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My Imaginary GF posted:When you shelter rockets in a school, it ain't a school no more. If Gazans wanted their schools to be off-limits, they should have organized their own militias to prevent rockets and other arms from being stored or launched from those locationsm This, of course, extends to the UN as well. If they can't guarantee that their facilities are militarily neutral, or at least peaceful, then they can't operate in the area without completely compromising their mission. Allowing their buildings to be used as arms depots and firing points for militants is yet another symbol of the failure of the UNRWA. The UN needs to back another approach that has an actual chance of helping people and resolving the conflict.
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May 1, 2015 09:55
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Kaal posted:This, of course, extends to the UN as well. If they can't guarantee that their facilities are militarily neutral, or at least peaceful, then they can't operate in the area without completely compromising their mission. Allowing their buildings to be used as arms depots and firing points for militants is yet another symbol of the failure of the UNRWA. The UN needs to back another approach that has an actual chance of helping people and resolving the conflict. Let us not forget the hidden terror: Imaginary rockets. Bombs hidden inside five year olds. Incendiary pidgeons. Boxes you strap on your forehead that shoot marbles. Very dangerous. So are bacteria. Solution: Bomb Everything.
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May 1, 2015 09:58
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Kaal posted:This, of course, extends to the UN as well. If they can't guarantee that their facilities are militarily neutral, or at least peaceful, then they can't operate in the area without completely compromising their mission. Allowing their buildings to be used as arms depots and firing points for militants is yet another symbol of the failure of the UNRWA. The UN needs to back another approach that has an actual chance of helping people and resolving the conflict. Maybe they can deploy a neutral peace keeping force to... Hahaha, couldn't even finish that
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May 1, 2015 10:02
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It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone in this thread that Palestine is basically a poster-child for, "Sometimes it's better to fold and sue for peace rather than seeing how far the victor's commitment goes". It's a rabbit-hole that has no end.
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May 1, 2015 10:03
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As an aside, a paper has recently been published by an international law scholar on the IDFs targeting practices based on evidence gathered following an invitation to assess Israel's procedures. He largely concluded that what he witnessed falls within acceptable state practice (though he was not examining individual incidents during protective edge but rather the procedural process employed by the IDF). Brief conclusion here: http://justsecurity.org/22392/legal-operational-assessment-israels-targeting-practices/ As I said this is not an assessment of the application of the procedures during protective edge but a broad overview of how the previously opaque Israeli procedures conform with agreed state practice assuming they are followed correctly. The decision by the IDF to open up and allow outside assessment is the interesting part, the invitation was made following protective edge and demonstrates that there is at least some caution in Israeli quarters about a legal investigation into Protective Edge and a desire to demonstrate that they are conforming with state practice.
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May 1, 2015 10:28
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Are you alright posting without your helmet on Kaal? Because what you said was really loving retarded.
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May 1, 2015 10:38
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Kajeesus posted:Jesus loving christ, you're not even pretending to be sincere. I don't understand why you guys are allowed to post in this thread. He has a good point. There are plenty of guns in Gaza aren't there? Why is it safe for someone in gaza to talk about firing rockets, to transport rockets, or to fire rockets? Why isn't your average hamas/islamic jihad terrorist absolutely mortified of being shot in the street or in his bed by his fellow gazans for even contemplating firing rockets?
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May 1, 2015 10:47
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hakimashou posted:He has a good point. There are plenty of guns in Gaza aren't there? Why is it safe for someone in gaza to talk about firing rockets, to transport rockets, or to fire rockets? There are plenty of guns, but they're all in the hands of the militias. There are cases of homeowners disputing the use of their homes for rocket attacks, but they're quickly silenced. It's not like it's an open democracy or anything. If someone argues with their house being used as a firing point then they'll be threatened or even beaten, and no one will do anything about it. The media will be kept far away, and it'll just be like there never was a disagreement at all.
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May 1, 2015 10:51
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hakimashou posted:He has a good point. There are plenty of guns in Gaza aren't there? Why is it safe for someone in gaza to talk about firing rockets, to transport rockets, or to fire rockets? *at IDF headquarters* Why don't you go to Gaza and ask? *stares at button that fires missiles into Gaza* Go right ahead, what the worst that can happen? *presses button*
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May 1, 2015 10:55
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Yeah that's a good point. What possible reason do Palestinians have to not like Israel??
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May 1, 2015 10:56
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah that's a good point. What possible reason do Palestinians have to not like Israel?? Israel is a bunch of colonial settlers believing God has given them this land to take from others, what other reason do you need to hate them? Look at the loving United States of America, why else do you think we support them?
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May 1, 2015 10:58
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hakimashou posted:He has a good point. There are plenty of guns in Gaza aren't there? Why is it safe for someone in gaza to talk about firing rockets, to transport rockets, or to fire rockets? Honestly, what you seem to imply is that the best solution for Palestinians is to take these guns and shoot themselves, so Israel is no longer inconvenienced by them. Kaal posted:It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone in this thread that Palestine is basically a poster-child for, "Sometimes it's better to fold and sue for peace rather than seeing how far the victor's commitment goes". It's a rabbit-hole that has no end. Sometimes, when you're surrounded and it's hopeless, you just have to say "Nuts!" Panzeh fucked around with this message at 11:08 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 11:03
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kustomkarkommando posted:As an aside, a paper has recently been published by an international law scholar on the IDFs targeting practices based on evidence gathered following an invitation to assess Israel's procedures. He largely concluded that what he witnessed falls within acceptable state practice (though he was not examining individual incidents during protective edge but rather the procedural process employed by the IDF). Brief conclusion here: The IDF conducts extensive legal investigations into all kinds of things after every military operation. The "just war" case and the image as the most moral army in the world are really important to the IDF. They are however notorious for never allowing any investigation that they do not control themselves, so when "the sole purpose of the project was to examine Israeli targeting systems, processes and norms in the abstract" i can see how the conclusion would be that it looks good.
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May 1, 2015 11:08
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hakimashou posted:He has a good point. There are plenty of guns in Gaza aren't there? Why is it safe for someone in gaza to talk about firing rockets, to transport rockets, or to fire rockets? You're almost there! Try answering the question yourself! Could it be that 1: Gazans are, without exception, bloodthirsty self-destructive anti-semites who are happy to sacrifice themselves and their families if it'll momentarily inconvenience a Jew? 2: HAMAS has complete and utter control of the Gaza strip, in spite of the constant kidnappings, assassinations and attempts to hire double agents from Israel's side, and the fact that Gazans have nothing worth stealing? 3: Your assessment of the situation in Gaza is utterly divorced from fact?
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May 1, 2015 11:17
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Svartvit posted:The IDF conducts extensive legal investigations into all kinds of things after every military operation. The "just war" case and the image as the most moral army in the world are really important to the IDF. They are however notorious for never allowing any investigation that they do not control themselves, so when "the sole purpose of the project was to examine Israeli targeting systems, processes and norms in the abstract" i can see how the conclusion would be that it looks good. Yeah, its not massively substantive but interesting in that they allowed a foreign team to assess the legality of processes they previously kept closely guarded supposedly for opsec reasons, its a step beyond an internal legal review. In saying that the authors are a retired US Air Force Judge Advocate and an active US Army Judge Advocate which may be the acceptable kind of external oversight as far as the IDF are concerned.
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May 1, 2015 11:18
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kustomkarkommando posted:As an aside, a paper has recently been published by an international law scholar on the IDFs targeting practices based on evidence gathered following an invitation to assess Israel's procedures. He largely concluded that what he witnessed falls within acceptable state practice (though he was not examining individual incidents during protective edge but rather the procedural process employed by the IDF). Brief conclusion here: Acceptable state practice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDCq8tKxAHs
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May 1, 2015 11:59
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I don't understand how people like kaal and hakimashou can say the ignorant poo poo they do when there is literal video evidence of the IDF doing things like smearing stars of david out of poo poo on palestinian's homes and destroying palestinian culture. MIGF is just a troll so it's easy to handwave that stuff away(and put him on ignore what the gently caress are you waiting for)but these other guys and I guess insect court really just seem so loving eager to handwave that poo poo away and instead talk about how the arabs lost so guess you just gotta cut your losses and run. I guess they can come back in a few thousand years and retake their country and then you'll have people falling on themselves to defend it because they scored a military victory and that definitely makes every single thing they do seem right and justified. edit: also lol at insect court for coming up with...two quotes from the last thread. that's the best you can do? Ultramega fucked around with this message at 15:23 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 15:14
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TIC is pretty clearly as much of a troll as MIGF: he just coats it in crocodile tears and evasiveness rather than 70s realpolitik, and Kaal's redtext is from a previous I/P text where he actually commented on Israeli atrocities.
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May 1, 2015 15:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:When you shelter rockets in a school, it ain't a school no more. If Gazans wanted their schools to be off-limits, they should have organized their own militias to prevent rockets and other arms from being stored or launched from those locationsm There weren't rockets being sheltered in any of the schools that were hit - or, for that matter, any school with people in it. Yet, given the choice between schools with rockets in them and schools with people in them, Israel chose to destroy the refugees while leaving the rockets unharmed. An interesting look into Israeli military priorities. Dead Reckoning posted:The West Bank hasn't had any of its infrastructure blown up lately, so... maybe some benefits worth considering. Of course they haven't. After all, Israelis are using that infrastructure. That's why they just settle for walling it off so the Palestinians can't have it.
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May 1, 2015 16:13
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Ultramega posted:I don't understand how people like kaal and hakimashou can say the ignorant poo poo they do when there is literal video evidence of the IDF doing things like smearing stars of david out of poo poo on palestinian's homes and destroying palestinian culture. Hakimashou and Kaal are just plain retards so we should be pitying them instead of shunning them.
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May 1, 2015 18:24
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Main Paineframe posted:There weren't rockets being sheltered in any of the schools that were hit - or, for that matter, any school with people in it. Yet, given the choice between schools with rockets in them and schools with people in them, Israel chose to destroy the refugees while leaving the rockets unharmed. An interesting look into Israeli military priorities. I'd like to believe you. Unfortunately, the UN has a track record of moving out of the way for those who wish to "drive the jews into the sea."
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May 1, 2015 18:49
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'd like to believe you. Unfortunately, the UN has a track record of moving out of the way for those who wish to "drive the jews into the sea." Could you maybe rephrase your statement in some other language besides retarded?
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May 1, 2015 19:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'd like to believe you. Unfortunately, the UN has a track record of moving out of the way for those who wish to "drive the jews into the sea." They also have a track record of moving out of the way for those who wish to "expel the Arabs and take their place", so it doesn't seem like they have a history of taking sides!
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May 1, 2015 19:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'd like to believe you. Unfortunately, the UN has a track record of moving out of the way for those who wish to "drive the jews into the sea." I hear "drive the Jews into the sea" like it's some kind of horrible inevitability should Gazans be given the right to exist without being murdered every 2 years but no matter how much I try, I can't envision a couple dudes with piss rockets, rocks, green headbands with squiggles and AKs shouting Allahu Ackbar managing to shunt 500 tanks and what 100.000 or whatever soldiers equipped with 21st century weapons into the Med. Can you illustrate the scenario for me? Crayon would be good.
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May 1, 2015 20:25
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No see the ultimate destruction of Judaism is the fact that Jews can only marry other Jews so the Jewish population will die unless all the undesirables (ie Arabs) are eliminated from the gene pool.
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May 1, 2015 20:42
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DarkCrawler posted:Meanwhile on the pro-Israeli side we have Dead Reackoning and hakimashou who all have posted condoning bombings of Palestinians while judging when Palestinians do it to Israel. Don’t misrepresent my position either. Since people in this thread love to jump around from topic to topic, bear in mind that I’m only talking about Israel’s conduct of its military campaigns right now. Civilian deaths are bad, whether caused by Israel or by Hamas. However, Israel’s policy and conduct in its military campaigns falls within the scope of normal state practice (as that piece linked by kustomkarkommando points out.) When the Sri Lankan military rooted out the last elements of the LTTE, they were also accused of showing disregard for civilians as well, but the international community more or less let the issue drop, because the written portions of LOAC normally take a back seat to the customary portions, and custom has been that different standards for assessing proportionality and military advantage have been used when dealing with insurgent and guerilla groups. Individual members of the Israeli military have committed war crimes against civilians, and Israel has not been as aggressive in pursuing convictions as they should be. This is wrong, but also typical for every nation that has engaged in a war in the 20th century. On the other hand, Hamas’ policy of making civilians the object of attack is a massive breach of international norms and a major obstacle to reestablishing peace. Civilians in Gaza suffer disproportionately compared to Israeli civilians, but this doesn’t give Hamas some moral right to retaliate against Israeli civilians. This is really dumb for two reasons: 1) Israel doesn’t have an official graffiti policy, so it’s not state practice at all, and 2) soldiers have been making GBS threads and drawing graffiti in inappropriate places since LOAC was mainly concerned with how many slaves you could take from the houses of a defeated nation. You’d be laughed out of The Hague if you tried to make a serious issue out of this. Cat Mattress posted:Yeah, having your infrastructure bulldozed so that instead Israel can build illegal settlements, roads exclusively reserved to illegal settlers, and walls preventing legal inhabitants from going to their fields and orchards that are now getting illegally appropriated by illegal settlers is certainly a much more desirable outcome. Main Paineframe posted:Of course they haven't. After all, Israelis are using that infrastructure. That's why they just settle for walling it off so the Palestinians can't have it.
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May 1, 2015 21:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:I challenge you to find a West Bank Palestinian who says, “Oh man, I would much rather live in the Gaza Strip. There they have freedom, resistance, and no settlers.” Why don't you find one yourself? *looks at button that fires missiles into the West Bank* Go ahead, what's the worst that could happen? *presses button*
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May 1, 2015 22:32
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Dead Reckoning posted:I challenge you to find a West Bank Palestinian who says, “Oh man, I would much rather live in the Gaza Strip. There they have freedom, resistance, and no settlers.” Hamas' popularity has been on the rise in the West Bank over the past year, in spite of the Abbas' administration's custom of randomly rounding up, arresting, and torturing Hamas supporters.
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May 1, 2015 22:48
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Dead Reckoning posted:When the Sri Lankan military rooted out the last elements of the LTTE, they were also accused of showing disregard for civilians as well, but the international community more or less let the issue drop, because the written portions of LOAC normally take a back seat to the customary portions, and custom has been that different standards for assessing proportionality and military advantage have been used when dealing with insurgent and guerilla groups. Not a great example. Not terrible, but not great. Sri Lanka has been a bit out in the cold diplomatically for the last ten years with Not China, and that's only really showing signs of lifting now that the president who oversaw the comprehensive obliteration of the Tamil Tigers (and anyone who might conceivably be associated with them) is surprisingly out of power and there may be a less unserious war crimes investigation. Prior to that, though, it was a real problem for SL international relations and occasionally trade and investment.
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May 2, 2015 00:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Hamas' popularity has been on the rise in the West Bank over the past year, in spite of the Abbas' administration's custom of randomly rounding up, arresting, and torturing Hamas supporters.
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May 2, 2015 01:26
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Main Paineframe posted:Hamas' popularity has been on the rise in the West Bank over the past year, in spite of the Abbas' administration's custom of randomly rounding up, arresting, and torturing Hamas supporters. Hahaha, on the rise from "gently caress them and everyone they know" maybe. You've been making some pretty pitiful defenses of Hamas recently, but nothing is really going to change the fact that all the quality of life indicators are overwhelmingly better in the West Bank than Gaza. Hamas is completely unable to govern, and is actively driving away international support for Palestinians. Hamas has basically been proof-positive that continued attempts to strongarm the Israelis will only be marked with continued failure and negative results for the Palestinians. Hamas' Gaza has been a chain around the neck of the West Bank for about a decade now, and all it has done is make things worse for everyone - Gaza Palestinians especially.
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May 2, 2015 04:07
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Ultramega posted:I don't understand how people like kaal and hakimashou can say the ignorant poo poo they do when there is literal video evidence of the IDF doing things like smearing stars of david out of poo poo on palestinian's homes and destroying palestinian culture. If you lose a war, you have to have good spirits and accept that the victors' soldiers will destroy your cultural centers and vandalize your homes so you should be a good sport about this and blah blah blah
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May 2, 2015 04:31
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VitalSigns posted:If you lose a war, you have to have good spirits and accept that the victors' soldiers will destroy your cultural centers and vandalize your homes so you should be a good sport about this and blah blah blah On the other hand, you can always just throw another couple hundred Palestinian kids' lives away on a fruitless ego trip. Maybe next generation's Intifada will finally regain everything that has been lost - excepting all the people who've been completely abandoned by that bloodthirsty policy. Accepting the concept of "peace is difficult but you try anyway because the alternative is worse" is obviously too hard for some. It's ok, you won't have to pay the cost of continued war. Palestinians will.
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May 2, 2015 04:36
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Yes, as long as Palestinians continue to live on land the Israelis want, Palestinians will pay the cost of continual war.
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May 2, 2015 04:42
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Kaal posted:I don't understand why everyone was so up in arms about the Holocaust.
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May 2, 2015 04:42
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The Warsaw uprising just got a lot of people killed, so who is really to blame here. The rebels obviously.
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May 2, 2015 04:46
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It's simply sad to see that this thread's complete lack of sentiment for Palestinians hasn't changed. People literally treat this conflict as a map-painting game, and it's rather pathetic and disgusting. Every year things get worse and worse for Palestinians, and this thread just shrugs and cheers for another generation to pick up the battle flag.
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May 2, 2015 04:48
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 Weren't you arguing a few pages ago that the best solution is to buy out all the Palestinians and relocate them somewhere else (labeling any who refuse unreasonable aggressors) so we can paint the map blue and white from the sea to the River Jordan?
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May 2, 2015 04:52
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VitalSigns posted:
The unreasonable aggressors part was just more rampant paranoia, but mediating the conflict in a way that gave both sides the opportunity to get what they need in a peaceful way would be a Good Thing. But since it didn't involve handing Kalashnikovs to children, this thread basically took it as well as one might think.
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May 2, 2015 04:56
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So we should paint the map blue-and-white throughout all of mandatory Palestine, got it. And it's everyone else who is treating it like a map painting game, not you. All right champ.
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May 2, 2015 04:58
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