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Lurdiak posted:I dunno. To me this is so inelegant and patronising that it's almost like if Punisher had stayed black and we decided to count that as a win since it adds diversity. Well people still count Psylocke as Asian. Kainser posted:I really don't get Bendis sometime. I'll reserve my judgment until I can read the full story but it seems like it would be a way better choice to make Magik lesbian if he wanted to make a 'classic' character homosexual since that would both make sense and not cause a ton of questions. I don't think Bendis gets Bendis sometimes. Kelp Plankton posted:It could just be that modern iceman is bisexual or otherwise closeted and any mind-readers who have been inside his head have the common loving courtesy to not out him without his permission, gently caress you jean grey and your whole mindreading-without-permission gimmick
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Apr 21, 2015 14:31
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hope and vaseline posted:You know, I do get it. It's a nice idea to put a little more LGBTQ representation into any franchise. The whole way he's doing it just really awful. Like others have mentioned the double minority suppression thing just hits a little too close to gay conversion therapy here, and the implication that it actually did work on present Iceman (again, telepaths have been in present Iceman's head a couple of times) is a really disturbing idea because, frankly, it does not loving work in real life. Yeah but that's going into implications and that. I'm just waiting to see how present day Bobby is shown as handling things before condemning or saying it's conversion. A lot of people genuinely do bury their sexuality deep rather than deal with it. Yvonmukluk posted:Well I've seen at least one individual disagree (I'm holding off on posting it until the issue is actually released, though). And they already established the ANXM are in fact the past versions back in BotA, remember? I'm not really interested in whether one person disagrees or not. I like it, i've seen some friends and other people like it and I'm waiting to see how they handle things when it gets a full on issue to develop with both past/present Bobby. It's also a retcon, they can retcon BotA or anything else they feel like. Kelp Plankton posted:It could just be that modern iceman is bisexual or otherwise closeted and any mind-readers who have been inside his head have the common loving courtesy to not out him without his permission, gently caress you jean grey and your whole mindreading-without-permission gimmick Yeah the way Jean is doing things can make her look like the world's worst person for straight up making him say it out loud but it's something people can need sometimes. It's a touchy thing and people out themselves/get outed in different ways. She obviously felt that Bobby was hurting himself with his overcompensation every time a woman appeared.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:34
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I don't think even Quentin Quire, noted douche, is as bad about rooting through private thoughts and secrets nonstop, is he? The way Bendis writes Jean is just so weird.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:34
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A Tin Of Beans posted:I don't think even Quentin Quire, noted douche, is as bad about rooting through private thoughts and secrets nonstop, is he? The way Bendis writes Jean is just so weird. He writes people getting mad at Jean using her powers to read minds without permission. It was a sore spot with young Scott.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:35
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Codependent Poster posted:He writes people getting mad at Jean using her powers to read minds without permission. It was a sore spot with young Scott. Sure. But I just want her to stop doing it, honestly. I don't mind the time displaced o5 too bad, but teen Jean is the worst. He sometimes hits good character notes with her but this stuff drags it down. Edit: I guess I'll get my wish anyway with Bendis leaving the book so soon. A Tin Of Beans fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 14:40
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Everyone is angry at Jean for reading minds without permission and instead of stopping she's just like
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Apr 21, 2015 14:46
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I love the idea of people theorycrafting increasingly complex, absurd, comic book ideas to sensibly explain someone's sexuality fluctuating during their teen years.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:52
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Lurdiak posted:It would make a lot more sense if time travel wasn't involved. Or if he picked a character who had something resembling a hint of homosexuality, or at least of having insecurity in that department. Hell, Bobby coming out as trans would make more sense than his past self being told he's gay. This is just Bendis slamming a square peg into a round hole like he always does... no pun intended. I've been looking into this since my first post, and there have been hints over the years. More than just the typical "can't handle relationships" that every comic book character has. It's probably because it caught on as a part of the zeitgeist (there was even a Family Guy bit about it), but whatever the reason, eventually writers started making direct allusions to it, whether you want to read them just as in-jokes or as meaningful subtext. This bit from X-Factor is probably the most direct one I've found:   Certainly you can easily read that as being all on Rictor's part, and being against Bendis' interpretation. But you can also read it as supporting what he's saying. Quite easily. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 15:06
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I think this is a clumsy move that doesn't add much unique benefit while dragging through a lot of baggage and confusion. So basically it's a normal comic book.
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Apr 21, 2015 15:19
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While we're sort of on the topic, I guess - aside from his wedding, what are some good Northstar stories, and are any of them up on Unlimited? The Unlimited thing is key because I am cheap. 
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Apr 21, 2015 15:31
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While I didn't like the run, I think that the recent Young Avengers run is a nice example of having characters explore their sexuality instead of suddenly outing a character and throwing bisexual people into a garbage can. Bobby thinking about where he fits on the queer spectrum would have been nice instead of seeing his chance to explore ripped away from him..
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Apr 21, 2015 15:46
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You should probably spoiler tag some of that post.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:00
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Lurdiak posted:You should probably spoiler tag some of that post. Yeah, I couldn't decide if it made sense to spoiler anything when I'm only really talking about things that have already happened in the past. It'd be like spoilering discussion of old Gambit and Sinister plotlines if it was revealed that he was definitely related to Scott after all. I decided to just redact it all.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:39
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XboxPants posted:Yeah, I couldn't decide if it made sense to spoiler anything when I'm only really talking about things that have already happened in the past. It'd be like spoilering discussion of old Gambit and Sinister plotlines if it was revealed that he was definitely related to Scott after all. I decided to just redact it all. My personal policy for spoilers is to avoid giving people enough context clues to piece together the spoiler being alluded to. It's served me well.
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Apr 21, 2015 16:53
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A Tin Of Beans posted:While we're sort of on the topic, I guess - aside from his wedding, what are some good Northstar stories, and are any of them up on Unlimited? The Unlimited thing is key because I am cheap. Eve of Destruction isn't a good story really (at all) but it was my first exposure to Northstar and part of why I've taken some interest in whatever series he's been on (except I wasn't really able to with that Liu book, it just seemed too inconsequential to me. That probably just means I'm a bad fan.)
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Apr 21, 2015 17:45
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Aphrodite posted:Also there is no Future Bobby. Wait a second. Gandalf is played by Ian McKellen, and Ian McKellen is.. 
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Apr 21, 2015 19:10
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Waterhaul is right.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:37
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quote:(2:47:12 PM) Fermata: that's all Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 19:50
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Yvonmukluk posted:Because he couldn't have bit the bullet and have Kitty come out, could he? That would at least make sense and the subtext has been there for years, not to mention she's more popular than Bobby. But I guess that'd get in the way of having her hook up with Star-Lord or whatever. I guess it would seem too much like a PR stunt making Kitty gay or bisexual after Ellen Page came out as gay, even if it would far more organic for her than Bobby.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:16
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I feel like I must run in different fandoms than some people because Iceman being gay/bisexual/just generally sort of queer is something that I've been hearing from fans since I was reading X-Men back in the late '90's. And while I don't think this is a great reveal (as much as it might retroactively justify some embarrassing fanfiction I wrote as a teenager) I don't understand the strong reactions against it. Is there that much investment in Iceman being straight? What do we lose with him revealing he's gay? His relationship with Emma Frost or Kitty Pryde? If you're only complaining because you feel the change doesn't jive with established history or characterization, that's fine. That's 99% of arguments about comic books. But I am really curious about what people feel are the stakes in the situation.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:44
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I don't have a problem with Bobby being gay at all. Not one whit! The common complaint that I agree with is that his coming out is handled pretty terribly via psychic invasion, and I really really hope we get a better explanation from older Bobby about this, because saying that he was able to just 'put the gay away' is borderline insulting. I don't think I've seen anyone mad at the actual reveal besides the standard cries of 'why don't they just make a NEW CHARACTER' that happens whenever there's a change to anyone. Most everyone I see irked by it is more talking about the details and implications. E: I mean, it seems like it could be a really nice piece of character work if there was some buildup and young and future characters could sit down and have a heart-to-heart. Instead we get a pretty arbitrary 'oh I looked in your head, welp.' NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 20:50
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I can't wait for them to make Wolverine gay and somehow explain that his attraction to Jean Gray was just her being a piece of poo poo who forcefully makes people attracted to her with her psychic powers because she's so insecure and a petty, terrible person and all of his other relationships with women were just him lying to himself apparently like Bobby has been doing all along.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:56
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Two Tone Shoes posted:I can't wait for them to make Wolverine gay Too late 
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Apr 21, 2015 20:58
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bobkatt013 posted:Too late Oh obviously certain versions of Wolverine are gay. Certain versions of Wolverine are everything. But we need regular ol skirt chasing Wolverine to be gay and it was all a cover for his super deeply repressed homosexuality and also he's not even a little bit bisexual.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:05
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Certain versions of Wolverine are everything. He can even bring a banana to a knitting circle! 
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Apr 21, 2015 21:12
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Oh obviously certain versions of Wolverine are gay. Certain versions of Wolverine are everything. But we need regular ol skirt chasing Wolverine to be gay and it was all a cover for his super deeply repressed homosexuality and also he's not even a little bit bisexual. You wanna talk about what's got you so upset, buddy? It's normal to think about gay Wolverine, but you seem kind of riled.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:15
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Die Laughing posted:You wanna talk about what's got you so upset, buddy? It's normal to think about gay Wolverine, but you seem kind of riled. Eh, not riled up, just kind of mocking it. It's pretty stupid writing and kind of really messes with that huge backload of relationships Bobby has had in the past. Like not too long ago he subconsciously sent out ice clones to the people he loved and was attracted to. For this to be true it has to be an extremely long, extremely elaborate history or repression the likes of which has never been seen...or he ungays himself somehow which is probably worse. Wolverine was just the first guy to come to mind with a similar history with the ladies.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:18
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Lets see how it all works out.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:20
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Alright so I'm a big gay and Iceman was one of my favorite characters when I was younger and I just found out about this and... ...my initial gut reaction was, goddamn that was one of the worst-written scenes I've ever read in my life. To say nothing of it being a really badly-written outing. I mean. I guess it's almost a blessing in disguise 'cuz we don't really have equality until we have as many horrific stilted outing scenes as we do tactful endearing ones! But then of course it also really does its job because now I am interested in what's happening here and how they'll possibly explain this about older Bobby so, well played, Bendis, you terrible writer, you sneaky little gently caress, well played. I think ultimately this is probably a good thing moving forward, but it's also going to depend on how they depict it moving forward. Like it or not, Bendis has set up a really significant, character-driven mystery here that might well be -- let's be honest here -- the only interesting thing that Bobby has actually been involved with in about seven or eight years. If you can't take use comic books to take advantage of time-travel to tell stories about sexuality then heck, just what are comics even for? The problem is Bendis, of course. I absolutely, categorically mistrust his ability to conclude this plot thread in a good way, because at this point he's the writer who, no matter how intricate and compelling his setups, still makes you go "So what the heck was the point of all that?" at the end of literally any story he writes. I mean, there should not be any possible way for a revelation of this sort to not be significant and consequential and point-y, and yet I still expect Bendis to find a way to make it so. Already the setup is ringing a ton of alarm bells. (Look, I don't actually dislike Bendis as much as I do some other writers I could name, but preemptively setting expectations low in order to be surprised and impressed at the end of the day is the only real way to read his stuff nowadays. Or, possibly, ever.)
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Apr 21, 2015 21:21
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If current Bobby turned up with his current boyfriend and said, "Yeah, there was a weird spark, and I was so busy being offscreen that nobody noticed," that'd make more sense to me. With something like this, where Past Bobby is into dudes but Current Bobby isn't, that's a little weird and has some bizarre subtext. I have to agree that it'd be better to try to replicate the Ms. Marvel scenario with a brand-new character at this point, especially if you put some gangbuster team on there like Roberto Aguire-Sarcasa and Phil Jimenez, or maybe get Caitlin Kiernan back into comics.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:24
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Little Mac posted:Waterhaul is right. 
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Apr 21, 2015 21:25
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I don't think Bendis will be following up anything. Isn't tomorrow his last issue?
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Apr 21, 2015 21:28
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Wanderer posted:If current Bobby turned up with his current boyfriend and said, "Yeah, there was a weird spark, and I was so busy being offscreen that nobody noticed," that'd make more sense to me. Nobody has said that current Bobby isn't into dudes yet, it's still a to be seen thing! I would love for Marvel to follow DC's lead and give a gay character an ongoing and put Aguire-Sarcasa on it (though even with Looking cancelled I think he's way too busy with Archie), team him up with someone like Kris Anka on interiors and Kevin Wada on covers and go crazy with it.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:30
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Wanderer posted:If current Bobby turned up with his current boyfriend and said, "Yeah, there was a weird spark, and I was so busy being offscreen that nobody noticed," that'd make more sense to me. My only problem with the new character idea is how often X-kids get shuffled to the side or killed off for drama.  Doing this with a major player at least provides some reassurance he'll be around/not dead. Though out of all of them, Bobby is probably the least-utilized it feels like. Well, and Jean, who's dead, but even she's a big deal in alternate timelines and poo poo.I think it's really best to wait and see what Bendis does with it beyond the few pages that have leaked. I still hate his take on Jean, but teenagers are lovely sometimes. Foibles of youth and all I guess. Just sssstop reading people's minds and pulling out secrets, goddamn!
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Apr 21, 2015 21:31
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Deadpool posted:I don't think Bendis will be following up anything. Isn't tomorrow his last issue? 41 is his last issue of All New but he also has Uncanny.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:33
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Waterhaul posted:Nobody has said that current Bobby isn't into dudes yet, it's still a to be seen thing! Yeah, I should've been clearer in that I was being hypothetical. Right now, absent of context, it looks like Teen Bobby's going to surprise the hell out of Current Bobby, since Current Bobby's got a handful of serious female relationships behind him (even if the only one I can think of offhand is Opal Tanaka), but that might not be the case.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:35
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Deadpool posted:I don't think Bendis will be following up anything. Isn't tomorrow his last issue? Yeah, I think this is something for the next writer or writers to play with.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:36
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The thing with this as well is (i'm pretty sure) no post Secret Wars X books or creative teams have been announced. So with the exception of Bendis nose diving things in the next issue or someone dealing with it during Secret Wars it really is a wait and see thing.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:39
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Waterhaul posted:Nobody has said that current Bobby isn't into dudes yet, it's still a to be seen thing! Man, Aguirre-Sacasa has a way more varied output than I thought, I had no idea he was involved with Archie and Looking was a drat good show.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:39
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Waterhaul posted:The thing with this as well is (i'm pretty sure) no post Secret Wars X books or creative teams have been announced. So with the exception of Bendis nose diving things in the next issue or someone dealing with it during Secret Wars it really is a wait and see thing. Sounds like he's just doing it to do it with no plan to make it make sense, then.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:05
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