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JFairfax posted:Generally they turn to drink or drugs. I dared admit I was when I was 8 or 9 (male) and was accused of making it up for attention in the last pedocaust thread. My point was it happened to me and I did not suffer any trauma or long term anything. I just had a "that was weird" and pretty much forgot about it. I don't wish anything on the kid (late teens maybe 20) aside from I hope he got help. It was coercion and not violent which defiantly had a part in it not really affecting me. This meant I was saying it's ok to rape 6 (then 5,4,3,2 and 18 month) babies and pedos deserve nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
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Apr 11, 2015 21:53
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Sorry if I missed it, but, do these new standards apply to other accusations of criminal behaviour? If a person is charged with a crime but found innocent do the police and prosecutors involved face consequences for their false accusations?
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Apr 12, 2015 02:50
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katlington posted:Sorry if I missed it, but, do these new standards apply to other accusations of criminal behaviour? If a person is charged with a crime but found innocent do the police and prosecutors involved face consequences for their false accusations? Ever noticed how police talk is peppered with the words 'alleged' and 'the accused'? I'm fairly sure that any legal entity which commits libel, or what have you, is open to a civil suit.
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Apr 12, 2015 10:56
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so who are these people who refuse to accept skepticism no matter what? I don't think that they exist. I think you made them up. People who refuse to accept skepticism (at least as a matter of public position) are people whose responses to the development of the UVa story (or any other story of this kind) consist of finding ways in which the story (or the approach) can still be rationalized as true. So, making statements such as: - "It doesn't matter if there are inconsistencies in the story; rape victims' stories often have inconsistencies." - "It doesn't matter if there are inconsistencies in the story; only 2-5% of rape accusations are false, so the odds are that this is true." - "It looks like none of the details about the story can be corroborated, but I still believe *something* happened to her." Or, when the story can't be rationalized as true, you try to paint everything in terms that don't make your side look bad, or that just make other people look bad: - "Oh great, now people will be mean to rape victims because they won't believe their stories. God, people are such dicks. Unlike me of course." - "MRAs will now think their wrong beliefs are true, darn it." - "God, Erdery is such a bad journalist. If she were a good journalist, my side would have won this one." There's plenty of posts like that in the old UVa thread. It's entirely possible that all these people were privately questioning the story. But at least publicly, their approach was just to close ranks and defend 'their side' (the 'pro-woman' side or however you want to moralistically define it as). Usually, when you make it clear that you have a 'side' that you will defend no matter what happens, it just makes you look less credible. And if you are never able to look at anything as a failure of your "side" and your approach to things, then that also makes you look less credible. Like, for instance, this article in which the author more or less says the CJR report is a win for her side (the side of 'good', I guess) and a defeat for the 'rape deniers' because Jackie didn't lie about it because she was a 'woman scorned', but because she wanted sympathy. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Apr 12, 2015 |
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Apr 12, 2015 10:56
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katlington posted:Sorry if I missed it, but, do these new standards apply to other accusations of criminal behaviour? If a person is charged with a crime but found innocent do the police and prosecutors involved face consequences for their false accusations? When you are charged with a crime and found not guilty, usually 1) there was a crime (or at least an event that may or may not have been criminal in nature) and 2) the police and prosecutors believed you were responsible for it. When people talk about 'false rape accusations', they are usually talking about cases where there was no rape, and the accuser knows there was no rape. If prosecutors try to send someone to prison for a crime that they knew didn't even happen, there would probably be consequences.
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Apr 12, 2015 10:59
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Pedro De Heredia posted:People who refuse to accept skepticism (at least as a matter of public position) are people whose responses to the development of the UVa story (or any other story of this kind) consist of finding ways in which the story (or the approach) can still be rationalized as true. Are any of these people in this thread?
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Apr 12, 2015 12:58
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Pedro De Heredia posted:People who refuse to accept skepticism (at least as a matter of public position) are people whose responses to the development of the UVa story (or any other story of this kind) consist of finding ways in which the story (or the approach) can still be rationalized as true. So, making statements such as: Hmmm. Well, I wonder why this is relevant, because you can't point to any concrete person. But let's say you have a situation where people descend on anything that has to do with a case of sexual assault in order to attack the accuser and defend the accused. Do you think that this has no impact on whether people would behave defensively or not? Maybe you should look at the plank within thy own eye.
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Apr 12, 2015 13:48
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Pedro De Heredia posted:People who refuse to accept skepticism Claiming a story is outright false because you find the details hard to believe is not skepticism. Pretending that these threads are always "skeptics" versus "rabid SJWs" is just as much an attempt to whitewash terrible positions.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:11
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archangelwar posted:Claiming a story is outright false because you find the details hard to believe is not skepticism. Pretending that these threads are always "skeptics" versus "rabid SJWs" is just as much an attempt to whitewash terrible positions. The fact that the UVA thing was actually false was basically a lucky break for 'skeptics'.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:37
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Nevvy Z posted:The fact that the UVA thing was actually false was basically a lucky break for 'skeptics'. Pedro De Heredia posted:
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Apr 13, 2015 17:50
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A stopped clock is correct about false rape accusations twice a day.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:09
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Popular Thug Drink posted:A stopped clock is correct about false rape accusations twice a day. I bet those Duke lacrosse players are awfully happy about the clock stopping for them.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:56
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to be honest i'd rather be falsely accused of rape than trotted out every time some mysoginist wants to make a point about lying bitches
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Apr 13, 2015 19:12
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Nevvy Z posted:The fact that the UVA thing was actually false was basically a lucky break for 'skeptics'. yeah its terrible when people dont get raped
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Apr 13, 2015 19:14
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Blue Raider posted:yeah its terrible when people dont get raped why do you hate women? is it because you're a virgin loser?
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Apr 13, 2015 19:15
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Blue Raider posted:yeah its terrible when people dont get raped I'm imagining ISIS letting someone go when everyone thought that they'd be killed, and just absolutely laying into people for assuming that ISIS are a bunch of murderers, smacking my lips as I type "Yah, it's terrible when people don't get murdered. loving SJCs".
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Apr 13, 2015 19:16
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Popular Thug Drink posted:to be honest i'd rather be falsely accused of rape than trotted out every time some mysoginist wants to make a point about lying bitches World's Easiest Thing to Say From the Comfort of the Internet. I'd never want you to be subjected to that, PTD. Unless you want to volunteer for it and document it? Surely that won't be a problem.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:58
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Radbot posted:World's Easiest Thing to Say From the Comfort of the Internet. im confident in my distaste for people who are overly worried about false rape accusations as being disingenuous and with an undercurrent of hatred of women and relationships
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Apr 13, 2015 20:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:im confident in my distaste for people who are overly worried about false rape accusations as being disingenuous and with an undercurrent of hatred of women and relationships There's a difference between being overly paranoid about false rape accusations, which you are correct about here, and how you'd react to you, yourself, being one of the extremely few people to whom it actually happens. Being falsely accused of any crime, especially one that carries a very strong stigma with it, is an extremely scary, unpleasant experience, even if it's not particularly likely to happen to you. People are falsely accused and occasionally convicted of all sorts of crimes. Personally, I think that anyone who would make a false accusation of rape is a very lovely person, because they are loving with the accused's life in a very serious way, and making it harder for actual victims to be believed and receive justice.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:12
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PT6A posted:
One of the main problems in talking about this is that a lot of false stories about rape are not accusations of rape. That's what the article that someone linked (in order to criticize it, but w/e) was saying, and what I said earlier. False claims of rape often come with no specific person being accused, but rather a generalized other. The false rape statistics are often muddled with these sorts of reports. Add in that in some states you cannot get an abortion without a claim of rape, and you further muddle the statistics. There's a conflation of these evil, evil women out to destroy others lives with their horrible accusations, and women who are claiming rape for a practical reason but not actually naming someone who did it to them.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:20
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Effectronica posted:I'm imagining ISIS letting someone go when everyone thought that they'd be killed, and just absolutely laying into people for assuming that ISIS are a bunch of murderers, smacking my lips as I type "Yah, it's terrible when people don't get murdered. loving SJCs". Wait, what, ... what are you trying to present as an example? I understand what you're saying as... 1) ISIS kidnapped some people 2) they don't kill'em for once 3) you go on a moral crusade of defending ISIS 4) a wild stereotype appears I admire your sick and diseased mind Effectronica.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:30
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Wait, what, ... what are you trying to present as an example? You got step 3 wrong. Basically: 1. A rape accusation is made 2. It turns out to be false, which is statistically highly unlikely 3. People use this as a reason to be skeptical about rape reports in general 4. Other people argue that that is dumb.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:31
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Obdicut posted:You got step 3 wrong. Ok, what is step 3? I honestly can't decipher that sentence. e: ^ ah thanks
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Apr 13, 2015 20:32
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PT6A posted:There's a difference between being overly paranoid about false rape accusations, which you are correct about here, and how you'd react to you, yourself, being one of the extremely few people to whom it actually happens. Being falsely accused of any crime, especially one that carries a very strong stigma with it, is an extremely scary, unpleasant experience, even if it's not particularly likely to happen to you. People are falsely accused and occasionally convicted of all sorts of crimes. getting hit by lightning is awful but i'm going to assume that people who won't shut up about lightning are actually just afraid of the sky
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Apr 13, 2015 20:33
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Popular Thug Drink posted:to be honest i'd rather be falsely accused of rape than trotted out every time some mysoginist wants to make a point about lying bitches You'd fight tooth and nail against the accusation if you were actually put in that position. Get off your high horse.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:05
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Fister Roboto posted:You'd fight tooth and nail against the accusation if you were actually put in that position. Get off your high horse. i'd rather x than y doesn't imply i would like for either to happen reading comprehension 101 with popular thug drink. gather round all you folks who are inexplicably terrified of rare events for reasons not at all related to a pervasive feeling of insecure creepiness
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Apr 13, 2015 21:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'd rather x than y doesn't imply i would like for either to happen If you fought the accusation and won, the latter would happen.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:getting hit by lightning is awful but i'm going to assume that people who won't shut up about lightning are actually just afraid of the sky Indeed so. That doesn't mean that being falsely accused of rape would be better than being pointed to as an example of someone who falsely accused someone else of rape, because the latter brought it on themselves and (depending on the circumstances) probably doesn't face a felony conviction as a result. You can very easily avoid making up stories about being raped, but you cannot necessarily control whether you are falsely accused of a crime (any crime). Obdicut posted:One of the main problems in talking about this is that a lot of false stories about rape are not accusations of rape. That's what the article that someone linked (in order to criticize it, but w/e) was saying, and what I said earlier. False claims of rape often come with no specific person being accused, but rather a generalized other. The false rape statistics are often muddled with these sorts of reports. Add in that in some states you cannot get an abortion without a claim of rape, and you further muddle the statistics. This is a good point. People who accuse "no one in particular" of rape are not nearly as bad as people who accuse a specific person of rape, for obvious reasons. It's also pretty hosed up that there's any situation where a woman would have to lie about being raped for a practical purpose, so maybe we should deal with those forms of misogyny and discrimination as well. I still think it's generally a bad thing to lie about being the victim of a serious crime, even if no one ends up suffering for it directly, but I can understand why people would do it.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:16
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PerpetualSelf posted:You know false rape stories keep hitting the front page of reddit like they are big issues. I'm really worried as to who may be pushing the stories. There's obviously some kind of raiding/brigading going on and it's pretty frightening. I'm really worried it's political operatives instead of just creep red pillers or women haters. It seems like a big issue, are you honestly suggesting a falsely accusing someone of a crime that can land you in the hellish torture chambers that are american prisons for decades is not? It's interesting that your first conclusion to this happening is exactly the same as a red-piller seeing a bunch of articles on rape: "oh can't be happening, must be evil agenda-pushers." Obdicut posted:Add in that in some states you cannot get an abortion without a claim of rape, and you further muddle the statistics. Simply not true. tsa fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 21:20
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tsa posted:
I'm kind of dumb that I thought this was still true for Missouri, but it is true that in many places that in order for it to be funded--and therefore actually accessible to the woman--it either has to be a legitimate danger to her health, incest, or rape. By the way, you never responded to the clarification of the difference between legal innocence and factual innocence. Are you straight on that now? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 21:28
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Popular Thug Drink posted:im confident in my distaste for people who are overly worried about false rape accusations as being disingenuous and with an undercurrent of hatred of women and relationships Me too, emphasis on the important part. It's unfortunate for PTD that he or she is unable to understand that yes, even things that are rare can be really bad. It's exactly this kind of thinking that leads to folks thinking transgendered people aren't "overly" protecting because they're rare. Radbot fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 21:49
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Radbot posted:Me too, emphasis on the important part. I'm glad you made this post before suffering heart failure from fear of false accusations
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Apr 13, 2015 21:50
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Effectronica posted:I'm glad you made this post before suffering heart failure from fear of false accusations idgi?
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Apr 13, 2015 21:51
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Radbot posted:idgi? You're pointing to "overly" like it's a piece of driftwood and you're escaping from the wreck of the Pequod, so I am suggesting you feel an all-consuming fear of false accusations is reasonable.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:53
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Effectronica posted:You're pointing to "overly" like it's a piece of driftwood and you're escaping from the wreck of the Pequod, so I am suggesting you feel an all-consuming fear of false accusations is reasonable. No, it's pretty clear that false accusations are rare and rape is way worse than false accusations, I have no idea what you're talking about. What I'm saying is that false accusations, despite being rare, can have serious impacts on people's lives and shouldn't be taken lightly.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:55
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Radbot posted:No, it's pretty clear that false accusations are rare and rape is way worse than false accusations, I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh word??
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Apr 13, 2015 21:56
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thank you for clarifying your opinion that you think false accusations are bad while we're on the subject, what do you think of murder? approve/disapprove?
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Apr 13, 2015 21:56
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Obdicut posted:You got step 3 wrong. This not a remotely apt comparison, ISIS is a specific organization that has themselves murdered a poo poo ton of people already. It would be closer to someone doubting an accusation against someone who already has like 100 rape convictions.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:10
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Jarmak posted:This not a remotely apt comparison, ISIS is a specific organization that has themselves murdered a poo poo ton of people already. It would be closer to someone doubting an accusation against someone who already has like 100 rape convictions. Please don't vivisect analogies. It's perverse.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:12
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Jarmak posted:This not a remotely apt comparison, ISIS is a specific organization that has themselves murdered a poo poo ton of people already. It would be closer to someone doubting an accusation against someone who already has like 100 rape convictions. All analogies are dumb, basically. But the main point is: False rape accusations are extremely low. Anecdotal cases of false rape accusations do not change that. Given that we know that false rape accusations are extremely low, it makes all sorts of sense to put credibility into a rape accusation, all other things being equal. In the Rolling Stone story, not all things were equal: a gang-rape on broken glass is less credible from the get -go. However, since Rolling Stone generally has journalistic credibility, that made a lot of people look past the less-credible elements of the story. But that particular story has nothing to tell us about whether or not to believe the next 'rape accusation'.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:17
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