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You can ARO with Smoke -- it's called a "Special Dodge" -- and it's what you always do with Chain Rifle Myrmidons.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:00
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admanb posted:You can ARO with Smoke -- it's called a "Special Dodge" -- and it's what you always do with Chain Rifle Myrmidons. The question here is whether that counts as a BS attack. Say a fireteam with 4 dudes runs into a dude with a Spitfire that fires 2 bursts at each visible model. The two models he can see are Ajax and a Chain Rifle Myrm. Can I have the Myrm smoke and Ajax shoot back, since fireteams need to declare the same ARO? Or is that impossible and thus I need to either have both dodge (with the Myrm smoking) or have both shoot back, which means the Myrm can either take 2 chain rifle shots (and suffer a normal roll) or fire back with 2 pistol bursts?
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Apr 16, 2015 23:03
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Ah. Gotcha. Yeah they would both have to dodge.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:08
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MJ12 posted:So, a tactics question. When should you use pistols in tactical situations? Their damage is pretty sad but an ARO is an ARO...
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Apr 16, 2015 23:28
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Gremades are a BS attack that rolls against PH. If the thrown smoke obscures the LoF of a model shooting, it becomes a special dodge face to face roll for the model that threw the smoke (and nobody else even if the smoke stops the LoF to them), but it isn't actually a dodge. This also means that if a model sees your entire link of Myrmidons and declares that he shoots at someone other than the link leader that if the link leader throws smoke the rest of the team stands around with their thumb up their rear end and the ARO is a normal roll. If the fire team declared a dodge then it would be a FtF roll. If two myrmidons in a link both see a model, one can ARO to throw smoke(2x smoke grenades due to +1 B in the fire team) and the other can ARO to shoot their gun. Both are BS attacks.
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Apr 17, 2015 01:49
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Smoke grenades are always burst 1, the book specifically points out that only BS attacks get the burst, attacks rolled with physical do not. (Grenades are rolled with ph so yeah)
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Apr 17, 2015 03:12
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Where does it point that out? Grenades are BS throwing weapons. They are BS weapons that use PH. The +1 burst for a fire team applies to short skill/ARO BS attacks. So 2x grenades if you throw normally. 1x grenades if you speculative fire. Same as a grenade launcher. Edit: It also applies to technical weapons. So fire teams are B2 on flash pulses, and B3 on Forward Observation, even though they roll on WP. Cyclomatic fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 03:26
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It also applies to Drop Bears.Hipster Occultist posted:Smoke grenades are always burst 1, the book specifically points out that only BS attacks get the burst, attacks rolled with physical do not. (Grenades are rolled with ph so yeah) Cite your motherfucking sources.
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Apr 17, 2015 04:03
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Cyclomatic posted:Where does it point that out? I could have sworn I read something saying that although grenades are technically BS attacks, because they use Phys they don't actually get BS bonuses. I can't find anything that collaborates that though, and the forums seem to agree with you so I guess I misread something while I was dog tired? 
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Apr 17, 2015 04:22
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Yea, at first it seems counter-intuative, but then it actually comes out the other side and makes a lot of sense because basically the vast majority of stuff in the game is working off the same system.
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Apr 17, 2015 05:02
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osirisisdead posted:It also applies to Drop Bears. Mommy and Daddy please dont fight
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Apr 17, 2015 15:59
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Shut up you little bitch. I'll pop you right in the mouth.
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Apr 17, 2015 18:11
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So I won 4-2 tonight at an Annihilation mission, 300 pts, my Corregidor against the Morat Aggression Force. Pretty straightforward shooting game that came down to dice rolls, really. Morats aren't tricky but they definitely pack a punch. His 2 loving Sogarats were a terror to me, ARM 9 in cover, and recovered twice by automedikits! And unfortunately my AD hacker dropped in and while successful in basilisking one, was not able to capitalise on it. I need to think about some bandits - can they take panzerfausts? Hmmmm . . .
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Apr 18, 2015 00:41
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Smoke grenades are not a BS attack though - they are a special dodge.quote:Smoke and Speculative Fire Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack. From the FAQ: quote:WITH 3RD ED RULES, CAN THE PLAYERS APPLY THE BURST BONUS PROVIDED BY THE FIRETEAMS TO ANY KIND OF ATTACKS? No, in 3rd Edition, players can only apply the Burst Bonus to Ballistic Attacks (Short Skill/ ARO). So you get + burst on anything that would be a BS attack. A normal grenade is a BS throwing attack, and quote:» Throwing Weapon. This weapon can make BS Attacks, but uses the PH Attribute in place of BS. When using this weapon, consider all rules and MODs that would affect the trooper’s BS as affecting his PH Attribute instead. So once again, Smoke is a Special Dodge, not a BS attack, and does not benefit from +1 burst. Grenades get +1 burst, and it works fine. Forward Observer has the "BS Attack" tag so it gets +1 burst from link for B3. Drop Bears are an attack, not a BS attack, so they would not benefit, even though they are a "Throwing weapon", it just means use PH instead of BS here, not that its use is a BS attack. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 05:11
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Cyclomatic posted:I think there is a guy on the main forums called Chokonit that has an entire business of splitting up boxes and selling the minis individually and has a long track record of being legit. Can someone maybe help me get in contact? Not having search and messages is kind of hard.
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Apr 18, 2015 05:33
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Laphroaig posted:Smoke grenades are not a BS attack though - they are a special dodge. Special Dodge is not a skill though, it merely describes how the attack interacts with several attackers and provokes ftf rolls with all of them. Special dodge is not in the list of possible orders, therefore it must be fired as BS attack as per the standard rules. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28410-special-dodge-interpretation-and-interaction-with-linked-team/
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Apr 18, 2015 05:48
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JcDent posted:Can someone maybe help me get in contact? Not having search and messages is kind of hard. Not the SA forums, the official Infinity forums.
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Apr 18, 2015 06:25
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Hipster Occultist posted:Special Dodge is not a skill though, it merely describes how the attack interacts with several attackers and provokes ftf rolls with all of them. Its a dodge, not a BS attack - its just a special type of dodge. It comes under the dodge header. You declare a Dodge (Special Dodge) to throw a smoke grenade, not a BS attack. I get why wargamming trader and Solkan think its problematic, but the rules text clearly contradicts what they are saying. From the thread: quote:Special Dodge is the answer to the question ''how do I use smoke special ammo?'' Like the problem is that we have no clue what the hell the developers actually intended to do here - and whether this was an intentional or unintentional change to smoke from N2. In N2 it worked fine, but then we have all this new rules text and rules example. "Special Dodge" is clearly stated as quote:In his Active Turn, a Shaolin Monk decides to lob a Smoke Grenade But the table with active skills doesn't have it. So the smoke grenade is a throwing weapon, so it can make BS attacks, except in the smoke special rules it goes out of its way to say "It is not an Attack." Ultimately, I think its just really terrible wording and their intent is that you throw smoke with PH instead of BS, but as a BS attack basically, and its non-lethal but you make a face to face roll even if you are not trying to directly damage the enemy. So we get blocks and blocks of example text and wording that directly interacts with other wording in an unclear manner. Smoke should PROBABLY be +1 burst from a link team. However the way they have written their rules and FAQ, this is not the case. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 07:56
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double post
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Apr 18, 2015 08:03
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There is no such thing as the special dodge skill. It is listed nowhere on page 246. It is a BS attack using the smoke grenade BS weapon that uses smoke ammo.
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Apr 18, 2015 08:12
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Laphroaig posted:Drop Bears are an attack, not a BS attack, so they would not benefit, even though they are a "Throwing weapon", it just means use PH instead of BS here, not that its use is a BS attack. Negatory. They still make BS Attacks. p107 Throwing Weapon. This weapon can make BS Attacks, but uses the PH Attribute in place of BS. When using this weapon, consider all rules and MODs that would affect the trooper’s BS as affecting his PH Attribute instead. Re: Smoke - Special Dodge p111 Bear in mind that Special Dodge and the Dodge Skill are different things with different rules. --- The fact that using Smoke is a Special Dodge affects the rules governing Template Weapons in two separate ways: »»When, as part of an Order or ARO, the trooper throwing Smoke is facing off against several enemies, his Roll is used against all eligible Face to Face Attack Rolls, but he will need to win every single Face to Face Roll in order to leave the Smoke Template on the table. »»Enemies affected by the Area of Effect of the Smoke Tem- plate that declare Dodge as an ARO to abandon said Area of Effect make a Normal Roll and not a Face to Face Roll against the Smoke-throwing trooper. Otherwise, it's an impact template weapon, therefore a BS weapon. It only behaves differently in those very specific ways outlined in the rules. If you have no clue it is because you are bad at careful reading. Looking this up took me less than fifteen minutes. Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 08:17
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Laphroaig posted:Its a dodge, not a BS attack - its just a special type of dodge. It comes under the dodge header. You declare a Dodge (Special Dodge) to throw a smoke grenade, not a BS attack. Page 112 "Bear in mind that Special Dodge and the Dodge Skill are different things with different rules" So that would lead me to believe that it as does not fall under the dodge header, and since special dodge is not a skill, the only way the grenade can be throw is under a BS Attack. The holw "this is not an attack thing" is in my mind poor translation.
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Apr 18, 2015 08:20
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Yeah the "This is not an Attack" is just there to create even more confusing rules interactions with poo poo like Sixth Sense L1, despite them having had these exact issues in N2 and had to FAQ them already.
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Apr 18, 2015 08:30
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Just where? Am I having deja vu? 
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Apr 18, 2015 08:45
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Is there a reason why I don't see Gwailos that often?
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Apr 18, 2015 17:46
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Not a viking posted:Is there a reason why I don't see Gwailos that often?
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Apr 18, 2015 17:56
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Not a viking posted:Is there a reason why I don't see Gwailos that often? They were pretty overcosted in 2ed, they're decent now. Especially as linked HRL or for boarding actions.
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Apr 18, 2015 19:01
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This might be a long shot: I'll be visiting Edinburgh next week. Does anyone know, if there's a FLGS there that carries Infinity-miniatures? My local FLGS (@ Oulu, Finland) doesn't carry Infinity and I'd like to
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Apr 18, 2015 20:05
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Proxied a Steel Phalanx list today to see if I would like them. Went with a two fire teams of Myrmidons and one fire team of Thorakitai. 14 orders total just seems so much more powerful after having been playing with 10. Having multiple fire teams was nice, and I like warband style play of smoke and getting close. However, I'm not sure about actually getting some Steel Phalanx models. The sectorial seems a little one dimensional. It sort of seems to be about Myrmidons, Myrmidons, and more Myrmidons, and then either some really expensive order starved models that seem not that great for the price or a Thoraktai fire team that is cheap enough to have enough orders to do something. Is there an alternate way to build Steel Phalanx I'm not seeing?
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Apr 19, 2015 07:19
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Cyclomatic posted:Proxied a Steel Phalanx list today to see if I would like them. Are you using the special characters? They're the real strength of steel phalanx.
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Apr 19, 2015 08:03
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Cyclomatic posted:Is there an alternate way to build Steel Phalanx I'm not seeing? It's called "liking Myrmidons".  And not having multiple named characters in your force is not an option.
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Apr 19, 2015 08:43
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Ran the list below. Played Supremacy. Macheon link smoked up and capped console in one quadrant and then basically formed a cordon at the end of a street and basically sat there in cover smoking any time they saw anything happen. Two Myrmidons were dropped but Macheon got them back up and re-formed the link. Highlight was a Wulver coming through the smoke to CC a Myrmidon and it getting nanopulser-ed 6x times. In hindsight I should have thrown the smoke a little farther out so the edge of the smoke wasn't within 4 inches of the Myrmidon. Phoenix link smoked up the other side covering the Thorkatai to make for the other console. Phoenix team managed to smoke their way into the far quadrant and murder a vet Kazak in close combat in the smoke. Was touch and go since the vet kazak dodged 2 inches away when I tossed smoke at his feet and made me burn an extra order to get to him. Also failed to wound him on the first melee attack, so ended up breaking the link and sending in a new Myrmidon to get the burst bonus without letting him normal roll against the non-leader. Reformed the link and ended with Phoenix getting a lane of fire across the entire board parallel with their deployment zone and about 4 inches out of it. Of course he gets crit and dies the first time he gets to fire his rocket launcher. Managed to control 3x quadrants. Thorkatai flip console. Then tripped over my own feet due to a hole I left in my smoke and had to fall back. Engineer used their combi rifle to clean out line Kazaks in prep for the Phoenix link to assault the far quadrant and held my near quadrant. Burnt some orders speculative firing flash bangs at a vet kazak in suppressive fire. The heroes did add some differentiation to the Myrmidon links. Macheon was a pretty big road block because he creates this awful damned if you do damned if you done situation where if you don't burn orders to finish off a dropped Myrmidon he will spend one order to get it back up and it will likely take more than one order to get it down again, where if you finish it off he taxed you one order for just existing. Phoenix was about finding a good spot to set up his rocket launcher. Ajax looks sweet, in that if you are going to smoke your way to a target, he can make sure you put it down hard and BS13 B5 combi rifles on ARM 5 and 3 wounds is legit. Eurados is a MK12 which is a legit gun, and Number 2 could be solid as you often can end up with your link leader exposed depending on how you spent your last order on the team and what they needed to do. The non-myrmidon stuff is the stuff that seems a bit boring or seems waaaaaaay to expensive, especially if you want to get anywhere close to 14ish orders. The Thoratai link seems more boring hero wise. Ekodromi seem really really expensive, especially when they lose cover after their first victim that likely costs 1/3 or 1/4th of their points. Assault hacking devices don't have controlled jump either so that makes potentially rolling far less threatening. Penny seems interesting, as with B2 smoke you can reliably throw it pretty far and she seems like she has the speed to then assault efficiently, but 44 points is so oppressively expensive after you've bought what you have to buy to get you to 14ish orders. Seems like a 400 point sectorial, because running 10 orders just seems to border on seeming terrible compared to running 14-15 orders. Not sure if that is true, but it feels true based on the limited experience. Maybe they just need more loving Myrmidon characters. None of these lovely non-Myrmidon characters wasting space. Kind of thinking maybe I should look at Tohaa instead.  Steel Phalanx────────────────────────────────────────────────── Group 1   8  0  0 MYRMIDON Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 30) PHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 35) MYRMIDON Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 31) MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16) MACHAON Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38) MYRMIDON Spitfire, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 31) MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16) MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16)Group 2 6 0 0 ALKÊ Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 26) THORAKITES Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (20) THORAKITES Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (20) THORAKITES (Forward Observer) Submachine gun, Chain Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (13) NETROD Electric Pulse. (4) NETROD Electric Pulse. (4)6 SWC | 300 Points Open with Army 5
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Apr 19, 2015 09:11
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Embrace the 10 order 1 combat group. You're an elite army! I run the following list and its currently 8-0 in our escalation league. It runs two Fireteams. The one 3 man contains Phoenix, a Myrmidon Chain, and the Officer and the other fireteam contains 4 dudes, one chain myrmidon and the rest of the special characters. Steel Phalanx────────────────────────────────────────────────── Group 1 10 0 2 EKDROMOS Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Chain Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 25) THRASYMEDES Infiltrator (Infiltration) Submachine gun, Nanopulser, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW . (27) AJAX 2 Combi Rifles, Nanopulser / AP Heavy Pistol, EXP CCW. (39) MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16) EUDOROS Mk12, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (40) MACHAON Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38) PHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 35) MYRMIDON (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 37) MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (16) AGÊMA Marksman Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open with Army 5
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Apr 19, 2015 09:25
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Part of the problem is that I play against a LOT of Ariadna. So many dudes. So many orders to feed into their HMGs, so many eyes everywhere seeing you spend orders. Having those extra orders to clean out the garbage seems to make things work so much smoother against them.
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Apr 19, 2015 09:34
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The problem with the "lots of orders" route is that we're limited to 2 netrods, and Thokatari are generally best used in their 13 point FO role. I'm not confident that they're a solid myrmidon replacement. We pay a premium thanks to ODD, trust in it! I'm honestly surprised that you're getting mowed down with HMG's that are at best BS 10, BS7 if you have cover. (BS 5 if you get close!) If HMG's are you giving you trouble, then kill them first. I play against a fair amount of Ariadna as well, and generally my burst 4 Mk12 at BS 16 thanks to a linked Eurdoros is enough to win most face to face rolls, and zero-v smoke keeps you safe against p much anything. Hell, half the time I can land my Ekdromoi and just sneak up on them thanks to martial arts. Thraysmedes infiltrating up the side works wonders as well.
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Apr 19, 2015 09:59
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My JSA has been getting mowed down by the HMGs. In the proxy game I played I didn't have too many problems outside of Phoenix getting critted to death because 4 dice. I actually only lost Phoenix, a net rod, and had two Myrmidons wounded but doctored back up. However in my mind a goodly portion of the success was because of having the second order group of Thoraktai able to clean out all the ARO generating trash sitting in cover between the Myrmidon fire team and the real targets. Ariadna creates a real problem where if you have 30 or less orders to get things done, and they spam dudes and used all their command tokens on coordinated orders to get them up and put them in cover then you either start taking a lot of normal roll AROs or you just run out of orders. They are extremely taxing.
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Apr 19, 2015 18:46
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Apr 19, 2015 19:06
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Cyclomatic posted:My JSA has been getting mowed down by the HMGs. Fair enough, without seeing you play I can't exactly go, nope you're wrong. And believe me, I know how annoying Ariadna can be. I just took my Caledonians to a tourney today, out of a possible 40 objective points I took 38. I killed 250+ points in almost every game. Aleph was my hardest fight, but the dude didn't watch the objectives close enough. Hipster Occultist fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 01:07
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Tell me your Caledonia secrets! I finally got my Ariadna off the shelf yesterday, and promptly got my rear end handed to me (preventably, I went and ignored my own advice about covering you DZ against drop troops because I was too excited about monstering things with my Cateran). I'm pretty excited about vanilla right now, but Caledonia is first on the list of sectorials to try.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:55
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Well once the infinity site is back up I'll post my list, but in a nutshell Covert Action Uxia infiltrates up to their deployment edge on a 16 with enough short ranged firepower to do some damage. I also tend to burn a ton of orders running McMurrogh up the side of board, he can usually be counted on to kill 2-3 models before biting it thanks to smoke, fast move, and martial arts stealth. SAS FO's are pro teir objective grabbers. A Cateran and a AP HMG Moramer provide great long range firepower from an elevated position as well. Between Uxia and McMurrogh in your DZ, SAS on the middle line, and those guys I can usually keep stuff penned up in their deployment so well I just take'em apart. Specialists include the 2 SAS, Uxia, a 112, a Dozer (mostly for a traktor mul), and Isobel. I also run Wallace in a Galwegian link and hide like a bitch until I need to commit him late game.
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Apr 20, 2015 06:45
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