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Arven posted:Overwatch and no charge from reserve. It's not so much overwatch itself, but overwatch, charge distance, and order in which to pull models. So as an assaulting unit, you have several things going at you from the get-go: - Your charge distance is random, you could be 3" away and not assault. - Overwatch will shoot with a BS1, which is solved by using template weapons. It gives the defender an extra shooting phase. - On top of that, lets say you rolled a 5" and made the assault, if you lose models you take the front ones first, which means the charge might fail.. so you lost dudes for nothing. Each of the roles is fine, but combined it really makes this game shoot-heavy.
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May 9, 2015 22:23
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Omar al-Bishie posted:What makes assault so bad in this edition and the last? Random distance as other people mentioned, but also there are a big limit of ways to charge. Not charging out of outflank, not charging out of a stationary transports, not being able to charge if you infiltrate/scout, etc. Outflank hurts, but it's such a minor thing in the end. It is more that to be able to charge in your next turn you have to basically sit out in the open.
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May 9, 2015 22:26
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Did someone say... BLOOD ANGELS? My painting skills vary from sloppy to mediocre, but here is a picture of Blood Angels Captain Vlad Tempest.  Man, he needs some cleanup, and highlights. Or better lighting. His arms and weapons are from the new Tactical Kit, with a Sanguinary Guard Death Mask, Vanguard Veteran legs, and the Commander kit's torso/backpack. I'll post some more pictures of stuff, but the only new kit I picked up was the Tactical Squad, and those are only primed.
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May 9, 2015 22:29
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is he crying?
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May 9, 2015 22:30
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OhDearGodNo posted:is he crying? Crying BLOOD. It's molded onto the helmet. Also here is a link to "Bloody Tears" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxHgrQSaXkg ThNextGreenLantern fucked around with this message at 22:39 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 22:36
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So Eldar still have no Assault Vehicles, right? So Banshees are still going to be standing around for a turn once they disembark before they can charge?
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May 9, 2015 22:42
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JerryLee posted:I just realized I've not seen anyone in these threads actually doing any of the new Space Wolf or Blood Angel stuff. Usually whenever a new GW release hits, no matter how reprehensible the price or hosed up the rules (in either the useless or broken directions of hosed up) there's someone who will buy the heck out of the new poo poo and post about it. But I can't remember anyone who posted their brand new SW or BA minis. From a BA perspective apart from a couple of HQ models and the updated terminator/tactical squad there was not too much to rush out and buy. What the new codex did was take the spread of units through the force org and push them into the elites and heavy slots. For playing a standard CAD I have a lot of stuff competing for the same slots and also, a number of builds I was planning to do that I now can't (all jump, death company horde and my personal favourite, nine, although you could push it to eleven, dreadnoughts). I cannot speak for new players but as an established BA player if I get shiny new units it is likely to push out one that I have already spent time on rather than open up interesting options. I have just ploughed on with my current army but I accept that it is 5th orientated rather than 7th. I also have a small child so time is limited. I moaned about the new codex at the time so I won't bore everyone with rehashing it. It just doesn't have the character that the old one did for me.
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May 9, 2015 22:54
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I never really got why they removed charge-from-outflank and charge-from-stationary-transport. I'd be totally down to bring those two back in games. I play Guard primarily, so those would hinder, rather than help me, but in the interest of keeping things strategically viable, I'd allow it. I also never understood why they made charge distances random.
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May 9, 2015 23:27
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ineptmule posted:So Eldar still have no Assault Vehicles, right? So Banshees are still going to be standing around for a turn once they disembark before they can charge? Dark Eldar allies give you assault vehicles. Also, I just realized that the only way to kill a Tantalus with D-Scythes in it (a 530 point unit with an WWP Archon) is to shoot it down. Not exactly the toughest, but it does have a 3+ save with Jink and an absolutely terrifying amount of firepower. If you try to assault it, prepared to get overwatched by the D-Scythes.
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May 9, 2015 23:31
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Oh cool, Banshees piling out of Raiders or Venoms or whatever is a totally rad concept. Nice. I really like these aspect warrior rules. I give zero shits about most of the rest of the Eldar list so I might make a small Aspect force as a fun project.
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May 9, 2015 23:50
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Jack B Nimble posted:So I happened by the games workshop site store the other day and holy crap those prices. My old 2nd/3rd edition 40k troops have ballooned up 850 bucks, I should really do something with these guys. I could probably sell them for four or five hundred with the case I have them (they're badly painted and some of them are damaged/missing bits) but honestly maybe instead I could actually, I don't know, play with the drat things. I know a couple of players on the coast - I'm in Jackson myself so a bit of a drive. However, if you don't mind driving an hour, there's a newish store called Top Tier I think in Hattiesburg that has a fair bit of players. I think they have games going most Saturdays.
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May 10, 2015 00:09
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The Sex Cannon posted:I never really got why they removed charge-from-outflank and charge-from-stationary-transport. I'd be totally down to bring those two back in games. I play Guard primarily, so those would hinder, rather than help me, but in the interest of keeping things strategically viable, I'd allow it. Me neither, it's not even like a Rhino or other stationary transport is that hard to crack, and charging from reserves could be mitigated by just standing out of charge distance as it was. Random charge distance isn't something I hate but I don't love it either. Most charges are pretty safe (the average is a 7 on two dice, after all) but when you make a 10-12 inch charge out of desperation, that's actually a pretty awesome feeling. It sucks when dudes just stumble over their own shoelaces and can't charge the guys that the arms on the models are physically long enough to reach though.
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May 10, 2015 00:42
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Random charge sucks because its TOO random, not cause its random There are lots of ways to still allow random desperate long charges, while still mitigating dumb feel-bad 6" or less failures
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May 10, 2015 00:46
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Moola posted:Random charge sucks because its TOO random, not cause its random I think one of the old ideas people had were that you could either do a 6" charge or go for broke with the 2D6 charge and accept the consequences either way. It feels super gamey, even if it's the only solution I can really think of.
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May 10, 2015 00:52
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Yeah ive used that before when I used to play in 6th Also 1d6 +5 was another neat one I've heard of
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May 10, 2015 00:55
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I've seen "2d6, minimum distance of your Initiative" being used in friendly games. Orks get maximum random as usual and Tyranid swarms get to feel actually a bit dangerous.
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May 10, 2015 00:57
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Banshee's don't really need a transport but if you decide to take one put Jain Zar in the unit, you can reliable first turn charge every single game if they have a open top Raider that they allied purchase, but with out the Raider , they move 6" , run D6 + 6, and when assaulting roll 2D6 + 6 because of Jain Zar's warlord ability. Kind of boss with the War Host bonus of always running 6 , they move 6 " then run 12" for a 18" move with Jain Zar.
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May 10, 2015 00:58
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:Crying BLOOD. It's molded onto the helmet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2PfHWMxaAo Or you could just go with the Smooth McGroove version, who also happens to look like a 'ham(but is not, and is also like, the nicest dude you'll ever meet) and has a wonderful voice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AFqYeXKK3I
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May 10, 2015 01:00
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Hollismason posted:Banshee's don't really need a transport but if you decide to take one put Jain Zar in the unit, you can reliable first turn charge every single game if they have a open top Raider that they allied purchase, but with out the Raider , they move 6" , run D6 + 6, and when assaulting roll 2D6 + 6 because of Jain Zar's warlord ability. You can't run and charge, though it would be sweet if Battle Focus allowed you to run and charge OR run and shoot. Boon fucked around with this message at 01:10 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 01:02
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One idea I had was to allow you to always successfully complete a charge up to 12", but if it's a greater distance than the 2d6, it's a disordered charge. Or actually, I need to look up what a disordered charge actually does since it's never been relevant in any game I've ever played and the penalty might not be enough, but point is you can always make it into CC but if you rolled low you get a penalty that turn. Or maybe the defender gets a bonus to their Overwatch BS if you're charging from more than the 2d6. Something.
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May 10, 2015 01:18
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There's loads of cool ways to rule it that are better than the option GW chose which surprises literally nobody
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May 10, 2015 01:19
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:Crying BLOOD. It's molded onto the helmet. It's because he killed a guy in blood prison.
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May 10, 2015 01:31
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Ghost Hand posted:It's because he killed a guy in blood prison. He wasn't even serving a term, he just hopped in on a jump pack, killed him in the space blood prison yard and left.
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May 10, 2015 01:35
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Boon posted:You can't run and charge, though it would be sweet if Battle Focus allowed you to run and charge OR run and shoot. I wasn't saying they could run + charge, but that with a Raider, they move 6" , Disembark 6" then with Jain Zar get to charge 6 " plus 2D6. I'd say that's a pretty reliable first turn charge, plus their ability to move 18" a turn almost removes the need for a transport with the War Host. Also the fact that Jain Zar's ability works on anything is hilarious. Oh are you using a St D chainsword? Nope Nope Nope.
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May 10, 2015 01:42
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Rulebook Heavily posted:I've seen "2d6, minimum distance of your Initiative" being used in friendly games. Orks get maximum random as usual and Tyranid swarms get to feel actually a bit dangerous. Really digging this, I think it's a great idea. Even Space Marines only get 4" minimum, which is not amazing but means they won't fall over their own feet on an easy charge, which is fairly characterful. I guess it starts to get a bit crazier with Eldar, Nids, and Slaanesh, etc. The Keeper of Secrets is I10, for example, though having that kind of guaranteed range (with fleet too) actually makes it an appealing choice instead of a sorta lame one. As mentioned, Orks don't benefit at all but they have various tools to help them out anyway. Mixed initiative values could even be pretty interesting, like if your front guy fails his charge roll but the wily character behind him is quick enough to make it on his initiative and save the charge. I don't see a lot of reason not to go ahead with this as a house rule, honestly. No one feels good about flubbing a 3" charge. That and bringing back stationary vehicle charges would make me pretty happy.
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May 10, 2015 01:47
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I've never understood why it wasn't just D6 + your initiative.
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May 10, 2015 01:49
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Any hints at all on the rules for the Kataphrons or electro priests yet? I'm going to be a huge sucker and get some to ally to my Skitarii...
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May 10, 2015 01:58
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Moola posted:There's loads of cool ways to rule it that are better than the option GW chose Here comes the poo poo posting and GW bashing again...
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May 10, 2015 02:24
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DJ Dizzy posted:By the way, does anyone know the stats for a plasma culverin? 18" S7 AP2 Assault 3 Gets Hot! It's okay when you're rerolling your 1s (via Preferred Enemy on the warlord, a warlord trait, or being BS6+ thanks to Doctrina) but it's expensive and pretty risky. I've seen it used to good effect, though, and combined with cover-reducing stuff (Omnispex, Auspex, Perfect Timing) it's pretty harsh. Fearless posted:Angron's not garbage. He provides relatively little boost to his legion when on the field (12" fearless radius) but is a complete monster in close combat... and as he kills, he gets nastier. Horus aside, I'd put money on Angron over pretty much any of the primarchs that have rules so far. I think Angron is a cool concept and arguably one of the best primarch models, but he's pretty awful in terms of rules. First up, he's really fragile compared to most of the others: he's only 3+ armor and a 4+ invuln. That means it's pretty easy to drown him in regular attacks and/or mash him up with any kind of power weapon. Second of all, his offensive stats are good, but not so good as to make up for his fragility. He's WS9 and I7, which are big, and S8 with his weapons, so he chops up normal dudes really hard... but so does every other primarch just by virtue of raw stats. So while he's better than, say, Corax or Peturabo at murdering a dozen chumps in a squad, that's not really a good measure of his effectiveness. But the real capstone of suck is that he doesn't really do anything except fight; that's appropriate for him, but with his middling fighting skills it means that he's actually one of the weakest primarchs in most situations. Someone like Peturabo or Vulkhan will tank all of his hits on a 3++/FNP, then swing back and push a bunch of hits through his weak saves (and god forbid they have Concussive or he's basically out of the fight.) That's why I don't really like Angron- he's supposed to be a battle-crazy murder machine, but he only hits marginally harder than 40K Kharne does (who happens to be 240pts cheaper) and certainly isn't survivable enough to make up for it. If he could fight multiple challenges and get his full allotment of attacks in each one? Or he had some kind of "sixes turn into more attacks" thing? Or otherwise had some kind of advantage in melee that the other primarchs were 90% as good as in addition to doing other powerful stuff? He might be a lot better. World Eaters kinda get hosed in 30K, sad to say, because they're one of my favorite legions. Omar al-Bishie posted:What makes assault so bad in this edition and the last? A lot of people overstate how bad assault is off- I mean, Knights, deathstars (including Screamers, Seer Councils, etc), extremely fast assault units (Flesh Hounds, Chaos Spawn, Maulerfiends, Wraiths, and Bikes of all sorts), Knights/Wraithknights, and many other assault units have been defining parts of 6th and 7th edition in many ways. Assault is a very relevant part of the game now, I would argue more relevant than it was in 5th edition when everything was inside transports that you hit on 6s and grenades weren't freely available to most every faction. However, if you look at the above list of strong assault units, two things will jump out at you: they're all very fast and they're all very tough. Hitting power is actually somewhat secondary (though not ignorable) because an assault unit's job first and foremost is not to die before it gets to the enemy. Even if all it does is lock up some shooting units for 2-3 turns, that can often be enough to win a game. So, when people lament the "uselessness" of assault units, they usually are talking about stuff like Rough Riders, Howling Banshees, and other melee units that are supposed to be hard-hitting but not able to take a punch; units like these will usually evaporate to superior firepower (or even just Overwatch) long before they are able to make combat. Overwatch makes survivability important (so you don't get a charge stolen at the last moment) and random charge distance exacerbates this by making any casualties you take even more important and by making even short charges unreliable unless you have Fleet or similar. (You have almost a 10% to fail a 4" charge, for example.) The Sex Cannon posted:I never really got why they removed charge-from-outflank and charge-from-stationary-transport. I'd be totally down to bring those two back in games. I play Guard primarily, so those would hinder, rather than help me, but in the interest of keeping things strategically viable, I'd allow it. Random charge distances were supposed to be a "balancing" factor against premeasuring, so you wouldn't know for certain if you would make a given charge. But that really feels like something that is more applicable to Fantasy than 40K, since shooting ranges aren't random. Not being able to charge from outflank has a certain rationale behind it (the enemy always gets a chance to respond to units before being assaulted), although I don't agree with it. Removing charges from transports was part of their belated nerf of 5th edition, when transports were kings of the world. However, with the addition of Hull Points and many other changes to the game, I feel like it's rather overkill and they should be re-allowed. JerryLee posted:One idea I had was to allow you to always successfully complete a charge up to 12", but if it's a greater distance than the 2d6, it's a disordered charge. Being able to always charge 12" would be CRAZY strong. Units like Wraiths/Bikes/superheavies would be able to automatically catch you from insane distances. Shooting would almost be pointless in that case, since many units would have a threat range of 24" (or even more, in some cases.) TKIY posted:Any hints at all on the rules for the Kataphrons or electro priests yet? Kataphrons we've seen the rules leak for. T7/3+, come with some power fists, form a unit combined with their little controller buddy, have some decent guns they can get. They have three "modes" that you can change with basically a one-turn delay on each. One lets you shoot twice (but you can't move); one gives you... counterattack or something? One was like Rage or Rampage or whatever. Basically, a static shooty one, a "gotta go fast" assault one, and a balanced defensive one. They're not too expensive points-wise, as I recall.
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May 10, 2015 02:38
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Rulebook Heavily posted:I've seen "2d6, minimum distance of your Initiative" being used in friendly games. Orks get maximum random as usual and Tyranid swarms get to feel actually a bit dangerous. This is actually a really cool rule. I dig it.
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May 10, 2015 02:51
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Here's a work in progress shot of Knight Manifest Destiny. Although I'm going to need to pick up a Gatling Cannon on the secondary market to keep him in theme.
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May 10, 2015 02:55
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Holey moley!  Stanyer89 posted:Here comes the poo poo posting and GW bashing again... Hey what's up, making posts like these whenever I post something remotely negative about GW (which I havent done in days) is what turns this thread poo poo btw 
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May 10, 2015 03:01
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It's beautiful 
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May 10, 2015 03:07
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You should turn the shield more into this Hixson posted:It's beautiful
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May 10, 2015 03:22
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Moola posted:You should turn the shield more into this Yes, I like this idea. I should track down some star stencils. And Thanks for your support
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May 10, 2015 03:32
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AbusePuppy posted:Random charge distances were supposed to be a "balancing" factor against premeasuring, so you wouldn't know for certain if you would make a given charge. But that really feels like something that is more applicable to Fantasy than 40K, since shooting ranges aren't random. Agree with this, I like the fact that it encourages risk. I lost a game when I underestimated how far Eldar could assault by an inch. I also had a bad start to a game when I rolled 2 on a 3" charge - cost me a unit of MegaNobz and let a dreadnought maraud around my back field. AbusePuppy posted:Not being able to charge from outflank has a certain rationale behind it (the enemy always gets a chance to respond to units before being assaulted), although I don't agree with it. Removing charges from transports was part of their belated nerf of 5th edition, when transports were kings of the world. However, with the addition of Hull Points and many other changes to the game, I feel like it's rather overkill and they should be re-allowed. Yeah, this rationale is prime A bullshit. Given you can deepstrike or outflank and have full use of your guns without giving the other player a chance to respond makes this excuse moronic. I have had Battlewagons blown up due to deepstriking meltas. I can bubble wrap a unit but bubble wrap only grants cover against shooting. Most guns also have a greater range than the maximum assault range. AbusePuppy posted:However, if you look at the above list of strong assault units, two things will jump out at you: they're all very fast and they're all very tough. Hitting power is actually somewhat secondary (though not ignorable) because an assault unit's job first and foremost is not to die before it gets to the enemy. Yup, one Ork unit I used is a big squad of bikes with a Painboy and Warboss with a lukky stik. Moves 24" a turn with turbo-boost and then gets 3+ cover with a 5+ FNP. Costs too many points and didn't achieve much other than soaking fire but it is fun. I barely play any more but I don't miss the transports from 5th, Landraiders still give me nightmares. It is appropriate because Knights are known for their chivalry which derives from the Old French term chevalerie. Nice call back.
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May 10, 2015 03:43
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Speaking of Knights, since it's near impossible to get a hold of the House Griffith transfers I have started my desperate attempt of free-handing some of the iconography for mine (shoulder and knee).
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May 10, 2015 04:05
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AbusePuppy posted:18" S7 AP2 Assault 3 Gets Hot! That's a caliver, not a culverin.
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May 10, 2015 04:55
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:Here's a work in progress shot of Knight Manifest Destiny. Although I'm going to need to pick up a Gatling Cannon on the secondary market to keep him in theme. Well it looks less ridiculous than the Saints football knight someone made.
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May 10, 2015 05:43
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I'd like to see the Saints Knight, don't guess you got a pic?
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May 10, 2015 05:54
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