Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

TwoQuestions posted:

How and why are public defenders funded, and what incentive (aside from reputation/professional pride) do they have to represent their clients well?

The cynic in me says they're a powerless prop put in place so they can say the accused wasn't completely defenseless, akin to giving someone a dull pocketknife so you can say they were armed when 10 men gunned them down.

It depends on the location.
A proper government employed public defender will give you a far better shake than the majority of criminal defense attorneys, many of whom are incompetents that leach money and plea people out at the first oportunity. The only way to get good at trials is to do them and PDs do more than anyone. PDs are also the most likely to go to trial because the client doesn't care how much it is going to cost.
Today, being a PD is a sought after job because social justice is a thing, you get governmeny benefits, and don't have to chase clients. In CA, pay is exactly the same as local DAs. 900 people will apply for one or two open spots. Offices get the pick of the litter.
They are completely understaffed though, so they're gonna forget your name. They also don't care about kissing client rear end because they don't get paid by then, so they will tell people how it actually is. That said, PDs aren't dumptrucks. They're generally incentivised to go to trial and they're all type a people who hate losing. Much of thier time is spent trying to talk people out of taking pleas.

Places with contract or panel PDs are way more hit or miss and the source of most actual PD issues these days.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 22:39

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# ? May 29, 2024 17:39

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The catch being that often even if pay is equal, the DA has a far larger pool of resources for forensics, footwork, etc than a PD generally will. This can result in fun shenanigans like PDs saying they want forensics of an item barred just to get the DA to fund testing of the item so the PD can get the evidence via discovery. Or so a documentary led me to believe IANAL.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 22:45

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

nm posted:

It depends on the location.
A proper government employed public defender will give you a far better shake than the majority of criminal defense attorneys, many of whom are incompetents that leach money and plea people out at the first oportunity. The only way to get good at trials is to do them and PDs do more than anyone. PDs are also the most likely to go to trial because the client doesn't care how much it is going to cost.
Today, being a PD is a sought after job because social justice is a thing, you get governmeny benefits, and don't have to chase clients. In CA, pay is exactly the same as local DAs. 900 people will apply for one or two open spots. Offices get the pick of the litter.
They are completely understaffed though, so they're gonna forget your name. They also don't care about kissing client rear end because they don't get paid by then, so they will tell people how it actually is. That said, PDs aren't dumptrucks. They're generally incentivised to go to trial and they're all type a people who hate losing. Much of thier time is spent trying to talk people out of taking pleas.

Places with contract or panel PDs are way more hit or miss and the source of most actual PD issues these days.

It really all depends on funding.

In South Carolina for example Public Defenders are severely underpaid relative to the prosecutors and also tend to have triple or quadruple the caseloads. So it's a mix of true idealists (generally your best bet, some of these are really effective), young attorneys who just want the experience, and incompetents who can't get better jobs. Either way though they're spending at most a third of the time on your case that the prosecutor is.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 22:47

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

mlmp08 posted:

The catch being that often even if pay is equal, the DA has a far larger pool of resources for forensics, footwork, etc than a PD generally will. This can result in fun shenanigans like PDs saying they want forensics of an item barred just to get the DA to fund testing of the item so the PD can get the evidence via discovery. Or so a documentary led me to believe IANAL.

That is true, but quite frankly will be true for anyone prosecuted who isn't rich as gently caress. At least at the PDs office, you might get access to an expert. For private, you have to pay out of pocket, which is a strech if you just blew all your money on a lawyer.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 22:55

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

The most interesting thing about the police claiming that Gray broke his own neck is the total lack of respect they have for their audience.

quote:

Uh we just found a jailhouse snitch, who we can't name. He made a statement, which we will paraphrase rather than quoting. He says that Gray caused the injuries himself, even though that's probably not even physiologically possible. Also please ignore the fact that all previous information indicated that Gray's behavior during the ride was quiet and orderly.

It's just so poorly conceived that only an idiot would believe it, so the police are basically saying they think everybody is idiots. The sad thing is, a lot of people are that dumb. A few days ago there was a fun Gawker piece where their guy went to the Maryland Hunt Cup, and he talked to a man who very confidently explained that he had consulted some doctor friends at Johns Hopkins and they told him Gray's spine was already broken before he was arrested.
:psyboom:

# ? Apr 30, 2015 23:31

MaxxBot: Oct 6, 2003; you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!

Intel&Sebastian posted:

The highwater mark for parents putting their own kids into the system has to be the guy who planted drugs in his kids truck to teach him a lesson...who then got the "kids for cash" judge.....who sent him to juvy....where he befriended a bunch of gangsters and criminals and eventually killed himself.

My favorite part of the whole stupid thing was that the dad was doing it so his sons high school drinking wouldn't screw up his college wrestling scholarship....which is basically a drinking scholarship as far as I know.

I'm on my phone but if you google the dads name, kenzakoski, and "planted drugs" you can find it.

That's already mind blowingly stupid as-is but in addition to that schools will often rescind athletic scholarships if someone gets charged with even minor crimes, he probably wouldn't have been able to wrestle even if he got a better judge.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 23:41

STAC Goat: Mar 12, 2008; Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Sharpton had an interview on his show from the guy he claims is the mentioned prisoner in question. He said that Gray was silent except for "some small bangs" and when they stopped the cops said he had no pulse.

So unless Sharpton invented this guy that should shut down this stupid theory, right? Oh wait, I forgot, Al Sharpton is the devil who orchestrates all matters of African American civil unrest. My bad, Fox News.

EvanSchenck posted:

The most interesting thing about the police claiming that Gray broke his own neck is the total lack of respect they have for their audience.
It's just so poorly conceived that only an idiot would believe it, so the police are basically saying they think everybody is idiots. The sad thing is, a lot of people are that dumb. A few days ago there was a fun Gawker piece where their guy went to the Maryland Hunt Cup, and he talked to a man who very confidently explained that he had consulted some doctor friends at Johns Hopkins and they told him Gray's spine was already broken before he was arrested.

I saw Neil Cavuto tell a NYPD cop that "some people thing its unlikely that someone could break his own spine" and the cop calmly answered "Its actually very common."

Then I got a little more terrified about living in NYC.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 30, 2015

# ? Apr 30, 2015 23:44

Intel&Sebastian: Oct 20, 2002; colonel...
i'm trying to sneak around
but i'm dummy thicc
and the clap of my ass cheeks
keeps alerting the guards!

STAC Goat posted:

Sharpton had an interview on his show from the guy he claims is the mentioned prisoner in question. He said that Gray was silent except for "some small bangs" and when they stopped the cops said he had no pulse.

So unless Sharpton invented this guy that should shut down this stupid theory, right? Oh wait, I forgot, Al Sharpton is the devil who orchestrates all matters of African American civil unrest. My bad, Fox News.

I saw Neil Cavuto tell a NYPD cop that "some people thing its unlikely that someone could break his own spine" and the cop calmly answered "Its actually very common."

Then I got a little more terrified about living in NYC.

Jayne Miller (the wbal reporter who is apperantly kicking rear end on this thing) just put out an interview with the 2nd passenger who said he only heard about 4 seconds of "little" banging noises.

Sorry BPD guess you'll need to spend anout half hour cooking up a reason we should hate your murder victim.

# ? Apr 30, 2015 23:51

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

semper wifi posted:

Most likely scenario to me, considering the video, is that he was just limp back there bumping around after getting hurt in the arrest, and the cops who put him in assumed he was just being a dick. Would explain both the "mostly quiet" and the slamming around.

The best myth you can create is "they intentionally 'let physics kill him'" instead of murdering him using a method they have been known to employ for years.

Well done!

# ? Apr 30, 2015 23:59

STAC Goat: Mar 12, 2008; Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

There's still Geraldo's asthmatic seizure theory. That thing has legs. I saw someone on The Five bring it up.

# ? May 1, 2015 00:13

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Well an asthmatic seizure would be treated pretty quickly if they'd let him have his inhaler- oh wait.

# ? May 1, 2015 00:13

Devor: Nov 30, 2004; Lurking more.

FRINGE posted:

The best myth you can create is "they intentionally 'let physics kill him'" instead of murdering him using a method they have been known to employ for years.

Well done!

Police follow the first rule of robotics, but the modified one that the mining robots used, that allow the Policeman, through inaction, to allow humans to come to harm.

# ? May 1, 2015 00:18

Anora: Feb 16, 2014; I fuckin suck!🪠

Lemming posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/baltimore-rioters-parents-500000-bail-allen-bullock

Some other fun things:

Justice is blind

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Technically, that judge is now a criminal.

# ? May 1, 2015 00:23

hobotrashcanfires: Jul 24, 2013

Anora posted:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Technically, that judge is now a criminal.

Have fun pointing this out to strict constitutionalist republicans...

# ? May 1, 2015 00:24

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Pollyanna posted:

Well an asthmatic seizure would be treated pretty quickly if they'd let him have his inhaler- oh wait.

I have seen people seize plenty of times since I work on a neuro floor, but the biggest danger is usually them hitting their head or falling out of bed unto the floor or once they are on the floor, them hurting their extremities. Severing your spine completely is pretty drat uncommon in general in all but the most severe of traumatic accidents.

I mean, holy poo poo, old people fall and injure their spine all the time, but they have more fragile bones and even then its usually only a compression fracture, not the severing of their spine.

# ? May 1, 2015 00:31

Dahn: Sep 4, 2004

blackguy32 posted:

I have seen people seize plenty of times since I work on a neuro floor, but the biggest danger is usually them hitting their head or falling out of bed unto the floor or once they are on the floor, them hurting their extremities. Severing your spine completely is pretty drat uncommon in general in all but the most severe of traumatic accidents.

I mean, holy poo poo, old people fall and injure their spine all the time, but they have more fragile bones and even then its usually only a compression fracture, not the severing of their spine.

So do most police vans have large bolts sticking out in the back of them?

# ? May 1, 2015 00:39

Full-Bodied Flavor: Jan 8, 2011

RBC posted:

the baltimore police is literally nelson muntz telling freddy gray to stop hitting himself

Who?

# ? May 1, 2015 00:39

Zeitgueist: Aug 8, 2003; by Ralp

Full-Bodied Flavor posted:

Who?

You don't know Nelson?

# ? May 1, 2015 00:43

AARO: Mar 9, 2005; by Lowtax

For you guys who haven't been reading the gibbis thread also here's a thing from a public defender after dealing with 100's of those imprisoned this week.

quote:

OK�here it is�

I�m going to try to keep this as brief as I can, but I�ve been asked by several people about Central Booking today, so I�ll give you guys the shocking highlights. As much as I�d like to, I can�t describe the particulars of some of the more egregious arrests, due to attorney/client privilege issues, but I would like to describe the Civil Liberties violations, and the deplorable conditions which people have had to endure.

As many of you know, more than 250 people have been arrested since Monday here in Baltimore. Normally when you are arrested, you are given a copy of your charging documents and then you must see a commissioner within 24 hours for a bail determination (�prompt presentment�) and given a trial date. If you are not released after the commissioner hearing, you will be brought before a judge for a review of the bail set by the commissioner. None of this was happening, so we sent some lawyers to Central Booking yesterday to try to help. I heard, however, that only 2 commissioners showed up, and the correctional officers only brought about 9 people to be interviewed because the jail was on a mysterious �lock-down�.

Today we were divided into two groups. Some of the lawyers were assigned the task of actually doing judicial bail reviews for as many folks as they could get interviewed and docketed. I was assigned to the other group. We were the �habeas team�, and we were to interview folks that we felt were being illegally detained, so we could file writs of habeas corpus. Governor Hogan had issued an executive order, extending the time for prompt presentment to 47 hours. We believed that this order was invalid because the governor has no authority to alter the Maryland Rules. As a result, all people who were being detained for more than 24 hours without seeing a commissioner were being held illegally.

Knowing all of this, I was still not prepared for what I saw when I arrived. The small concrete booking cells were filled with hundreds of people, most with more than ten people per cell. Three of us were sent to the women�s side where there were up to 15 women per holding cell. Most of them had been there since Monday afternoon/evening. With the exception of 3 or 4 women, the women who weren�t there for Monday�s round-ups were there for freaking curfew violations. Many had not seen a doctor or received required medication. Many had not been able to reach a family member by phone. But here is the WORST thing. Not only had these women been held for two days and two nights without any sort of formal booking, BUT ALMOST NONE OF THEM HAD ACTUALLY BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING. They were brought to CBIF via paddy wagons (most without seat belts, btw�a real shocker after all that�s happened), and taken to holding cells without ever being charged with an actual crime. No offense reports. No statements of probable cause. A few women had a vague idea what they might be charged with, some because of what they had actually been involved in, and some because of what the officer said, but quite a few had no idea why they were even there. Incidentally, I interviewed no one whose potential charges would have been more serious than petty theft, and most seemed to be disorderly conduct or failure to obey, charges which would usually result in an immediate recog/release.

The holding cells are approximately 10x10 (some slightly larger), with one open sink and toilet. The women were instructed that the water was �bad� and that they shouldn�t drink it. There are no beds�just a concrete cube. No blankets or pillows. The cells were designed to hold people for a few hours, not a few days. In the one cell which housed 15 women, there wasn�t even enough room for them all to lay down at the same time. Three times a day, the guards brought each woman 4 slices of bread, a slice of american cheese and a small bag of cookies. They sometimes got juice, but water was scarce, as the CO�s had to wheel a water cooler through every so often (the regular water being �broken�.)

My fellow attorneys and I all separately heard the same sickening story over and over. None of the women really wanted to eat 4 slices of bread 3 times a day, so they were saving slices of bread TO USE AS PILLOWS. Let me say that again. THEY WERE ALL USING BREAD AS PILLOWS SO THAT THEY WOULDN�T HAVE TO LAY THEIR HEADS ON THE FILTHY CONCRETE FLOOR.

Interviewing these women was emotionally exhausting. Quite a few of them began crying � so happy to finally see someone who might know why they were there, or perhaps how they might get out of this Kafka-esque nightmare. These women came from all walks of life. We interviewed high school students, college students, people with graduate degrees, people with GED�s, single women, married women, mothers, the well-employed, the unemployed, black women and white women. Almost all of them had no record. Those that did, had things like DUI�s and very minor misdemeanors. Our group didn�t interview any of the men on the other side, but my colleagues reported very similar situations. On the men�s side there were journalists and activists, as well as highschool kids with no records, barely 18 years old.

As we were getting ready to leave, we heard that many of these folks might be released without charges, after being held for 2 days. When we returned to the office, our amazing �habeas fellow�, Zina Makar, single-handedly filed 82 habeas petitions. That is when we heard that 101 people were released without charges. I�d like to think that the amazing legal response to this injustice played a large part in their release, and I feel privileged to have been a part of it. They may be charged later, but I�m guessing most of them won�t based on how minor their alleged infractions are. There are still over a hundred folks in there that need to see a commissioner and/or a judge, but hopefully we have thinned the ranks a little, and we will keep fighting until everyone has received due process. (We are concerned about these folks� potential bails, as we are hearing about bails in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for misdemeanor charges).

- Marci Tarrant Johnson
�Public Defenders for Peace, Police Accountability and Probable Cause�

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205579479419696&set=a.1094624319194.16785.1034140091&type=1&permPage=1

# ? May 1, 2015 00:46

PerpetualSelf: Apr 6, 2015; by Ralp

olin posted:

For you guys who haven't been reading the gibbis thread also here's a thing from a public defender after dealing with 100's of those imprisoned this week.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205579479419696&set=a.1094624319194.16785.1034140091&type=1&permPage=1

Man gently caress the police.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:01

ToastyPotato: Jun 23, 2005; CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

http://gothamist.com/2015/04/29/cop_watch.php

quote:

Police charged Disisto with obstructing governmental administration, disorderly conduct, and resisting arrest. In a police report, Munoz wrote that Disisto lunged and took a swing at him. It would have been hard to disprove had the interaction not been caught on surveillance camera. It couldn't have hurt that there are three different angles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBSNCwwkZZE

NYPD Cop inappropriately touches woman next to her friends. Friend gets annoyed, pulls out his phone, and the cop lunges at him while the dude is trying to get the camera app up. Phone ends up getting snatched and broken, and the dude get's charged with a bunch of bullshit. But the business they were in front of has cameras, and so, the charges get dropped, and the officers keep their jobs.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:02

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Filing blatantly fake charges should be a firing at the very minimum. Preferable he should be charged himself since he tried to use the system to ruin a person's life.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:08

Zwabu: Aug 7, 2006

Radish posted:

Filing blatantly fake charges should be a firing at the very minimum. Preferable he should be charged himself since he tried to use the system to ruin a person's life.

Is there like a PoliceCams.com type of site that compiles ALL of these incidents that can be found?

# ? May 1, 2015 01:13

AbbadonOfHell: Jul 16, 2004; You know I would try to think of something funny to put here but ill just pass on that and threaten people with a + 2 board with a nail in it.

Radish posted:

Filing blatantly fake charges should be a firing at the very minimum. Preferable he should be charged himself since he tried to use the system to ruin a person's life.

Good luck with that, he's probably getting vacation.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:16

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

South Carolina State Senate voted 43-3 to require all SC officers on patrol to wear a camera on head or body, and to establish a fund for it to avoid burdening smaller depts.

Headed to State House next, expected to pass.

Does not apply to detectives or similar positions.

"A third bill, also advanced unanimously, mandates that the State Law Enforcement Division investigate officer-involved shootings that result in bodily injury or death. SLED Chief Mark Keel asked lawmakers to amend the bill as it makes its way through committees to ensure that the agency would only investigate shootings in which there are serious injuries or death. Asking SLED to investigate currently is optional, and at least one major law enforcement agency in the state � the Richland County Sheriff�s Office � does its own investigations."

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 01:19

hobotrashcanfires: Jul 24, 2013

Any good sources for updates/livestream/whatever on current demonstrations going on?

# ? May 1, 2015 01:25

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

olin posted:

For you guys who haven't been reading the gibbis thread also here's a thing from a public defender after dealing with 100's of those imprisoned this week.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205579479419696&set=a.1094624319194.16785.1034140091&type=1&permPage=1

drat, I'm surprised these public defenders don't fear for their safety, very courageous to still do their jobs in this situation!

Also, going to repost on my feed, hopefully clear some shitheads out of my friends list.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:32

ToastyPotato: Jun 23, 2005; CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Zwabu posted:

Is there like a PoliceCams.com type of site that compiles ALL of these incidents that can be found?

This site is sort of like that: http://photographyisnotacrime.com/category/videos/

It is a site dedicated to the filming of police actions in general.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:33

AARO: Mar 9, 2005; by Lowtax

ToastyPotato posted:

This site is sort of like that: http://photographyisnotacrime.com/category/videos/

It is a site dedicated to the filming of police actions in general.

in a similar vein there's also copblock

# ? May 1, 2015 01:38

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Vahakyla posted:

South Carolina State Senate voted 43-3 to require all SC officers on patrol to wear a camera on head or body, and to establish a fund for it to avoid burdening smaller depts.

Headed to State House next, expected to pass.

Does not apply to detectives or similar positions.

"A third bill, also advanced unanimously, mandates that the State Law Enforcement Division investigate officer-involved shootings that result in bodily injury or death. SLED Chief Mark Keel asked lawmakers to amend the bill as it makes its way through committees to ensure that the agency would only investigate shootings in which there are serious injuries or death. Asking SLED to investigate currently is optional, and at least one major law enforcement agency in the state — the Richland County Sheriff’s Office — does its own investigations."

The body cam thing is real good, nice work SC.

# ? May 1, 2015 01:59

Cichlid the Loach: Oct 22, 2006; Brave heart, Doctor.

Seriously, how is South Carolina leading the nation in police accountability?

# ? May 1, 2015 02:05

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Vahakyla posted:

South Carolina State Senate voted 43-3 to require all SC officers on patrol to wear a camera on head or body, and to establish a fund for it to avoid burdening smaller depts.

Headed to State House next, expected to pass.

Does not apply to detectives or similar positions.

Get in on that TASR :10bux:

# ? May 1, 2015 02:07

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Cichlid the Loach posted:

Seriously, how is South Carolina leading the nation in police accountability?

This is the most terrifying thing to come out of this.

Then again I come from a state where the "worst" thing police do is scold dumb middle class white kids for buying weed.

# ? May 1, 2015 02:18

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Cichlid the Loach posted:

Seriously, how is South Carolina leading the nation in police accountability?

I would say it is because South Carolina is almost 30% Black, but so is Maryland so v0v.

Maybe White people in the South just don't appreciate the boys in blue as much as their Northern cousins.

# ? May 1, 2015 02:32

Cichlid the Loach: Oct 22, 2006; Brave heart, Doctor.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I would say it is because South Carolina is almost 30% Black, but so is Maryland so v0v.

Maybe White people in the South just don't appreciate the boys in blue as much as their Northern cousins.

Is it less segregated?

# ? May 1, 2015 02:34

PerpetualSelf: Apr 6, 2015; by Ralp

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I would say it is because South Carolina is almost 30% Black, but so is Maryland so v0v.

Maybe White people in the South just don't appreciate the boys in blue as much as their Northern cousins.

IDK everyone I know hates the police.

# ? May 1, 2015 02:41

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Cichlid the Loach posted:

Is it less segregated?

According to the data available here South Carolina is one of the least segregated states in the US (second only to Delaware) while Maryland is one of the most segregated at #15. So you may be on to something.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:23

Anora: Feb 16, 2014; I fuckin suck!🪠

hobotrashcanfires posted:

Have fun pointing this out to strict constitutionalist republicans...

That is part of the constitution. It's the 8th amendment to the constitution. If they have a problem with that, then they can't call themselves constitutionalists.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:30

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

In just a few months, my father has completely turned around on this. He always CLAIMED that he was suspicious of the police. In fact, he was the one who gave me the "don't talk to the police, don't let them into your home, don't let them do ANYTHING unless they have the legal responsibility to" talk when I was about fifteen, but from many conversations with him more recently it was clear that deep inside, he was giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's a tough job, they're just people too, and all that stuff. Not anymore. Yesterday he related to me a story of years ago how someone he had just met was talking to him about this and he called him a looney, and they parted badly. Now he's trying to look him up to apologize to him.

People can change.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:32

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# ? May 29, 2024 17:39

moller: Jan 10, 2007; Swan stole my music and framed me!

Anora posted:

That is part of the constitution. It's the 8th amendment to the constitution. If they have a problem with that, then they can't call themselves constitutionalists.

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

Biblical literalists wear blended fabrics and sneer at the poor. Small Government proponents love the Pentagon.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:36

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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