I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Heavy neutrino posted:

That's cool and all but let's swing back to the refugees who got blown up as they took shelter in UN refuges some 50 years later.

If the UN cannot, or, worse, wll not secure their grounds in order to avoid facilitating terrorism, then the UN should not be operating in a given conflict zone, as their operations will only provoke further terrorism by providing a PR point for terrorists and their sponsors.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 02:36

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:35

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

MIGF, does UNRWA have any sort of combat capacity?

If not, why doesn't it?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 02:40

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Heavy neutrino posted:

MIGF, does UNRWA have any sort of combat capacity?

If not, why doesn't it?

1. Did the UN operations in the region have a combat capacity at a previous point?

2. Did that combat capacity ever move out of the way of arab armies so that they could "drive the jew into the sea"?

I already addressed this two posts ago, yet your myopia on 'Israel=Bad!' prevents you from seeing clearly the historical development of the current conflict.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 02:44

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

My Imaginary GF posted:

1. Did the UN operations in the region have a combat capacity at a previous point?

2. Did that combat capacity ever move out of the way of arab armies so that they could "drive the jew into the sea"?

I already addressed this two posts ago, yet your myopia on 'Israel=Bad!' prevents you from seeing clearly the historical development of the current conflict.

Why did you start posting at this point if you had no intention of talking about 2014?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 03:00

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

My Imaginary GF posted:

1. Did the UN operations in the region have a combat capacity at a previous point?

2. Did that combat capacity ever move out of the way of arab armies so that they could "drive the jew into the sea"?

I already addressed this two posts ago, yet your myopia on 'Israel=Bad!' prevents you from seeing clearly the historical development of the current conflict.

Honestly there's only one jewish state that matters and it's not Israel. America is the only country that matters. All other countries are enemies or subjects. It's the greatest country, greatest jewish state.

But our state is in crisis, and it will only be when we take a stand for ourselves, ridding ourselves of a corrupt, foreign-dominated congress then America will take its rightful place.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 03:00

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The Insect Court posted:

Is this some sort of weird example of projection? Do I need to point out to you that Hamas intentionally targets Israeli civilians, since unlike many of its Western useful idiots it doesn't pretend to have moral scruples about killing civilians.

And while I may be naive to expect a substantive response, I feel I really must point out that the posters in this(and previous) I/P threads supporting the targeting of civilians have been anti-Zionists.

The posters supporting attacking civilians have overwhelmingly been might makes right Israeli supporters. Israel targets Palestinian civilians intentionally too. If it's OK to level an apartment building to kill a militant its OK to blow yourself in middle of civilians to kill a soldier. You can't say that one side can do it but another can't without being a gaping hypocrite.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 09:23

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

DarkCrawler posted:

The posters supporting attacking civilians have overwhelmingly been might makes right Israeli supporters. Israel targets Palestinian civilians intentionally too. If it's OK to level an apartment building to kill a militant its OK to blow yourself in middle of civilians to kill a soldier. You can't say that one side can do it but another can't without being a gaping hypocrite.

Might doesn't make right; it helps to enforce right. There aren't any other stable democracies in the mideast, so best defend our friends as a bulwark against stateless actors.

States have more rights than individuals and nonstate actors. Individuals have the responsibility to not facilitate terrorism; when they fail to do so, might enforces that responsibility for them.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 09:55

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

My Imaginary GF posted:

Might doesn't make right; it helps to enforce right. There aren't any other stable democracies in the mideast, so best defend our friends as a bulwark against stateless actors.

States have more rights than individuals and nonstate actors. Individuals have the responsibility to not facilitate terrorism; when they fail to do so, might enforces that responsibility for them.

Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid colonialist state with a racial underclass and unrepresented subjects. It has no justification for its actions.

Post invalid as a consequence of that fact.

Intentionally attacking unarmed civilians is wrong for all states, all individuals.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Apr 29, 2015

# ? Apr 29, 2015 10:59

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

The Insect Court posted:

Is this some sort of weird example of projection? Do I need to point out to you that Hamas intentionally targets Israeli civilians, since unlike many of its Western useful idiots it doesn't pretend to have moral scruples about killing civilians.

Are you just pretending Israel does not target civilians with a much greater rate of success? You still haven't told me how destroying water treatment and electrical facilities is defensible military action, by the way.

My Imaginary GF posted:

States have more rights than individuals and nonstate actors. Individuals have the responsibility to not facilitate terrorism; when they fail to do so, might enforces that responsibility for them.

This doesn't make any sense. Why do states have more rights but fewer responsibilites? Israel engages in much more severe terrorism than any Gazan individual, but hey it's all cool because Israel is a state?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 11:13

The Sin of Onan: Oct 11, 2012; And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt

Jesus Christ. How long does this conversation have to go on? I started following this thread because it was interesting and informative, not to watch MIGF and pals constantly rehashing bullshit nonsense arguments. Can you guys just put them all on your ignore list and go back to having a decent conversation? It should be obvious by now there's no reasoning with them and they're plainly not arguing in good faith.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 12:21

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

My Imaginary GF posted:

The 44 deaths were the fault of Hamas, and the UN's policy of appeasement. Remember the last time the UN had a policy of neutrality while selling itself as the guaranteer of peace, until arab forces told the UN to get out of the way so they could invade Israel, and UN forces refused to adhere to their mission and take a stand, thereby getting out of the way for arab armies to invade Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea"?

Because Israelis remember. So, too, do Americans interested in American engagement with the mideast's only democracy.

You should be thanking them for staying out of it. If they were honestly working to keep the peace and intervene against violence, they probably would have intervened to stop the Zionist revolution and ethnic cleansing campaign in Mandatory Palestine. That would have put quite the damper on Israel's unilateral move for independence, and having to send a UN force to put a stop to Zionist atrocities probably would have put an end to world support for a Jewish state.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 17:16

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

The Sin of Onan posted:

Jesus Christ. How long does this conversation have to go on? I started following this thread because it was interesting and informative, not to watch MIGF and pals constantly rehashing bullshit nonsense arguments. Can you guys just put them all on your ignore list and go back to having a decent conversation? It should be obvious by now there's no reasoning with them and they're plainly not arguing in good faith.

Honestly what other conversation is there at the moment? Israel hasn't been killing Palestinians for a couple of months now.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 17:35

Miltank: Dec 27, 2009; by XyloJW

The cornerstone of MIGF's pro-Israel argument is the distinction between Israel's status as a state actor compared to Hamas as a non-state. This is the hidden core of the contemporary secular defense of Israel's actions, and yet it falls apart at the slightest prodding.

Israel simultaneously elevates the state as the only legitimate means of organized action, and denies the Palestinians of state representation.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 17:59

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Genocide is okay as long as:

1. You are a recognized country
2. You are winning a war
3. Your allies are too pathetic to call you out on it

# ? Apr 29, 2015 18:24

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

Honestly what other conversation is there at the moment? Israel hasn't been killing Palestinians for a couple of months now.

Even if bombs aren't actively falling, Palestinians in Gaza are dying every day, and all of the survivors endure tremendous suffering. There's plenty of blame to go around - Israel for the blockades and bombings, the new Egyptian government for seriously stepping up the blockade and anti-Hamas actions, the PA for refusing to pay Gazan workers, Hamas for raising taxes, unknown Palestinian factions for the recent spate of bombings and other terrorist attacks in Gaza, and the failure of the international community to provide badly-needed humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, no matter who we decide is most to blame for this misery, it won't help Gazans. Whether you wish to pin all the blame on Israel or Hamas or the PA or someone else entirely, it won't end the tragedy that basically everyone is allowing to continue. No matter what, and no matter who, humanitarian aid is needed. By all accounts, Israel has loosened the blockade to let in reconstruction aid; the bottleneck now is that there is no more aid to bring in.

http://www.ifrc.org/en/news-and-med...conflict-68508/

quote:

Life will never be the same for children wounded during Gaza’s latest conflict

More than 500 children were killed during the latest round of violence in the Gaza Strip, but the Palestine Red Crescent Society managed to save many young lives throughout the conflict and continues to assist children still suffering from physical harm caused by rocket fire. Although these children will never be able to live a normal life, the National Society’s assistance makes their lives more bearable.

At the Palestine Red Crescent Society’s Al Amal Hospital in Gaza’s Khan Younis, doctors are doing what they can to rehabilitate the children who, more than six months after the conflict, are still hospitalised.

Four-year-old Ameen El Mahmoun was wounded in an explosion on 1 August 2014. A shrapnel caused a complete cut to his spinal cord. His lower body has become paralysed. After Ameen was wounded, he was treated at the Al Amal Hospital, but due to his severe condition he was later transferred to a hospital in Turkey. Now he is back at Al Amal after going under treatment for four months in Turkey.

“He will be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life,” says Dr Tareq El Hefny, who is the Head of the Rehabilitation Department at Al Amal Hospital. Dr El Hefny explains that Ameen has been very depressed, but that he has now started talking.

“We are teaching him how to use the wheelchair and how to move from the bed to the wheelchair. Later we will teach him how to empty the catheters as he cannot control neither urination nor stools. We try to train him to live with the disability,” explains Dr El Hefny.

At the hospital Ameen is also taught how to train his arms to properly handle the wheelchair, and both the child and his family are getting psychological support from the Palestinian National Society.

In the same ward of the hospital, but in a different room, lies six-year-old Muhammed Abu Haddaf. Muhammed’s head and body were hit by several shrapnels on 8 August 2014. When he was rescued from under the rubble, he was still conscious, but after a while he fell into a coma from which he has not recovered yet.

Like Ameen, Muhammed was transferred for treatment in Turkey where the doctors gave up on operating on him although he suffered several injuries in his head, chest and abdomen.

His eyes wide open, Muhammed doesn’t seem to know where he is or what has happened to him. His father Saleh Ayesh holds his hand and plays Muhammed’s favourite music which brings occasional smiles on the kid’s face.

“We don’t know whether he will ever recover from the coma and we can see that when in physiotherapy, he is in severe pain but we can’t talk to him. We have started a comprehensive rehabilitation programme to aid both the child and his family with psychosocial support and physiotherapy,” says Dr El Hefny.

As for eight-year-old Besan Daher, she wouldn’t have been alive had it not been for Alaa Abu Sheera.

Alaa Abu Sheera has been a Palestine Red Crescent Society volunteer for six years and has been active on the ground through all the latest three armed conflicts in Gaza.

“I spent two hours digging to rescue Besan. She spent a total of 10 hours under the rubble, after her house was destroyed and her entire family of eight was killed,” says Alaa Abu Sheera.

Besan, who has a huge scar on her face where a shrapnel hit her, now lives with her uncle, his wife and their five children.

“I stay there because my entire family was killed. My mother was reading the Koran aloud when we were attacked. I don’t know why we were attacked, but I remember somebody moving stones away from my body and taking me to the hospital. I felt like an orphan,” says Besan, who aspires to become an English teacher.

Why?

“Because I am good in English and because I would like to talk to foreigners and tell my story,” says Besan.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 21:02

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

Genocide is okay as long as:

1. You are a recognized country
2. You are winning a war
3. Your allies are too pathetic to call you out on it

What next, are you going to claim America genocided Japan during WW2?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 21:30

Miltank: Dec 27, 2009; by XyloJW

We gave the Japanese their own sovereign state back after the occupation.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:06

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Miltank posted:

We gave the Japanese their own sovereign state back after the occupation.

Jews were given their own sovereign state back after the British occupation.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:23

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

migf would you say that all jews owe allegiance in some sense to israel

e. and if so, why

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:25

Miltank: Dec 27, 2009; by XyloJW

PAy it forward, Israel.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:26

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

V. Illych L. posted:

migf would you say that all jews owe allegiance in some sense to israel

e. and if so, why

Israel is the eternal homeland of the jewish people, to guarantee that "Never again" means never again.

Concepts of fealty, while they may be popular in areas of the region without democratic institutions of governance, do not apply blankly to the Jewish ethnic group.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:29

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

is this a yes or a no 'cos i'm sort of getting a 'both' vibe from you here

my follow-up would be: would you say that antizionist jews are somehow being unpatriotic or bad jews?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:32

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

V. Illych L. posted:

is this a yes or a no 'cos i'm sort of getting a 'both' vibe from you here

my follow-up would be: would you say that antizionist jews are somehow being unpatriotic or bad jews?

Ask a question to two rebbis, receive three opinions.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:33

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

you aren't even one rabbi, though, so you should be able to get me an answer to a yes/no question

is there anything in my question you feel is ambiguously phrased, perhaps?

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:37

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

V. Illych L. posted:

you aren't even one rabbi, though, so you should be able to get me an answer to a yes/no question

is there anything in my question you feel is ambiguously phrased, perhaps?

Individuals are entitled to their own means to pursue happiness, within limits. For millions of Americans, the continued democratic existance of Israel is essential for their pursuit of happiness.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:39

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

this has nothing to do with the question i asked you at all, though

i don't understand why it is so difficult for you to answer this, it's a pretty straightforward question imo. of course, you are colossally ignorant, so it may well be different for you

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:41

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

V. Illych L. posted:

this has nothing to do with the question i asked you at all, though

i don't understand why it is so difficult for you to answer this, it's a pretty straightforward question imo. of course, you are colossally ignorant, so it may well be different for you

Israelis owe Israel their allegiance. Not all jews are Israelis, although Jewish Israelis do owe Israel allegiance to the Israeli constitution.

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:43

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

ok so it's not a betrayal in any way when jews in e.g. the uk participate in pro-palestine demos and stuff?

not misguided/wrong or whatever, it's just not a betrayal in your view

# ? Apr 29, 2015 22:48

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

The Sin of Onan posted:

Jesus Christ. How long does this conversation have to go on? I started following this thread because it was interesting and informative, not to watch MIGF and pals constantly rehashing bullshit nonsense arguments. Can you guys just put them all on your ignore list and go back to having a decent conversation? It should be obvious by now there's no reasoning with them and they're plainly not arguing in good faith.

Would you please do this everyone.

Jagchosis; would you please add links to MAPS/UNRWA/whatever other pro-palestinian israeli NGO's or legit charities people can donate to the op?

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:07

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3457376/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

That's a good movie.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:09

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

My Imaginary GF posted:

What next, are you going to claim America genocided Japan during WW2?

We did round them up in camps and ruin their lives. A couple more years and who knows how they would've ended up if the war hadn't ended.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:11

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Ultramega posted:

Would you please do this everyone.

Jagchosis; would you please add links to MAPS/UNRWA/whatever other pro-palestinian israeli NGO's or legit charities people can donate to the op?

Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:24

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

My Imaginary GF posted:

What next, are you going to claim America genocided Japan during WW2?

What the hell kind of deflection is that? What is wrong with your brain?

My Imaginary GF posted:

Israelis owe Israel their allegiance. Not all jews are Israelis, although Jewish Israelis do owe Israel allegiance to the Israeli constitution.

Israel doesn't have a constitution, nor a basic law that guarantees human rights. Torture is literally legal in Israel, as long as it's done to Palestinians. You know this.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:39

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

Main Paineframe posted:

Even if bombs aren't actively falling, Palestinians in Gaza are dying every day, and all of the survivors endure tremendous suffering. There's plenty of blame to go around - Israel for the blockades and bombings, the new Egyptian government for seriously stepping up the blockade and anti-Hamas actions, the PA for refusing to pay Gazan workers, Hamas for raising taxes, unknown Palestinian factions for the recent spate of bombings and other terrorist attacks in Gaza, and the failure of the international community to provide badly-needed humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, no matter who we decide is most to blame for this misery, it won't help Gazans. Whether you wish to pin all the blame on Israel or Hamas or the PA or someone else entirely, it won't end the tragedy that basically everyone is allowing to continue. No matter what, and no matter who, humanitarian aid is needed. By all accounts, Israel has loosened the blockade to let in reconstruction aid; the bottleneck now is that there is no more aid to bring in.

http://www.ifrc.org/en/news-and-med...conflict-68508/

What if the world is withholding aid because they see it as futile? Hamas indeed keeps the other factions at bay for the most part, but they also periodically ignite the conflict when they need to improve their poll numbers. Cynically killing thousands as a result.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 01:50

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

http://www.map-uk.org/

http://www.unrwa.org/

# ? Apr 30, 2015 05:29

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Kajeesus posted:

What the hell kind of deflection is that? What is wrong with your brain?

Have you really not figured out that he's fakeposting the most frank, callous, and honest version of Kissinger-style realpolitik ever? This whole "morality doesn't apply to state actors (as long as their actions are in accord with the goals of the 1970s US State Department)" hasn't tipped you off?

I mean, if arguing with him is fun for you, have at it. But don't fret too much about not being able to change his mind or have a reasonable exchange of points with an intentional gimmick.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 05:50

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

The Sin of Onan posted:

Jesus Christ. How long does this conversation have to go on? I started following this thread because it was interesting and informative, not to watch MIGF and pals constantly rehashing bullshit nonsense arguments. Can you guys just put them all on your ignore list and go back to having a decent conversation? It should be obvious by now there's no reasoning with them and they're plainly not arguing in good faith.

your username + this post = comedy gold good sir

DarkCrawler posted:

The posters supporting attacking civilians have overwhelmingly been might makes right Israeli supporters. Israel targets Palestinian civilians intentionally too. If it's OK to level an apartment building to kill a militant its OK to blow yourself in middle of civilians to kill a soldier. You can't say that one side can do it but another can't without being a gaping hypocrite.

That's clearly not true, and I would think you know better. Whatever MIGF is, he doesn't classify as "posters".

Must I really go dig up the posts arguing that every single Israeli Jew in the West Bank was fair game? Which of course contrasts with more moderate positions where they've got to at least be tweens before their murder becomes a heroic act of resistance.

Or are you going to fall back to sophistry about how no Israeli is truly a civilian because of compulsory military service?

# ? Apr 30, 2015 06:14

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

just post them you patronizing rear end in a top hat.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 06:24

murphyslaw: Feb 16, 2007; It never fails

Remember also that we ate Tezzor so you can't hold him up as an exemplar of the tread's antisemitic vitriol. I am sure you will do just fine regardless!

# ? Apr 30, 2015 06:31

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:35

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The Insect Court posted:

your username + this post = comedy gold good sir

That's clearly not true, and I would think you know better. Whatever MIGF is, he doesn't classify as "posters".

Must I really go dig up the posts arguing that every single Israeli Jew in the West Bank was fair game? Which of course contrasts with more moderate positions where they've got to at least be tweens before their murder becomes a heroic act of resistance.

Or are you going to fall back to sophistry about how no Israeli is truly a civilian because of compulsory military service?

Do so. See how many people you find.

I'm not arguing anything else then that if you judge Hamas' killings of civilians you're a hypocritical piece of poo poo to support Israel's.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 08:05

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