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JohnSherman posted:Literally no one has called you a troll. You're getting crass replies because your reasoning is hilariously self-centered. It's purposefully self-centered. I was asking y'all to tell me WHY I should want this thing. A thought experiment does not mean I am a horrible person in real life, or that I don't actually hope that life is better for other people. I realized a long time ago that I use "I" too much, but it's just the way that I think and type. I also realize that is technically self-centered as well, but it's just easier for me and something that I can't completely stop doing, even though it invites personal replies or attacks. I just can't manage to do it otherwise. My OG post was basically - for once, I personally don't agree with Oliver at all. I didn't mean to derail a whole thread and turn it into a D&D hellscape. I still think all my points were valid, and I appreciate the few people who actually replied and didn't just act like they KNOW how the world works and I'm a freaking idiot for believing differently. We are half from completely different societies when it comes to this stuff, and I find the other perspectives interesting.
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May 12, 2015 19:50
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DoggPickle posted:It's purposefully self-centered. I was asking y'all to tell me WHY I should want this thing. You honestly don't see how improving workers' rights in one aspect might lead to improving them in others? But it doesn't immediately benefit you so gently caress it I guess? I don't understand.
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May 12, 2015 19:55
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Could y'all do this, in maybe the forum that's actually about discussing politics and policy?
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May 12, 2015 19:56
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Shageletic posted:Could y'all do this, in maybe the forum that's actually about discussing politics and policy? You're right. How dare we discuss the main political story of a political comedy show in that show's thread.
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May 12, 2015 20:00
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Who would have thought that the most controversial LWT segment on a forum full of single white men would be about women's maternity leave.
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May 12, 2015 20:00
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DoggPickle posted:So tell me - honestly - how does supporting more paid maternity leave actually HELP ME or the planet? Why is it "good"? Why would I want that? I think your answers have been mostly really trite and silly. Why would I vote for something that makes my working life harder? I think your suggestions that NOT doing it is making women have to choose between being moms or working is ridiculous. You can be a mom AND work. Everyone I know does. After the horrifying physical effects have worn off, why the hell should they get to stay home and get paid while the other people in the office (or whatever) cover for their lazy asses? That is in effect, perpetuating the stereotype that women need to stay home with their babies. It's doing the exact opposite of what you're saying. It's keeping moms HOME instead of at work. A growing population in the US is a good thing for the country so that we can replenish the work force. If our work force declines while our out of labor force increases that'll bring economic hardship. Having babies is good for your country loving deal with it poo poo.
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May 12, 2015 20:03
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DoggPickle posted:It's purposefully self-centered. I was asking y'all to tell me WHY I should want this thing. A thought experiment does not mean I am a horrible person in real life, or that I don't actually hope that life is better for other people. I realized a long time ago that I use "I" too much, but it's just the way that I think and type. I also realize that is technically self-centered as well, but it's just easier for me and something that I can't completely stop doing, even though it invites personal replies or attacks. I just can't manage to do it otherwise. I can tell you aren't in a union, so you may or may not be aware of the concept of collective bargaining. A collective bargaining agreement is an agreement that a group of workers make with the owners which makes explicit their rights and privileges. How much they will work for, how many hours they will get and their benefits, just to start. The collective bargaining agreement is collective, it covers the entire union. That means that if they negotiate for the employer to cover birth control in their insurance, it covers everyone, including men. Men might not want that coverage, but it's there for the women. And likewise, the insurance could cover prostrate screenings, which is useless for women. A lot of things about this agreement are components that are useless for individuals. But it makes the workers more empowered as a whole, and much better off than how they would have been otherwise. You might not need maternity leave, but someone else might. And if maternity leave went through, it might create momentum for a reform you might want.
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May 12, 2015 20:03
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How are u posted:Who would have thought that the most controversial LWT segment on a forum full of single white men would be about women's maternity leave. And that the only person seriously arguing against it is a woman. What was your point again?
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May 12, 2015 20:04
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IRQ posted:You honestly don't see how improving workers' rights in one aspect might lead to improving them in others? But it doesn't immediately benefit you so gently caress it I guess? I support workers getting more leave per year, higher minimum wage, and more job security for weird emergencies. I just don't see choosing to have babies as a worker's rights issue. That's just where we differ. If we had universal healthcare, that would be great too. Also go away other dude; I just said I was done. Leave off. It's a comedy show about politics. Some political discussion is bound to happen. I regret being the catalyst, but I don't regret my post. Just let it go.
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May 12, 2015 20:05
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DoggPickle posted:Your anecdotes don't make any reasonable sense. If I got hurt playing sports, I'd have to take paid vacation or unpaid leave at the discretion of my boss, and that's how it SHOULD BE. Just because you type all day in someone's employ doesn't make them responsible for your entire freaking life. I'm sorry about your dad, but a grown man should have enough money saved to make it 0-3 weeks (depending on his leftover vacation) to go without pay. Beyond that, like a major illness - you can try for disability? You're stil talking about this as if it is some incredibly risky, huge, untested societal experiment that might threaten to throw us down some slippery slope where everything might go to poo poo. This is only the case in the U.S. (oh, and Papau New Guinea, I guess), in the rest of the world this is a complete non-issue! Lengthy and paid maternity (and paternity, these days) leave is the norm almost everywhere else, and no-one cares! Sure, your company might have to hire an extra guy or two to keep around to "cover for their lazy asses" while they do it, so I guess your stock holders might loose out on a small percentage of their quarterly profits or something, but come on! There's no risk here, no slippery slope. If the U.S. were willing to try this out, they wouldn't have to experiment with anything. There are dozens and dozens of countries that have been through this a long time ago you can study if you're worried about the effects this might have on society, countries with wildy different political cultures/workplace cultures btw. So I'm sure you can find one or two that aren't completelty foreign to your state or wathever, if you're worried that any one place is so incredibly different from yours that it isn't worth looking at them!
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May 12, 2015 20:07
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JohnSherman posted:You're right. How dare we discuss the main political story of a political comedy show in that show's thread. Because this five page conversation has been so useful, enjoyable, and informative. People in this thread, at least the people really trying to argue, aren't interested in evidence based statements or informative bits of data. Its a total winge-fit.
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May 12, 2015 20:07
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Shageletic posted:Because this five page conversation has been so useful, enjoyable, and informative. People in this thread, at least the people really trying to argue, aren't interested in evidence based statements or informative bits of data. Its a total winge-fit.
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May 12, 2015 20:08
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I think we can all agree that if I wake up with a hangover, or if I can adequately fake a sick voice on a day I'd just rather go the beach, then my job should totally pay me not to go to work. Especially if I'm actually sick and can get a doctor's note, then I should get weeks or however long. But some lady having a kid? Psh. What an entitled whiner wanting to keep their job and get paid. If you can't save up several months salary, what are you doing adding a much smaller monthly expense that probably fits in your budget otherwise?
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May 12, 2015 20:12
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How are u posted:Who would have thought that the most controversial LWT segment on a forum full of single white men would be about women's maternity leave. I mean, I thought that would have been the obvious one. Oh wait that was sarcasm. Oh sorry.
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May 12, 2015 20:13
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Shageletic posted:Because this five page conversation has been so useful, enjoyable, and informative. People in this thread, at least the people really trying to argue, aren't interested in evidence based statements or informative bits of data. Its a total winge-fit. People yelling at the cardboard cutout of a dumbass American whom Irish Joe impersonates is one thing, but no one knows what to do when someone actually starts agreeing.
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May 12, 2015 20:16
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DoggPickle posted:I support workers getting more leave per year, higher minimum wage, and more job security for weird emergencies. I just don't see choosing to have babies as a worker's rights issue. How is it not a worker's rights issue? People, women especially, are being punished for trying to start families. It's something 86% of Americans will choose to do at some point, and yet you act like the people who make that choice are in the minority. Shageletic posted:Because this five page conversation has been so useful, enjoyable, and informative. People in this thread, at least the people really trying to argue, aren't interested in evidence based statements or informative bits of data. Its a total winge-fit. Baronash fucked around with this message at 20:19 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:16
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Shageletic posted:Could y'all do this, in maybe the forum that's actually about discussing politics and policy? I guess we could stick to the mascots... But somehow people seem to get more worked up about actual socio-economic issues. How are u posted:Who would have thought that the most controversial LWT segment on a forum full of single white men would be about women's maternity leave. We still have mothers, sisters, friends who we care about. And some of us have children, not everyone is an autistic sperglord on SA. DoggPickle posted:I support workers getting more leave per year, higher minimum wage, and more job security for weird emergencies. I just don't see choosing to have babies as a worker's rights issue. That's just where we differ. If we had universal healthcare, that would be great too. Also go away other dude; I just said I was done. Leave off. Just out of curiosity, do you support the idea of universal healthcare in America? Offler posted:Lengthy and paid maternity (and paternity, these days) leave is the norm almost everywhere else, and no-one cares! Sure, your company might have to hire an extra guy or two to keep around to "cover for their lazy asses" while they do it, so I guess your stock holders might loose out on a small percentage of their quarterly profits or something, but come on! There are assholes in every country that refuse to hire women in their 20s, even if they're well qualified and perfect for the job because they might get the pregnant virus. The number of those idiots is slowly decreasing in my own country and people seem to be more relaxed about maternity leave, mainly because it doesn't really affect the overall performance of the company.
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May 12, 2015 20:20
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DoggPickle posted:I support workers getting more leave per year, higher minimum wage, and more job security for weird emergencies. I just don't see choosing to have babies as a worker's rights issue. That's just where we differ. If we had universal healthcare, that would be great too. But why isn't that a workers' right? I don't get it. It's a major life event that happens to most people. I get that you don't plan pn having kids so you don't give a gently caress because you have no empathy for parents or something, I don't wants kids either, but when my dad died, I wound up taking off about a week and a half, you'd also argue that that's not ok?
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May 12, 2015 20:21
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IRQ posted:But why isn't that a workers' right? I don't get it. It's a major life event that happens to most people. I get that you don't plan pn having kids so you don't give a gently caress because you have no empathy for parents or something, I don't wants kids either, but when my dad died, I wound up taking off about a week and a half, you'd also argue that that's not ok? You should have saved up enough PTO in your use it or lose it plan for in case your dad died duh.
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May 12, 2015 20:23
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How are u posted:Who would have thought that the most controversial LWT segment on a forum full of single white men would be about women's maternity leave. Single white men and women so repugnant that they'll never keep a dick hard long enough to get pregnant. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2015 20:29
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Really subsidize child care and get at least 1 month paid maternity leave. For the guys we can say that they will not go to jail if they don't pay child support. There both sides get something.
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May 12, 2015 20:30
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Offler posted:You're stil talking about this as if it is some incredibly risky, huge, untested societal experiment that might threaten to throw us down some slippery slope where everything might go to poo poo. This is only the case in the U.S. (oh, and Papau New Guinea, I guess), in the rest of the world this is a complete non-issue! Lengthy and paid maternity (and paternity, these days) leave is the norm almost everywhere else, and no-one cares! Sure, your company might have to hire an extra guy or two to keep around to "cover for their lazy asses" while they do it, so I guess your stock holders might loose out on a small percentage of their quarterly profits or something, but come on! There's no risk here, no slippery slope. If the U.S. were willing to try this out, they wouldn't have to experiment with anything. There are dozens and dozens of countries that have been through this a long time ago you can study if you're worried about the effects this might have on society, countries with wildy different political cultures/workplace cultures btw. So I'm sure you can find one or two that aren't completelty foreign to your state or wathever, if you're worried that any one place is so incredibly different from yours that it isn't worth looking at them! From what I know of my general experience with lots of British friends (maybe you're scandinavian idk), they make about 30% more for the same jobs, and that's excluding exchange rates of course. Their general goods are also a higher price, so in some ways it balances out, but it's still more money. The way our system works here, I'm completely confident that if we added more paid maternity leave, the end effect would be lesser pay for everyone else. In this one case, that's not just self-centered, that's for everyone I know. When Healthcare costs go up, it's the workers who pay for it. When ANY costs go up, it is the workers who pay the price. If you want to reform the entire system from the inside out, that is a noble goal, but not one that will happen in my lifetime, therefore I do not care. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change it. I choose to do what is possible in THIS lifetime and for my friends. (most of which have kids and are doing JUST FINE with the current system). I cannot fix a broken system. The best I can do is hope that people I care about get the best out of what IS possible. That's really vague and weird, but what can you do?
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May 12, 2015 20:31
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DoggPickle posted:I'm sorry about your dad, but a grown man should have enough money saved to make it 0-3 weeks (depending on his leftover vacation) to go without pay. ... Do you hear that? That's your entire argument crumbling with your own words. People are idiots. They don't save up three weeks' pay, they don't put away (enough) for retirement, and you know this. You also know this poo poo isn't getting easier, and telling people who don't like it to move is so hilariously insulated and ignorant I can't believe you didn't delete that mid-post. There is a TV show with multiple seasons called 16 and Pregnant. American mothers need every leg up they can get. DoggPickle posted:The way our system works here, I'm completely confident that if we added more paid maternity leave, the end effect would be lesser pay for everyone else. You should probably question that confidence and actually do a modicum of research.
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May 12, 2015 20:36
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DoggPickle posted:If you want to reform the entire system from the inside out, that is a noble goal, but not one that will happen in my lifetime, therefore I do not care. You're right, gently caress it, everyone let's all go buy Hummers and frack the arctic and just set that poo poo on fire because it'll look badass while we grill up some humpback whale burgers and bald eagle buffalo wings.
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May 12, 2015 20:38
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DoggPickle posted:If you want to reform the entire system from the inside out, that is a noble goal, but not one that will happen in my lifetime, therefore I do not care. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change it. I choose to do what is possible in THIS lifetime and for my friends. (most of which have kids and are doing JUST FINE with the current system). I cannot fix a broken system. The best I can do is hope that people I care about get the best out of what IS possible. That's really vague and weird, but what can you do?
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May 12, 2015 20:43
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If a giant percentage of the population has an issue with something (like saving money), maybe they're not all subhuman scum who deserve what they get. Maybe there's a structural issue. Then again, it could be that around 2008 tons of people suddenly got lazy for reasons unknown.
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May 12, 2015 20:44
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Veskit posted:You should have saved up enough PTO in your use it or lose it plan for in case your dad died duh. PTO, and even unpaid time off, is not a guaranteed benefit. In California for example there is no legal obligation to provide leave of any kind other than FMLA where applicable (and there are employers who will force you to take FML even for short illness). It's only the social norms and competition for employees that keep PTO available to most white collar workers.
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May 12, 2015 20:45
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DoggPickle posted:From what I know of my general experience with lots of British friends (maybe you're scandinavian idk), they make about 30% more for the same jobs, and that's excluding exchange rates of course. Their general goods are also a higher price, so in some ways it balances out, but it's still more money. You do realize that if everyone thought like you did, we'd still have workers living in company towns, getting paid in monopoly money that is only good in the company store, right? Lucky for us that those workers didn't have your defeatist attitude, eh?
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May 12, 2015 20:45
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IRQ posted:You're right, gently caress it, everyone let's all go buy Hummers and frack the arctic and just set that poo poo on fire because it'll look badass while we grill up some humpback whale burgers and bald eagle buffalo wings. Those would be some lovely wings. Eagles are way too muscular.
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May 12, 2015 20:46
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DoggPickle posted:That sounds like a pretty decent system, but then you have a bunch of people who only get 18 months of a job at a time? Who are those people? Fresh out of College or younger people? What do they do when their 18 months is up? And how much of that time is spent teaching this new person how to do the job properly? I completely get what you're saying, and it sounds reasonable until I think about all theses random temporary hires flowing in and out of my office, and the much higher expenses for my employer, which would generally mean that I get paid less. My goodness you are doing an awful lot of unreasonable hand wringing over this. There are all kinds of people that inhabit this world and not all of them have the same desires for employment. There is a need for temp work and there are people who want to fill this need. Simple as that. Anything that can be good for families is good for the country as a whole. You do not exist in a vacuum. Every single day you are benefiting from these kind of systems in some way or another whether you are aware of it or not. The reason everyone is jumping on you is because you are being willfully ignorant.
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May 12, 2015 21:04
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I see people here talking about PTO and vacation time and I get all  because my lovely retail job gives me exactly 29 hours of vacation per year.
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May 12, 2015 21:10
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DoggPickle posted:Someone made a false equivalency about old people. Well those old people payed into Social Security all their lives and would probably have had MORE money in the long-run if they'd just been able to keep it in the first place, but people are idiots- so the government takes a small percentage to make sure they don't all waste it on hookers and blow and end up penniless at 65. Probably a good plan. The fact that it's not funded and maintained correctly and requires a pyramid scheme of more and more babies is irrelevant to the original question. Actually, I was referring to Medicare, but I'm perfectly happy to throw Social Security under the bus as well. Do enlighten me. Why is socialism okay for propping up old relics from the past, but investing in the future by making things easier for new parents and funding schools properly is such an abhorrent concept?
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May 12, 2015 21:19
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IRQ posted:But why isn't that a workers' right? I don't get it. It's a major life event that happens to most people. I get that you don't plan pn having kids so you don't give a gently caress because you have no empathy for parents or something, I don't wants kids either, but when my dad died, I wound up taking off about a week and a half, you'd also argue that that's not ok? Because it's a life choice that you should save up for and plan.It's not a freak accident or a death of another person that you have no control over. A lot of couples buy houses too. Should you get extra pay or leave in order to do that? My dad died while I was at work. I took a half-day off. I already had my own house and if I didn't work, it wasn't getting paid for. My mom died on Christmas, so lucky me, I didn't need to take off work for that one. I did have to sell my car to pay for the funeral expenses and the two extra houses and two extra cars that I suddenly owned 5 days before all the mortgages/payments were due. I can't believe I just wrote that.I think it was the dad death thing. In any case, life kicks you in the teeth inevitably and you make it work, because you have planned for it ahead of time. You have never bought a single soda or any drink in a bar, and you drive the cheapest car you can find and pay a redneck in beer when it breaks, you pack your own lunches, you do favors for friends so they do favors for you and it costs you nothing, you buy used furniture and pick up stuff from the thrift store, you make a week's meals on $8 by making stew or spaghetti, and you sweat all summer and freeze all winter so you can keep those electrical pennies piled up. You get your TV through an antenna, have a 30 year old microwave, and wash your car in the rain, and never miss a day of work or do anything but work loving hard in your whole life. If you haven't, then honestly I really have no sympathy (other that super-freak crazy expensive accidents or medical crap). Do you want to take a vacation to Italy? Then you save up for three years and you save your vacation days and you go. Why is choosing to have a baby any different? In any case, I'm out because I pulled the dead parents card, and I really don't want to read the replies because I will probably lose my poo poo. I think a bunch of you don't know how the world actually works. I'm not some simpleton who doesn't understand Social Security, I just truncated the main points .And in fact, I'm an incredibly happy and fun person who sees beauty and joy in almost everything, every day. This (short) life is all we get, and I would like to play it as fun as I can. If I could have some impact on the future - sure I'd try, but that's impossible, so it is a pointless waste of time. Having babies is the ultimate self-centered thing you could ever do in your life. You're saying "My genes are so AWESOME, there should be MORE of ME!!!  " So yeah, I kinda resent the self-centered comments. Why the hell should I care if you want to make more copies of you? Why is that SACRED? It's the most ego-centric action possible in life!I really like the Show btw. I just disagreed with this one segment. Peace.
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May 12, 2015 21:19
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DoggPickle posted:Because it's a life choice that you should save up for and plan.It's not a freak accident or a death of another person that you have no control over. A lot of couples buy houses too. Should you get extra pay or leave in order to do that? My dad died while I was at work. I took a half-day off. I already had my own house and if I didn't work, it wasn't getting paid for. My mom died on Christmas, so lucky me, I didn't need to take off work for that one. I did have to sell my car to pay for the funeral expenses and the two extra houses and two extra cars that I suddenly owned 5 days before all the mortgages/payments were due. This needs to be done as a dramatic reading asap. Preferably in a girly Fragmaster voice.
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May 12, 2015 21:23
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DoggPickle posted:other that super- babies is the ultimate self-centered thing you could ever do in your life. You're saying "My genes are so AWESOME, there should be MORE of ME!!! You, uh... have issues. I mean... preservation of the species is a loving biological imperative. It's an instinct. Having babies is something humanity needs to do in order to survive. It's not some loving masturbatory, self-glorifying, optional thing.
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May 12, 2015 21:27
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JT Jag posted:Wow. It's also not always intentional. Some times you don't even know you're pregnant for months and then suddenly the news gets dropped on you and that's this whole thing you have to deal with. Life is funny that way.
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May 12, 2015 21:30
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Burkion posted:It's also not always intentional.
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May 12, 2015 21:31
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DoggPickle posted:Because it's a life choice that you should save up for and plan.It's not a freak accident or a death of another person that you have no control over. A lot of couples buy houses too. Should you get extra pay or leave in order to do that? My dad died while I was at work. I took a half-day off. I already had my own house and if I didn't work, it wasn't getting paid for. My mom died on Christmas, so lucky me, I didn't need to take off work for that one. I did have to sell my car to pay for the funeral expenses and the two extra houses and two extra cars that I suddenly owned 5 days before all the mortgages/payments were due. No one deserves to get kicked in the teeth. And when that happens, it's nice if there is something in your life that you can rely on. Other than that, I think you need some counselling. With the American health care system you can't probably afford it, so here is my other suggestion: move to Europe.
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May 12, 2015 21:42
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DoggPickle posted:Having babies is the ultimate self-centered thing you could ever do in your life. You're saying "My genes are so AWESOME, there should be MORE of ME!!! You've got some issues. Yikes.
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May 12, 2015 21:43
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DoggPickle posted:Because it's a life choice that you should save up for and plan.It's not a freak accident or a death of another person that you have no control over. A lot of couples buy houses too. Should you get extra pay or leave in order to do that? My dad died while I was at work. I took a half-day off. I already had my own house and if I didn't work, it wasn't getting paid for. My mom died on Christmas, so lucky me, I didn't need to take off work for that one. I did have to sell my car to pay for the funeral expenses and the two extra houses and two extra cars that I suddenly owned 5 days before all the mortgages/payments were due. I was trying to be civil and stuff but the only appropriate response at this point is ~*ffffffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttttttttttttttttt*~
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May 12, 2015 22:07
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