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Nerd Of Prey posted:Here's my answer to the whole situation: please try to submit this to the workshop, make it cost 
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Apr 24, 2015 12:23
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anatomi posted:No, they're not. Yeah, there are plenty of self-entitled modders, but you can still find a bunch of great compilations on Nexus. For Skyrim? Where?
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Apr 24, 2015 12:23
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nah its cool, when the summer sale comes around you can stock up on all the mods for real cheap.Bholder posted:For Skyrim? Where? well there is immersive armors.
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Apr 24, 2015 12:24
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Slugnoid posted:please try to submit this to the workshop, make it cost At this point, I'd just as soon keep my stuff off of there.
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Apr 24, 2015 12:39
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Police Automaton posted:Skyrim is a lovely and twodimensional game and no amount of modding is fixing it anyways. Yeah, this so what it boils down to. People will pay. The only hope is that in the long run it affects sales of TES6 and Fallout 4.
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Apr 24, 2015 12:41
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Man Whore posted:nah its cool, when the summer sale comes around you can stock up on all the mods for real cheap. 
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Apr 24, 2015 12:42
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JerikTelorian posted:Yeah, this so what it boils down to. People will pay. The only hope is that in the long run it affects sales of TES6 and Fallout 4. or that the modders get CYBERBULLIED so hard valve has to do something 
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Apr 24, 2015 12:45
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You do know that that only around 200 people bought these mods? Compared to the tens of thousands of visitors, this number is amazingly small. These are not selling well!
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Apr 24, 2015 12:58
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good thing nexus has a mod manager workshop was always wonky to me anyway, I'd subscribe to things and they wouldn't show up in data files until a few hours later
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Apr 24, 2015 13:03
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Trying to tack on this system to a four year old game with thousands of mods that all use parts of each other is going to work really well. If they had launched this with Fallout 4 or TES VI, then it could sort of work with one free and one paid system of mods.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:03
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JerikTelorian posted:Yeah, this so what it boils down to. People will pay. The only hope is that in the long run it affects sales of TES6 and Fallout 4. Of course, in the long term people will also pirate mods, that is an absolute given I think which doesn't even need to be discussed. I would not even be suprised if you could download some of the now sold mods already somewhere. I wonder if it's going to be like it was for copy-protected games, where they once reached a phase where it was a lot more effortless to download the pirated game than to try to get the DRM-bogged original version running. I also wonder if mod creators that pretty much expect people to fellate them at every step and don't take well to criticism realize that the people's attitudes will change when they paid for something that is not working or not working well or even not working as expected. Especially when you consider what a minefield of incompatibility mods traditionally are. I heard Valve offers no-questions-asked chargebacks for 24h on these mods, but only into the steam wallet. Not even considering mods that are often dependent on the framework laid down by other mods. How is that going to be resolved? Also what happens when a mod creator rips content of commercial games off and nobody really notices until months later? (I have seen this a lot with New Vegas on the Nexus) That would create a situation of Valve charging (and earning) money with the works of some other company. They remove the mod and then? Chargeback? Refund? Legal consequences for the Modder? What if it turns out the modder was some 12 year old who wasn't really allowed to use the platform to begin with? All the while Valve is cashing in on the work of the modders without having to really do anything for it. I never used the Workshop for Skyrim when it first came out because I always had a bad feeling about Valve centralizing access to everything so much. They should probably rename "the Workshop" to "the Sweatshop" though. (as 25% of all profits sounds like a really lousy deal for all the additional responsibility and butthurt you will have to deal with) That all being said there now probably is a legion of people starting work on big mods on their game of choice with the hope they will be the next modding mogul. We have seen this already with the "Indie"-developer bunch. Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 13:13
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Nerd Of Prey posted:At this point, I'd just as soon keep my stuff off of there. should make one that swaps the bags of gold for nickels and coins for dimes
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Apr 24, 2015 13:23
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I don't understand why people are pointing at the donation system on the nexus as a viable way for modders to receive money. Besides the big negative reaction that got when it started up, it has always been against the CK's terms of service until now to get any form of payment for mods. This is a good thing and the 25% cut for a purely digital product based on an IP the mod authors don't own is close to the market standard. This is fairly close to Kindle Worlds.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:37
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Emerson Cod posted:I don't understand why people are pointing at the donation system on the nexus as a viable way for modders to receive money. Besides the big negative reaction that got when it started up, it has always been against the CK's terms of service until now to get any form of payment for mods. The modder gets nothing until the mod makes $400. If the mod makes $399, Steam doesn't take 75%, they keep it all. Also voluntary donations =/= paying for mods.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:47
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Crosspost cuz this guy is better at explaining than me:AceSnyp3r posted:The thing that worries me most about this is Valve's policy appears to be one of "if it's a mod that's free, you can incorporate it into your paid mod" (see Chesko's comments). What that says to me is that if you want to maintain control over your mod, you're forced into monetizing it. If you don't, someone will just take your work, tweak it a little bit, and sell it anyway (kind of tempted to try this just to prove a point but don't wanna get banned). Hopefully Valve goes back on this and starts respecting the wishes of people who want to keep their mods free and unincorporated into paid mods, because this poo poo right here is what will really kill the modding community. Why bother putting any effort into tweaking one of your favorite games when some rear end in a top hat is just going to steal your work and sell it?
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Apr 24, 2015 13:52
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Emerson Cod posted:I don't understand why people are pointing at the donation system on the nexus as a viable way for modders to receive money. Besides the big negative reaction that got when it started up, it has always been against the CK's terms of service until now to get any form of payment for mods. I don't think anyone's saying the donation system at the Nexus is a viable way for modders to make money. They had to keep it out of the way for the same reason they banned links to patreon and other crowdfunding sites, because of fear of litigation from Bethesda. This really isn't a good thing for a variety of reasons besides "  I don't want to pay for mods" as described in the last couple pages of this thread. Nobody is going to make serious money off of this except for Valve and Bethesda and it's going to change the quality and quantity of mods made in the future in ways that are unclear at the moment but almost certainly not good for either veteran players who've used mods for years or new players who are just starting to experiment with mods under the new system.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:52
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razorrozar posted:Crosspost cuz this guy is better at explaining than me: This is a really good point, and I'm worried people might monetize just to protect their mods. I suppose they could monetize it on Steam, then offer it up for free on the Nexus, but that feels like a lovely workaround, and I'm no legal expert so I don't even know if that's how that works.
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Apr 24, 2015 13:55
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Emerson Cod posted:I don't understand why people are pointing at the donation system on the nexus as a viable way for modders to receive money. Besides the big negative reaction that got when it started up, it has always been against the CK's terms of service until now to get any form of payment for mods. There's two main components at work here. Firstly, mods are not thought of as things that you pay for. Mods have been almost exclusively free since the early days of modding. The switch from free mods to paid is an economic concept called "categorical shift" or "categorical error". This is different from thinking the price of an object is wrong (e.g., " This hamburger should cost $1, not $2"). NPR did a good Planet Money about this, called "The cost of free donuts". http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/13/156737801/the-cost-of-free-doughnuts-70-years-of-regret The second major part of this is that modding Skyrim often means having dozens or hundreds of mods. For many, this means an exorbitant price (2-3x the game release price or more). You're essentially destroying that style of play, which is very popular. JerikTelorian fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 13:59
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Also that thought you often have about games these days in order of "I guess they modders can fix that eventually so no biggie" will now always have the "but at what cost?" attached. Would anyone still play Skyrim if it wasn't moddable? I have my doubts. There are quite a few games that had their lifetime (and sales) extended by heavy modding, if this becomes prohibitively expensive people just might not bother with the game anymore and move on. It's not like there's a shortage of games to play. The question is if this really will impact sales on an older game or if nickeling and diming of the people still stuck with it will make more money. I wonder if we will see easily moddable game "platforms" with lots of graphics assets and other practical additions that are free to download but will produce their money through paid for mods. Remember second life? One good thing came from this though, I was about to have my yearly reinstall of Skyrim to see what modders have produced only to get bored after a few days of downloading mods in my sparse free time. I guess I'll skip that now. So, thanks valve! 
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Apr 24, 2015 14:17
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Folks may underestimate the traction of the initial sales, at least. It's displayed how many folks tee'd into the mods, so you can ballpark at least a minimum yield and possibly an average too if you're feeling froggy. Arissa has 154 subscribers with a price floor of $2.99 -- so out the gate it has at -least- hit $460 in less than 24 hours; the default suggested price is $4.99 also and given there's a non-zero contingent of participants who are aiming to demonstrate their support of the program it's probably reasonable to pitch that Arissa's sold $500 in the first 24 hours. So, we hit the Top Sellers tab, which Steam basically ranks on total gross sales figures in its various facets; here, Arissa's currently in 6th place. At the top is the Shadow Scale set with 568 subscribers and a price floor of $.99--so minimally, $562 in the first 24 hours. Default price here is $1.99 so ball-parking $600 - $625 seems fairly reasonable. But wait--Purity is second place with 309 subscribers and a price floor of $2.99 for $924; that means that Shadow Scale has at -least- matched that, if not exceeded it. Midas is third with 183 subscribers and a $2.99 floor for $547 minimum. Gifts of Akatosh is fourth with 446 subscribers at a $1.49 floor for $665, so Midas must have made at least that. Bringing us to Wet and Cold in fifth place--206 subscribers, floor of $.99 cents--which would at least be $204--except that it's sold more than Arissa's minimal $460 at the very least. Firelink improvements has 191 subscribers at $.99 minimum or $189, Shezrie's Bleakden has 159 subscribers at a $1.99 minimum for $316--which thus means Firelink made more than that and so on and so on. So even just looking at the top ten best sellers by themselves, you're still pretty safe in figuring on at -least- $4750 in sales in the first 24 hours. As anything that's likely going to taper off and shift--but there are a lot of people still playing Skyrim on the regular and a not insignificant number of them rely on the Steam workshop for their mods.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:23
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There's a lot more to be pissed off about when grabbing mods than knitting stuff for Etsy. How are large updates handled? What if someone makes a mod, and it undergoes a major update, and the modder releases it as a new mod under a new name, like EnaiSailon has done for a few of his mods (for free of course, but the updates were save-breaking)? How big of an update can it be before the author deems is to be a new mod entirely? Who wants to pay to stare at TESxEdit, LOOT, MO, SkyProccer, and Wrye Bash for a half hour to get a mod to work? Also, I think it's fair to say that donations aren't a good alternative to being paid, but makes more sense given the nature of Bethesda modding. People should be upset about this, especially since Valve is putting out some ridiculous opinions on using other mods in the work, donations, and the level of customer service people can expect. But it looks like it's going to be up to the consumer to make this fail and I really don't see that happening. If a large percentage of modders commit to making free mods and websites continue to host those mods, then the effects will probably be minimal. If the Workshop had kept it's rules about uploads, (.bsa and .esp only, 100 MB limit, no external dependencies) this would have gone over much more smoothly (but made less money). Alasyre fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 14:26
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I can remember when Steam came up with Half Life 2 and people were pissed because they thought it is insane to register your game online or to not physically own the game you bought. People vowed to never use Steam. We can all see how well that worked. They will roll over for this poo poo too and slug all their complaints out with the mod creators who will have all the work for a pittance. That being said, some will probably also make a tidy amount of money. I guess Valve just created a new industry, wherever we like it or not. To be fair, modding with the whole community thought behind it has already been dead for a while, since all these ultraspergs like arthmoor got into it. Now they will get money instead of likes and some of them will maybe even make a job of it. That's modern gaming for you.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:38
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I know it's a crazy idea but, listen: How about NOT buying mods? Crazy I know, insane even. It gets better: How about downloading only FREE mods? oh right, they will disappear completely, silly me. Might as well unistall every Elder Scrolls game now
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Apr 24, 2015 14:42
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As some others have said, a part of why donations for Skyrim modding have never been a big source of income is because they were never allowed to be. Nexus was very cagey about modders taking donations because they wanted to avoid legal trouble. So you couldn't set up a Patreon or even just advertise your Paypal account. Yes, a good part of it is people being stingy. But that's not the whole story, and it doesn't change the fact that the current rules Valve has put forth screw over the mod maker and the mod user both. If you've ever gone to Nexus, you've probably seen either people ranting about how a mod broke their game, or how they don't want to deal with people ranting about how the mod they created broke someone's game. How is this going to play out now that actual money's involved, but with no more QA than before?
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Apr 24, 2015 14:44
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Bholder posted:I know it's a crazy idea but, listen: Even free mods are affected by this. The type of mods that get made in the future are going to change. We don't know exactly how it's going to change, but it seems likely that, for one thing, disputes over ownership are going to kill all the big collaborative mods and modpacks. So many big mods today use resources from other mods (with permission), but in the future, modders are going to have a harder time getting permission to use others' resources because people are going to be more careful about how they allow their mods to be used. Valve and Bethesda don't give a poo poo about paid mods using content from free mods without compensating the creator. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. This isn't just a "I don't want to spend money" thing, introducing money into the equation is going to change the way nearly all mods are made in the future. This also really doesn't bode well for future Bethesda titles and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the next TES game is going to have some licensing thing that further increases the control Bethesda has over mods and that'll stifle modders even more.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:50
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Apr 24, 2015 14:53
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Pakled posted:This also really doesn't bode well for future Bethesda titles and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the next TES game is going to have some licensing thing that further increases the control Bethesda has over mods and that'll stifle modders even more. It's not even Bethesda titles, it's every game supporting the Workshop on steam (eventually). This will have big implications. A bizarre conclusion of all this is also that game companies now can passively make income by making their game moddable and leaving stuff out for the players to fill in.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:55
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So, I have a practical question about this that I haven't found an answer to - what happens if you have previously subscribed to a mod that goes pay-to-play? Skyforge Weapons/Shields is now a paid mod, for example. What happens to my subscription?
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Apr 24, 2015 15:03
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Emerald Rogue posted:So, I have a practical question about this that I haven't found an answer to - what happens if you have previously subscribed to a mod that goes pay-to-play? Skyforge Weapons/Shields is now a paid mod, for example. What happens to my subscription? The paid mods are new, separate entries on the workshop--so it mostly comes down to what a modder elects to do with the version you're currently subscribed to. They can (and a few are) simply discontinue support and leave them at older versions, they can (and some have) remove the entries for those older mods--but iirc if you've already downloaded something as part of a subscription and it is removed that does not inherently delete it from your PC, but I'm not 100% on that.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:07
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Emerald Rogue posted:So, I have a practical question about this that I haven't found an answer to - what happens if you have previously subscribed to a mod that goes pay-to-play? Skyforge Weapons/Shields is now a paid mod, for example. What happens to my subscription? The paid subscriptions are a separate workshop entry. Although it's possible to brick their free uploads since updates are out of the user's control to stop.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:08
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Hobo Siege posted:El Generico is absolutely right, in all honesty. Jesus Christ, no, don't do this. Valve is a literal saint compared to its competitors. That's the whole problem, they can push this poo poo through as much as they want because there's no real alternative. No matter how terrible Steam gets, Origin was worse from the start. quote:In light of that, and what it could mean for our servers here, I've decided to cancel a long-weekend holiday I've had booked for the past 4 months with 30 other people, a reunion type thing, in Spain. I can't be sunning up by the pool fixing/tweaking servers on an 11 inch laptop via SSH with slightly dodgy Spanish hotel internet (no offence, Spain!) while trying to keep you all informed as to what's happening. Go to Spain. Cup Runneth Over fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 15:09
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Yeah, if the offer of a profit stream leads paid mods to dominate, I think I'm done with modding. It's not a question of expense, I just can't be bothered with the stress of paying for and returning things I usually download ten at a time on a whim. And relying on second rate freebies knowing I'm not really using the mods I want doesn't appeal either.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:09
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Get this fox news bullshit out of here. Did you not notice that these are "under review?" Do you really think "I am Rich" is going to be allowed to go on sale for $99.99? Do you think the obvious troll mods are going to be allowed to go on sale? 
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Apr 24, 2015 15:11
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nacon posted:Get this fox news bullshit out of here. Did you not notice that these are "under review?" Do you really think "I am Rich" is going to be allowed to go on sale for $99.99? Do you think the obvious troll mods are going to be allowed to go on sale? I think their point was "this is funny" rather than "I'm outraged they're selling mods like this."
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Apr 24, 2015 15:13
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Pakled posted:I think their point was "this is funny" rather than "I'm outraged they're selling mods like this." This/screenshots like it have been floating around on various forums as "OMG they're selling this! Everything you feared is true!" Without context, it can be misleading. The premium golden potato is funny, though.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:14
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Give me Immersive Sweetroll or give me death. 
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Apr 24, 2015 15:20
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What's gonna happen to Immersive Laundry 
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Apr 24, 2015 15:25
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Scyantific posted:What's gonna happen to Immersive Laundry Here's the author's response. Good work, Nerd of Prey; endorsed++. Alasyre fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 15:31
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Squeegy posted:Jesus Christ, no, don't do this. Valve is a literal saint compared to its competitors. That's the whole problem, they can push this poo poo through as much as they want because there's no real alternative. No matter how terrible Steam gets, Origin was worse from the start. It should be noted that most of the complaints should be directed at Bethesda. Valve is mostly the middleman here.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:42
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Just updated my computer to be a 4k grinding beast and went to dust off my Skyrim backup. Looks like I hosed something up in the backup and it missed a few mods and maybe files. Guess there's no better time to rebuild because this whole paid mod thing is going to be a deep, deep rabbit hole of retards!
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Apr 24, 2015 15:47
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