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My Imaginary GF posted:Its terrorism, and there is never an excuse for terrorism. Quit attempting to equivocate. a) No rockets were fired from or stored near any water or electrical facilities. The location of these facilities were intentionally reported to Israel as sites that Hamas operatives would never approach, because they could not afford to have them bombed. Israel deliberately bombed them anyway, as an act of collective punishment. b) Hamas had been aggressively policing rocket attacks right up until operation Brother's Keeper, during which Israel launched a series of unprovoked air strikes. c) You say there's no excuse for terrorism, but you keep making excuses for Israeli terrorism. Why is that?
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Apr 22, 2015 10:59
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Kajeesus posted:a) No rockets were fired from or stored near any water or electrical facilities. The location of these facilities were intentionally reported to Israel as sites that Hamas operatives would never approach, because they could not afford to have them bombed. Israel deliberately bombed them anyway, as an act of genocide. Let's call things with the proper name. What Israel is creating is the equivalent of a bacteriological attack, and the aim is not to punish the Palestinians but to exterminate them.
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Apr 22, 2015 11:57
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Attacking the Israeli military is not terrorism. It isn't terrorism, in my opinion, to attack military targets. Terrorism is attacks on civilians, things like suicide bombings in cafes or mosques or shrines, or 9/11, or bombing busses and trains. Whether indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilian population centers is terrorism isn't all that ambiguous to me. Whether you've got a bomb strapped to you, or you're driving around in a car throwing bombs at people, or you're attaching bombs to rockets and firing them at people doesn't make all that much difference. It's looking more and more like the rocket attacks on Israel weren't worth it for gaza, that they were a mistake with terrible consequences. Wouldn't the best hope for gaza be unilateral unconditional disarmament, and a plea for help to Israel with relief and rebuilding? If Israel had nothing to fear from gaza, it would become very hard for them to defend their embargo on it, or to defend doing nothing to help.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:17
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Rocket attacks certainly were not good for Gazans. Which is why it should be recognized that this was understood very well by Hamas up until Brother's Keeper, which was yet another heavy-handed operation resulting in needless loss of civilian life. This was iirc the point where Hamas lost control of its fringe members and other radical groups, who began firing rockets again after a lengthy period of not doing so, in retaliation for the aforementioned operation. Unjustified, but the worst was soon to follow. These acts of terrorism should have led Israel to target the terrorists firing missiles and not civilian infrastructure like hospitals, power plants, shelters and children on the beach - punishing Gazan civilians collectively for acts they did not commit. The onus for this disproportionality is on Israel, not the civilian population of Gaza. Collective punishment was wrong in the Warsaw Ghetto and it still is today.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:32
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Honestly, who cares? Regardless of Hamas' actions, there are hundreds of thousands of people living in absolute squalor right now. The billions in international aid that were promised were never delivered, and the Palestinian Authority is so fundamentally unable to provide any relief to Gaza that they refuse to even be associated with it. Hundreds of thousands are homeless and hundreds of thousands more live in ruins. The crops have been ruined, Gaza's water supplies are almost entirely undrinkable, Gaza only gets four hours of power a day, and a number of babies died of hypothermia and exposure over the winter. Every human right and need and convenience is lacking in Gaza - food, water, shelter, power, and healthcare. Families have been decimated, and PTSD is widespread. Over a million people, half of them children, are living in abject and inhumane misery due to the collective punishment policies being carried out against Gaza. Whether Hamas is a terrorist group or a freedom fighter group is mostly a subjective matter; it's not like the two terms are really mutually exclusive anyway. But you know what's not subjective? The tremendous human suffering going on in Gaza, right now, while people at every level - from idiot internet commenters all the way up to world leaders - ignore it and argue about stupid political details instead. It doesn't really matter whether Hamas is good or bad, enforcing this sort of deprivation and destruction on a civilian population is a crime against humanity by every modern metric, and the world's collective failure to relieve that immense suffering is a crime second only to Israel and Egypt's intentional creation of that situation. It's too easy to get caught up in abstracts and black-and-whites and forget to humanize the situation. Instead of shouting "Israel good, Hamas bad" and "Hamas good, Israel bad" back and forth, can we all agree that Gaza shouldn't be a place where old women have to choose between living in a refugee camp or being crushed by the collapse of their ruined home? http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/national/9544-partially-damaged-gaza-home-collapses-over-old-womans-head quote:Shinnara Hamid, aged 78 years, on Saturday was announced dead after her home which was partially damaged in the last summer's Israeli offensive against Gaza, collapsed upon her head in Jabalia refugee camp northern Gaza strip.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:42
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hakimashou posted:Attacking the Israeli military is not terrorism. It isn't terrorism, in my opinion, to attack military targets. Terrorism is attacks on civilians, things like suicide bombings in cafes or mosques or shrines, or 9/11, or bombing busses and trains. Why does it matter whether Hamas' actions are terrorism? You clearly don't have a problem with terrorism in general. hakimashou posted:Wouldn't the best hope for gaza be unilateral unconditional disarmament, and a plea for help to Israel with relief and rebuilding? What do you think happened to Gaza in the years before operation Brother's Keeper?
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Apr 22, 2015 15:59
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hakimashou posted:Terrorism is attacks on civilians, things like suicide bombings in cafes or mosques or shrines, or 9/11, or bombing busses and trains. Or bombing hospitals and power plants and water treatment plants, right?
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Apr 22, 2015 16:30
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Hamas should provide warning before launching rocket attacks and should also make (admittedly futile) attempts to launch them towards strategic targets such as airports and military bases. This would put the rocket attacks on even footing with Israeli bombing campaigns and other historical campaigns of military terror such as the WWII allied bombing campaigns.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:49
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No it wouldn't, because the rocket attacks are incapable of deliberately destroying Israeli infrastructure and precipitating a public health crisis to satisfy the lust for collective punishment.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:51
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Morally speaking, of course. E: I realize that rocket attacks are actually way more humane than any Allied bombing campaign.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:52
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Cat Mattress posted:Pretty sure that was the plan all along. There's a reason Israel systematically and deliberately destroyed all hospitals and water infrastructures. Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. Any site used to launch an attack is open to retaliation. Don't like it? Gaza should police itself.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. Any site used to launch an attack is open to retaliation. Don't like it? Gaza should police itself. If Israel doesn't like rocket attacks, it should police itself and stop the settlements
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Apr 22, 2015 16:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. Any site used to launch an attack is open to retaliation. Don't like it? Gaza should police itself. No they weren't, and Israel has shown that Gaza policing itself won't prevent attacks. You know this. You're not just a racist idiot, you're deliberately repeating things you know to not be true.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:58
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hakimashou posted:Attacking the Israeli military is not terrorism. It isn't terrorism, in my opinion, to attack military targets. Terrorism is attacks on civilians, things like suicide bombings in cafes or mosques or shrines, or 9/11, or bombing busses and trains. If Israel had nothing to fear from Gaza, they would begin to colonize it again. The reason they pulled out last time was violence that didn't make it worth staying there. Read some of the history and understand that the Palestians have to choose between getting bombed or getting colonized by settlers.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:01
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All violence perpetrated against settlers on Palestinian land is a justified act of both retaliation and defense.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:05
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Kajeesus posted:No they weren't, and Israel has shown that Gaza policing itself won't prevent attacks. You know this. You're not just a racist idiot, you're deliberately repeating things you know to not be true. Just like no rocket attacks were launched from hospitals, right?
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Apr 22, 2015 17:06
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Miltank posted:All violence perpetrated against settlers on Palestinian land is a justified act of both retaliation and defense. Violence perpetrated by non-state actors is very rarely justified. Violence perpetrated by state actors is acceptable. Which brings us back to the question of the summer, is Hamas a state actor or a nonstate actor? If they're a state actor, as they claim, Israel's response was restrained and entirely legal. If they're a nonstate actor, they're terrorists and Gazans are guilty of sponsoring terrorism.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:09
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. Any site used to launch an attack is open to retaliation. Don't like it? Gaza should police itself. An argument the Nazis used well during their ethnic cleansing campaigns against the Soviet population, destroying civilian infrastructure and sometimes even entire villages under the excuse that it was the civilians' own fault for not aggressively suppressing anti-Nazi partisans.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:Violence perpetrated by non-state actors is very rarely justified. In this situation, violence by pseudo state actors such as Hamas is entirely justified. This is because the Palestinians have been systematically prevented from being represented by a state.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:Just like no rocket attacks were launched from hospitals, right? No, there were rocket attacks launched from hospitals. There were rockets stored in UN schools. Not all of the ones that were bombed by Israel, but some of them. There weren't any rockets stored by or launched from power plants or water treatment facilities.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:37
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When you think about it, Israel's refusal to grant Palestine statehood or induct the Palestinians fully under its own sovereignty, is a terrible crime against humanity.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:47
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DarkCrawler posted:If Israel had nothing to fear from Gaza, they would begin to colonize it again. The reason they pulled out last time was violence that didn't make it worth staying there. Read some of the history and understand that the Palestians have to choose between getting bombed or getting colonized by settlers. Surely getting colonized by settlers is much better though?
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Apr 22, 2015 18:40
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Miltank posted:All violence perpetrated against settlers on Palestinian land is a justified act of both retaliation and defense. All, we've reached the old "the only good Zionist is a dead Zionist" point in the thread again, I see. Cat Mattress posted:Pretty sure that was the plan all along. There's a reason Israel systematically and deliberately destroyed all hospitals and water infrastructures. That way, they get their genocide of the Palestinians, but they can say "it's not us, it's the diseases!" Given that hardcore anti-Zionist kooks have been howling for decades that Israel is gonna implement the Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem any day now, you'd think they'd have developed at least some hesitance to screeching that this time they're finally going to be proven right about the Zionists finally dropping their mask of humanity and firing up the gas chambers to totally exterminate the Palestinians. But that's only if you fail to realize that certain forms of bigotry are essentially immune to engagement with rational fact.
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Apr 22, 2015 18:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:Just like no rocket attacks were launched from hospitals, right? Who cares if they were? That doesn't justify bombing the hospital. The military benefits of bombing rocket launch sites are negligible anyway; it only takes a couple of people to fire off a rocket, and they can be away from the launch site faster than Israel can even get a bomber onto the runway. It's a clear collective punishment policy.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:11
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hakimashou posted:Surely getting colonized by settlers is much better though? Just saying that there wouldn't be any relief or rebuilding coming from Israel, with or without violence. The Insect Court posted:All, we've reached the old "the only good Zionist is a dead Zionist" point in the thread again, I see. Yeah its really hard to make the case that Zionists are driving for genocide, but they are by and large people equivalent to White South Africans in 1980 and OK with settler colonialism and apartheid policy. Won't someone think of the people with racial immigration laws and a government agency tasked with attracting people of the right race to the new frontier. What I'm saying is that you using Zionism like its a perfectly good a thing to be makes you seem like a racist weirdo. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 19:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. No, they weren't. The reason is exclusively and entirely the Israeli's lust for inflicting abject suffering on those they do not consider to be human beings. The Insect Court posted:Given that hardcore anti-Zionist kooks have been howling for decades that Israel is gonna implement the Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem any day now, you'd think they'd have developed at least some hesitance to screeching that this time they're finally going to be proven right about the Zionists finally dropping their mask of humanity and firing up the gas chambers to totally exterminate the Palestinians. But that's only if you fail to realize that certain forms of bigotry are essentially immune to engagement with rational fact. "We are not genociding the Palestinians. We are merely waiting for famine and disease to kill them all, while destroying their food and sanitation infrastructures and preventing them to rebuild.  "The proof is in what's happening in Gaza right now. I agree with you that Israeli racism against Palestinians is entirely immune to reason. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 19:41
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SedanChair posted:I did have to double check. Yeah. But the whites were willing to compromise in time. Had they waited much longer than 1993 then it would have ended in civil war. I don`t trust Israelis to be equally wise.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:46
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Cat Mattress posted:No, they weren't. The reason is exclusively and entirely the Israeli's lust for inflicting abject suffering on those they do not consider to be human beings. Clearly its Israel's fault for launching rockets at themselves, not the folks who produce songs with lyrics such as, 'To kill a jew is righteous jihad.' Clearly, Gaza is Israel's burden to provide for. Not a white man's burden for Israel at all, if only those jews would go away, maybe into the sea, then Palestine would spring forth tomorrow as a developed, Democratic and secular nation, with institutional safeguards and no ethnoreligious tensions. Don't you see how absurd that view is? Don't you see how labeling appropriate state response to nonstate terrorism as "lust for death" enables and emboldens terrorism? My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 19:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:Clearly its Israel's fault for launching rockets at themselves, not the folks who produce songs with lyrics such as, 'To kill a jew is righteous jihad.' Israeli's unironically call for the death of Arabs during their loving soccer games.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:54
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Israeli's unironically call for the death of Arabs during their loving soccer games. And if we can't take the chanting of soccer hooligans seriously in the context of a debate over grave matters of state, what point is there in carrying on?
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Apr 22, 2015 20:02
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Beitar Jerusalem is a hate group which happens to have a football team attached. http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/178232/soccer-thugs-in-jerusalem Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 20:06
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Israeli's unironically call for the death of Arabs during their loving soccer games. Israel has institutions to separate the will of the street from state policy. Gazans have demonstrated their lack of institutions to separate public opinion from inappropriate actions.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:Clearly, Gaza is Israel's burden to provide for. Not a white man's burden for Israel at all, if only those jews would go away, maybe into the sea, then Palestine would spring forth tomorrow as a developed, Democratic and secular nation, with institutional safeguards and no ethnoreligious tensions. As long as Israel takes deliberate steps to make Gaza unlivable and embargo things like seeds and construction materials, yes, Gaza is very much Israel's burden to provide for. If you imprison a man and let him starve to death, should he be blamed for not feeding himself? My Imaginary GF posted:Don't you see how absurd that view is? Don't you see how labeling appropriate state response to nonstate terrorism as "lust for death" enables and emboldens terrorism? It was not an appropriate response, and you know that it wasn't.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel has institutions to separate the will of the street from state policy... Israel has institutions to fund the will of the street as part of state policy. http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/a-strange-kind-of-mercy-1.364417 http://imeu.org/article/lehava-state-sponsored-incitement
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Apr 22, 2015 20:14
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Kajeesus posted:As long as Israel takes deliberate steps to make Gaza unlivable and embargo things like seeds and construction materials, yes, Gaza is very much Israel's burden to provide for. If you imprison a man and let him starve to death, should he be blamed for not feeding himself? Those security policies exist as a means of protecting Israel from Palestinian and other arab terrorism and aggression. Those security measures will not go away until the perception within Israel is that of Palestinians and arabs unwilling to engage in terrorism. Any other argument is inconsequential; just, unjust, doesn't matter, as Israeli policy is that those security measures are essential in order to prevent continued arab and Palestinian suicide attacks against Israel. Any further attacks only serve to reinforce that Palestinians are disinterested in peace and loosening security controls will result in more dead Israelis and lost knesset seats. The only way to get those policies loosened, as you wish, is for Palestinians to actively renounce and organize against terrorism. The international community does not care about them, and will not sacrifice anything substantial for them. Palestinians are on their own, and the sooner they accept that they are being held accountable for actions taken in their name, the sooner they can organize against those actions.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:31
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Expecting Hamas to be able to successfully police Gaza whilst strangling their supply of goods and money with which to pay such peacekeepers is ridiculous. Admit it, nothing Palestinians do is enough to satisfy Israel. At every turn, the conditions are set for the Palestinians to fail to meet some arbitrary standard. Collective punishment campaigns follow shortly after: At peace? Oh, some of our settlers were kidnapped, better go on a mad razzia into the West Bank and kill a bunch of people and arrest hundreds more. A rocket fired at us? Eat 1000 tonnes of ordinance into your civilian infrastructure. Israel has a right to defend itself you know. Whoops, we just mortared 3 children playing on a beach. Hey, mistakes happen. Proportionality? Going after the people that attacked us? What kind of nonsense is that? No my boy, just kill them all, let God sort them out. *adjust pith hat, reload smoking Maxim gun*
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Apr 22, 2015 20:37
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murphyslaw posted:Expecting Hamas to be able to successfully police Gaza whilst strangling their supply of goods and money with which to pay such peacekeepers is ridiculous. They could finance their operations like every other governing institution: do the responsible thing and implement taxes combined with non-essential service cuts. Unfortunately, Hamas is not a rational actor, they are a demographic supremacist organization willing to implement only populist policy agendas.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:They could finance their operations like every other governing institution: do the responsible thing and implement taxes combined with non-essential service cuts. Unfortunately, Hamas is not a rational actor, they are a demographic supremacist organization willing to implement only populist policy agendas. Ok. Explain how, under the current situation they're living in, in what amounts to a crumbling post-apocalyptic poo poo hole, they will manage to do this. E: And granted, Hamas is certainly not an ideal political body to be romping around Gaza, but since you're the expert, why don't you outline which group could realistically wrest control from them and commit 100% to the standards of non-violent, anti-terrorist fervor acceptable to the state of Israel, that will not lead to simply trying to assassinate more police chiefs and killing their families instead. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 20:41
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murphyslaw posted:Ok. Explain how, under the current situation they're living in, in what amounts to a crumbling post-apocalyptic poo poo hole, they will manage to do this. By raising taxes on Gazans in order to finance internal security concerns. You don't need to pay for your own public TV and radio stations in order to police terrorism, you need to police terrorism and proactively jail and extradict terrorists. Non-violence against Israel. Use all the violence you deem necessary to prevent domestic populations from engaging in foreign terrorism.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:44
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And as long as those "security measures" are in place, Israel is responsible for the well-being of the people of Gaza. You can't shift the goalposts forever. E: As several posters have told you multiple times, Hamas was aggressively policing terrorism againsg Israel right up until the unprovoked air strikes during Brother's Keeper. It earned them zero concessions over several years of peace. You can't pretend to not know this. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 20:45
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