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DarkCrawler posted:Do so. See how many people you find. Sixty seconds skimming the earlier pages of the previous I/P thread(the very first post in, btw, was one of yours casting doubt on the idea that Hamas was responsible for the murder of a pair of teenagers): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3647023&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post431599465 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3647023&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post431650563 There are countless more that you could find if you have an honest interest in doing so. Of course, if you're going to refuse to acknowledge evidence that fails to fit your biases then you'll ignore those as well, but I figured I'd get you started with a couple.
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Apr 30, 2015 08:43
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Ultramega posted:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3457376/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 Kajeesus posted:Israel doesn't have a constitution, quote:nor a basic law that guarantees human rights. quote:Torture is literally legal in Israel, as long as it's done to Palestinians. murphyslaw posted:Remember also that we ate Tezzor
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Apr 30, 2015 09:33
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The Insect Court posted:Sixty seconds skimming the earlier pages of the previous I/P thread(the very first post in, btw, was one of yours casting doubt on the idea that Hamas was responsible for the murder of a pair of teenagers): Good job dodging his question and instead bringing up other people's opinions on the subject. What is this trying to prove? DarkCrawler posted:Do so. See how many people you find. You can be a pompous rear end in a top hat as much as you'd like to, Insect Court, but your lame attempts at trying to change the topic are pretty transparent.
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Apr 30, 2015 09:57
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Insert Golda Meir quotation here: 'we can forgive the Palestinians for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children.' IMO that bullshit attitude appears to be shared by a lot of the posters ITT.
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Apr 30, 2015 10:28
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Israeli soldiers being prosecuted in Israel for stealing over 2400NIS from Palestinian homes in sajaiya, in addition to various personal items. The soldiers claim they weren't briefed on not stealing from the population because they were taking a dump during the briefing. They have all been stripped of their duties in the I'm and will now be painting sidewalks and trimming bushes until their service is done. 2 people stole the money (apparently ) but the whole company was going to assume responsibility for it and lied to their commanding officers and internal affairs before one of them confessed. His friends called him an idiot for confessing. Apparently they were going to use the money for a night out for the company. Source is ynet for those of you who can read Hebrew. http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4652229,00.html Miftan fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 11:49
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VitalSigns posted:Have you really not figured out that he's fakeposting the most frank, callous, and honest version of Kissinger-style realpolitik ever? This whole "morality doesn't apply to state actors (as long as their actions are in accord with the goals of the 1970s US State Department)" hasn't tipped you off? Sorry, that one just took me by surprise. Most of his posts make perfect sense if your endgoal is the genocide of all Muslims, and derive your values from there, but clearly I'm missing the component of America never wrong. The Insect Court posted:Sixty seconds skimming the earlier pages of the previous I/P thread(the very first post in, btw, was one of yours casting doubt on the idea that Hamas was responsible for the murder of a pair of teenagers): As long as you maintain the position that collective punishment is fair game, you're gonna have to find some much worse posts than those. At the very least, find a goon who is happy about the death of a civilian. Xander77 posted:True. Well, okay, it has a Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty, but torture is still legal. You can take it as you will.
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Apr 30, 2015 12:15
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Miftan posted:Israeli soldiers being prosecuted in Israel for stealing over 2400NIS from Palestinian homes in sajaiya, in addition to various personal items. The soldiers claim they weren't briefed on not stealing from the population because they were taking a dump during the briefing. They have all been stripped of their duties in the I'm and will now be painting sidewalks and trimming bushes until their service is done. I'm glad that these two are getting prosecuted and demoted, but I doubt there's only two of them and also lol at the most moral army needing to be briefed about not looting.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:37
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Kajeesus posted:Well, okay, it has a Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty, but torture is still legal. You can take it as you will. And a key part of the current coalition negotiations is the Likud and Jewish Home demand that the same Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty be overridden when convenient (because the Supreme Court keeps using it to overturn racist legislation like the Jewish nation-state bills). http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/194654#.VUJX0CFVhBc quote:During the meeting, Netanyahu informed Galon that he intended to promote the Supersession Clause bill proposed by MK Ayelet Shaked in the previous Knesset, and demanded by her Jewish Home party as condition of it joining a coalition.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:31
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DarkCrawler posted:The posters supporting attacking civilians have overwhelmingly been might makes right Israeli supporters. Israel targets Palestinian civilians intentionally too. If it's OK to level an apartment building to kill a militant its OK to blow yourself in middle of civilians to kill a soldier. You can't say that one side can do it but another can't without being a gaping hypocrite.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except that Hamas has pretty much always been up front about the fact that it deliberately targets civilians. Civilian casualties are their goal, not an unfortunate side effect. From two pages back: Chomskyan posted:This isn't actually true though. In fact, there was an interview with the leader of Hamas on Al Jazeera during the last major Israeli attack on Gaza. He basically said that Hamas doesn't target civilians, it's just that the Israeli's embed themselves among the civilian population. Notice that this is exactly the same logic that the Israeli government uses to justify bombing schools and whatnot.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:23
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Actually, Free Palestine is their goal.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:23
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Alien Arcana posted:From two pages back: Israel is a state actor. Hamas is not. Therefore it is not the same logic; the same logic would be Likud using Ben Gurian to launch Likud-flagged strikes against Gaza for Likudian goals. Miltank posted:Actually, Free Palestine is their goal. From what, all international responsibilities, such as 'do not attack foreign nations and expect no response'?
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Apr 30, 2015 20:29
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For what it's worth, you'd have to be a bit of a sucker to believe the crocodile tears the Israeli government or military weeps for "unintended" civilian casualties. They seem mostly upset because it looks bad on camera, not because they value Palestinian lives - hence the rhetoric that comes out every time an Israeli campaign gets started that all these dead civilians are some kind of Hamas weapon being used against Israel, and the talk that the IDF's duty is to protecting Israeli citizens first and if that means Palestinians are "unfortunately" caught in the cross fire, welp. And even if it's not admitted to, various policies meant to put the squeeze on Gaza and the West Bank's populations as collective punishment are effectively targeting civilians. Ideologically, that's still better than explicitly declaring your intent is to kill civilians, since if you're publicly committed to the idea of avoiding civilian casualties then that stance can be used against you in negotiation. It's like how the two state solution was basically dead but the Israeli government still paid lip service to it, meaning Israel could be pressured by talking about how their actions were harming a two-state solution. It's why Netanyahu dropping the two-state solution publicly was such a big deal, if they don't have to maintain the charade, one of the main negotiation tools is lost. In practice though, Israel's official policy of civilian casualties being "unfortunate" still kills a lot more innocent people than Hamas's retaliatory violence, so if you're trying to stem the bloodshed that's still the larger source of it.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:30
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except that Hamas has pretty much always been up front about the fact that it deliberately targets civilians. Civilian casualties are their goal, not an unfortunate side effect. You say that as though there were no elements of the IDF who have never willingly targetted civilians or civil projects. Just a page or so ago someone posted a link about how a girl's school got shelled by artillery and there was also the special needs orphanage that got targetted right at the beginning of protective edge. Israel's reaction to these accusations always follows a pattern familiar to anyone who's followed it for a decent length of time; they'll claim there were militants operating within civilian confines such as a hospital, a home for kids who can't wipe their own asses, etc. They will claim they have a right to self-defense and simultaneously deny this for their victims. It's as if the IDF can get away with genocide and apartheid so long as they have a good alibi and their grandparents were killed in the holocaust.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:31
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Jagchosis posted:
This offer still stands btw, I/P crew My Imaginary GF posted:Israel is a state actor. Hamas is not. Therefore it is not the same logic; the same logic would be Likud using Ben Gurian to launch Likud-flagged strikes against Gaza for Likudian goals. State actors aren't allowed to intentionally target civilians for no legitimate military purpose either
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Apr 30, 2015 20:33
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Chomskyan posted:One specific example that was brought up was Ben Gurion airport, which the Israelis used to stage much of their bombing on Gaza.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:36
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There's also the small matter of prominent rabbis exhorting IDF soldiers that it's religiously permissible to kill non-Jewish babies.quote:Lior's enthusiasm for Shapira's tract stems from his own eliminationist attitude toward non-Jews. For example, while Lior served as the IDF's top rabbi, he instructed soldiers: "There is no such thing as civilians in wartime… A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail!" Indeed, there are only a few non-Jews whose lives Lior would demand to be spared. They are captured Palestinian militants who, as he once suggested, could be used as subjects for live human medical experiments.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:36
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Jagchosis posted:Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not An attack was launched from the site near those civilians. Artillery counter-fire is a game of statistics, with a wider and more intense area of fire required for greater probability of target elimination as time passes. Since Israel has an organized chain of command, sometimes those orders take time to move up, and then back down, that chain, especially in situations where Hamas launches attacks from high-PR value targets. It is far better to have an organized order of battle and chain of command, as those make an organization a well-regulated and professional institution, than it is to have every Mu'ammed, Omar, and Ali' launch terrorist attacks on a foreign nation whenever they please.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:37
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Kim Jong Il posted:What if the world is withholding aid because they see it as futile? Hamas indeed keeps the other factions at bay for the most part, but they also periodically ignite the conflict when they need to improve their poll numbers. Cynically killing thousands as a result. Then they're abandoning over a million people to totally pointless suffering involving lack of basic human needs, solely for political reasons. People need clean water and shelter regardless of who's running the government. Also, I'm pretty sure Hamas aren't particularly concerned about their poll numbers considering the current state of Palestinian governance, and also that they have no ability to unilaterally escalate anything. My Imaginary GF posted:An attack was launched from the site near those civilians. Artillery counter-fire is a game of statistics, with a wider and more intense area of fire required for greater probability of target elimination as time passes. No, it's not. Artillery counter-fire is a game of careful targeting where you fire on where you know your opponent is, not carpet-bombing as large an area as possible hoping you'll hit them eventually. It's also unlikely to result in target elimination; the typical effect of counter-battery fire is to temporarily suppress the enemy's fire by forcing them to dig in or relocate. It's also typically ineffective against enemies who relocate immediately after every shot - which happens to be an extremely common tactic among people firing rockets and single-shot weapons, as well as illa fighters in general. The Israeli responses to rocket fire have little in common with artillery counter-fire and accomplish no particular military objective. Palestinian insurgents are known to be quite accomplished in "shoot and scoot" tactics that get them away from the launch site before counter-fire can arrive. Even if they are hit by the counter-fire, it's not a huge military achievement to kill two guys who already fired off the one piss rocket they had with them, especially when the collateral damage from killing those two guys creates fifty new insurgents. The main purpose of Israeli fire, rather, is collective punishment - a simple and infamously inhumane tactic of attempting to dissuade enemy action by inflicting wholly disproportionate slaughter on nearby civilians in response to said actions.
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Apr 30, 2015 21:47
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Jagchosis posted:Sure thing, if someone quotes this post with the links or PMs me with them. I don't really know which ones are good or not This offer still stands btw, I/P crew State actors aren't allowed to intentionally target civilians for no legitimate military purpose either [/quote] ultramega pm'd me, OP updated. My Imaginary GF posted:An attack was launched from the site near those civilians. Artillery counter-fire is a game of statistics, with a wider and more intense area of fire required for greater probability of target elimination as time passes. Since Israel has an organized chain of command, sometimes those orders take time to move up, and then back down, that chain, especially in situations where Hamas launches attacks from high-PR value targets.
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Apr 30, 2015 23:15
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Miltank posted:Actually, Free Palestine is their goal. And by "Free Palestine" they mean "evict or kill everyone currently living in Israel, and take all of Israel's territory as part of Palestine".
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May 1, 2015 00:46
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Jagchosis posted:Sounds like the chain of command needs training on the legal principle of proportionality then because if they think they are obeying the Geneva Conventions then they are really fuckin dumb! I'd call counter-bombardment in response to attacks which shut down a nation's sole air corridor to be proportionate.
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May 1, 2015 01:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'd call counter-bombardment in response to attacks which shut down a nation's sole air corridor to be proportionate. Not even what proportionate means in this context. If collateral damage is expected to occur during a strike on a legitimate target (which lol at that part too) it needs to be proportionate to the military advantage gained. This is enshrined in Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions I and the Rome Statute. While Israel is party to neither (wonder why  ) guidelines on proportionality are still included in IDF manuals on the laws of war.
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May 1, 2015 01:38
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Alien Arcana posted:From two pages back:  That's bullshit and you're dumb if you believe it. The IDF is a real military and has all sorts of bases and facilities that make distinct targets for attack, yet back during the height of the intifada, it was almost unheard of for a suicide bomber to die attacking a military installation. They typically chose buses and markets and restaurants and other civilian targets, because Hamas is a terrorist organization that tries to apply pressure on Israel by holding civilians at risk. Suicide bombing should be the most discriminate form of bombing there is, since the bomber has to physically choose where to blow himself up, and Hamas chose civilian targets. It's the same with their rockets. They make zero effort whatsoever to target military infrastructure, choosing instead to saturate southern Israel with rockets, because the purpose of the rockets is to threaten civilians.Even back when Ben Gurion had a ramp for military cargo, (they never to my knowledge used it as a base for attack aircraft,) it was separated from the passenger terminal due to the really obvious security concerns.
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May 1, 2015 02:22
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Basically it's OK to kill civilians as long as you say afterwards that you totally didn't mean to.
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May 1, 2015 02:56
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Odobenidae posted:Good job dodging his question and instead bringing up other people's opinions on the subject. What is this trying to prove? If there are posters who are upset by being confronted by the reality that their fellow travellers are eminently willing to excuse or even sanction the killing of children, then perhaps they should take the issue up with them. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read the post you would have realized that darkcrawler asked for examples, so I provided a few. I can't say I'm too surprised by the projection of their own bloodlust onto their opponents, either.  types are just as convinced that it's liberals who are the real racists and will never be swayed from that belief, just as there are some anti-Zionists who will likely never own up to the fact that their elaborate justifications for the murder of Israeli civilians is exactly what they imagine those who disagree with them must think. Perhaps it makes them feel less guilty if they can tell themselves that both sides believe it.
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May 1, 2015 04:01
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The Insect Court posted:If there are posters who are upset by being confronted by the reality that their fellow travellers are eminently willing to excuse or even sanction the killing of children, then perhaps they should take the issue up with them. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read the post you would have realized that darkcrawler asked for examples, so I provided a few. Can we get a quick tally on dead israeli citizens vs dead gazan citizens or are you going to argue that israel bombs citizens and destroys important infrastructure out of the goodness of their hearts and for the betterment of palestinians
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May 1, 2015 04:14
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No nation with the capacity for bombing has bothered to consider the moral impropriety of murdering civilians with collateral damage. The only real restrictions are the possibility of hypocritical enforcement of the laws and customs of war, and pragmatic concerns.
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May 1, 2015 04:20
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death .cab for qt posted:Can we get a quick tally on dead israeli citizens vs dead gazan citizens or are you going to argue that israel bombs citizens and destroys important infrastructure out of the goodness of their hearts and for the betterment of palestinians
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May 1, 2015 04:37
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"Caught in the crossfire" is an interesting euphemism for "blown up along with the school they were sheltering in".
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 05:06 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 05:04
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Irony Be My Shield posted:"Caught in the crossfire" is an interesting euphemism for "blown up along with the school they were sheltering in". Well it IS Gaza so it's quite likely that there were some Hamas members sort of generally in the area somewhere maybe.
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May 1, 2015 05:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:"Caught in the crossfire" is an interesting euphemism for "blown up along with the school they were sheltering in". When you shelter rockets in a school, it ain't a school no more. If Gazans wanted their schools to be off-limits, they should have organized their own militias to prevent rockets and other arms from being stored or launched from those locationsm
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May 1, 2015 05:36
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Why Hamas isn't spending all its time and effort 24/7 to prevent Israel from being attacked is one of life's great mysteries. I mean, Fatah/the PA does literally this and that's why they have an independent and successful state!
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May 1, 2015 05:52
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The West Bank hasn't had any of its infrastructure blown up lately, so... maybe some benefits worth considering.
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May 1, 2015 06:03
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Yeah they should just meekly wait until they run out of water in like 6 months.
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May 1, 2015 06:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:The West Bank hasn't had any of its infrastructure blown up lately, so... maybe some benefits worth considering. Yup. Its not hard to figure out who should be running Palestine when you look at the difference in outcomes between gaza and the West Bank. Hamas and the rest don't have to do what they do, they make a choice to do it.
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May 1, 2015 07:40
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The Insect Court posted:Sixty seconds skimming the earlier pages of the previous I/P thread(the very first post in, btw, was one of yours casting doubt on the idea that Hamas was responsible for the murder of a pair of teenagers): You got two people out of how many pro-Palestinian people in this thread? Neither who seem to be mainstays. Meanwhile on the pro-Israeli side we have Dead Reackoning and hakimashou who all have posted condoning bombings of Palestinians while judging when Palestinians do it to Israel. MIGF who in addition to above has admitted that he supports apartheid. Kaal who thinks Palestinians need to be relocated to Arab countries. You who has admitted to supporting racially based immigration laws and accused me of being a white guy when you disagreed with me. See its a bigger pool with this side. I've never said that there aren't bad posters or anti-semites and I've said it directly to you. But pro-Israel side is uniformly poo poo, a consequence of supporting an colonizing apartheid state. If we went to a pro-Israeli forum, you would find a thousand people who support apartheid and/or colonialism too. Making them 100% on the wrong side as well. Don't try to make it a game of who's worse because you will lose in on every count. Dead Reckoning posted:Except that Hamas has pretty much always been up front about the fact that it deliberately targets civilians. Civilian casualties are their goal, not an unfortunate side effect. Israel colonizes Palestinians and violently hurts them if they try to resist in any way. Israel bombs buildings where they know civilians are. That is deliberately targeting civilians, no matter how many bullshit justification you try to pull out of your rear end. The Insect Court posted:If there are posters who are upset by being confronted by the reality that their fellow travellers are eminently willing to excuse or even sanction the killing of children, then perhaps they should take the issue up with them. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read the post you would have realized that darkcrawler asked for examples, so I provided a few. Except that those fellow travelers who drone on about that are chased out of this thread. If being pro-Palestine makes me fellow travelers with Hamas supporters, your fellow travelers are millions of well-off people who cheer on a militant apartheid colonialist state. It cuts both ways. Since you're a pussy who runs away from the thread whenever you're lost a debate I don't expect you to answer, but pointing out your hypocrisy is always fun. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 07:49 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 07:42
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The Insect Court posted:If there are posters who are upset by being confronted by the reality that their fellow travellers are eminently willing to excuse or even sanction the killing of children, then perhaps they should take the issue up with them. Besides, if you had bothered to actually read the post you would have realized that darkcrawler asked for examples, so I provided a few. My Imaginary GF posted:When you shelter rockets in a school, it ain't a school no more. If Gazans wanted their schools to be off-limits, they should have organized their own militias to prevent rockets and other arms from being stored or launched from those locationsm Jesus loving christ, you're not even pretending to be sincere. I don't understand why you guys are allowed to post in this thread.
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May 1, 2015 09:07
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hakimashou posted:Yup. Its not hard to figure out who should be running Palestine when you look at the difference in outcomes between gaza and the West Bank. Hamas and the rest don't have to do what they do, they make a choice to do it. Counterpoint: settlements continue to spread across the West Bank, and all of the PA's diplomatic and political efforts to prevent this as it is fatal to the idea of a two-state solution have failed. In fact, some hardball moves at the UN have only lead to increased settlement and other administrative penalties meant to weaken the PA and keep them on the path toward irrelevance. Normally when you're making an example of rebels and rewarding collaborators to try and win over a population, you actually have to reward the collaborators rather than give them a different kind of slow death. Hamas and Gaza are great boogey-men to talk up the danger the Palestinians represent, but nobody honestly believes Abbas will be rewarded for keeping a lid on violence in the West Bank with an actual state - at least, not after Netanyahu admitted as much.
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May 1, 2015 09:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:When you shelter rockets in a school, it ain't a school no more. If Gazans wanted their schools to be off-limits, they should have organized their own militias to prevent rockets and other arms from being stored or launched from those locationsm Stop that already, you already know the rockets where not in the schools that were bombed. Dead Reckoning posted:The West Bank hasn't had any of its infrastructure blown up lately, so... maybe some benefits worth considering. Yeah, having your infrastructure bulldozed so that instead Israel can build illegal settlements, roads exclusively reserved to illegal settlers, and walls preventing legal inhabitants from going to their fields and orchards that are now getting illegally appropriated by illegal settlers is certainly a much more desirable outcome. Also the illegal settlements and assorted infrastructure is subsidized while Israeli living in legitimate Israeli territory are suffering from high costs of life, specifically so as to create a big financial incentive to get more illegal settlers.
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May 1, 2015 09:33
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