|
wtb daleal "Atlantis is in South America" post
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 17:15 |
|
|
Recoome posted:wtb daleal "Atlantis is in South America" post Here ya go chum! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486446&userid=212380#post439424526 Buried alive posted:I just want to say that this string of posts is absolutely amazing. Vital called Dalael out on part of the basis for beliefs as personal experience, Dalael whines about him never having said that, then when VItal accuses him of making poo poo up whole cloth Dalael talks about his personal experiences with CPS. I mean, It really is amazing how people will sincerely believe a government agency will function better with less funding.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 06:14
|
|
.
|
Nintendo Kid posted:Here ya go chum! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486446&userid=212380#post439424526 How do you actually do this? I know how to go to a profile and check someone's posting history, but how do you get to put a specific conversation all neatly arranged like this? E: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rom-their-homes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Protective_Services#CPS_problem_reports ----- Pay attention to notable lawsuits. http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/child_protection/disproportionality/how_big.asp http://www.weightiermatter.com/parenting/federal-court-issues-scathing-ruling-san-diego-child-protective-services/4877/ But its okay because we meant well and are under budget!  More budget, yeah maybe. More power? Not without more oversight and/or better procedures. Dalael fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 06:40
|
|
|
Dalael posted:But its okay because we meant well and are under budget! nobody's saying it's ok. everyone is saying that you've got an unrealistic perspective and impossible standards. you're creating a situation where CPS will never be good or successful because it isn't perfect, and that is silly
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:03
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:nobody's saying it's ok. everyone is saying that you've got an unrealistic perspective and impossible standards. you're creating a situation where CPS will never be good or successful because it isn't perfect, and that is silly What? No I'm not. All I said was that I disagree with them getting even more power. Then this whole derail started. E: Obviously mistakes will be made. Nobody is perfect, and no agency can be 100% right in the way it handles things. But we also can't be blind to the issue and fool ourselves into thinking that the system is perfect the way it is. Dalael fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:11
|
|
|
Dalael posted:What? No I'm not. All I said was that I disagree with them getting even more power. Then this whole derail started. this is literally the biggest nothing statement of this century
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:23
|
|
|
My city's fire department doesn't have enough trucks or personnel to get fires properly under control and there have been high-profile fuckups because of lack of training and poor management, so I cut the budget until oversight and accountability improve.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:25
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:My city's fire department doesn't have enough trucks or personnel to get fires properly under control and there have been high-profile fuckups because of lack of training and poor management, so I cut the budget until oversight and accountability improve. Holy poo poo. Dude, you need to re-read this whole loving conversation. I am not against increasing their budget, as long as its not considered the miracle solution. If increasing the budget is the only thing that happens, the problem is not solved. Again, I repeat myself for the likes of you: What I do not agree with, is increasing their power without more oversight. Throwing more money at a problem rarely fixes the problem. The root causes of the issue needs to be addressed first. I never once said they need a budget cut. Once again, you seem to enjoy making things up simply to try and make a point across.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:28
|
|
|
Please state for the record your involvement with CPS, or CPS-like organisations
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:30
|
|
|
Why don't you think increasing the budget will improve oversight and follow-up, when it's the lack of funding that's the biggest obstacle in the way of doing more of that right now? It's not like they're fully-funded and the only reason they're not checking more thoroughly on the welfare of kids in foster homes is because all the managers are lighting cigars with hundred dollar bills while doing lines of coke off of high priced hookers' asses. You're falling for for conservatives' basic playbook: purposely underfund government agencies, and then when they do an incomplete job or a bad job, that's proof they're useless and dangerous. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:33
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Why don't you think increasing the budget will improve oversight and follow-up, when it's the lack of funding that's the biggest obstacle in the way of doing more of that right now? I have linked 2 documentaries along with multiple links that answers the very question you are currently asking. I understand you may not verify those documentaries since they are in french and all, but check the rest of the stuff I linked. Most of it is NOT due to budget restrictions. I have made it very easy for you and others to verify the statements I am making. Do you also want me to spoon feed you and tie your shoes? E: Also, please stop the discrimination. Not all evil managers smoke. Some are very health conscious.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:39
|
|
|
Dalael posted:I have linked 2 documentaries along with multiple links that answers the very question you are currently asking. I understand you may not verify those documentaries since they are in french and all, but check the rest of the stuff I linked. Most of it is NOT due to budget restrictions. I have made it very easy for you and others to verify the statements I am making. haha holy poo poo, what the gently caress is this?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:40
|
|
|
it's pretty clear, to me, that CPS fucks up sometimes, so giving them more resources would naturally just increate the frequency and severity of fuckups. that is how bureaucracy works
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 08:52
|
|
|
Dalael posted:I have linked 2 documentaries along with multiple links that answers the very question you are currently asking. I understand you may not verify those documentaries since they are in french and all, but check the rest of the stuff I linked. Most of it is NOT due to budget restrictions. I have made it very easy for you and others to verify the statements I am making. You mean like this one you posted? ‘A lost tribe': Child welfare system accused of repeating residential school history posted:While such flexibility and creativity may solve short-term problems, Ms. Blackstock wants long-term solutions. Her organization, along with the Assembly of First Nations, filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission in 2007 with the aim of prying more money from Ottawa. The complaint says the government discriminates against aboriginal children living on reserves by providing less funding than is available for non-native children. Hmmmmmmmm... VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 09:24
|
|
|
Dalael posted:Throwing more money at a problem rarely fixes the problem. The root causes of the issue needs to be addressed first. I never once said they need a budget cut. Once again, you seem to enjoy making things up simply to try and make a point across. Thanks for your thoughts, Every Republican State Senator Ever To Walk The Earth
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:13
|
|
|
Dalael posted:Throwing more money at a problem rarely fixes the problem. No, it actually works a surprising amount of the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:18
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:No, it actually works a surprising amount of the time. Yeah, this is super true. You wouldn't think people could just build a rocket and pop to the moon and back in under 10 years, but someone threw large sums of cash at the issue and it happened. Then again, antivax goes well with moonhoax, so who knows!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:34
|
|
|
I mean, hiring more social workers until caseloads were cut in half would have no downsides. It wouldn't even be approaching the point of diminishing returns. Case workers would be able to actually take the time to line up placements and do more checking than "you passed the background check and don't have any registered sex offenders in the house? Oh my god please take child." They'd be able to prepare better for family team decision meetings and do more than hastily copy/paste year-old outdated information into a placement referral. First we need to fix the huge problems with available resources, and then maybe we can look at inefficiency or abuse of power. Because in my experience the latter two are minor issues compared to the first one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:34
|
|
|
Yet another one from Australia: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...d-1227316014631  Seems there's no limit on emotional manipulation in their propaganda; although I'm slightly disappointed that this one wasn't originally created as satire on Something Awful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:35
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I mean, hiring more social workers until caseloads were cut in half would have no downsides. Yeah, I think one thing that's missing from the whole "CPS fucks up families" thing is how many cases exist where children are left in lovely situations because CPS doesn't have the funding or manpower to do anything about it. I knew a couple whose case, involving an injury caused by an accident, was mishandled so badly due to understaffing (their case worker literally did not have a direct supervisor because they hadn't been able to hire/promote anyone into the position, and that led to most of the fuckups) that CPS barely even blinked at them when there should have been a full-scale investigation into the second injury, which was caused by actual neglect.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 13:19
|
|
|
Dalael posted:Also, please stop the discrimination. Not all evil managers smoke. Some are very health conscious. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 13:37
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure that part was a joke. Not a good joke mind you, but a joke nonetheless.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 13:45
|
|
|
Madmarker posted:I'm pretty sure that part was a joke. Not a good joke mind you, but a joke nonetheless. It might have been just a tad funnier if i'd used the right word. I meant to use stereotype instead of discrimination.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 14:14
|
|
|
Let me sum up the last couple pages. Dalael: CPS is terrible. They make mistakes and we should give them less power. There are times when they don't work on cases that are actually a problem and times when they'll take kids away from perfectly fine families. Everyone else: I see your point, but the problem is that they don't have ENOUGH power and funding. It's why they have a hard time dealing with the more difficult cases and sometimes can't properly follow up. More funding would give them more power to act on those cases and allow there to be more oversight to make sure everything is in order. Dalael: They screw up all the time. Here are some documentaries about how awful they are. Also I had some dealings with CPS where they hosed up two cases that I'm sort of close to. Everyone else: No one said they're perfect, just that they'd be less likely to make mistakes if they had more funding and power. Even the people in the documentaries agree with that solution. And, sure, they should have more oversight, which they'd have if they had more funding. Dalael: That's what I said, that they should have more funding and oversight.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 14:32
|
|
|
Dalael posted:http://www.weightiermatter.com/parenting/federal-court-issues-scathing-ruling-san-diego-child-protective-services/4877/ This looks basically fine? CPS responded to a report by a doctor of parents coming in with a one-year-old child who showed signs of intentional non-accidental head injury and then removing the child from the hospital without conducting recommended tests, removed the children from the home while a full investigation - particularly the medical exams that the doctor had recommended - was conducted, and the children were returned unharmed after further investigation ruled out the parents as the source of injury. Even a source as biased as this one notes that, as a result of the "gestapo-like" investigation consisting of horrific rights violations like giving an x-ray to an infant with an intentionally-inflicted head injury, the daycare lost its license and was closed down. The children were indeed being abused, and believing that the nature of the injury suggested imminent danger and unable to obtain evidence ruling out the parents as the source, they erred on the side of caution and removed the children for their own safety while they conducted medical exams and a deeper investigation. The court's "scathing report" referred to in that article essentially depends on the judge's conclusions that intentional head injuries inflicted upon a preverbal infant are not an emergency (by the way, gently caress that judge) and that the parents' failure to seek immediate care, offer any explanation, or report the injury is not grounds to suspect them as a possible culprit (did I say "gently caress that judge" already? because gently caress that goddamn judge). See how much different the story sounds when you listen to more perspectives than just the biased report presented by an anti-CPS site? So what kind of solutions do you propose? You've spent this entire thread talking about how CPS needs to be better, but you haven't provided any specifics beyond "they're bad" and "they shouldn't get the power to be better until they get better". But they have limited power and ability to investigate, are tasked with protecting the most vulnerable groups of people, and are faced with opposition from legions of rear end in a top hat parents who think spanking bans and medical exams are horrific civil rights violations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 15:16
|
|
|
That site is literally advocating that people file RICO claims on the grounds that federal funding tied to enforcement of certain laws like the Violence Against Women Act constitutes a kickback and hence "honest services fraud", or that being forced to pay attorney's fees or court costs is extortion under color of law. Dalael, you could have been honest from the outset and told us that your position on CPS is informed by a literal conspiracy theory site with a Sovereign Citizen level of legal discourse. The president of the California Coalition, which runs that blog, is disbarred attorney Colbern Stuart. Why was he disbarred? Did it have something to do with his fight against the "divorce and custody industry"? Hmm, let's see:quote:Stuart was convicted criminally of creating and sending approximately 21 emails and/or telephone calls to his former wife that were threatening, obscene and calculated to harass. The conviction went to the State Bar Court for a determination of whether it involved moral turpitude. Nope, seems totally legit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 15:46
|
|
|
Dalael posted:But we also can't be blind to the issue and fool ourselves into thinking that the system is perfect the way it is. Holy poo poo dude, are you retarded? Nobody loving said that CPS is perfect. Increasing their budget can help to improve oversight and maybe prevent some of the tragedies where a child either fell through the cracks or was placed in a home that turned out to be lovely, so if you want to prevent these things then let's agree that increasing the CPS budget is a good idea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 16:10
|
|
|
I think we need to stop making vaccine parodies here, they seem to keep escaping and getting taken seriously
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
Joke's on them I've never seen a doctor give a vaccine in my life, that's what nurses are for.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 18:33
|
|
|
Could we go back to talking about vaccines, or at least vaccine-related CPS abuses. I heard CPS sneaks into children's bedrooms at night and vaccinates them by force- in the teeth, with a drill. No wait, that's dentists.Dr. Arbitrary posted:I want to be clear, no medical professional should ever prescribe homeopathic remedies outside of a research context where the patient is aware that they may or may not be getting real medicine. Here's why I get angry about this- the "vitamin C" category wasn't really legal until relatively recently, and the homeopathic category isn't going to be for much longer- FDA is prepping a hearing and crackdown. What's the harm? Simple- the companies are legally lying to consumers and distorting their understanding of science, nutrition and medicine. The beliefs they use to justify taking these things when they have a cold are also used, for the same set of motivations, when they have a heart condition- and give clinicians and industry actors an incentive to market these products using such beliefs. I'm particularly high-strung about this at the moment, because of a very recent incident (yesterday) involving highly placed people I can't identify (a fellow panelist and high-level consumer advocates and industry) in a national policy conference: Highly placed consumer advocate group attorney: "placebo works, why can't we leverage its effectiveness? Would that really be wrong to tell patients and consumers-" Me: YES  Thankfully I was the one in the panel with empirical and bioethics credentials, and one other panelist and moderator both supported me- I think that at a minimum those involved understood that this was not an appropriate question to ask or policy to pursue. That's the state of the national level policy discourse. I think I saved any possible career with FDA by interrupting like that- I got a smattering of applause from agency people, which in that kind of setting is a huge deal. Astrofig posted:Ugh my cousin's fiancee is one of these, and the wedding is in like a week. How do I convince him not to marry her, for the good of society? Guillotine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
Astrofig posted:Ugh my cousin's fiancee is one of these, and the wedding is in like a week. How do I convince him not to marry her, for the good of society? Show him pictures of children with polio and ask if he wants any future kids of his to be like this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Could we go back to talking about vaccines, or at least vaccine-related CPS abuses. I heard CPS sneaks into children's bedrooms at night and vaccinates them by force- in the teeth, with a drill. No wait, that's dentists. Trip report, trip report!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 00:49
|
|
|
Dalael posted:Throwing more money at a problem rarely fixes the problem. The root causes of the issue needs to be addressed first.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 03:08
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Could we go back to talking about vaccines, or at least vaccine-related CPS abuses. I heard CPS sneaks into children's bedrooms at night and vaccinates them by force- in the teeth, with a drill. No wait, that's dentists. That true? * From the very best of sources - a Cracked article. Discendo Vox posted:
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 03:18
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:Trip report, trip report! I need to think about how much I can disclose without fully identifying myself or potentially damaging my career prospects- not sure if I can do it. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 03:43
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:I heard American CPS actually allow rich people to "order" other peoples kids, at which point the evil minions find an excuse to snatch them up and hand them over to their new parent*. Well when rich people swoop in with all their paperwork completed, social workers don't exactly keep looking for other placements. e: unfortunately those people have little interest in children in need of behavioral rehabilitation services
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 03:49
|
|
|
I have to try the apple in the arm pit trick. Who knew..? Learn something new every day
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 05:30
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I need to think about how much I can disclose without fully identifying myself or potentially damaging my career prospects- not sure if I can do it. Aww, fair enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 13:58
|
|
|
The Vermont Senate has voted to remove the philosophical exemption for childhood vaccination (this is distinct from the religious exemption, which still stands). Whether or not it will pass the House is still in question, though for my money I'd expect that it will. Governor Shumlin hasn't outright threatened a veto, but he has commented previously that he thinks the philosophical exemption should be retained. So I guess we'll see, if it gets that far.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 21:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 17:15 |
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:The Vermont Senate has voted to remove the philosophical exemption for childhood vaccination (this is distinct from the religious exemption, which still stands). Whether or not it will pass the House is still in question, though for my money I'd expect that it will. http://healthvermont.gov/hc/imm/documents/Philexemption_2013.pdf
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 23:23
|
|
