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Scyther posted:So, it's literally just one night werewolf, except the players do their special thing clockwise in seating order instead of by role order? I'd love to find out for myself but the rules pdf is hosted on dropbox and for some reason will take a minimum of 8 minutes to download. The rules only mention five different roles, and you're required to take a token to show who you're claiming to be when Night ends (they were optional in ONUW). Otherwise, yeah, looks like the same thing.
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Apr 13, 2015 03:48
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Usually kickstarters are cheaper than retail, and IB&Cs never are and are sometimes more expensive than retail considering online prices and other sales.
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Apr 13, 2015 04:34
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Another thing against IB&G is that their components are really cheap. The paint on the Avalon tokens come off really, really easily. Like tokens that generally aren't even handled that often. Also the fact that the latest Resistance expansion was basically Avalon 1.5, with Avalon basically just being The Resistance 1.5. Apparently there will be a new Avalon expansion too (that they said they weren't going to make but actually are not)? I don't know, it's a pretty lovely company with pretty lovely people behind it that unfortunately publish (not design, I don't think?) pretty great games.
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Apr 13, 2015 04:34
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burger time posted:Usually kickstarters are cheaper than retail, and IB&Cs never are and are sometimes more expensive than retail considering online prices and other sales. In my experience, Kickstarter projects are almost never cheaper than online prices, at least for the baseline product. What you're normally getting that might make it a better buy are promos, exclusives and/or additional free content that will be sold separately at retail. IB&C has certainly offered those in the past and appears to be offering them on One Night Resistance. YMMV what those are worth to you.
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Apr 13, 2015 13:47
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Wizard's Academy is 92% funded with about 4 days to go; I've backed it, because even though I'm not a fan of tough co-ops, I still think it's a great game with some drat nice sculpts for the miniatures.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:11
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I'd back the resistance thing if they would add on the loving Avalon promos. gently caress promos, gently caress the cards that don't look like king arfur, gently caress everyone *grabs ball and runs home sobbing*
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Apr 13, 2015 15:20
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InShaneee posted:Some people get really mad about Kickstarter being used for preorders. If I pre-order a thing, I at least want to get that thing at the same time as I could if I had just waited for retail. Seeing the game sitting on the shelf in your local store for cheaper than you paid for it while you wait for yours to show up is lovely treatment. If you back an IB&C kickstarter and end up in that situation, you can't say you weren't warned.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:57
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Jimbozig posted:If I pre-order a thing, I at least want to get that thing at the same time as I could if I had just waited for retail. Seeing the game sitting on the shelf in your local store for cheaper than you paid for it while you wait for yours to show up is lovely treatment. If you back an IB&C kickstarter and end up in that situation, you can't say you weren't warned. Right. But it's not exactly a preorder. It's a preorder that wouldn't even exist (at least for smaller companies) without the seed money. I personally treat it as a quasi-investment/preorder where you get none of the benefits those usually convey aside from the product existing. e: except this company's been in major retailers like target so gently caress 'em
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Apr 13, 2015 16:25
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Chill la Chill posted:Right. But it's not exactly a preorder. It's a preorder that wouldn't even exist (at least for smaller companies) without the seed money. And in this case, I would also expect to receive mine at or before the time it appears on store shelves.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:26
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I think I'm really more bothered by the way IB&C treat it, by passing it off as a whole "no big deal, chill out" kinda thing. A number of Kickstarters I've backed, like 13 True Ways and probably some other stuff, have withheld sending fulfillment to backers because they needed the initial inventory for Gencon or some other big con that would majorly affect their business, but they were really transparent and open and apologetic about the whole thing. But at least they showed that it was sort of unfair, but that it was completely integral to the health of the business that they needed to get that sort of PR out there. To contrast, IB&C gives exactly zero fucks. Hell, a good company would have done the cool thing and sent replacement cards to the backers with hosed up card backs instead of saying "Welp you know what you were getting into. First edition, suckaaaas."
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Apr 13, 2015 16:32
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This https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackoak/knot-dice-celtic-knot-games-puzzles-and-art might be of interest to some folks. It looks pretty cool to me, albeit perhaps a little on the expensive side.
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Apr 13, 2015 17:20
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Just launched... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/toystorian/hard-days-knight-a-strategic-card-dice-game 
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Apr 13, 2015 17:26
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Chill la Chill posted:e: except this company's been in major retailers like target so gently caress 'em Could you elaborate? I'm curious about the perceived correlation between KS and products being in big box stores?
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Apr 13, 2015 17:44
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Toystorian posted:Just launched... This is a pretty low effort shill and your entire post history is just talking about your Kickstarters. Merauder posted:Could you elaborate? I'm curious about the perceived correlation between KS and products being in big box stores? KS is presumably meant for projects that need that initial boost to get started, like raising the initial capital to produce stuff. If you already have a history of getting into big box retailers like Target and Walmart, you are probably way past that point and thus are just using Kickstarter for publicity and preorders. It goes against the spirit of the system, but KS still gets their cut so they don't really give two shits.
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Apr 13, 2015 17:56
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[quote="GrandpaPants" post="443997226"] This is a pretty low effort shill and your entire post history is just talking about your Kickstarters. Right cause I don't want to use my other account to shill.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:04
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Toystorian posted:Just launched... I love that you say "modern pop culture references crossed with classic fantastical quests" almost immediately after an image referencing Charlie's Angels, Saturday Night Fever, and the Village People. Do you know what decade this is? Oh, and scrolling down you also reference such pieces of modern pop culture as Steven Tyler, David Hasslehoff, and...Meat Loaf? It's hard to tell because some of these references are so forced I can't even come up with a good analogy to describe how tortured they are. How the hell do you get from "Lady Gaga" to "Lady Elle Gant"? fake edit: Oh jesus christ I just got the "Maggie Mayhem" reference/non-joke. gently caress you. Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 18:05
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Merauder posted:Could you elaborate? I'm curious about the perceived correlation between KS and products being in big box stores? Kickstarter is meant to be used to make products that could not be made without advance funding. If IB&C can get their product into major high street retailers then that product is obviously going to sell because major high street retailers don't buy niche products that don't sell. As such, they should not be using Kickstarter any more.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:10
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404: Law Not Found has started shipping and arriving, but the latest update has this gem in itquote:You'll notice that Canada, Australia and Asia are absent from that list, we have a specific issue affecting backers in those countries. In theory you were supposed to get your games more quickly because we sent them to a distribution center in the US which them forwarded them to you - China -> US -> Canada sounds like it should be faster than China -> UK -> Canada because of the shorter distances involved. So yeah, well done Amazon
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Apr 13, 2015 18:10
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quote:Just launched...  Hey cool, I think I had the same "How to Draw Celebrity Caricatures" book when I was a kid (in 1984). quote:How the hell do you get from "Lady Gaga" to "Lady Elle Gant"? Could be worse. There's a character in Krosmaster Arena called "Ally McZeal". I have a reasonably high tolerance for embarrassing game bits (we're not into "cool settings" or something), but in this case I just hid her at the bottom of a drawer before anyone could see. jmzero fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 18:11
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[e] Eh nevermind. This was a dumb comment for a dumb KS.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:16
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Jedit posted:Kickstarter is meant to be used This is the actual thing, though. Kickstarter is a commercial enterprise. It's a crowdfunding website that lets anyone petition everyone for money, in exchange for promises. That's all. It's been pitched (and remains) as a wonderful way for small businesses to launch products that they can't get traditional funding for, and that's great. But I find it really crazy how many people seem to think that because this is one thing that Kickstarter enables, it must be the only thing, or else some kind of purity of concept is being soiled. The customers have spoken, and they have made it abundantly clear, to the tune of many many millions of dollars, that they also want kickstarters from established companies. Given the overhead, established companies could probably just get a business loan for less transaction costs than by running a kickstarter. They're kickstarting anyway, because KS is giving them additional benefits: publicity, pre-orders, pre-design customer feedback, whatever. It doesn't matter what the benefit is, it's there, and whining about it accomplishes nothing. I'm sorry for picking on you in particular, it's obviously an opinion a lot of folks hold, including here on SA, but it's a wrong opinion. Amazon has decided that Kickstarter is legitimately used by large and established companies too, and it belongs to them, and they're being quite successful doing this, and customers are engaging and paying money and it's all working. There's plenty to criticize outfits like IB&C (for being assholes and loving over their kickstarter backers) - the fact they're "established" is irrelevant.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:30
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It's a pretty sweet vector for really anti-consumer practices, if you think about it. Establish a bunch of good will for the brand with independent underdog products and then sell overdog products in a market with less consumer advantages than traditional markets
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Apr 13, 2015 18:33
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Leperflesh posted:This is the actual thing, though. I pretty much agree with all of this. I think it's completely awesome that crowd-funding systems like KS have taken off and do allow for little guys to get out in the market, not only for games but for any category you can imagine. But the masses are going to define what something is or isn't, and it's pretty clear that KS is more than independent projects to the masses. Take eBay for example; it started as a similar platform for Joe Average to empty his closet of unneeded stuff, but over time evolved into a full-fledged avenue for companies to conduct business. Established companies have eBay stores, just like established companies have and will continue to utilize KS for whatever reasons they may have.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:37
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Toystorian posted:Right cause I don't want to use my other account to shill. Your product sucks and you don't know how to quote people correctly and you don't want to associate your "real" account with your product. gently caress off. I also think that Kickstarter is "abused" but you know what? This is apparently what people want and I don't want to take the freedom to be a dumb idiot away from others. Lord knows I've learned a lot from being stupid.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:37
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jmzero posted:
Thanks for the idea. Ally McZeal now added as a stretch goal.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:38
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fozzy fosbourne posted:It's a pretty sweet vector for really anti-consumer practices, if you think about it. Establish a bunch of good will for the brand with independent underdog products and then sell overdog products in a market with less consumer advantages than traditional markets Right. Between this and that if I wanted to be investing into an established enterprise, I'd do so in the form of stocks with a possibility of better returns so I personally don't support kickstarters in that fashion. Customers are of course free to purchase things not in their best interests as star citizen, doobie, and various other kickstarters have shown. We're all p stupid and bounded rationality etc. etc. The difference with ebay is that they do have some protection services for the consumer. Kickstarter has none of that besides some vague clauses about entities trying their best to fulfill pledges or whatever, but I'm not a lawyer. E: Note that for the purposes of schadenfreude comedy I enjoy car crash kickstarters immensely, as evidenced by my posts in the GBS thread. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 18:40
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Chill la Chill posted:The difference with ebay is that they do have some protection services for the consumer. Kickstarter has none of that besides some vague clauses about entities trying their best to fulfill pledges or whatever, but I'm not a lawyer. Yeah for sure, the whole system is still very new though. I'd wager that within the next few years KS get's a lot more formal on this front, and others.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:43
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Leperflesh posted:This is the actual thing, though. On top of this, mid-level companies aren't exactly rolling around in cash on hand here. Just because you can sell in a big store doesn't mean you've actually got money on hand to start these projects. For the companies that use KS, if they're not entirely sure on the demand for a product, KS is a relatively safe way of checking interest, possible price points, etc without having to actually make a product or pay someone to do a lot of market research. Established doesn't mean successful in a business context. Having a few good products doesn't mean your business is doing well, it usually means you can stay afloat long enough to pay off loans while still paying monthly operating costs.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:48
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Absolutley, but I didn't go into that because I don't actually know where IB&C sits on that spectrum. An outfit like Reaper can be a very well-established company that still cannot raise multiple millions of dollars to fund the startup costs for a new technology via traditional funding sources.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:56
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Leperflesh posted:Absolutley, but I didn't go into that because I don't actually know where IB&C sits on that spectrum. I'm willing to accept myself wrong if they re-write the textbooks in a few years and consider this a legitimate alternate to an IPO, loans, etc. which I can see. However, when I write about my personal choices, I'd rather take my chance with cold hard cash and an IPO than possibly a free t-shirt or some extra models with a kickstarter. It's my preference, though I know you were talking about SA users in general.
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Apr 13, 2015 19:00
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Even more broadly, the gaming community. I agree in terms of buyer beware, of course! There are a lot of kickstarters I've passed up because the game is definitely getting made and I want to wait and see what the actual retail product is like before I decide whether to buy it or not. That's fine. It's part of the risk any company takes by using kickstarter for preorders; some customers will be so sure the product is going to happen that they don't preorder, and that limits the money the KS will take in. OK. Crowdfunding is crowdfunding. I can't think of any practical way to limit who is allowed to crowdfund (once you're allowing commercial crowdfunding at all, of course) or who is allowed to pledge, and limits on the products you're allowed to crowdfund are already in place and probably shouldn't be narrower. So it is what it is. 
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Apr 13, 2015 19:04
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I'm done with IB&C after how loving horribly the cards in the Resistance expansion were printed -- then Travis said "Oh no you guys are just being really picky, this is COMPLETELY within norms" E: Out of curiosity does anyone know if the cards are still horribly misprinted in copies now?
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Apr 13, 2015 19:44
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One of the issues I have with Kickstarter is that I often feel that backers aren't being rewarded, but that I'm being punished for not backing. To use Wizard's Academy as an example, there are two additional characters you can purchase for about $15 each (the base game being $73). So if I want "the full Wizard's Academy experience" then I need to pay an extra 30% upfront without having the opportunity to see or play the game - a purchase that will never be possible to make in the future. I much prefer Kickstarters where the higher tiers are merch (hat, shirt, bauble unrelated to the actual playing of the game). Or I'd gladly pay $40 after release when I can evaluate if I even like the game to get the same stuff that backers were able to opt-in to for cheaper. I don't think they're doing anything wrong, I just use them as an example since it's a game I'm actually interested in that I may end up not purchasing at all because I'm hesitant to drop $100 blind but I also don't want to get the game, like it, and then feel like I'm missing out. Sorry if this is well-worn territory here, but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:03
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Leperflesh posted:This is the actual thing, though. There's a certain (false) zero-sum thinking in play as well, where people believe that the 'underserving' KS campaigns from established companies somehow deprive 'real' campaigns of money. But KS campaigns aren't fungible -- someone who pledged to, say, the Penny Arcade KS (to pick one of the early controversial ones) wasn't just having those dollars in reserve for the first interesting KS they saw. If they pledged $50 to PA that doesn't mean Struggling Webcomic KS was going to get those $50 and now isn't -- that PA pledger was probably not going to pledge to Struggling Webcomic at all. By growing the viability and visibility of the platform, all successful high-profile KS campaigns are good for the KS community, by increasing the userbase.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:09
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Once upon a time, I dropped sixty bucks on the KAMB kickstarter for all of the extra print goodies and poo poo. Mostly because Doc Bubonic's summer games were a howl to watch unfold. These days? No, gently caress it, and double-gently caress it if any of those things will never be available at retail. Stretch goals are one thing, but when they start parceling out 'optional' parts (with the exception of things like warham-alikes, because those are 100% mix-and-match) and leaning on the last chance to see button, I bail. I think add-on T-shirts, knives, flash drives and the like are dangerously stupid, thanks to the price of fulfillment on the drat things.
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Apr 13, 2015 20:18
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Bieeardo posted:I think add-on T-shirts, knives, flash drives and the like are dangerously stupid, thanks to the price of fulfillment on the drat things. The more I think about it, the more I want to just say gently caress all add ons and just make tiers nerd cred bullshit (help us design something, we run a game for you over Skype, etc).
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Apr 13, 2015 20:29
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quote:By growing the viability and visibility of the platform, all successful high-profile KS campaigns are good for the KS community, by increasing the userbase. I think there is still some element of "competition for attention" whereby large projects from established companies can squeeze out small ones. There was a time when you got a certain amount of attention just for "running a Kickstarter" (ie. there was a reasonable number of people who just looked at whatever projects were new or whatever, because there wasn't that many). Any remaining "free attention" is now divided among a lot of products, many of which are pretty shiny. The bar has really been raised in terms of how much content and finish people expect on day zero; the road for a lone person with an idea and no budget is a lot harder than it would have been a couple years ago. When there's so many projects that can afford all their art and a video (and have a history of successful games releases), that certainly puts extra pressure on a new independent (eg. a guy like Broken Loose with little budget, no history, and a really out-there game). I don't think anyone is really to blame or something - as someone said above, it just kind of is what it is. We've seen the same change in the past in, for example, the iOS App Store. Just happens. That said, perhaps Kickstarter could do some curating with the specific goal of helping smaller projects - an "indie showcase" or something?
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Apr 13, 2015 20:45
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Toystorian posted:Thanks for the idea. Ally McZeal now added as a stretch goal. You think that declaring your intent to plagiarise someone else's content is going to help you?
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Apr 13, 2015 23:13
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Jedit posted:You think that declaring your intent to plagiarise someone else's content is going to help you? I thought it was a joke. 
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Apr 13, 2015 23:31
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Toystorian posted:Just launched... I'm more disappointed than I should be that this isn't just a board game based on Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLMFybclOJM
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Apr 13, 2015 23:52
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