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Zeitgueist posted:People are talking about appropriation in the context of other oppression, not as if it's separate or worse. The language of cultural appropriation functions to obscure the forms of oppression which perpetuate it.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:07
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Miltank posted:Maybe if native Americans weren't living in hopeless ghettos their culture wouldn't be threatened by hipsters? I would heartily endorse Native Americans sending war parties into Brooklyn and Portland to scalp hipsters. Miltank posted:The language of cultural appropriation functions to obscure the forms of oppression which perpetuate it. Seriously. Tell someone they shouldn't wear a knockoff Lakota ceremonial headdress to a Halloween drink-and-gently caress party because it's extremely disrespectful and also pretty racist and they'll probably understand. Say you shouldn't wear the headdress because of "cultural appropriation" will just make them tilt their head at you and look confused. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 05:18
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Zeitgueist posted:People are talking about appropriation in the context of other oppression, not as if it's separate or worse. Was that before or after "people" were talking about how we should be chaining ourselves to the doors of Panda Express and firebombing Taco Bell?
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Apr 7, 2015 05:27
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Seriously. Tell someone they shouldn't wear a knockoff Lakota ceremonial headdress to a Halloween drink-and-gently caress party because it's extremely disrespectful and also pretty racist and they'll probably understand. Say you shouldn't wear the headdress because of "cultural appropriation" will just make them tilt their head at you and look confused. Yeah. It's disrespectful because the Lakota are currently ghettoed in loving Pine Ridge- not because of liberal wank about wearing a hat that 'doesn't belong to your culture.'
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Apr 7, 2015 05:28
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You jest but I definitely remember a 3rd generation or something Japanese American crying cultural appropriation for white people treating rice cookers as an ordinary kitchen appliance. Because her family had one when she was growing up you see... edit: found it. fspades fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 05:31
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Seriously. Tell someone they shouldn't wear a knockoff Lakota ceremonial headdress to a Halloween drink-and-gently caress party because it's extremely disrespectful and also pretty racist and they'll probably understand. Say you shouldn't wear the headdress because of "cultural appropriation" will just make them tilt their head at you and look confused. No if you tell them it's racist they'll explain to you why it isn't because reasons. Cultural appropriation isn't really a thing you go around accusing people being racist at parties of doing, though. It's more of a "why is this racist" thing than a "is this racist thing"
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Apr 7, 2015 05:38
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The Insect Court posted:Was that before or after "people" were talking about how we should be chaining ourselves to the doors of Panda Express and firebombing Taco Bell? Yeah that's all this thread can talk about, thanks The Insect Court! Miltank posted:Yeah. It's disrespectful because the Lakota are currently ghettoed in loving Pine Ridge- not because of liberal wank about wearing a hat that 'doesn't belong to your culture.' Yeah, but I missed the part where the folks who are talking about cultural appropriation didn't know or care about oppression of the groups that they're concerned about the oppression of. It's like we can't discuss gender wage discrepancy because genital mutilation exists.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:37
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So other than cases where people are made uncomfortable about it, what is bad about cultural appropriation? If it is done with respect or at least with tact is it a bad thing, or simply a "thing"? Like in the example above, if you are wearing a war bonnet and are told to take it off because it is upsetting that is fairly simple example of being polite. What reasons do people have for continuing to wear one if they have been asked not to and they have just ignored it?
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Apr 7, 2015 06:43
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Josef bugman posted:Like in the example above, if you are wearing a war bonnet and are told to take it off because it is upsetting that is fairly simple example of being polite. What reasons do people have for continuing to wear one if they have been asked not to and they have just ignored it? Oh lots of stated reasons,  but no real one other than racism.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:32
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Josef bugman posted:So other than cases where people are made uncomfortable about it, what is bad about cultural appropriation? If it is done with respect or at least with tact is it a bad thing, or simply a "thing"? People are talking about cultural appropriation as an aspect of oppression and racism. Like the example of blackface influencing perceptions of blacks and blacks culture despite being clearly done to mock and ridicule blacks with the structure of blatant racism. Black people getting lynched is certainly a more severe expression of racism, so is Jim Crow, but we don't have to limit a discussion to anything but the most blatant aspects of oppression.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:39
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Zeitgueist posted:People are talking about cultural appropriation as an aspect of oppression and racism. How is adopting a part of someone else's culture "an aspect of oppression and racism", though? Even the most blatant examples in this thread like the guys wearing feathers at Redskins games are insensitivity at worst.
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Apr 7, 2015 08:25
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Zeitgueist posted:People are talking about cultural appropriation as an aspect of oppression and racism. So that would be cultural appropriation in the context of mockery, which comes under simple politeness as to why you should stop doing it. But does that mean that in the case of cultural appropriation by using different aspects of a culture separate from your own is okay when done with respect or nuance? Does that mean that, as long as it is not offensive, cultural appropriation is simply a thing and not neccesarily a bad thing? semper wifi posted:How is adopting a part of someone else's culture "an aspect of oppression and racism", though? Even the most blatant examples in this thread like the guys wearing feathers at Redskins games are insensitivity at worst. Except that it is not up to the person doing the wearing to decide that. It is up to the people it offends, and if they can provide a decent reason for it, including stuff like "I do not like it because it takes something and makes it poo poo". It's not like it is art or artistry designed to push at boundaries, it is simply mockery for the sake of it. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 08:36
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semper wifi posted:How is adopting a part of someone else's culture "an aspect of oppression and racism", though? Even the most blatant examples in this thread like the guys wearing feathers at Redskins games are insensitivity at worst. Its reducing a culture to a series of exoticised fetishes.
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Apr 7, 2015 08:41
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kustomkarkommando posted:Its reducing a culture to a series of exoticised fetishes. To the people doing it, it was never anything else to begin with, in all probability.
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Apr 7, 2015 08:52
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Josef bugman posted:So that would be cultural appropriation in the context of mockery, which comes under simple politeness as to why you should stop doing it. It depends. The reason why folks are so quick to reject the concept of CA is because it's a nuanced topic. There's no specific line that says this is and this isn't, it's a more granular aspect of oppression, like microaggressions. If you only see oppression in broad, stark strokes, it's not really going to go anywhere. semper wifi posted:How is adopting a part of someone else's culture "an aspect of oppression and racism", though? Even the most blatant examples in this thread like the guys wearing feathers at Redskins games are insensitivity at worst. I dunno, but I'm sure if a 15th person tries to explain it to you, this will be the time you understand.
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Apr 7, 2015 08:54
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah that's all this thread can talk about, thanks The Insect Court! You're right, I mean what kind of dumbass would suggest that Chinese restaurants are a form of cultural appropri... Gabriel Pope posted:If someone wants to look like a tacky idiot I have a hard time seeing the righteous rage. I only really think a line is crossed when someone's making profit from minorities at their own expense, e.g. authentic ethnic restaurants/craftsmen/artists being driven out of business by lovely knockoffs repackaged for mass consumption. Zeitgueist posted:That's mainly what people complain about when they complain about CA. Oh yeah. And by the way, one shouldn't accuse one's interlocutors of simply failing to understand the issue Zeitgueist posted:It depends. The reason why folks are so quick to reject the concept of CA is because it's a nuanced topic. There's no specific line that says this is and this isn't, it's a more granular aspect of oppression, like microaggressions. If you only see oppression in broad, stark strokes, it's not really going to go anywhere. when you're busy railing against the shameful usurpation of the proud Fijian people's long and sacred tradition of drinking water. Zeitgueist posted:Cultural appropriation is only something that happens to college socialists, not something used to oppress the global poor and PoC.
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Apr 7, 2015 09:12
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Zeitgueist posted:It depends. The reason why folks are so quick to reject the concept of CA is because it's a nuanced topic. There's no specific line that says this is and this isn't, it's a more granular aspect of oppression, like microaggressions. If you only see oppression in broad, stark strokes, it's not really going to go anywhere. To be honest to me it does not look particularly nuanced "are you being a dick and it is upsetting people who have done you no harm?" If the answer is "yes" then it is wrong action. If no then it is neither a good or bad action. Sure there might be some nuance available in terms of that, but it seems as if that pretty much sets out the basic terms of what cultural appropriation "is" in terms of moral stuff. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 09:48
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Wow, you suck at this.The Insect Court posted:You're right, I mean what kind of dumbass would suggest that Chinese restaurants are a form of cultural appropri... Yeah, authentic chefs, craftsmen, and artists being driven out of business by those that are oppressing them is actually CA. Nobody was talking about firebombing PF Changs though. quote:And by the way, one shouldn't accuse one's interlocutors of simply failing to understand the issue The point of that post was that Fiji is being exploited so that folks get overpriced drinking water. So uh, thanks for this, Insect Court!
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Apr 7, 2015 09:52
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Josef bugman posted:To be honest to me it does not look particularly nuanced "are you being a dick and it is upsetting people who have done you no harm?" If the answer is "yes" then it is wrong action. If no then it is neither a good or bad action. Sure there might be some nuance available in terms of that, but it seems as if that pretty much sets out the basic terms of what cultural appropriation "is" in terms of moral stuff. Specifically what is CA is something that is a nuanced discussion. Whether things that may or may not be CA are lovely, generally isn't. A lot of folks in the thread are fairly invested in the idea that either it exists and isn't wrong, or doesn't exist at all so relative to that, almost any argument is nuanced.
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Apr 7, 2015 09:54
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Zeitgueist posted:Specifically what is CA is something that is a nuanced discussion. Whether things that may or may not be CA are lovely, generally isn't. Ohhhhhhh, that is my problem. I was trying to work out if it was a good or a neutral thing and now it is people arguing whether classifying a specific type of dickishness under a label is wrong somehow. Fair enough.
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Apr 7, 2015 10:02
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Miltank posted:It exists, it just doesn't matter. Precisely
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Apr 7, 2015 14:44
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So, if Zhang Fuchuan goes to Milwaukee and opens a Chinese restaurant with authentic food from his native Sichuan province, but Francis Hartman opens an American style Chinese restaurant that has food people in Milwaukee like better, perhaps because they don't care for Sichuan mala cuisine, he has committed cultural appropriation against mr Zhang? And if instead he had opened a restaurant that served, say hamburgers, and the popularity of his hamburgers had been such that enough people picked hamburgers over sichuanese food that mr Zhang had to shut down, he wouldn't? And we would be asked to believe that cultural appropriation matters?
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Apr 7, 2015 14:58
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hakimashou posted:So, if Zhang Fuchuan goes to Milwaukee and opens a Chinese restaurant with authentic food from his native Sichuan province, but Francis Hartman opens an American style Chinese restaurant that has food people in Milwaukee like better, perhaps because they don't care for Sichuan mala cuisine, he has committed cultural appropriation against mr Zhang? Cultural appropriation is a method for Western SJWs to deny that they have any culture, while simultaneously fetishizing and ossifying the Cultures of Others. Also, it makes everyone feel good, because it provides another phenomenon onto which they can affix the feel-good label of racism. It's magic. The US/West/Jooz/colonizers/Christians (but only white Christians)/poopypanted folk have no culture, and if they do have culture it is poo poo culture, therefore cultural appropriation cannot happen against these cultures. People with magnificent headgear and cute ethnic costumes and the Deep, Soulful Wisdom of the Ages have Culture (and only use US culture in a detached, ironic way), and we must respect their Culture. Or else, like, racism.
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Apr 7, 2015 15:25
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Another question: why is focusing on cultural authenticity not simply seen as a form of fetishization and exoticising? For example, when I think of "authentic Chinese food," something I sometimes pine for, I don't mean food that is somehow "authentically exotic," I think of food I enjoyed eating in China, which is authentically delicious and also hard to find here in the US. While authentic Chinese food may give me a sense of nostalgia for China because of all the time I spent there, it's also something I enjoy eating. If a white guy opened a restaurant here that served authentic Chinese food of the kind I like, it wouldn't matter to me at all that he wasn't chinese. I don't fetishize or exoticize authenticity in a way that is related to people or culture. I think that someone who was critical of the white guy's authentic Chinese restaurant because he himself wasn't authentically Chinese is someone who exoticizes and fetishizes people and culture, and that the whole concept of "authenticity" when applied that way is simply another way of describing exoticism and fetishism. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 15:47
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah, but I missed the part where the folks who are talking about cultural appropriation didn't know or care about oppression of the groups that they're concerned about the oppression of. We can discuss gender wage discrepancy alongside FGM because they are both forms of exploitation- unlike cultural appropriation. E:^ the western obsession with authenticity is a reaction to consumer capitalism.
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Apr 7, 2015 16:11
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Miltank posted:E:^ the western obsession with authenticity is a reaction to consumer capitalism. Interesting bit of cultural diffusion, er, cultural appropriation and 'authenticity' here ... California rolls, invented in California and derided by sushi purists as 'inauthentic,' are trendy kaiten-zushi in Japan.
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Apr 7, 2015 16:22
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fspades posted:You jest but I definitely remember a 3rd generation or something Japanese American crying cultural appropriation for white people treating rice cookers as an ordinary kitchen appliance. Because her family had one when she was growing up you see... Any CA accusations with regards to Japan always make me laugh because Japan has pretty much the same context as the west when it comes to CA: former colonial power with one of the world's largest economies that massively invests in exporting its own culture. Like, you can go to the Japanese government tourism site and get lists of stuff like towns which have anime set in them or places where you can go do geisha dressup or the stores where you can buy the kinds of fashions that Gwen Stefani "stole".
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Apr 7, 2015 16:35
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How about this one? WHO ARE THE RACISTS? I NEED TO KNOW AT WHOM I CAN WAG MY FINGER STERNLY IN DISAPPROVAL OF RACIST CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. Carnaval in Japan, with second- and third-generation Japanese-Brazilian performers who emigrated from Brazil to Japan. I just know there's racism here, but who are the fetish peoples, and who are the racists? Please guide me to proper Doctrine on this important matter. CULTURE MUST STAY WITHIN ITS LINES, OR ELSE RACISM.
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Apr 7, 2015 16:39
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TheImmigrant posted:How about this one? WHO ARE THE RACISTS? I NEED TO KNOW AT WHOM I CAN WAG MY FINGER STERNLY IN DISAPPROVAL OF RACIST CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. no white people, therefore no racism or appropriation
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Apr 7, 2015 17:09
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TheImmigrant posted:Cultural appropriation is a method for Western SJWs to deny that they have any culture, while simultaneously fetishizing and ossifying the Cultures of Others. Also, it makes everyone feel good, because it provides another phenomenon onto which they can affix the feel-good label of racism. It's magic. The US/West/Jooz/colonizers/Christians (but only white Christians)/poopypanted folk have no culture, and if they do have culture it is poo poo culture, therefore cultural appropriation cannot happen against these cultures. People with magnificent headgear and cute ethnic costumes and the Deep, Soulful Wisdom of the Ages have Culture (and only use US culture in a detached, ironic way), and we must respect their Culture. Or else, like, racism. 
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Apr 7, 2015 17:16
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Please don't appropiate GBS posting culture, white devil.
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Apr 7, 2015 18:01
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WoodrowSkillson posted:no white people, therefore no racism or appropriation The Japanese are honorary whites fellow poster
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Apr 7, 2015 18:16
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Somehow I don't think food counts. For example, I cook a delicious approximation of Bulgogi beef, after having it at a glorious Korean barbecue place and instantly falling in love. I'd be more than happy to swap my personal burger recipe with some Korean folks for a better one, but I doubt anyone actually gives a poo poo enough to be mad or upset about it. Maybe if I started claiming that my "artisan"-made Kim-chee was better than the traditional kind, or as an original product (do not steal!) someone might give more than an eye roll.
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Apr 7, 2015 18:56
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Josef bugman posted:Except that it is not up to the person doing the wearing to decide that. It is up to the people it offends, and if they can provide a decent reason for it, including stuff like "I do not like it because it takes something and makes it poo poo". Who are you to decide what a decent reason is, you goddamn reactionary!?  
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Apr 7, 2015 19:04
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Talmonis posted:Somehow I don't think food counts. For example, I cook a delicious approximation of Bulgogi beef, after having it at a glorious Korean barbecue place and instantly falling in love. I'd be more than happy to swap my personal burger recipe with some Korean folks for a better one, but I doubt anyone actually gives a poo poo enough to be mad or upset about it. Maybe if I started claiming that my "artisan"-made Kim-chee was better than the traditional kind, or as an original product (do not steal!) someone might give more than an eye roll. This is just writing "I like food, so we aren't going to count food" using different words.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:06
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Miltank posted:The language of cultural appropriation functions to obscure the forms of oppression which perpetuate it. yeah oh deary me we shouldn't talk about academic language in a thread asking for an explanation of academic language that's just going too far
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Apr 7, 2015 19:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah oh deary me we shouldn't talk about academic language in a thread asking for an explanation of academic language Let us epistemologically deconstruct this polyshitology.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:10
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah oh deary me we shouldn't talk about academic language in a thread asking for an explanation of academic language Also when you say "Cultural appropriation" you're not allowed to contextualize 'cuz that's cheating.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:10
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I volunteer and help organize local Native American groups and most of them get a lot of their income from making traditional handicrafts and clothes, so its hilarious there's so much hand-wringing about this by white people so desperate to be seen as one of the good ones. Nobody cares who is wearing headdresses and dream catchers because it turns out they need income more than some outsider's romanticized idea of their own culture.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:11
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Bro Dad posted:I volunteer and help organize local Native American groups and most of them get a lot of their income from making traditional handicrafts and clothes, so its hilarious there's so much hand-wringing about this by white people so desperate to be seen as one of the good ones. Nobody cares who is wearing headdresses and dream catchers because it turns out they need income more than some outsider's romanticized idea of their own culture. Actually I don't think anybody was hand-wringing about first nations groups selling their own poo poo, the only person who complained about that was arguing that CA doesn't exist.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:13
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