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VitalSigns posted:My neighbors won't accept my generous offer for their house, so I guess I have no choice but to murder them. God, they are just so unreasonable. Therefore I'll shoot rockets at them until they give me their house. Great analogy, chief.
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Apr 17, 2015 14:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:Therefore I'll shoot rockets at them until they give me It is.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:01
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SedanChair posted:It is. It ain't your house when you have no deed, no title, and its in a foreign nation. Its just coveting your neighbor's belongings, something which is a mitzvot to cause to cease.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:It ain't your house when you have no deed, no title, and its in a foreign nation. Its just coveting your neighbor's belongings, something which is a mitzvot to cause to cease. An Israeli settler holding forth on covetousness would be a sight.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:08
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DarkCrawler posted:So you see all of the folllowing things being feasible: The U.S. "abandoning the conflict" isn't anything resembling a probable outcome.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:09
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hakimashou posted:The U.S. "abandoning the conflict" isn't anything resembling a probable outcome. Nothing last forever. Young generations of Americans, including Jews, give less of a poo poo about Israel. It seems that the whole thing is already getting drawn to the gaping maw of partisan divide that is modern US politics. It might take a long time, but it will happen. Meanwhile Palestinians are staying right where they are and having more babies.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:40
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DarkCrawler posted:So you see all of the folllowing things being feasible: Well A is pretty feasible when you compare it to the cost of waging the war. $225 billion USD is expensive, sure, and that doesn't even take into consideration the more expensive plots that have appreciable inherent value, nor the cost of resettling 4.5 million people. That being said, the US is already sending over billions in foreign aid, and it is very motivated to end the conflict. The cost of the Iraq War was upwards of $1.7 trillion USD - I'd say that ending the I/P conflict for less than 1/7th that price, a positive image for the US and Israel, and no further bloodshed is a pretty good price. B doesn't seem necessary at all - to the extent that a Palestinian national identity exists it would doubtless remain. Palestinians would still consider themselves to be Palestinian. But from the comfort of a real home that isn't the frontline of a battleground between extremists. C is much the same issue, but again it's largely resolved by identifying what is better for them and their kids. Sure they'll miss elements of living in the West Bank or Gaza, but they won't miss living in a bombed out hovel, cut off from the rest of the world, constantly in fear of attack. D is addressed by the private/public aspect. For the vast majority of people who don't have any appreciable amount of land or buildings, and make less than $2,000 per year, $50,000 would be a far more than they could ever expect on the open market. Indeed it's 10 times the value that Palestinian authorities have offered their own people in similar sorts of deals. But if that isn't sufficient, then the owners could sell at the fair market price - or indeed not sell at all. The point is defusing the situation by giving the average person an option to get out of the situation. E is certainly a sticking point, but I'd say that there's plenty of governments throughout the world who would be willing to try tackling the issue in order to bring a bunch of wealthy middle-class people into their communities. Throw in international community support and aid programs, and I'm sure that places could be found. And finally F, aka your competing probable outcome, doesn't seem like a particularly good option for actual Palestinians, no? You might be able to wait out the decades that will be required for the US to abandon the issue and allow Israel to be dismantled, but I don't think that the average person living there can. The Palestinian community has been riding on the momentum of Israeli investment and international donations for quite a while now, and it's clear that they can't do that forever. The economy is falling apart, the infrastructure is degrading, and the culture is pulling at the seams. Even in the thoroughly unlikely event that world politics conspire to impose a one or two state solution on a protesting Israel, I don't think that Palestinians can wait that long. Kajeesus posted:I'm sure that if the international community actually decided to pour funds into Palestinians (and the relocation thereof is a natural consequence, I guess?), they'd be better off, yes. I mean, if you could promote that kind of unity and goodwill towards Palestinians, that's really the only thing that could be done, yeah? It's not like it's the duty of the international community to prevent the war crimes that are currently being perpetrated against Palestinians. All we can do for them is commit more war crimes but with better intent, I swear. It seems to me that preventing war crimes would be precisely what ending the I/P conflict through liberal application of money and finding homes for everyone would be all about. That being said, while I do think that the issue will eventually be resolved in a fashion resembling this, I don't think that there will be the political will to do it until the situation has degraded further. The Palestinian leaders and their international supporters have doubled-down on warfare through any means, while the Israeli government and people doesn't see a peaceful resolution as particularly viable or necessary. Neither side is particularly interested in the betterment of the average Palestinian, and both see their plight as merely the cost of victory. Until that changes, the status quo will continue and the scales will continue to tip further and further in favor of the Israelis. Kaal fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 16:12
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Why don't we pay the Israelis to leave. There are fewer of them so it's cheaper, and if they refuse then whatever we do to them is their own fault. Oh wait, that would be a horrific war crime!
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Apr 17, 2015 16:21
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VitalSigns posted:Why don't we pay the Israelis to leave. There are fewer of them so it's cheaper, and if they refuse then whatever we do to them is their own fault. There are twice as many Israelis as there are people living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and they are far wealthier and have far more significant investment so it would cost much more. Certainly far more than Palestine and the Arab nations would ever be able to afford. I understand that a lot of folks in this thread basically aren't going to feel contented with anything less than a military victory by Hamas, but surely the progressive side of you must be balking at such an immediate resistance to a peaceful solution.
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Apr 17, 2015 16:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:It ain't your house when you have no deed, no title, and its in a foreign nation. I'm glad you agree with us that Israel should vacate the West Bank settlements immediately.
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Apr 17, 2015 16:54
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Kaal posted:There are twice as many Israelis as there are people living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and they are far wealthier and have far more significant investment so it would cost much more. Certainly far more than Palestine and the Arab nations would ever be able to afford. I understand that a lot of folks in this thread basically aren't going to feel contented with anything less than a military victory by Hamas, but surely the progressive side of you must be balking at such an immediate resistance to a peaceful solution. There are roughly 6 million Jewish Israelis. Paying each of them $250,000 (a sum far greater than your modest proposal for Palestinians!) to immediately relocate to, say, Ukraine (a situation roughly similar to what you propose - sending millions of people to countries they have no connection to which are enmeshed in their own wars) would cost $1.5 trillion. This is not outside the realm of possibility for Saudi Arabia, which has a GDP close to $1 trillion. You would correctly note that there are millions of Israelis who do not particularly want to accept a token payout that is racist by its very nature to insultingly bribe them to leave their homes and cities behind and become refugees in random neighboring states. Amazingly, Palestinians feel much the same. Really, though, the best way to describe how screwed up this plan is is that it's precisely the "plan" put forth by Moshe Feiglin, possibly the most right-wing politician in Israel and the same person who memorably advocated genocide as a reasonable final solution against Hamas. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 17:01
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DarkCrawler posted:Nothing last forever. Young generations of Americans, including Jews, give less of a poo poo about Israel. It seems that the whole thing is already getting drawn to the gaping maw of partisan divide that is modern US politics. It might take a long time, but it will happen. We give less of a poo poo about Israel, but unfortunately we give even less of a poo poo about Palestine. It's not enough to just be neutral or not give a poo poo, since the status quo is so hilariously imbalanced already. And unfortunately, the trends among the American public seem to be going in Israel's favor, rather than against it like you'd expect. 
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Apr 17, 2015 17:01
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Lum_ posted:There are roughly 6 million Jewish Israelis. Paying each of them $250,000 (a sum far greater than your modest proposal for Palestinians!) to immediately relocate to, say, Ukraine (a situation roughly similar to what you propose - sending millions of people to countries they have no connection to which are enmeshed in their own wars) would cost $1.5 trillion. This is not outside the realm of possibility for Saudi Arabia, which has a GDP close to $1 trillion. Well for one thing, the average income in the West Bank or Gaza is maybe $2,000 (a soft number based on GDP/population, since the figures are very vague, there's a significant underground economy, there's a distorting effect caused by the large number of Palestinian youth, and Gaza's economy is much weaker than the West Bank), whereas the average Israeli income is around $35,000-$50,000 depending on how you count it. So if you were to apply the same sort of economic pressures as in Palestine (25 times the average annual income), we'd be talking about something like $1.1 million per person. That comes out to more like $6.6 trillion. Now consider that Israel has a particularly hot real estate market, where the average value of a home and property in Israel is $500,000. In the heavily populated areas, like Tel Aviv, the average price of a home can be upwards of $800,000. Compare that to $5,000 for an average sq mile in the West Bank (which itself is far more than many Palestinians have). So if we're talking about 10 times the value of a property, then the cost would increase again to perhaps $5 million USD per person, or $30 trillion USD. And then factor in that there's another two million Israelis who are not Jewish, but still would merit a buyout option, and that price might increase to perhaps $40 trillion USD, or about half the world GDP. That's a pretty prohibitive cost, but I don't see any reason not to try putting the money together. If I were offered 25 times my annual income / 10 times the value of my house to sell and and move, it'd be a pretty compelling offer. Frankly though, I'd say that if the object here is the betterment of the Palestinian people - rather than painting a map - then putting that $40 trillion USD towards Palestinians would probably be the better solution. Palestinians need money, and they have land; Israelis have money, and need land. Trade it and be done with it. Certainly that's how market forces are going to work whenever peace is eventually attained. And when the alternative is an unwinnable war ... Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 17:22
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Any theories as to the reasons / correlations?
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Apr 17, 2015 18:42
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Xander77 posted:Any theories as to the reasons / correlations? During the Iraq war america realized the pain of having to deal with a whole pile of loving hajis. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2015 18:47
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Xander77 posted:Any theories as to the reasons / correlations? Republicans went lockstep in favor of the Israelis over the Palestinians. Democrats haven't moved as much in the opposite direction. When people talk about Israel/Palestine becoming a partisan issue in the US to an extent it's been moving that direction already, Neytanyahu just accelerated the trend.
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Apr 17, 2015 19:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:It ain't your house when you have no deed, no title, and its in a foreign nation. Its just coveting your neighbor's belongings, something which is a mitzvot to cause to cease. mitzvot is a plural word you loving heeabroo "mitzvah"
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Apr 17, 2015 20:19
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Xander77 posted:Any theories as to the reasons / correlations? It's hard to draw specific correlations for every single bump and dip, since there are so many different issues at play here. However, there's a few really distinct trends that have clearly impacted the numbers in the past couple of decades:
 
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Apr 17, 2015 20:41
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You can see pretty clearly the impact of the Second Intifada there.
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Apr 17, 2015 23:18
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That's some pretty shiity polling right there, those bounces at the end in the R side are almost certainly not real.
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Apr 17, 2015 23:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:It ain't your house when you have no deed, no title, and its in a foreign nation. Its just coveting your neighbor's belongings, something which is a mitzvot to cause to cease. Woah, when did MIGF see the light? Salam Aaikum brother 
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Apr 18, 2015 00:13
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Isn't the payout solution just what the United States did to the Native Americans? "Here's some money, go live somewhere else." That worked out so well!
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Apr 18, 2015 01:08
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I have a solution: resettle all Palestinians in Detroit.
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Apr 18, 2015 01:14
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*drunk of Friday night wine* What if Israel admits that the founders were wrong to take the land from the British instead of partnering with the local people, '48 was hosed up, it's current policies are a continuation of these mistakes and that they must cease. Like how much would a genuine apology mean? That, and demilitarize and allocate the the peace dividend to a permanent fund for investment in the Palestinian areas. Strong anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action. One state solution
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Apr 18, 2015 02:20
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fool_of_sound posted:I have a solution: resettle all Palestinians in Detroit. Dearborn already has the largest Mosque in North America.
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Apr 18, 2015 04:40
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Kaal posted:I understand that a lot of folks in this thread basically aren't going to feel contented with anything less than a military victory by Hamas, but surely the progressive side of you must be balking at such an immediate resistance to a peaceful solution. Actually I think the majority of the pro-palestinian people in this thread want a nonviolent solution to the problem. Don't put words in people's mouths. Kaal posted:Israelis aren't going to be interested in leasing magical apartments in the first place. That'd be a terrible idea. Palestinians should just sell the land in a mix of private and public land deals, and then resettle in Egypt or Lebanon. Israel could pay way above the market rate and it'd still be cheaper than continuing an endless war - heck the US would probably be happy to provide plenty of the money itself in the form of no-interest loans, and it'd be a lot easier to figure out resettlement issues with the surrounding nations when the candidates aren't penniless refugees. Yeah, none of that is ever going to happen. What about the palestinians who lease their property from absentee landlords? How would they even be able to sell in the first place? How is any of this feasible? Ultramega fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 05:16
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420 Gank Mid posted:Woah, when did MIGF see the light? Israel is a nation with rule of law. Palestine has rule by law. Rule of law is far more legitimate than rule by law. Nobody wants to live next to poor individuals and deal with the negative affects of concentrated poverty, not in America, not in Israel. Far better to be able to purchase the land and redevelop it; settlements are merely Israel's version of America's gentrification.
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Apr 18, 2015 05:32
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Kaal posted:There are twice as many Israelis as there are people living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and they are far wealthier and have far more significant investment so it would cost much more. Certainly far more than Palestine and the Arab nations would ever be able to afford. I understand that a lot of folks in this thread basically aren't going to feel contented with anything less than a military victory by Hamas, but surely the progressive side of you must be balking at such an immediate resistance to a peaceful solution. How is it a peaceful solution if you're prepared to use force to compel people who don't want to sell their homes? You might as well call the loving Trail of Tears a peaceful solution at that point. "Hey we offered 'em money and they didn't want to go, whatever happens now is their own stubborn fault"
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Apr 18, 2015 08:57
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Yeah why do People have such an impossible brigth view of human nature in this thread? People are going to want some revenge when this is over. Some kind of symbolic blood sacrifice will have to be made to appease palestinians and to show them that not only have they won, they are also safe. Trail of tearsing the illegal Israeli occupiers is the bare minimum that will have be done to create any kind of lasting Peace. That`s what had to happen to East-European Germans living outside of Germany after 1945.
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Apr 18, 2015 09:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nobody wants to live next to poor individuals and deal with the negative affects of concentrated poverty, not in America, not in Israel. Far better to be able to purchase the land and redevelop it; settlements are merely Israel's version of America's gentrification. You're just A-Good-Post'ing yourself at this point. Though I also disagree with gentrification it is a little harsh to compare it to violent pograms.
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Apr 18, 2015 09:27
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VitalSigns posted:How is it a peaceful solution if you're prepared to use force to compel people who don't want to sell their homes? Again just to remind everyone, Israelis have never offered money and never will without being forced to do it. And when were at the point when the Israelis are forced to do something, it won't be offering money to Palestinians for their land and houses, but a two-or-one state solution. By then there will be a lot more Palestinians too, and the rest of the world will be a lot more sick of Israel's poo poo so they won't be able to escape their sins by going "How about we just pay them to leave? With money we don't have, so can you help us international community?" Because we all know its impossible for a country just to shell out its annual GDP for some resettlement program, right? Like five times their annual govt. budget. I mean that where this ends, US isn't going to shell it out, EU isn't going to shell it out, and the Arab countries won't spend a penny to help out Israel. Nobody else gives a poo poo or is a party in the negotiations. The world will tell Israel to get out of West Bank or give Palestinians full citizenship and rights and end to Jewish State. That's what there is left for this conflict to end. Palestinians are all too neatly contained for there to be any more variables. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 09:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel is a White nation. Palestine is a nation of towel-headed sandniggers. Rule by White people is far more legitimate than rule by untermenschen. Thanks for telling us what you really think.
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Apr 18, 2015 11:17
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Oh wow. Yeah, there's a reason I have that prick blocked.
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Apr 18, 2015 12:32
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Ultramega posted:Oh wow. Yeah, there's a reason I have that prick blocked. rofl Hey, MIGF, how do feel about my proposal to reinvigorate American industry by funding the relocation of Palestinians to Detroit?
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Apr 18, 2015 15:35
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Cat Mattress posted:Thanks for telling us what you really think. I did have to double check. Baudolino posted:Yeah why do People have such an impossible brigth view of human nature in this thread? People are going to want some revenge when this is over. Some kind of symbolic blood sacrifice will have to be made to appease palestinians and to show them that not only have they won, they are also safe. What you're saying sounds like what people said about black South Africans before apartheid ended. They didn't turn out to be all that bloodthirsty.
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Apr 18, 2015 15:42
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fool_of_sound posted:rofl Relocate them to Chicago instead, then he might have a comment!
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Apr 18, 2015 15:55
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SedanChair posted:What you're saying sounds like what people said about black South Africans before apartheid ended. They didn't turn out to be all that bloodthirsty. There are a lot of parallels, all the way up to "well those other African regimes are killing way more people than we are, why aren't we talking about that 100% of the time and apartheid 0% the time huh? I'll tell you why, because anti-apartheid is just code for white genocide!"
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Apr 18, 2015 15:58
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SedanChair posted:What you're saying sounds like what people said about black South Africans before apartheid ended. They didn't turn out to be all that bloodthirsty. Looks like someone hasn't heard about the WHITE GENOCIDE
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Apr 18, 2015 19:06
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fool_of_sound posted:rofl How about Palestinians do like other successful migrant populations and form their own diaspora instutions to finance their emigrations and assimilations? Your proposal? That's another unfunded handout, who's gonna pay for it? My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 21:22
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VitalSigns posted:How is it a peaceful solution if you're prepared to use force to compel people who don't want to sell their homes? The only person suggesting that is you. I mean frankly the overwrought reactions to an actual peaceful resolution to the conflict that doesn't involve marching the UN Peace Army / 40th Intifada Militia into Tel Aviv and imposing a military resolution on Israel is a pretty good example of why the diplomatic space isn't suited for negotiations, and why Palestinians will simply have to continue suffering for another generation or two until the politics change. If western progressives with a nominal commitment to peace and objectivity can't even consider a peaceful resolution that involves hundreds of billions of dollars in Israeli concessions and the foundation of an actual future for the Palestinian people, then there's little chance that the Hamas militia leaders will soon be capable of negotiating in a way that Israelis would ever accept. Kaal fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 21:33
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