul Sorcerer Origin if you want to try them out.

----

Fighters
Okay first and foremost all Fighters gain a Feat at 1st level, and any other level where they gain a Fighting Style through the fighter class. No they don't get more feats by multiclassing Paladin or Ranger.

The Feat they get should reflect the Fighting Style, or possibly their Background or future Archetype.

Second all Fighters gain another Feat at 3rd level when they select an Archetype.

The Feat they get should reflect the Archetype, or possibly their Background or Fighting Style.

Third a new Archetype and Fighting Style are open to Fighters. The Leader Archetype, and the Leader Fighting Style, the Fighting Style does little if you aren't a Leader Archetype though.

Fourth I am making major changes to the Champion Archetype. It keeps pretty much all of its features, but they are expanded.

Some suggestions for the various Archetypes and Fighting Styles:

Champion: Athlete, Charger, Grappler, Tavern Brawler
Battle Master: Actor, Inspiring Leader, Skilled, Lucky
Eldritch Knight: Mage Slayer, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, War Caster
Leader: Alert, Dungeon Delver, Healer, Inspiring Leader, Keen Mind

Archery: Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter
Defense/Protection: Shield Master, Sentinel
Two-Weapon Fighting: Dual Wielder
Great Weapon Fighting: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Savage Attacker
[Any]: Defensive Duelist, Tough

Improved Champion Fighter
3rd Level Improved Critical+mproved Damage
Keep the Expanded Crit Range at 3rd and 15th level. But add an increase to damage, like the Gladiator's Brute feature. At 3rd, and again at 15th level, the Improved Champion gets an extra weapon's worth of damage on each Melee attack. A 1d8 weapon does 2d8 at 3rd level and 3d8 at 15h, while a 2d6 weapon does 4d6 at 3rd and 6d6 at 15th.

This makes them the best at melee damage, kind of, and synergises with their own expanded crit feature that otherwise was fairly anemic.

7th Remarkable Athlete+Remarkable Strength
Keep Remarkable Athlete as is except for the part of using half proficiency on non proficient Str checks. This is because Remarkable Strength grants you Proficiency and Expertise in all Strength Checks, including Athletics where you can pick a new skill if you already had proficiency in Athletics, also grants Expertise in Str saves, and in Str attacks. Something that no Expertise feature currently grants.

This is an expansion of the Gladiator clearly having Expertise in Athletics, and a Fighter being worse at Athletics than a Bard or Rogue. It also helps with being accurate and hard to stop with Str saves.

10th Additional Fighting Style+Improved Fighting Styles
Okay keep the second Fighting Style, and with the other changes to Fighter means yet another themed Feat. Improved Fighting Style grants something a little extra to each of your Fighting Styles.

[*]Two-Weapon Fighting: If you are wielding a weapon in each hand, you can make 2 attacks with the offhand weapon as a Bonus Action
[*]Great Weapon Fighting: Brutal 3, reroll all weapon dice that show up as a 1,2 or 3 until they show a 4 or higher when wielding a two-handed or versatile weapon two-handed. A Critical Hit with such a weapon in two hands stuns until the ends of your next turn.
[*]Protection: Gain a Shield Bash attack when wielding a shield. Shield deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage as base, before other Champion features adjust it, and hitting with the Shield Bash forces a Str save DC 8+your Str Mod+Proficiency (do not double proficiency here.) Failure on the Save knocks the target prone. You can make a Shield Bash as a Bonus Action, and/or you can use it in place of any of your normal melee attacks with the Attack Action. A Critical Hit with the Shield Bash causes the Dazed condition, until the end of your next turn.
[*]Archery: Your Improved Crit Range is doubled with Ranged Weapon Attacks. Critical hits with Ranged Weapon Attacks now inflict Restrained condition, until they use an Action to remove the arrow, or succeed on a Str save DC 8+your Str Mod+Proficiency (do not double proficiency here.) Reminder that neither Improved Damage nor Remarkable Strength are used with Crossbow or Bow attacks.
[*]Dueling: Dueling Bonus damage is now increased to +2+Proficiency. Can now make an extra attack with a Bonus Action. Critical Hits under the same conditions that the Dueling Bonus damage is granted now inflict a Bleed. Each round until they succeed on a Con save DC 8+your Str Mod+Proficiency (do not double proficiency here), or receive a Medicine check beating that same DC, they bleed for an amount of damage equal to your Dueling Bonus Damage.
[*]Defense: When wielding a Melee weapon, or shield, can use your Reaction to add your Proficiency to AC against one attack against you made by a creature that you can see. You are immune to critical hits. When a creature would crit against you it is instead a normal hit, and no extra features that trigger off a critical hit are triggered.
[*]Leader: If you somehow gain the Leader Fighting Style, which is less useful without the Leader Archetype, all numerical bonuses are doubled.

AlphaDog? posted:

When you choose this archetype at third level, gain a number of grunts equal to your proficiency bonus. This number increases with your Proficiency bonus. See "Grunts", below.
Replace your Fighting Style with "Leader" (see below)
Gain the use of Formations, detailed below. You can use one Formation per turn.
Some of your Formations require the target to make a saving throw. The DC is 8 + prof bonus + Str or Dex mod, your choice
At 3rd, 7th, and 15th level, you (your grunts) gain proficiency in an extra skill
At 7th level, you can do some stuff involving using your grunts as scouts, see battlemaster 7th level ability.
At 15th level, when you roll initiative and have no unexhausted grunts remaining, one of your grunts becomes unexhausted.

Grunts

After you use a formation (ie, once the effect ends), one Grunt is Exhausted and can no longer be used.
Exhausted Grunts can be refreshed, one per short rest, all per long rest
Your attacks can originate from yourself or from any of your Grunts. If you have multiple attacks, each one can originate from a different grunt, the same grunt, or yourself.
Each non-exhausted Grunt can make an OA using your to-hit and damage rolls.
Attacks on Grunts count as attacks on you. Damage to grunts counts as damage to you.
Grunts have your movement rate, saves, AC, etc.

Fighting Style: Leader

At the start of each combat, decide whether your and your grunts gain
1: +1 to attack with ranged weapons
2: +1 bonus to AC
3: +2 bonus to melee damage rolls.

Formations:

You must have at least one non-exhausted Grunt in order to use a Formation. You may use one Formation per turn e: round.

Hold The Line:
Until the start of your next turn, enemies have disadvantage on all melee attacks against you and all allies adjacent to yourself or a grunt. You and your grrunts have Advantage on saving throws to avoid being tripped, grappled, knocked prone, or moved.

Outflank:
Until the start of your next turn, you and your allies and grunts gain advantage on melee attacks against opponents who have at least two of your grunts/allies adjacent to them.

Seize Them:
Every size Medium or smaller enemy adjacent to a grunt is restrained. Every size L creature adjacent to at least two grunts is restrained. This lasts until you use another formation or until all restrained monsters are no longer restrained, then exhausts a grunt. STR save as an action for monsters to break the restraint.

Push Them Back:
Every size Medium or smaller enemy adjacent to at least one grunt and every size Large enemy adjacent to at least 2 of you or your grunts is pushed back 10' if they fail a STR save. You and your grunts can follow them without provoking OA.

Massed Charge:
AS an attack action, you and your grunts move up to your movement rate, and then make a melee attack with advantage.

Evasive Maneuvering:
Any enemy attacking you or your Grunts gets disadvantage on their attack roll, as long as you and your grunts have moved on your previous turn. You gain Disadvantage on all melee (but not ranged) attacks. Lasts until another formation is used, then exhausts a grunt.

Defensive Maneuvering:
Until the start of your next turn, enemies have disadvantage on all attacks against you and your grunts. You and your grunts are not subject to enemy OA, but cannot attack.

Offensive Maneuvering:
Until the start of your next turn, enemies have advantage on all attacks against you and your grunts. You and your grunts are not subject to OA, and gain advantage on all attacks.

fidgit
Apr 27, 2002

And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
I haven't seen a fighter abillity like the old weapon specialization. Did I miss it in the feats, or do the fighting styles fill that need? What about house-ruling that the fighter adds his proficiency bonus to initiative, and maybe AC and damage rolls as well?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE
Proficiency bonus to AC and damage would gently caress up what little math the game has something fierce, but gently caress it, it's not like the Fighter has anything else really going for it.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

He and his just seem like
Judging people sure is terrible!

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

FRINGE posted:

Judging people sure is terrible!
Thank you for contributing to this thread again

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
Mike Mearls has demonstrably behaved shittily enough re: The Pundit, Zak S, that thing where someone at Paizo said it was a shame that there weren't any women working on D&D and Mearls got snippy on Twitter et all that there's no need to make stuff up about him when you have plenty of extant reasons at hand to think he's an rear end in a top hat.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

Thank you for contributing to this thread again
Hey you should make up some lies about people you dont like and then post them as "content"! Thats pretty great all-around!

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

FRINGE posted:

Hey you should make up some lies about people you dont like and then post them as "content"! Thats pretty great all-around!
Why are you getting so shirty at me about saying a mean thing about someone who totally-jokingly-guys had stat penalties for women as a proposed edition feature? I'm sorry I kicked your dog?

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

Why are you getting so shirty at me about saying a mean thing about someone who totally-jokingly-guys had stat penalties for women as a proposed edition feature? I'm sorry I kicked your dog?

To be fair, that was Monte Cook and not Mike Mearls. Mearls is still the kind of guy who likes Zak S and makes really dumb joke characters and responds to people talking about how the D&D design team has no women on it by talking about all the women who aren't on the design team that he works with, but he didn't do that.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

isndl posted:

Proficiency bonus to AC and damage would gently caress up what little math the game has something fierce, but gently caress it, it's not like the Fighter has anything else really going for it.

Proficiency to AC would actually help game balance, not throw it off even more. Consider that monster BAB goes up by level/CR, but a character stops getting more AC by level 3-5 unless the table knows that they have to be put on the 3.5-esque item treadmill again.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

gradenko_2000 posted:

Proficiency to AC would actually help game balance, not throw it off even more. Consider that monster BAB goes up by level/CR, but a character stops getting more AC by level 3-5 unless the table knows that they have to be put on the 3.5-esque item treadmill again.

Yeah, but you're not supposed to be fighting equal numbers of at-level monsters all the time (or at least that's what I'm gathering from how the new math works). The whole "bounded accuracy" thing and all means that WotC should have at least accounted for the player AC failing to scale.

A Fighter/Barbarian with ~28 AC thanks to stacking DEX/CON bonuses, shield bonus, and the proficiency bonus might be really loving hard for current monsters to hit. I'd have to dig up the numbers to be sure though. :effort:

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
A Fighter starts with AC 16 Chain Mail. Heavy armor means DEX doesn't matter.

Monsters from CR 1/8 to CR 2 have an attack bonus of +3. Against AC 16, that's a 40% chance to hit the Fighter.

Now, 5e doesn't have a "wealth by level" system like 3.5/4e, but a CR 3 monster goes then has an attack bonus of +4, so the Fighter should have upgraded to Splint Mail AC 17 by then to maintain a 40% chance to be hit.

A CR 4 monster then has an attack bonus of +5, so the Fighter should have upgraded to Plate Mail AC 18.

After that though, there aren't any more baseline increases to AC, so the Fighter will be hit more and more often to as much as 65% by the last tier of the game. The Fighter is effectively missing 6 AC, and I don't think it's any coincidence that Proficiency Bonus tops out at +6 as well.

Now, it is possible to get that +6 AC from a shield, from Fighting Style, or that it's not going to be necessary with good/clever tactics, but IMO it's rear end-backwards that a character would need to take the defensive option from their mutually exclusive choices just to keep pace. Strapping on a shield should make me get hit less than 40% of the time that everyone else is experiencing, not that I should strap on a shield just to maintain the level of toughness I already had previously.

The cues that 5e takes from 3.5 also supports the idea of giving players an inherent bonus to AC, as in the Defense Bonus variant rule from Unearthed Arcana.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.
5e is finally getting online support tools.

Through Fantasy Grounds.

Check out that pricing scheme. A basic subscription payment to be able to use it at all, then on top of that you have to purchase the D&D module, and an additional module to make characters, plus a specific module for whatever class you want to play - the price of which varies from $3 to $6 depending on the class. And the DM must purchase monster packs to give you things to fight.

What the gently caress.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Lemniscate Blue posted:

5e is finally getting online support tools.

Through Fantasy Grounds.

Check out that pricing scheme. A basic subscription payment to be able to use it at all, then on top of that you have to purchase the D&D module, and an additional module to make characters, plus a specific module for whatever class you want to play - the price of which varies from $3 to $6 depending on the class. And the DM must purchase monster packs to give you things to fight.

What the gently caress.

You can get all the classes for less than a year of Insider, though. Assuming that's permanent, that seems ok.

Edit: and get a lifetime site license, for grand total less than two years of Insider.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

I really wish WOTC still gave a poo poo about D&D not being in the hands of literal slapstick clowns

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

homullus posted:

You can get all the classes for less than a year of Insider, though. Assuming that's permanent, that seems ok.

Yeah, they've got bundles for classes ($50) and monsters ($50). The group still either has to all have a basic license ($39) or subscription ($4/month) or the DM an Ultimate license ($150) or subscription ($10/month) to even use any of it though.

Any more than, what, four PCs plus DM for a year-long campaign and you're looking at $200-$250 to play depending on what monsters you want.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Lemniscate Blue posted:

5e is finally getting online support tools.

Through Fantasy Grounds.

Check out that pricing scheme. A basic subscription payment to be able to use it at all, then on top of that you have to purchase the D&D module,
Well that's fair, it's a generic play engine and the module is separate, all sounds pretty rea-

Lemniscate Blue posted:

and an additional module to make characters, plus a specific module for whatever class you want to play - the price of which varies from $3 to $6 depending on the class. And the DM must purchase monster packs to give you things to fight.

What the gently caress.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha holy poo poo. What does the base D&D module even get you?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE
If I'm reading that correctly, you can use the free license and build/play as normal so long as you're connected to a GM who ponied up for the Ultimate license. Buying the modules allows you to build your characters while offline, and play with a GM who didn't go full hog. There are also rules included for playing 3.5e/OGL, 4e, Pathfinder, Numenera, and some generic stuff that you're supposed to use if you want to make your own system.

TheMadGent
Jan 7, 2015

homullus posted:

You can get all the classes for less than a year of Insider, though. Assuming that's permanent, that seems ok.

Edit: and get a lifetime site license, for grand total less than two years of Insider.

Shhhh, it's a thing that we hate. We hate the thing.

Rosalind
Apr 30, 2013

When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.

Does WOTC just not know that the last 15 or so years of app design happened? It's horrendously ugly. Morningstar was ugly too, but it was nicer than this.

edit: Also no mobile/tablet version because of course not.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸
Also which classes are the premium $6 classes, and which are the budget $3?

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012

Splicer posted:

Also which classes are the premium $6 classes, and which are the budget $3?

Rogue, wizard, fighter, and cleric are the budget classes. Everything else will cost you a fiver or so.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


Grimey Drawer
Fantasy Grounds is slow and clunky as all hell.

TheMadGent
Jan 7, 2015

Selachian posted:

Rogue, wizard, fighter, and cleric are the budget classes. Everything else will cost you a fiver or so.

Oh, so it's the classes who have some of their rules in the basic rules module. That makes sense.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Uhhhh I'm bad with money and bought Fantasy Grounds with an Ultimate License sometime last year, so if you have questions about it ask away I guess?

isndl posted:

If I'm reading that correctly, you can use the free license and build/play as normal so long as you're connected to a GM who ponied up for the Ultimate license. Buying the modules allows you to build your characters while offline, and play with a GM who didn't go full hog. There are also rules included for playing 3.5e/OGL, 4e, Pathfinder, Numenera, and some generic stuff that you're supposed to use if you want to make your own system.

This is correct. If the host/GM has an Ultimate License then everyone else can just be running the free/demo version, connect to the GM and play with all features enabled that the host/GM owns.

The program has free rulesets for 3.5e, 4e, 5e, Fate Core, Numenera and Pathfinder. Other rulesets have to be purchased or created by third parties (such as I have a free Labyrinth Lord ruleset)

What you're getting from that store link are "upgrades" such that the rules text can be referenced right from inside the program, or the Lost Mines of Phandelver thing where all of the plot points and encounters are already plugged in and the maps are ready to be shared.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Uhhhh I'm bad with money and bought Fantasy Grounds with an Ultimate License sometime last year, so if you have questions about it ask away I guess?


This is correct. If the host/GM has an Ultimate License then everyone else can just be running the free/demo version, connect to the GM and play with all features enabled that the host/GM owns.

The program has free rulesets for 3.5e, 4e, 5e, Fate Core, Numenera and Pathfinder. Other rulesets have to be purchased or created by third parties (such as I have a free Labyrinth Lord ruleset)

What you're getting from that store link are "upgrades" such that the rules text can be referenced right from inside the program, or the Lost Mines of Phandelver thing where all of the plot points and encounters are already plugged in and the maps are ready to be shared.

So you could play a Wizard and cast your spells with just the free rulesets included with the license, you'd just have to fork out cash if you wanted to show that rear end in a top hat Jarrod that yes, the rules say I can do that so stop being a dick?

The product page doesn't do a good job of explaining that, but that setup seems less unreasonable. Likely everyone will have a copy of the rules anyway.

Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Apr 7, 2015

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Splicer posted:

Also which classes are the premium $6 classes, and which are the budget $3?

Classes are cheap, it's the nine bucks for the 'character customization' you have to worry about. Gotta have your portraits, backgrounds, feats, and drag 'n drop equipment lists sold separately! Supposedly sharable, so I guess someone gets to be forever DM if the rest of the crew is stingy.

Big Bad Beetleborg
Apr 8, 2007

Things may come to those who wait...but only the things left by those who hustle.

It'll be interesting to see how it handles all the poorly written rules like stealth and polearm mastery.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

mirthdefect posted:

It'll be interesting to see how it handles all the poorly written rules like stealth and polearm mastery.

"ERROR: error code 2755: Ask your DM."

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Rosalind
Apr 30, 2013

When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.

mirthdefect posted:

It'll be interesting to see how it handles all the poorly written rules like stealth and polearm mastery.

A message box pops up telling you to ask the DM.

Dammit beaten.

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