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Oh but Miltank, one person leaving the rez won't fix anything so why are you even talking about it.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:05
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Miltank posted:How stupid do you think I am?? Of course the rez, or the ghettos, or coal country Virginia are not inherently poor or disfunctional; economic exploitation has created a situation where poverty is rampant. You think it is idiotic to leave a place where there are few opportunities for you or your children? Is it idiotic for Mexican immigrants to seek a better life in the US? You have some real difficulties reading, don't you? Do you remember what started this whole conversation?
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Apr 13, 2015 16:06
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Effectronica posted:You have some real difficulties reading, don't you? Do you remember what started this whole conversation? Yes. You didn't understand why I would assumed someone would want to leave the rez.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:11
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SedanChair posted:Oh but Miltank, one person leaving the rez won't fix anything so why are you even talking about it. One person gets out which is good. Everybody else is still stuck there which is bad.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:12
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Morkyz posted:What is it about the concept of cultural appropriation that makes people act so weird about it? people getting worked up about it as much as effectronica have waaaay misplaced priorities and need to encounter real life Arglebargle III posted:It's just so centered in the American experience, you know? The idea of Chinese or Puerto-Rican or Irish identity being threatened by whatever college girls are wearing to parties could only ever make sense in the context of immigrant communities.  you just don't understand, comrade
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Apr 13, 2015 16:31
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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All men are brothers.
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Apr 13, 2015 17:48
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Miltank posted:Yes. You didn't understand why I would assumed someone would want to leave the rez. No, I asked why you're assuming everyone wants to leave the reservations, when you assumed that someone who has any success would immediately leave them, rather than supporting family or using that money to improve the conditions on the reservation. That is, you made a telling assumption about what motivates people, which explains many of your issues with certain concepts.
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Apr 13, 2015 17:57
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Effectronica posted:No, I asked why you're assuming everyone wants to leave the reservations, when you assumed that someone who has any success would immediately leave them, rather than supporting family or using that money to improve the conditions on the reservation. That is, you made a telling assumption about what motivates people, which explains many of your issues with certain concepts. No, I said he might make enough money so that he, (and presumably his family) would be able to leave, which many people do if they can. Do you resent successful black artists (as just a single, high-profile example) who move away from the dangerous neighborhoods they grew up in? I think what you have described is the proper action to take, but I don't expect everyone, or even most people, to abandon a better future for themselves and their children by choosing to live in such environment. Miltank fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 18:08
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Effectronica posted:They can do it if they prove that they murdered you over a course of three days. Wow, Eff. Try to keep it together. That post isn't in the spirit of D&D  Fyi, SedanChair is not black because he is a white guy who identifies and presents as a white guy because he's a creepy white guy who at some point decided he could pretend to be black in D&D, either just as a lazy troll or some sort of weird attention seeking. And after not bothering to mention it he's doubling down on it because he's found someone stupid enough to keep believing him. Naturally, the fact that what is a pretty blatant example of appropriation coming from inside the thread is being ignored by you is kind of ironic.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:18
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Miltank posted:No, I said he might make enough money so that he, (and presumably his family) would be able to leave, which many people do if they can. I don't know, what would lead you to think that I would think that? The Insect Court posted:Wow, Eff. Try to keep it together. That post isn't in the spirit of D&D The problem here is that even if this were true, and it isn't, it'd still be coming from the guy that exists solely to snidely accuse people of being antisemitic, and derived from white supremacists. Not really what you'd call trustworthy sources.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:23
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That's all you have to say huh?
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Apr 13, 2015 18:25
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Miltank posted:That's all you have to say huh? I asked a question, which is quite relevant to what you said. Why would you assume that I would resent someone who took such an action? Is it because you have a mind that only really works on the level of binary opposition, or is it because you're uncomfortable with this line of questioning, or what?
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Apr 13, 2015 18:29
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Sorry, you will have to actually answer my question first and maybe elaborate on your position a bit. e: if you don't see how the question pertains to our discussion (it does so directly) then say so and I will explain.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:38
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Miltank posted:Sorry, you will have to actually answer my question first and maybe elaborate on your position a bit. I wish you the best of luck trying to get a
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Apr 13, 2015 18:44
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Miltank posted:Sorry, you will have to actually answer my question first and maybe elaborate on your position a bit. No, I don't resent people who do that, no matter what their skin tone is. Now answer my question, and I'll give you some elaboration. blowfish posted:I wish you the best of luck trying to get a I wish you the best of luck in your crusade for dispassion.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:50
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Effectronica posted:No, I don't resent people who do that, no matter what their skin tone is. Now answer my question, and I'll give you some elaboration. Because you make it clear that you believe the petit-bourgeois of exploited communities ought to stay within their own communities to "use their money to improve the conditions on the reservation." Your claim that I assumed everyone wants to leave the reservations is entirely false, here is what I posted: Miltank posted:One guy making artisanal canoes MIGHT earn himself a ticket off the rez. You could easily replace "off the rez" with "out of the ghetto" or "out of coal country." Miltank fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 19:08
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Effectronica posted:I wish you the best of luck in your crusade for dispassion. Full Nihilism now. Vote blowfish.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:10
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Miltank posted:Because you make it clear that you believe the petit-bourgeois of exploited communities ought to stay within their own communities to "use their money to improve the circumstances on the reservation." Your claim that I assumed everyone wants to leave the reservations is entirely false, here is what I posted: *In nasally voice* "petit-bourgeois of exploited communities" I didn't say that at all. I said that you assumed that anyone who was successful would want to leave reservations, and that people might also stay to provide for family and to contribute to the well-being of the community generally. I didn't say what anyone should do, up until now, when I suggest you go carry an copper pipe to the top of a hill in a thunderstorm and wave it high. While you did make that assumption because that's what you leapt to immediately- a "ticket off the rez". It's also funny, because if you can make a business selling handmade canoes while still on the reservation, you have much less reason to leave than a musician or visual artist who needs to tour/exhibit. You assume that there are no "pull" factors behind why people make that decision, too.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:13
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*pushes glasses up higher on her nose; she is a massive dork and the whole class is tired of hearing her opinions* "actshually, cultshual appropriation ish an sherius threat to the minority communitiesh everywhere"
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Apr 13, 2015 19:18
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Miltank posted:*pushes glasses up higher on her nose; she is a massive dork and the whole class is tired of hearing her opinions* Cornered, Miltank deploys his secret technique- calling someone a woman.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:21
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Aren't you?
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Apr 13, 2015 19:21
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It seems I may have committed the most serious cyberbully crime of them all- an unprovoked misgendering.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:26
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Miltank posted:Aren't you? I would like to hear how you came to this conclusion, but not as much as how very basic mockery was the straw that broke the camel's back on responding.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:27
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You made many posts in the lady chat thread and I have seen people refer to you as a woman in the past. The cognitive dissidence of mocking someone for being a theory dork after writing as many pages in this thread as you have, has broken my will to continue. Well debated, my friend.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:30
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Miltank posted:You made many posts in the lady chat thread and I have seen people refer to you as a women in the past. The cognitive dissidence of mocking someone for being a theory dork after writing as many pages in this thread as you have, has broken my will to continue. Well debated, my friend. I'm laughing in real life.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:30
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Effectronica posted:I'm laughing in real life. Me too.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:43
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Miltank posted:You made many posts in the lady chat thread and I have seen people refer to you as a woman in the past. The cognitive dissidence of mocking someone for being a theory dork after writing as many pages in this thread as you have, has broken my will to continue. Well debated, my friend. I'm afraid you may be appropriating the genderblob culture.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:51
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Effectronica posted:Someone should really kill you for being a huge racist. Wow, Eff. I usually get a laugh out of your dumb opinions, and I know you won't hesitate to screech "racist!" at anyone who doesn't toe your imaginary line, but wishing death on people? Hardcore man. 
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Apr 13, 2015 23:28
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The minority culture does not and should not need to 'adopt' any ritual, that's a clear case of imposition that you can rightfully and morally oppose. Why? It's immediately effecting the welfare of some minority member for no real reason. So if your worry is that CA must lead to something bad, and it therefore should be opposed, what is the reason for not just opposing The Bad in the first place? If it's because you think that that imposition cannot be opposed, then why is opposing CA any easier? I don't want to 'force' a loss of diversity, but I do not see the value in cultural diversity. Analogies here are usually made with biological diversity, but the environment is different: You have horizontal transfer of any cultural elements (through exchange), elements are products of the mind and so can be created and recreated at will, and a 'culture' is not alive in the same way a living thing is, so it's life has no value other than what people may find in it. Does this 'narrow the human mind'? Not really, I don't think that human thought is constrained in that way (strong sapir-whorf is wrong, which isn't itself proof, but I think it is suggestive). That and sub-cultures will always spontaneously form, divide and then die. So whether there is any loss in diversity at all is debatable, it may just be a different kind of diversity. I'd much rather let things roll out as they would naturally, because there's nothing to gain in a particular kind of cultural environment. But why can't you apply that logic generally to racism or other isms? Because it's not an abstract thing being hurt in those cases, it's real people, whose lives and welfare have value. Everyone should be able to recognize that difference. I don't think you'll find any person who isn't already a racist that, when shown proof that unconscious racism is a thing (which hard scientific proof exists for), would argue against mitigating it. As for tolerance, I have no idea where you're getting this idea that tolerance is only marginally applied to race, 'racial tolerance' is a thing . But okay, let's go with your assumption that it was never 'meant' to be anything more than what it is today. Would that no imply, as I've been saying, that it has to be replaced? This isn't 'vulgar marxism', or indeed, anything to do with marxism. It's anti-moralism. It's intellectually lazy to blame Bad Things on the Bad Character of Bad People. Either you take it into account and deal with it, or you don't, and all you can then do is complain about it endlessly. Moralism is a device designed for self-pity. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 03:17
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I don't think this issue is confined to california but I can see why they'd be concerned. Mexican food is delicious and that's problematic.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:15
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I was unsure about it at first but Effectronica has done an excellent job convincing me CA itself is a non-issue, and that anything negative that could be attributed to it is instead related to other underlying factors.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:30
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RBA Starblade posted:underlying factors. A tortilla is an underlying factor.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:37
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Arglebargle III posted:A tortilla is an underlying factor. A very tasty one!
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Apr 14, 2015 16:15
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Arglebargle III posted:A tortilla is an underlying factor. In Spain, a tortilla is an omelet. In Mexico, a tortilla is made of corn or wheat flour. Where is the racism and CA in this, and what is the most fashionable position to take regarding it? Effluent, please offer your Guidance.
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Apr 14, 2015 16:31
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rudatron posted:The minority culture does not and should not need to 'adopt' any ritual, that's a clear case of imposition that you can rightfully and morally oppose. Why? It's immediately effecting the welfare of some minority member for no real reason. So if your worry is that CA must lead to something bad, and it therefore should be opposed, what is the reason for not just opposing The Bad in the first place? If it's because you think that that imposition cannot be opposed, then why is opposing CA any easier? I don't want to 'force' a loss of diversity, but I do not see the value in cultural diversity. Analogies here are usually made with biological diversity, but the environment is different: You have horizontal transfer of any cultural elements (through exchange), elements are products of the mind and so can be created and recreated at will, and a 'culture' is not alive in the same way a living thing is, so it's life has no value other than what people may find in it. Does this 'narrow the human mind'? Not really, I don't think that human thought is constrained in that way (strong sapir-whorf is wrong, which isn't itself proof, but I think it is suggestive). That and sub-cultures will always spontaneously form, divide and then die. So whether there is any loss in diversity at all is debatable, it may just be a different kind of diversity. I'd much rather let things roll out as they would naturally, because there's nothing to gain in a particular kind of cultural environment. Using a ritual in some context makes leads to people associating it with that context, then whether or not it's "imposed" doesn't really matter in the long run. Groups don't have free will and can't just "not adopt" some ritual. rudatron posted:It's intellectually lazy to blame Bad Things on the Bad Character of Bad People. Either you take it into account and deal with it, or you don't, and all you can then do is complain about it endlessly. Moralism is a device designed for self-pity. I wouldn't say that. Moralism is a proven way to make people conform to moral ideals. Do you really think culture doesn't "constrain" the human mind?
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Apr 14, 2015 16:35
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If the ritual can have it's context changed without imposition, without harm being inflicted, then that means that that ritual bastardization is simply a normal result of how cultures interact and change over time. Or, in other words, the smaller culture can never preserve its integrity (even under the ideal conditions of 'no imposition') without great effort being expended to maintain it, constant political intervention and monitoring by people such as yourself. Why do that? Moralism is pointless if you want to change anything. Anyone can be moralistic, it's the easiest thing to do. But if you want real world solutions, you must discard it. If moralism were correct, a theocracy would be the best kind of government. That they are trash speaks to the uselessness of moralisms with respect to politics. Define 'constrain'.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:25
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rudatron posted:If the ritual can have it's context changed without imposition, without harm being inflicted, then that means that that ritual bastardization is simply a normal result of how cultures interact and change over time. Or, in other words, the smaller culture can never preserve its integrity (even under the ideal conditions of 'no imposition') without great effort being expended to maintain it, constant political intervention and monitoring by people such as yourself. Why do that? *waves hands thoughtfully, takes money from your pockets*
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Apr 14, 2015 17:28
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rudatron posted:If the ritual can have it's context changed without imposition, without harm being inflicted, then that means that that ritual bastardization is simply a normal result of how cultures interact and change over time. Or, in other words, the smaller culture can never preserve its integrity (even under the ideal conditions of 'no imposition') without great effort being expended to maintain it, constant political intervention and monitoring by people such as yourself. Why do that? People derive value from their rituals having meaningfulness. Do you mean "without other harms being done" or are you saying that their preferences aren't worthy or being respected? If people voice their displeasure whenever they see a high profile incidence of (anything really) then eventually people will get it into their heads that isn't isn't something to be done thoughtlessly. You're probably aware that drawing a picture of Muhammad is offensive to a lot of people, so even if you do it will be with the knowledge that some people won't like it. I don't think moralism is "correct" at all; but I think it's a useful way of making people not do things. You probably think it's wrong (or at least unwise) to wear blackface or shout racial slurs or a lot of other things that no one would give a second thought to a century ago; which should be a clear example of moralism changing things. Theocracy isn't the same thing as moralism, and I'd like to see you hold together a country in medieval times. By constrain. I mean "guide" basically. Toward some things/ideas/goals and away from others. Catholics in the US are like 1/4 of the population and 2/3 or the supreme court. Jews are like 2% f the population and 20% of nobel prize winners.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:37
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Non-Koreans who use "selca" are guilty of cultural appropriation.
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Apr 15, 2015 05:16
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Miltank posted:Yes. You didn't understand why I would assumed someone would want to leave the rez. Effectronica posted:No, I asked why you're assuming everyone wants to leave the reservations, when you assumed that someone who has any success would immediately leave them, rather than supporting family or using that money to improve the conditions on the reservation. That is, you made a telling assumption about what motivates people, which explains many of your issues with certain concepts. Miltank posted:No, I said he might make enough money so that he, (and presumably his family) would be able to leave, which many people do if they can. Miltank posted:That's all you have to say huh? Effectronica posted:I asked a question, which is quite relevant to what you said. Why would you assume that I would resent someone who took such an action? Is it because you have a mind that only really works on the level of binary opposition, or is it because you're uncomfortable with this line of questioning, or what? Miltank posted:Sorry, you will have to actually answer my question first and maybe elaborate on your position a bit. Effectronica posted:No, I don't resent people who do that, no matter what their skin tone is. Now answer my question, and I'll give you some elaboration. Miltank posted:Because you make it clear that you believe the petit-bourgeois of exploited communities ought to stay within their own communities to "use their money to improve the conditions on the reservation." Your claim that I assumed everyone wants to leave the reservations is entirely false, here is what I posted: Effectronica posted:*In nasally voice* "petit-bourgeois of exploited communities" Miltank posted:You made many posts in the lady chat thread and I have seen people refer to you as a woman in the past. The cognitive dissidence of mocking someone for being a theory dork after writing as many pages in this thread as you have, has broken my will to continue. Well debated, my friend. lol @ these posts all on just this page NO YOU SAID THIS NO YOU NO I SAID THIS YOU SAID THIS NU UH I SAID THIS YOU SAID THAT you guys are great at this.
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Apr 15, 2015 05:32
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